JoePatroni707
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Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:05 am

As the trial starts today, testing Florida's "stand your ground law" George Zimmerman needs to prove that un armed Trayvon Martin, threatened him to the point that deadly force was needed. No witnesses, just Zimmermans word. If he is found not guilty will we see riots like when the police accused of beating Rodney King? Will Zimmerman be found guilty of a lesser charge?
 
rfields5421
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:14 am

Since we have not heard actual factual evidence, and most of us will never hear it,

we will never know if Zimmerman is quilty or not.

Only the jury's decision will give us and indication.

And certainly anything we hear on the news channels will be polished, massaged and tweaked to appeal to segments of the audience of that channel. So what we hear from them will be a lot closer to fiction than fact.

One thing

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
George Zimmerman needs to prove that un armed Trayvon Martin, threatened him to the point that deadly force was needed.

George Zimmerman, or rather Zimmerman's lawyers, do not need to prove a thing. The LAW says Zimmerman is presumed to be innocent unless the Prosecution proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman acted unlawfully when shooting Martin.

Also, an actual threat is not required in most states, only actions which could appear to be a threat to a reasonable person.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:20 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
As the trial starts today, testing Florida's "stand your ground law"

The law is not on trial, Zimmerman is. The stand-your-ground law is quite secure.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
No witnesses, just Zimmermans word.

Actually, there were numerous witnesses.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
If he is found not guilty will we see riots like when the police accused of beating Rodney King?

Not on that level. There might be a little brouhaha in some lower-class neighborhoods in Florida (no matter what the verdict is), but most everyone else has settled down.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 1):
Since we have not heard actual factual evidence, and most of us will never hear it,

Seeing as the trial is televised, we'll here exactly what the jury hears.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 1):
George Zimmerman, or rather Zimmerman's lawyers, do not need to prove a thing. The LAW says Zimmerman is presumed to be innocent unless the Prosecution proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman acted unlawfully when shooting Martin.

Actually, I believe this falls under an affirmative defense. Zimmerman has to show that he was not doing anything illegal prior to being attacked, and that he (as a reasonable person) felt he was in danger of death or grievous bodily harm.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
sfbdude
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:32 am

Riots could possibly happen but I don't see them happening in Sanford.

With the jury that's been selected, its pretty hard to tell how this could turn out considering they're all women.
 
kpitrrat
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:34 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
George Zimmerman needs to prove that un armed Trayvon Martin, threatened him to the point that deadly force was needed.

Forgive me as I am not from Florida, every state has their own quirks. But, in order to utilize the "stand your ground law" is the burden of proof on the defense to prove that the force was necessary?

Or is the burden on the prosecution to show that Zimmernan was not threatened?

I only ask because the Beyond a Reasonable Doubt facet of pronouncing someone guilty is not easy to overcome, thats what I believe got Anthony off on the murder charge; sad, but its the law. Witness testimony will be extremely important.

Edit: I just saw rfields post. Still I will leave the question up because, as I said, all states are different.

[Edited 2013-06-24 20:36:04]
 
seb146
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:27 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Will Zimmerman be found guilty of a lesser charge?

He will be found innocent. NRA will hire lawyers to make sure of it. They already made sure of it by getting the 911 tapes of Trayvon screaming for help thrown out. Zimmerman was told to stand down. He did not. Yet, he will walk free. And not have to pay Trayvon's family one dime. Mark my words.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:17 am

Everybody who just has shot somebody in a dark alley in the middle of the night will point to the Zimmerman trial in order to avoid prison. The jury has to think about the consequences.

There is a little quirk in this whole situation:

a) Zimmerman says his life was in danger. So, he should be lucky to receive a prison sentence instead of losing his own life during that night.

b) Zimmerman says he wasn't in danger. So he should accept hefty prison sentence for murdering Trayvon Martin.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 1):

I believe - but I'm not completely sure - that your reasoning is flawed. I know that innocence is presumed. The prosecution claims that Martin was unlawfully killed (and thinks that a crime has happened), so the prosecutor has to prove Zimmerman's guilt. Here, we talk about the act of the crime.

But Zimmerman's mental processes (deciding whether Martin is a danger to his life or not) can't be a crime - because there is no law that says it would be a crime to assume danger to your life - and so, in the real "crime scene", Zimmerman's mind, the assumption of innocence cannot kick in. Zimmerman has to prove that his life was in danger. That's the pivotal point of the whole trial.

Otherwise, the "stand your ground laws" would entitle everybody to kill somebody else in a dark alley in the middle of the night when no witnesses are around.

The goverment has not only a duty to keep innocents out of the prisons, but it has an equal or an even more important duty: Protecting the lives of innocents. Otherwise, the "stand your ground laws" put the burden of proof on those that are dead and cannot defend themselves in court.


David

[Edited 2013-06-25 01:26:34]
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rfields5421
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:40 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 2):
Seeing as the trial is televised, we'll here exactly what the jury hears.

Yes, however we will hear a lot of information the jury will not hear. Almost everything we hear will be 'analyzed' by the television commentators. What we see and hear from a televised trial is not what the jury sees and hears. It is not the information the jury must use to decide guilty or not guilty.

And the other part of my views - will any of us watch the ENTIRE live coverage? What will those interested in the case miss?

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
Otherwise, the "stand your ground laws" put the burden of proof on those that are dead and cannot defend themselves in court.

That is exactly what the framers of such laws want to occur - at least here in Texas. I do not see anything to say that the intent of the Florida legislature was different.

Quoting kpitrrat (Reply 4):
thats what I believe got Anthony off on the murder charge

The jurors in the Anthony case said the problem with the prosecution case was that the state was unable to prove that the child was murdered. Unable to prove the explicit action, intentional or unintentional, caused the death of the little girl. Nor was the prosecution able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Casey Anthony was the only person who could have caused her death.

At least in this case, proving that Martin died of a bullet wound will not be difficult or questioned. Nor will proving Zimmerman was the person who fired the gun.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:27 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
At least in this case, proving that Martin died of a bullet wound will not be difficult or questioned. Nor will proving Zimmerman was the person who fired the gun.

As I've read, Zimmerman was under way in his car when he suspected Martin of wrongdoing and called the police. At this very moment, he could have driven away, seeing the danger. If you felt safe and secure, you wouldn't call the police.

But he decided to leave his car and approach Martin, and a fight ensued. I can't see how the "stand your ground" principle would work in this case. As soon as he perceived the danger, he should have stayed in his car and used his "stand your ground" rights *there*.


David
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Ken777
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 3):
its pretty hard to tell how this could turn out considering they're all women.

If all of those women are mothers then there is the leverage of "what if it was your son who was shot to death by this guy/"

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
Yet, he will walk free. And not have to pay Trayvon's family one dime.

OJ walked free from the criminal trial and got hit with an $8 Million judgement from a civil jury, Two different legal systems, with the burden of proof far lower on the civil side,.

As a side note, say OJ's prosecutor on TV the other night (CNN I believe) and she looked pretty good.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
As I've read, Zimmerman was under way in his car when he suspected Martin of wrongdoing and called the police. At this very moment, he could have driven away, seeing the danger. If you felt safe and secure, you wouldn't call the police.

IIRC it has been argued that he called the police to cover his ass in case a fight ensued (not saying in case he shot somebody). Indeed he certainly didn't listen to what the operator was saying. Don't forget he was on a "watch".
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Maverick623
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:32 pm

Yet another thread where people feel entitled to their own facts.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
They already made sure of it by getting the 911 tapes of Trayvon screaming for help thrown out.

Oh please. There's no way to tell who was screaming based on the 911 tape.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
Zimmerman was told to stand down.

He was not. You must have missed the part where the 911 operator testified, under oath, that they are not allowed to give orders, and that he indeed did not give an order to stand down.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
If you felt safe and secure, you wouldn't call the police.

Um, you call the police when you suspect a crime is being committed, or when there's a car accident on a public road (as required by law).

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):

But he decided to leave his car and approach Martin, and a fight ensued. I can't see how the "stand your ground" principle would work in this case.

Because he was walking back towards his car, when Martin approached him.
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:57 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
If all of those women are mothers then there is the leverage of "what if it was your son who was shot to death by this guy/"

At the same time, women can also be pretty hardcore on juries.

For example, a lawyer speaking to us in my Federal Court Practice class last semester said that in rape cases he's had jury consultants tell him that a big, macho guy is a horrible juror to have for the prosecution because they, on a jury, want to protect women. A woman, on the other hand, especially one in the 35-55 range, will be cold-blooded about things and use the thinking that the victim was at fault.

Now, that could all be wrong, but I am just throwing that out there as something I was told. *shrug*
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:46 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
He will be found innocent. NRA will hire lawyers to make sure of it. They already made sure of it by getting the 911 tapes of Trayvon screaming for help thrown out. Zimmerman was told to stand down. He did not. Yet, he will walk free. And not have to pay Trayvon's family one dime. Mark my words.

Ironically, in fighting "far right bias" you're embodying far left bias. Not every decision you disagree with is because of the evil right's fault. I know you get mad when a judge rules and the right screams that the judge is a liberal activist judge, so why do you do the same in reverse?

You aren't on the jury, none of us are, so we have to tread carefully and not make ignorant statements. If he walks and you don't think he should, attack the stand your ground law. The jury may very well agree that he met those requirements... even if you hate the law, do you want him in jail just because you think the law is BS?

Always keep an eye out for corruption, but don't chase boogey men either. It's perfectly plausible for him to walk and there NOT be any "NRA lobbyist influence dollars" or whatever
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flymia
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:34 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
If he is found not guilty will we see riots like when the police accused of beating Rodney King

Maybe. Spoke with some Miami-Dade police officers and the Miami-Dade Police Dept is preparing for possible riots. Talking to them they think there is a fairly good chance Zimmer is acquitted. I agree.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
NRA will hire lawyers to make sure of it.

He has already hired his lawyers. What are you talking about?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
They already made sure of it by getting the 911 tapes of Trayvon screaming for help thrown out.

You do know the JUDGE is the one who decides what gets in and what gets out. Is the judge part of the NRA scheme?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
Zimmerman was told to stand down. He did not.

911 operators have zero authority. No one needs to listen to them. So he was not told to "stand down." Where do people get this stuff.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
But he decided to leave his car and approach Martin, and a fight ensued. I can't see how the "stand your ground" principle would work in this case. As soon as he perceived the danger, he should have stayed in his car and used his "stand your ground" rights *there*.

Pretty sure his story is he was going back to his car and Martin attacked him.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
If all of those women are mothers then there is the leverage of "what if it was your son who was shot to death by this guy/"

That might be what the prosecutors had in mind but the defense attorneys also picked this jury sure there are good reasons for both sides. But the prosecution would never say, "what if it was your son who was shot to death by this guy." Easy grounds for a mistrial.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 12):
A woman, on the other hand, especially one in the 35-55 range, will be cold-blooded about things and use the thinking that the victim was at fault.

I would put that range a bit higher 45+ But I agree, especially when it pertains to young women who were abused sexually.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
Everybody who just has shot somebody in a dark alley in the middle of the night will point to the Zimmerman trial in order to avoid prison. The jury has to think about the consequences.

That could not be anymore wrong. That is the absolute last thing the jury needs to think about and if any juror starts thinking about that they need to tell the judge and recuse themselves from the jury.

If any of the lawyers mentioned something like that. To think about the consequences of other cases it would be an easy mistrial and they would have to start all over again. Jurors should and need to only worry about the one case in front of them and absolutely nothing else. Legal precedent is what the lawyers and judges can worry about later.

Also that is not how the criminal system works. You don't point to other trials to show your case. You can for things such as evidence motions and what not but when it comes to if you have done it or not it is the evidence of your case and nothing else.

I see it 50/50 from what I have heard which I will say is almost nothing, but lets just assume I know all the correct facts I have doubt so I am letting him go. I have a feeling the doubt will be there and he will be acquitted.
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WestJet747
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:10 am

Zimmerman must be regretting his choice of representation after the opening statements yesterday. I facepalmed pretty hard when Don West decided he wanted to be a stand-up comedian at a murder trial. If you're going to attempt a joke, at least make sure it's funny...

Video of the "joke": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LRSJGFoXEY

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
Yet another thread where people feel entitled to their own facts.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 11):
Because he was walking back towards his car, when Martin approached him.

You couldn't even go an entire post without doing the exact thing you accuse other people of doing!

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
911 operators have zero authority. No one needs to listen to them. So he was not told to "stand down." Where do people get this stuff.
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.


Source: http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

The operators don't have any authority, and he definitely didn't say the exact words "stand down", but it was certainly communicated to Zimmerman that it's not a good idea to follow the kid, and he in fact ignored that suggestion. Nobody in this thread has said that the 911 operator said the exact words of "stand down", so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
But the prosecution would never say, "what if it was your son who was shot to death by this guy." Easy grounds for a mistrial.

   At the very least the jury would be instructed to disregard the comment and that it be stricken.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
I know you get mad when a judge rules and the right screams that the judge is a liberal activist judge, so why do you do the same in reverse?

  
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L-188
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
He will be found innocent. NRA will hire lawyers to make sure of it

Dude the NRA is not paying for his lawyers. To make that comment just makes you look like a raving left wing lunatic. And frankly is suggest that we can't have a reasonable conversation with you.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
They already made sure of it by getting the 911 tapes of Trayvon screaming for help thrown out.

The tapes got thrown out because the "experts" couldn't figure out what was on them. Or if the quality was even good enough for them to make informed testimony.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
Yes, however we will hear a lot of information the jury will not hear. Almost everything we hear will be 'analyzed' by the television commentators.



Its been that since day one. Remember the media would only show photos of the dead punk back when he was 13-14-15. You know before that puberty growth spurt that everyone hits. The public perception of him would be a lot different if they had used the photos that where found of him smoking pot, flashing gang signs that where on his facebook page.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Talking to them they think there is a fairly good chance Zimmer is acquitted. I agree.

I hope your right, but the prosecutor and the Martin family have been trying to throw this case ever since that night. Emotionally I can't blame them but their case is based on emotion not fact.
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Maverick623
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:45 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
Nobody in this thread has said that the 911 operator said the exact words of "stand down"

Might want to go and reread:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
Zimmerman was told to stand down.
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WestJet747
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:03 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
the dead punk

Speaking ill of the dead: a sign of a person who lacks any decency.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
The public perception of him would be a lot different if they had used the photos that where found of him smoking pot, flashing gang signs that where on his facebook page.

Stop watching MSNBC then. I've seen numerous news outlets from both Canada and the US showing a wide range of pictures, from him as a young teen, to his football pictures, to Facebook pictures of him taken only weeks before his death.

Also, wouldn't the public perception also be skewed if they only showed the unsavoury pictures of Martin? Hell, you'll find several dozen pictures of me on Facebook where I'm drunk beyond reason, which of course would make it appear I'm some "punk", but in reality I'm a pretty upstanding citizen. There has to be a fair balance.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
but their case is based on emotion not fact

That's not how this case (or law in general) works. Both sides, the prosecution and the defense, have access to the same "facts". How they interpret and present the facts (read: evidence) are what make a case. The prosecution isn't going up there and basing their arguments on "I'm sad that Trayvon is dead, so this man should go to jail"...no, it's "We have exhibits X, Y, and Z which we believe to suggest that the accused is guilty of murder because [enter justification here] and the evidence supports that".

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 17):
Might want to go and reread:

Your reading comprehension is struggling tonight, Maverick. I clearly said that nobody suggested that the operator said those exact words. If that's what seb was saying, he would have put quotations around it. That's how the English language still works, right?

If I told someone to "shut up", could you not accurately say that I told someone to be quiet? (note the lack of quotation marks)
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flymia
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:41 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
The operators don't have any authority, and he definitely didn't say the exact words "stand down", but it was certainly communicated to Zimmerman that it's not a good idea to follow the kid, and he in fact ignored that suggestion. Nobody in this thread has said that the 911 operator said the exact words of "stand down", so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

I agree but please read the quote I quoted below. The words "stand down" are there.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
Zimmerman was told to stand down. He did not. Yet, he will walk free.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
Your reading comprehension is struggling tonight, Maverick. I clearly said that nobody suggested that the operator said those exact words. If that's what seb was saying, he would have put quotations around it. That's how the English language still works, right?

After saying "Zimmerman was told to stand down" Seb said, "He did not." IMO from reading that statement from Seb he thinks he should have stood down, as if it was an order he did not follow. Just a difference of opinion in how we comprehended Seb's comments.

Whether that is what Seb meant or not I have heard many times from other people on Anet, the Media and in conversation about Zimmerman not listening to the operator. That is clearly irrelevant in that case.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):
If you're going to attempt a joke, at least make sure it's funny...

Number one rule when using a joke in court. Can't believe he did that.
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mke717spotter
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:40 am

Anyone else notice this guy has put on some serious weight since the whole ordeal started?
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Aesma
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:25 pm

He probably figured looking fit and buff wouldn't help his case. Or prison just did that to him.

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
Whether that is what Seb meant or not I have heard many times from other people on Anet, the Media and in conversation about Zimmerman not listening to the operator. That is clearly irrelevant in that case.

What the exact words were is clearly irrelevant, as was said not obeying an operator is not illegal. The conversation is still very relevant to understand what happened, what was the mindset of the accused, etc.
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flymia
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
Or prison just did that to him.

He has not been in prison. He has been out on bond for the majority of the time before trial.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
He probably figured looking fit and buff wouldn't help his case

It was probably the stress.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
What the exact words were is clearly irrelevant, as was said not obeying an operator is not illegal. The conversation is still very relevant to understand what happened, what was the mindset of the accused, etc.

I agree but I have often heard people how he did not "listen to police" and did not followed "orders" this is simply not the case. There was no police, and no orders.
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sfbdude
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:29 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 15):

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok

Source: http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

The operators don't have any authority, and he definitely didn't say the exact words "stand down", but it was certainly communicated to Zimmerman that it's not a good idea to follow the kid, and he in fact ignored that suggestion. Nobody in this thread has said that the 911 operator said the exact words of "stand down", so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

In fairness you left the part out where Zimmerman acknowledges the dispatcher's suggestion, so you can't say for sure whether or not he ignored it unless of course you were there. As far as I know, that hasn't been established unless I missed it somewhere..

[Edited 2013-06-26 09:30:29]
 
WestJet747
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
The words "stand down" are there.

Not disagreeing with you, just pointing out that many people are taking it too literally and chastising others for not being accurate enough.

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):
Just a difference of opinion in how we comprehended Seb's comments.

Agreed. We'll leave it at that.

Quoting flymia (Reply 22):
It was probably the stress.

Probably right. He may be a stress-eater which cause him to gain so much weight. Or perhaps he hasn't been exercising because he doesn't want to leave his house and face the media or people on the street who have already played judge-and-jury in their mind.

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 23):
In fairness you left the part out where Zimmerman acknowledges the dispatcher's suggestion, so you can't say for sure whether or not he ignored it unless of course you were there.

My apologies...it wasn't intentionally left out.

But since you have raised the point, I think that his response of "Ok" actually works against him. It can (and will) be used by the prosecution to illustrate that it was suggested he not approach or pursue the boy (which I believe he hadn't yet at this point of the call) but he did indeed ignore the 911 operator's suggestion. It's not going to break the case, but it sure isn't in Zimmerman's favour.
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sfbdude
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:50 pm

Possibly. According to the "star witness" (Trayvon's friend) during her phone interview and deposition, it made it seem like Trayvon was the one who actually approached George aka the "cracker" lol

Trayvon: Why are you following me?
Geroge: What are you talking about?

Does that sound like George is the one who approached Trayvon?

[Edited 2013-06-26 14:51:07]

[Edited 2013-06-26 14:51:33]
 
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:49 pm

A month or so there was a news story that George Zimmerman has put on over 100lb due to the stress he is under from his current situation.
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seb146
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:45 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
Dude the NRA is not paying for his lawyers.

Yet. Florida is a "Stand Your Ground" state. NRA will be sure those laws are upheld. At all costs.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
The tapes got thrown out because the "experts" couldn't figure out what was on them. Or if the quality was even good enough for them to make informed testimony.

Except experts said they were a young guy and not an older man. Say two experts.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...orge-zimmermans-2-experts-say?lite

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 23):
Zimmerman acknowledges the dispatcher's suggestion

They told him to stand down. Even if he said "yeah, okay" or "yeah, whatever" they still have on tape he was told to stand down. He shot and killed a kid. After he was told to stand down.
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Maverick623
Posts: 4636
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:12 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 27):
Yet. Florida is a "Stand Your Ground" state. NRA will be sure those laws are upheld. At all costs.

Oh give me a break. The SYG law is not on trial here, George Zimmerman is.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 27):
Except experts said they were a young guy and not an older man. Say two experts.

Except other experts said it was either Zimmerman or (more likely) both yelling.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...tin-zimmerman-attorney-mark-o-mara

Quoting seb146 (Reply 27):

They told him to stand down.

Come off it. Even the 911 dispatcher testified that he said no such thing.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
flymia
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 27):
Yet. Florida is a "Stand Your Ground" state. NRA will be sure those laws are upheld. At all costs.

You just sound silly right now. Again can you please tell me what the NRA has to do with it? Are they going to bribe the jury and judge? Maybe they will bribe the prosecutors to mess up the case?
Zimmerman is on trial. This case will have zero impact on the future of the law. The law is here to stay. It is safe. So what the NRA has to do with this I don't know. There have been many other cases similar to the Martin case in Florida before and there will be more after. Only difference is this case makes for a good news story so instead of just people in Orlando hearing about it the whole nation knows.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 24):

Read below, you see. what I mean.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 27):
They told him to stand down. Even if he said "yeah, okay" or "yeah, whatever" they still have on tape he was told to stand down. He shot and killed a kid. After he was told to stand down.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Mir
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:24 pm

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 25):
Trayvon: Why are you following me?
Geroge: What are you talking about?

Does that sound like George is the one who approached Trayvon?

Does following count as approaching? You could make the argument that it does.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
sfbdude
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:11 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
Does following count as approaching? You could make the argument that it does.

-Mir

No because according to the girlfriend, Trayvon turned around and went to where George was to confront him. Or at least according to her conversation with him since she wasn't there.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 27):
They told him to stand down. Even if he said "yeah, okay" or "yeah, whatever" they still have on tape he was told to stand down. He shot and killed a kid. After he was told to stand down.

I'm not sure where you got that from but, read the above. People argue that Trayvon was scared. Scared enough to turn around and confront George instead of going home which he could easily have done.
 
Mir
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 31):
No because according to the girlfriend, Trayvon turned around and went to where George was to confront him.

But had Zimmerman not followed him, there would have been no reason to turn around. So it could be argued that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
cmf
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 31):
People argue that Trayvon was scared. Scared enough to turn around and confront George instead of going home which he could easily have done.

Why should Martin gone home but not Zimmerman?
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L-188
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:36 pm

I hear the girlfriend is putting up a great show. For me is the best is when the defense asked her to read the letter that she sent Martins parents describing what she heard on the phone and couldn't because she said she can't read cursive writing.

I am starting to feel better about zimmermans chances. Saysa hellos a lot about the Florida education system too.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 32):
But had Zimmerman not followed him, there would have been no reason to turn around. So it could be argued that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.

Although I've gotten caught up in the "who started it" argument, it really is invalid. See below:

Quoting cmf (Reply 33):
Why should Martin gone home but not Zimmerman?

This is the tricky bit: neither of them, before the first punch was thrown, had a legal obligation to leave the area. Both people (as far as we know) were legally entitled to be where they were.

What it will come down to is who threw the first punch. All the physical evidence points to Martin, but it's possible Zimmerman could have made a grab for him and missed.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
sfbdude
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:39 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 32):
But had Zimmerman not followed him, there would have been no reason to turn around. So it could be argued that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation.

-Mir

I can also say had Trayvon went home, there would of been no fight.

Quoting cmf (Reply 33):
Why should Martin gone home but not Zimmerman?

Because he was scared of the person who was following him. Only makes sense to go home when your right there.
 
Mir
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 36):
Quoting cmf (Reply 33):
Why should Martin gone home but not Zimmerman?

Because he was scared of the person who was following him. Only makes sense to go home when your right there.

That runs entirely contrary to the principle underlying the "stand your ground" law - you're not obligated to retreat when you feel threatened, you can confront the threat.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:00 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 27):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 16):
Dude the NRA is not paying for his lawyers.

Yet. Florida is a "Stand Your Ground" state. NRA will be sure those laws are upheld. At all costs.

Can you provide even the smallest shred of evidence for these ridiculous claims? Or can you even explain how the NRA will do this besides simply throwing out vague words like lobbyists/money/influence/magic? And as pointed out, Zimmerman can walk or Zimmerman can get the death penalty and the Stand Your Ground law will NOT change a single bit

And for the record, I am a supporter of self defense but I do see instances where laws are so vague they can be abused. I won't pretend to be on the jury like so many other posters here, so I won't make too strong of judgments, but I believe it's plausible that Zimmerman was in the wrong and would still walk. Think the law needs some cleaning up

I find it interesting that, as usual, the people against guns/self defense assume he's guilty and the people for guns/self defense think he's innocent. Focus on the law, people, you may find that he followed the law even if you hate the law or vice versa, but that is our justice system. If you hate this law, call for it's reform/repeal but don't judge Zimmerman off something other than the law just because you hate it
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cmf
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:44 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 35):
What it will come down to is who threw the first punch. All the physical evidence points to Martin, but it's possible Zimmerman could have made a grab for him and missed.

I'm not aware that the first punch matters in stand your ground. How does it come into play? My understanding of stand your ground is quite the opposite. That if you fear for your life then throwing the first punch (or even shooting first) isn't held against you.

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 36):
Because he was scared of the person who was following him. Only makes sense to go home when your right there.

Want sense did it make for Zimmerman to get out of his car and follow Martin on foot?

I agree with you that leaving the area is the smart thing if you feel scared but stand your ground is turning that upside down. It promotes taking the fight right there - stand your ground.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:23 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 39):
Want sense did it make for Zimmerman to get out of his car and follow Martin on foot?

If somebody left his car, and approached me, I would have shot him under this very Stand Your Ground rule. 

So, Zimmerman really had been lucky. If Zimmerman would have been shot dead, how would his parents think about the Stand Your Ground rule?

So SYG is a strange concept because it can only be used after the fact - in court - when one of the two is dead. "Look, I have applied the SYG rules. I'm still a free man." I have the feeling that SYG gives aggressive people a reason to act that way, but it is not a guideline on how to solve a conflict when one happens.


David

[Edited 2013-06-27 15:33:49]
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
sfbdude
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:42 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
That runs entirely contrary to the principle underlying the "stand your ground" law - you're not obligated to retreat when you feel threatened, you can confront the threat.

-Mir

So they both felt each other to be a possible threat to one another. Both were in the right according to the law. Case closed? That must be why they were trying to bring race into this.

Quoting cmf (Reply 39):
Want sense did it make for Zimmerman to get out of his car and follow Martin on foot?

I agree with you that leaving the area is the smart thing if you feel scared but stand your ground is turning that upside down. It promotes taking the fight right there - stand your ground.

If I'm not mistaken, I thought I heard them say he did that to update the dispatcher and/or cop were he to ever talk to one. No point in sending a cop out there if you don't know who you're looking for or where he is.
 
sfbdude
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:44 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 40):
If somebody left his car, and approached me, I would have shot him under this very Stand Your Ground rule.

So, Zimmerman really had been lucky. If Zimmerman would have been shot dead, how would his parents think about the Stand Your Ground rule?

So SYG is a strange concept because it can only be used after the fact - in court - when one of the two is dead. "Look, I have applied the SYG rules. I'm still a free man." I have the feeling that SYG gives aggressive people a reason to act that way, but it is not a guideline on how to solve a conflict when one happens.


David

[Edited 2013-06-27 15:33:49]

I believe that's already been done unfortunately in other cases.

[Edited 2013-06-27 15:45:12]
 
Mir
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:00 pm

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 41):
So they both felt each other to be a possible threat to one another. Both were in the right according to the law. Case closed?

Except that Zimmerman made the first move by deciding to follow Martin. And that move wasn't based on a threat that he perceived to himself (or at least not one that you could rationally justify).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Okie
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:19 pm

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 41):
That must be why they were trying to bring race into this.

Zimmerman identifies himself as hispanic in which he is, all the racial overtones ring hollow.
The re-editing of the 911 tapes by the White house propaganda network is the only reason that there is racial overtones here, they just forgot to do diligence to discover that Zimmerman was hispanic.

I have not paid a serious amount of attention to the trial but I will add that the jury is there and will see things completely differently than the perception of the media perception. There were no physical witnesses to the event which is a good indication that the prosecution probably has a pretty weak case and some circumstantial evidence. It would be hard to establish without reasonable doubt who started the altercation, but I am not on the jury.

Okie
 
flymia
Posts: 6810
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:12 am

Quoting okie (Reply 44):
discover that Zimmerman was hispanic.
Quoting okie (Reply 44):
Zimmerman identifies himself as hispanic in which he is, all the racial overtones ring hollow.

I think the racism thing is ridiculous also. Honestly if this was a black man killing a black teenager, a black man killing a white teenager, a white man killing a white teenage or a Hispanic man killing a white teenager this story would not come close to coming on CNN.

However does him being Hispanic mean he cant be racist? I never understood this. Oh it was a black guy who punched the Hispanic guy or vice versa. Why does racism only exist between whites and blacks? And almost always on the media it is only allowed to be racist if it is a white man committing a crime on a black person.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 41):
That must be why they were trying to bring race into this.

Where has race even been mentioned in this thread?

Quoting okie (Reply 44):
Zimmerman identifies himself as hispanic in which he is, all the racial overtones ring hollow.
The re-editing of the 911 tapes by the White house propaganda network is the only reason that there is racial overtones here, they just forgot to do diligence to discover that Zimmerman was hispanic.

I think you're forgetting that the kid he shot was of a different race than him. Racism isn't a white on black/asian/hispanic/arab thing. It's a race on race thing. Therefore a hispanic killing a black person could still be racially motivated. I'm not saying that's the case here, but your logic doesn't seem to hold up.

Quoting flymia (Reply 45):
However does him being Hispanic mean he cant be racist? I never understood this. Oh it was a black guy who punched the Hispanic guy or vice versa. Why does racism only exist between whites and blacks? And almost always on the media it is only allowed to be racist if it is a white man committing a crime on a black person.

Exactly. Too often the media makes it sound like only white people are capable of racism, when really it works in any and every direction.
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rfields5421
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:33 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 46):
Where has race even been mentioned in this thread?

I don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread - but it has certainly been an angle Martin's family and supporters have shouted from the first day. Our President brought it up!!!

Certainly they feel anger and frustration at the death of a relative. And want justice.

But the race card was played early and often in the media.

It is an integral part of the case, and certainly the prosecution will try to show Zimmerman was following and more agressive toward Martin because of his race.
 
flymia
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:09 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 47):
It is an integral part of the case, and certainly the prosecution will try to show Zimmerman was following and more agressive toward Martin because of his race.

I would not be sure about that. That would be going for a home run. It could win the case but it could very well go against them. That is a hard decision to make that I am sure the prosecutors took a lot of time to think about.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 47):
But the race card was played early and often in the media.

It certainly was. As I said if race was never brought up we would have never heard about this case. Even here in Miami where Trayvon is from I did not hear a thing about this case until it became a race issue. That was over a month after he was killed.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 47):
Our President brought it up!!!

And he was an idiot for doing that.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
cmf
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RE: Will George Zimmerman Walk?

Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:24 am

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 41):
If I'm not mistaken, I thought I heard them say he did that to update the dispatcher and/or cop were he to ever talk to one. No point in sending a cop out there if you don't know who you're looking for or where he is.

Why did he need to get out of his car for that? Why couldn't he have taken pictures and followed from his car? Was this outcome better than losing track of him?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.

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