AyostoLeon
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Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:02 pm

The US has charged Snowden with theft of government property, unauthorised communication of national defence information and wilful communication of classified communications intelligence to an unauthorised person. The latter two alleged offences are part of the US Espionage Act.

As far as we know Snowden is holed up in a hotel in Hong Kong. While there is an extradition treaty between Hong Kong and the US, how likely is it that Snowden will be extradited to face trial?

As far as I understand it, Hong Kong law does not allow for an immediate arrest and handover but requires an equivalent crime under Hong Kong laws to be levied before any decision can be made. So, for example, a charge of theft could readily find an equivalence in Hong Kong, the extradition treaty between the US and the latter does not mention unauthorised communication or wilful communication of classified communications.

It might be argued in court that "theft of state secrets" might find an equivalence in a general charge of "theft", the other two offences do not and would be open to challenge.

Under Hong Kong's extradition system, a request first goes through diplomatic channels to the government, who decides whether to issue an "authority to proceed". If granted, a magistrate issues a formal warrant for the arrest of Snowden. Snowden could still apply for political asylum in Hong Kong, arguing he would face torture back home. Article six of the treaty states extradition should be refused for "an offence of a political character".

Even if a magistrate were prepared to hear a case for extradition and decide to grant it, the decision could still be vetoed by the Chinese government. Whether they would decide to accede to a request or deny it might be subject to other political considerations.

Could Snowden become another Assange? A person that nobody really wants but is not prepared to give up for other reasons?
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AeroWesty
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:13 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Thread starter):
how likely is it that Snowden will be extradited to face trial?

Little. His worst case scenario, unless he really screws things up for himself, will be to end up somewhat like how Guy Burgess did.
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AyostoLeon
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
will be to end up somewhat like how Guy Burgess did.

That is a depressing future and I wonder how far Snowden considered it.

A further question, while there are obvious differences between the interests of China and the US, there has also been closer co-operation in a number of fields. We see US companies allowing production under licence of various commodities and while US debt to China is not the greatest proportion of total debt, China has no real interest in seeing the US economy go down the "plug hole". Is there any room for accommodation and, if so, what might the price be? Speculative, I realise, but interesting to discuss in terms of future relations between two very important powers.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:25 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 2):
We see US companies allowing production under licence of various commodities and while US debt to China is not the greatest proportion of total debt, China has no real interest in seeing the US economy go down the "plug hole". Is there any room for accommodation and, if so, what might the price be? Speculative, I realise, but interesting to discuss in terms of future relations between two very important powers.

What?
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AyostoLeon
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:32 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
What?

How far do you, or others think that economic and political factors may influence the outcome?

We know that the US and China do not see eye to eye on every issue but that does not mean that they do not or can not work together when it suits their mutual interests.
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:40 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 4):
How far do you, or others think that economic and political factors may influence the outcome?

Very, very little unless the U.S. captures someone of equal importance to the Chinese to use as a trade. The Chinese then might be interested in arresting Snowden in order to exchange him, but I'll bet any deal he would make with them would include an agreement not to be treated as a pawn. There are plenty of others.
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AyostoLeon
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:46 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
There are plenty of others.

It is true that the Chinese have extradited a number of people to the US in the past. That certainly gives them a means of encouraging Snowden to reveal as much as he knows or face possible extradition. It may come down to how much the Chinese already knew/suspected and how much new information they think he may possess.
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CPH-R
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:37 pm

Depends on where he's hiding. He may have left Hong Kong for another location, although as I understand it, he won't go to Iceland until he's guaranteed asylum. Once there, he definantly won't be extradited, and the lovely folks at WikiLeaks have already spent some of their donations on hiring a private jet for him, so he's probably just waiting for the call.

But then again, he's supposedly a hardcore libertarian and Hong Kong does rank highly on various Freedom indexes.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 4):
How far do you, or others think that economic and political factors may influence the outcome?

Not very far, given that the legal system in Hong Kong is separate from that of R.O.C. And as I understand it, there's two circumstances that have to be met before he can be extradited: One is that there has to be an equal crime under Hong Kong law, and the other - and that's the tricky one - is that the charges are not political in nature. Any lawyer he retains to fight his extradiction will have a field day with that one.
 
Flighty
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:09 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 7):
One is that there has to be an equal crime under Hong Kong law, and the other - and that's the tricky one - is that the charges are not political in nature. Any lawyer he retains to fight his extradiction will have a field day with that one.

Ironically, the USA probably insisted on the "political in nature" clause so China could not demand extradition of dissidents back from the USA! Now it bites us.

Given that he revealed crimes, and total contempt for the law from his superiors, I don't see how he could be legally expected to ask THEIR permission. That's what whistleblowing is all about. You don't obey your manager, because he/she is doing something wrong, something that offends either the public or the law. Here, it was certainly both. Snowden could either (a) unlawfully participate with his employer or (b) break the law to blow the whistle. He had no innocent option -- you can't just leave after you witness a crime.

Guys like him realize "if I don't stand up, who will?" He calculated correctly AFAIK. If he didn't take those steps, we'd be waiting until another guy like him did so.
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 7):
the legal system in Hong Kong is separate from that of R.O.C.

This is where the laws overlap, I understand it correctly. The laws of Hong Kong are recognised as being separate to those of China but only so far. In some areas there is a conflict and the laws of China prevail. So, in this instance, a magistrate in China may approve an extradition or rule that there is no legal impediment but the Chinese Government may still block such a move. This may be in line with countries in the EU , for example, that allow courts to rule on the legality of permitting extradition but can not force a government to proceed with one, allowing the responsible minister to make the final decision. The ruling may be whether an extradition is allowable rather than whether it be enforced.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
You don't obey your manager, because he/she is doing something wrong, something that offends either the public or the law. Here, it was certainly both.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
That's what whistleblowing is all about.

This will always be a grey area. It puts the beliefs and conscience of an individual against those of the state. In some states there is protection, not so much from prosecution but a provision in law of a defence. Some might like to rely on trust to believe that the courts would uphold that defence. Others may be less certain.

It does pose a problem for those who witness what they believe to be unlawful or illegal acts yet be worried about the consequences of revealing those acts. It does not require any paranoia to realise that if you fail to convince a court you could spend a long time in bed at breakfast at the tax payers' expense.
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Klaus
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:46 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Given that he revealed crimes, and total contempt for the law from his superiors,

That's actually not exactly true as far as I'm aware, and that is his biggest problem.

His superiors didn't violate the law – these spying programs are properly covered by the letter of decisions made by the respective legislative chambers in accordance with the respective governments, meaning they are practically laws. Strictly formally, these odious programs are likely on safe ground.

Snowden made a more difficult judgment call: He decided to blow the whistle about his superiors blatantly violating the spirit of the US constitution and of universal human rights.

Short of the US Supreme Court there may be no court even capable of finding his actions justifiable, and even that would be a far cry from being willing to actually judge that way.

He is quite screwed as far as the US justice system is concerned, and he knew that from the start – his primary protection is likely that if the US (or now Britain) racked up the pressure on him, he might retaliate with even worse revelations which he has likely prepared to pop automatically under certain circumstances. It's not too hard if you know how – and that he certainly does.

This is a standoff – and the best he can hope for is some sort of truce in exile, unfortunately. I hope for his sake that public attention will continue to afford him a certain amount of protection.

Thus far, he seems to deserve this protection.
 
Flighty
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:19 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 9):
This will always be a grey area.

Snowden calculated that both he and the NSA were in a grey area. What the NSA did isn't very legal. What Snowden did wasn't legal either, but he had no alternative that was within the law. It's grey, like you say.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
He decided to blow the whistle about his superiors blatantly violating the spirit of the US constitution and of universal human rights.

I think it is more than that. Any criminal can align themselves with some "principle" they see in the Constitution. That's not anything special.

Snowden really did uncover military activity that separated from the rule of law itself. And I would say it looked very illegal. But the legality was never established in the American way -- open litigation & discussion up to the Supreme Court. This was intentional. Measures were taken to prevent the judicial branch from ever reaching into the program.

They knew it was illegal -- but as long as it's protected by secrecy, anything -- massacring people by race, whatever -- can be considered "legal" in this farcical sense.
 
Klaus
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:49 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
Snowden really did uncover military activity that separated from the rule of law itself. And I would say it looked very illegal. But the legality was never established in the American way -- open litigation & discussion up to the Supreme Court. This was intentional. Measures were taken to prevent the judicial branch from ever reaching into the program.

No, there is the (secret) FISA court which formally satisfy the required judicial oversight and the whole thing is formally (and again secretly) supervised by the elected members of the respective Congress committees. I don't see any i's undotted or t's uncrossed – formally.

The formal mechanics are in place, and it is very much the "american way" to have such secret programs which wouldn't stand up to public scrutiny (not that this was an exclusively american thing).

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
They knew it was illegal -- but as long as it's protected by secrecy, anything -- massacring people by race, whatever -- can be considered "legal" in this farcical sense.

No, they ensured that it was legal! That's the whole thing!

It's up to the higher courts (likely only the USSC) to tear the formal legality of these programs to pieces on grounds of blatant violation of the spirit of the constitution (although governments have usually enjoyed quite a bit of leeway of doing that as far as it remained secret).

The bigger threat by now, however, is the political ground under these programs eroding likely even in the USA.

Even the conservative faction in the EU parliament is now (after the socialist and green factions) turning against US demands for ever-increasing access to european information, and the currently negotiated transatlantic agreements is getting unlikely to pass any more in its present form.

That Britain utterly without any inhibition whatsoever diverts any and all information passing through transatlantic links going through their territory will have its own repercussions. (This particular post will likely be flagged by lower-grade filters in exactly these british facilities for referring to Snowden, before also likely being sidelined (but still stored!) for being part of the current global news wave.    )

None of that will help Snowden directly, but the appetite for his extradition may be tempered by a sh*tstorm at home gaining momentum.
 
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:57 am

The Hong Kong government has said it will not interfere with the matters at all, and it is all in the hands of the justice system. That of course means that an extradition request could take years to get anywhere.

The Chinese government has also stated that they will pretty much stand back and watch the show. I'm pretty sure the irony of the situation isn't lost on them. They might change their stance sometime in the future, especially if the US starts accusing China of cyber spying again. If they do, chances are it will be in a dissimulated fashion anyway.
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CPH-R
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:31 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 13):
The Hong Kong government has said it will not interfere with the matters at all, and it is all in the hands of the justice system. That of course means that an extradition request could take years to get anywhere.

Given that Snowden is currently on an SU flight to Moscow (and from there, it's probably onto the WikiLeaks jet to Iceland), Hong Kong is no longer relevant anyway. It's probably safe to say that any chance of him facing justice is next to none, unless he wants to play the martyr card...

Edit: Indeed, WikiLeaks have tweeted that one of their legal advisors is accompanying him. Next stop Iceland.

[Edited 2013-06-23 02:47:27]
 
finnishway
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:19 am

Some sources say he is going to Iceland, Ecuador, Cuba or Venezuela.

I don't support him, but why would he go to Iceland? Iceland and USA are allies and they have a good relationship. I don't think Iceland would protect him at all.

I don't think USA has much to do if he goes to Cuba, but at least there is a place for traitor like him in Southern Cuba.

I don't think USA will give up. They will capture him if they want to even if it takes decades.
 
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:20 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 14):

SU213 and a G550. Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go.  
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
kaitak
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:27 am

If Snowden is eventually extradited to the US, presumably a lot of new information and claims will come into the public domain; how will the US Govt deal with this; presumably they would not attempt to conduct the trial secretly?

It strikes me that a trial would bring a lot of new information into the public domain which the USG would not want to have revealed and therefore, it might be within its interests not to press aggressively for ES's extradition. The flipside is that as long as he is free, he can continue to reveal further information.

As far as the US government is concerned - and criminal law in relation to secret programs, is there any dividing line between revealing the existence of the programme and revealing certain facts; i.e. to reveal that the program exists is sufficient to have charges brought against him, but if he then reveals content, then that's another matter - but is there evidence that he did the latter?
 
CPH-R
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:39 am

Quoting finnishway (Reply 15):
I don't support him, but why would he go to Iceland? Iceland and USA are allies and they have a good relationship. I don't think Iceland would protect him at all.

Iceland have very strong laws in support of whistleblowers. Whether Snowden qualifies as one will be up to the lawyers to fight over. And don't forget that WikiLeaks are based there too, despite the number of classified US documents they've been releasing for the past couple of years.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 17):
It strikes me that a trial would bring a lot of new information into the public domain which the USG would not want to have revealed and therefore, it might be within its interests not to press aggressively for ES's extradition. The flipside is that as long as he is free, he can continue to reveal further information.

For what it's worth, if they manage to bring him into custody (and that's a big one, I doubt they ever will), it will at least stop the numerous claims Snowden has been making. He's probably given Greenwald all the documents he could get his hands on, so they'll keep flowing, but at the moment it's the undocumented claims that are doing the most damage (such as Snowden's claim that he could access emails, facebook, phone calls etc. in real time, that the US is listening to every phonecall ever made anywhere in the world, etc.).
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:44 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 17):

The US Government already charged him under seal. I.e. a secret court proceeding.

It is not working. I am so ashamed of Obama.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
CPH-R
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:50 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 19):
The US Government already charged him under seal. I.e. a secret court proceeding.

Court documents are filed under seal all the time. It's usually the case when it involves information that aren't supposed to be shared with the public, such as the very documents and information Snowden is charged with releasing.
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:56 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 20):

Thank you for educating everyone else who didn't know that, as if I didn't. It's all public now anyway.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
finnishway
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:06 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 18):
celand have very strong laws in support of whistleblowers. Whether Snowden qualifies as one will be up to the lawyers to fight over. And don't forget that WikiLeaks are based there too, despite the number of classified US documents they've been releasing for the past couple of years.

I just think that Iceland would protect Snowden. It is much easier for USA to follow him in Iceland than in South America. USA can cooperate with Icelandic authorities and follow every move he makes.

If USA wants him, they will get him in a way or another. Of course his movements will be followed and if he ever decides to go back to USA there will probably be people waiting to capture him.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:54 pm

Jeepers, the media is swarming everyone coming through the arrivals door at SVO. I guess I lived in L.A. for too long. Anytime those jokers got in my way I'd just yell at them. "Get outta my way!"

I wonder if Snowden will be shown out the back door bypassing the mess out front, or may just stay in the transit lounge for an onward flight?
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CPH-R
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:58 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 23):
I wonder if Snowden will be shown out the back door bypassing the mess out front, or may just stay in the transit lounge for an onward flight?

Given that the WikiLeaks Travel Office has apparently secured onward connections to CCS via HAV, he's in for a long wait if he chooses to stay in transit. The HAV flight doesn't leave until 2 pm tomorrow Moscow time.

Edit: Sounds like he could be pulling an Assange and spend the night at the Ecuadorean embassy. According to the BBC there's a car from the Ecuadorean embassy waiting at the terminal.

[Edited 2013-06-23 07:01:30]
 
ltbewr
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:01 pm

It appears that Snowden is on the run to asylum in Venezuela, on Aeroflot airlines, with a stop in Moscow to change planes for one to Havana, Cuba, then on to Venezuela.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...he-run-again-leaves-hong-kong?lite

Apparently the HK government couldn't get further information, including if the USA was doing illegal spying in HK (and perhaps as to the PRC) from the USA to justify HK to be able to bring charges under their laws to detain him for extradition proceedings. This also gets rid of a 'hot potato' that could create hassles with trade and financial services for HK/PRC. I suspect we have a very weak and largely unenforceable extradition treaties with Venezuela.

I wonder if further charges could be brought against Snowden for an unauthorized entry into Cuba and for being a fugitive of justice. I bet the CIA will be watching his every move, especially if he ends up in Venezuela and may use illegal ways to remove him from Venezuela and bring him to the USA to face criminal proceeding.
 
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OA260
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:17 pm

Sky News reported that Aeroflot had confirmed that a ticket in his name was in their systems. Im surprised that they would give out such information.
 
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legacyins
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:33 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 26):
Im surprised that they would give out such information.

Nothing what a few hundred/thousand Rubles would not take care of from a curious reporter.  
 
finnishway
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:11 pm

I understand he doesn't want to go to prison, but he knew what would happen if he betrays his country. Now he escapes like a coward. Most likely he would have to go to prison in USA, but now he is like a fugitive who will be followed and he can't live a normal life when he knows that he could be captured the next day.

How long sentence would he get? I don't know, but escaping is like a life sentence for him. He may not be behind bars, but he will have the feeling that somebody is following him.
 
AR385
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:39 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 14):
Given that Snowden is currently on an SU flight to Moscow (and from there, it's probably onto the WikiLeaks jet to Iceland),

He´s on his way to HAV and from there to CCS.

Anybody here thinks the US might try to intercept the plane as they did with the Egyptair flight carrying the Achille Lauro terrorists? Just an idea, and I think they won´t do it, but they do have the capability don´t they?

So. Will the US take any measures against Caracas once Snowden gets there? I know the oil is very important, so will Snowden be perfectly safe in Venezuela and the entire thing be swept down the carpet?
 
CPH-R
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:43 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 28):
How long sentence would he get? I don't know, but escaping is like a life sentence for him. He may not be behind bars, but he will have the feeling that somebody is following him.

He's been charged with Theft of Government Property, Unauthorized Communication of National Defense Information, and Willful Communication of Classified Communications Intelligence Information to an Unauthorized Person. Each of those charges carries a maximum prison sentence of 10 years, so 30 years maximum.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:46 pm

Point made on CNN just now, the State Dept. cancelled Snowden's passport last week, which would severely limit his mobility, unless another country would issue him one, or a country intentionally ignores the alert that his passport has been cancelled. Where to deport him if it came to that, also becomes a problem. Does he get deported to the U.S., or back to where Snowden arrived from, if they'd have him back?

So for all we know at the moment, Snowden is in stateless limbo sitting in an international transfer lounge at SVO or in some type of detention facility.
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finnishway
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 29):
Anybody here thinks the US might try to intercept the plane as they did with the Egyptair flight carrying the Achille Lauro terrorists? Just an idea, and I think they won´t do it, but they do have the capability don´t they?

There is always fighter jets ready to escort planes and force them to land if necessary.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 29):
So. Will the US take any measures against Caracas once Snowden gets there? I know the oil is very important, so will Snowden be perfectly safe in Venezuela and the entire thing be swept down the carpet?

I doubt Venezuela would agree to do what USA wants. Will he be safe in Venezuela? Of course not, because everything he does will probably be followed until he is captured. USA has time to wait and if he does a mistake they will use it to capture him.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 31):
Does he get deported to the U.S., or back to where Snowden arrived from, if they'd have him back?

I think there are planes ready to take him to a place where no passports is needed.

[Edited 2013-06-23 09:50:50]

[Edited 2013-06-23 09:52:01]
 
AR385
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:51 pm

The Ambassador to Russia from Ecuador has met with Snowden and he has requested political asylum. Confirmed now by the Minister of Foreign Affairs in Ecuador.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:52 pm

https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/statuses/348841761684197378

Asylum request confirmed by Ecuador.
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Moose135
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:19 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 30):
He's been charged with Theft of Government Property, Unauthorized Communication of National Defense Information, and Willful Communication of Classified Communications Intelligence Information to an Unauthorized Person. Each of those charges carries a maximum prison sentence of 10 years, so 30 years maximum.

Those three were probably just to get the ball rolling. If he ever sees the inside of a US courtroom, I'm sure there will be additional charges, plus multiple counts of each of these three. He would be lucky to face 30 years in prison.
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Flighty
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:16 pm

I think he's foolish to be moving out of China. He's obviously panicking now.

His original instinct, to remain in China, was the right answer.
 
AR385
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:21 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 36):
His original instinct, to remain in China, was the right answer.

Except China decided it was no longer advisable for them to keep him, and politely (probably) told him to go find someplace else.
 
Flighty
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:49 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 37):
Except China decided it was no longer advisable for them to keep him, and politely (probably) told him to go find someplace else.

Oddly, Wikileaks caused the current rocky Ecuador / US relations (no ambassadors on either side currently). This happened in response to leaked diplomatic cables accusing the Ecuador president of knowingly tolerating police corruption.

Maybe Wikileaks then suggested to Snowden he should head for Ecuador. This fits a pattern of egomania on the part of Julian Assange. He's involved. He's probably using Snowden for his own purposes, if he can.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:52 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 15):
I don't support him, but why would he go to Iceland? Iceland and USA are allies and they have a good relationship. I don't think Iceland would protect him at all.

France and the UK are allies of the USA and have a good relationship. France will extradite people to the USA, after lengthy procedures, with guarantees, and not if the accused is French (remember Roman Polanski ?). The UK will let the CIA land on their military bases to take the accused to Guantanamo.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 15):
I don't think USA will give up. They will capture him if they want to even if it takes decades.

I don't see how that could have a positive effect for the US. It seems far better to let him go into hiding and never hear of him again.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 31):
Point made on CNN just now, the State Dept. cancelled Snowden's passport last week, which would severely limit his mobility, unless another country would issue him one, or a country intentionally ignores the alert that his passport has been cancelled. Where to deport him if it came to that, also becomes a problem. Does he get deported to the U.S., or back to where Snowden arrived from, if they'd have him back?

So for all we know at the moment, Snowden is in stateless limbo sitting in an international transfer lounge at SVO or in some type of detention facility.

I don't see how the passport matters, it certainly doesn't change his citizenship, and refugees enter countries without any ID every day, it's SOP in fact.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
AR385
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
Maybe Wikileaks then suggested to Snowden he should head for Ecuador. This fits a pattern of egomania on the part of Julian Assange.

The US threatened Hong Kong to start asking its residents for VISAS if they would not hand him to US authorities. This, among other "diplomatic" entreaties made China evaluate its position and decide Snowden wasn´t worth it. Essentially, he´s not a worthy battle.

What you say still applies though, probably Wikileaks made the suggestion after they realized China had taken the "eviction" route.
 
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:29 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
I don't see how that could have a positive effect for the US. It seems far better to let him go into hiding and never hear of him again.

That is not the case. I don't think that he would stop leaking stuff if he is free and USA wants to stop him doing that.
If USA lets him go free it sends message to everybody that there is no consequences for this kind of activity.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
I don't see how the passport matters

Maybe not in South America, but in the West it matters.

[Edited 2013-06-23 13:29:53]

[Edited 2013-06-23 13:30:03]

[Edited 2013-06-23 13:30:35]

[Edited 2013-06-23 13:31:07]
 
CPH-R
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 41):
That is not the case. I don't think that he would stop leaking stuff if he is free and USA wants to stop him doing that.

The only thing he is currently leaking is unsubstantiated statements about what the US does to various countries. Given that some of Snowden's previous statements has been found wanting, it's interesting to see the world media uncritically spread those claims.

Whatever documents he may have brought out from Booz Allen is currently in the hands of Glenn Greenwald, who I assume is busy inventing context for them.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:58 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 41):
That is not the case. I don't think that he would stop leaking stuff if he is free and USA wants to stop him doing that.
If USA lets him go free it sends message to everybody that there is no consequences for this kind of activity.

There's morally nothing wrong with exposing evil activities of US government. If United States went and forcefully captured him on land of any sovereign nation that would show US government in really bad light, thus it's way better for them to just leave him be and let the time pass.

In any case I believe whole world should never ever be playground for the US government, a place where they can do whatever they want without consequences. If we allow US government to do whatever they want and capture great men like Snowden because they simply did the right thing and fought against the evil then I could see some day US drones patrolling around the world, killing anyone who disagrees with US policies.

I'm glad China will continue rising, world needs a big power to oppose US government and stop them from playing world police and destroying countless of lives in the process.

I think as long as United States keeps protecting certain Cuban exile terrorists in Miami, guilty of several bombings, including one Cubana passenger jet, other countries should not send any people no matter what crimes they are wanted for back to United States for conviction.

[Edited 2013-06-23 14:01:41]
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NBGSkyGod
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:09 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 41):
Maybe not in South America, but in the West it matters.

A quote from our own Imigration page: "Refugee status or asylum may be granted to people who have been persecuted or fear they will be persecuted on account of race, religion, nationality, and/or membership in a particular social group or political opinion."

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/usc...4d77d73210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD

Nowhere on the site does it specify a requirement to have a Visa, all it says is that you must request it at the port of entry, ie: customs at the airport. For high profile cases such as Mr. Snowden it is a formality, since the proper authorities know he's coming. When it comes to political asylum and refugee status, if verifiable citizenship and travel documents were a requirement, no one would ever make it to another county under that status.

The same thing happened to that Chinese professor who requested asylum in the US last year.
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Pellegrine
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:31 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
The US threatened Hong Kong to start asking its residents for VISAS if they would not hand him to US authorities.

They've threatened everyone along the route so far. Including the Russians. Now you know Putin could care less about that.   
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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Aesma
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:55 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
This, among other "diplomatic" entreaties made China evaluate its position and decide Snowden wasn´t worth it. Essentially, he´s not a worthy battle.

Which tells us he has already spilled his guts or the Chinese consider he has nothing interesting to offer.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 41):
That is not the case. I don't think that he would stop leaking stuff if he is free and USA wants to stop him doing that.
If USA lets him go free it sends message to everybody that there is no consequences for this kind of activity.

I don't believe he has much to leak he hasn't already leaked. And preventing him from traveling to his home country and many other countries is not "letting him go free". It's not like he has murdered someone and there is a grieving family wanting justice either. This is a political hot potato, if the US actually had him embarrassment would ensue. Just like nobody in the west wanted Saddam or Qaddafi to live long enough to tell tales. He's better alive and hidden than in custody or assassinated (making him a martyr).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
AR385
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:00 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 45):
They've threatened everyone along the route so far. Including the Russians. Now you know Putin could care less about that.

Really? Interesting. I only read about the threat being specifically directed at Hong Kong. Putin would probably havea good laugh with that, but I did not know Russia was on the VISA waiver program.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 46):
Which tells us he has already spilled his guts or the Chinese consider he has nothing interesting to offer.

Exactly. I put it in a more subtle way. Why Ecuador wants to get into these messes is one of those mysteries only Latin America seems capable of producing. It´s not like Correa is a champion of the Free Press.
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:53 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):

Exactly. I put it in a more subtle way. Why Ecuador wants to get into these messes is one of those mysteries only Latin America seems capable of producing. It´s not like Correa is a champion of the Free Press.


It is a way for a small country to stick it to the big bad 'Murica.

Now, that being said I hope he makes it, although I have a feeling there is going to be an Aeroflot plane sitting on the ground in New England tomorrow afternoon.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Will Snowden Be Extradited To Face Trial?

Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:02 am

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 48):
I have a feeling there is going to be an Aeroflot plane sitting on the ground in New England tomorrow afternoon.

If the U.S. hadn't gone out of its way in the past decade or so to get on everyone's bad side, perhaps Hong Kong, China, Russia and other countries wouldn't be so willing to blow our requests for assistance off, like they're doing. It's as if they're all saying they've no respect for us and have nothing to lose.
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