User avatar
DocLightning
Topic Author
Posts: 19586
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:53 am

http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2013/03/12/non-believers/

Quote:
Religious affiliation in the United States is at its lowest point since it began to be tracked in the 1930s, according to analysis of newly released survey data by researchers from the University of California, Berkeley, and Duke University. Last year, one in five Americans claimed they had no religious preference, more than double the number reported in 1990.

As a nonbeliever, it's something that I find heartening. The interesting bit is that the "nones" are larger than every other religious group, including Southern Baptists and Methodists except for Catholics in the USA.

More worrying for churches is that about 33% of 18-24yo's identified themselves as "nones." Thus, the trend is likely to continue.

Why is this? I have a number of theories, mostly having to do with the fact that the things that churches have been preaching have gotten so absurd that it turns people off (especially educated people). Whether it's creationism, an obsession with sex, or gay-bashing, a lot of young people are sick of hearing it and walking out.

This article has some more commentary:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wayne-...losing-its-religion_b_1951650.html

The above article makes the point that not only is gay-bashing partially to blame, but that the actual number of unaffiliated is actually higher than 20%. A lot of people will check off "Catholic" on a form even when they haven't been to Church in 20 years.

As a nonbeliever (I've stopped calling myself an "atheist" ever since "atheists" co-opted it into a quasi-religion), I find this heartening and I'm quite happy to see everyone stop believing. But I also know that won't happen.

The churches, especially the Protestant ones, are going to have to have a little "Come to Jesus" moment as it were. If they are going to win back the hearts of the young and keep the hearts of the old, they need to switch their tune from one of condemnation to one of welcome and acceptance. "You are loved by God and by this church, no matter who or what you are." And they are going to have to show it in deed, not just in words. They are going to have to back out of social issues like contraception and abortion that matter to young people. They are going to have to re-model themselves not as indoctrination centers that control culture and education, but as community organizations that unite people.

Otherwise, they are going to run into a problem as the donation plate runs dry.

What do you think the future holds? I think many churches will not change and that such ultra-conservative institutions as the Southern Baptist Church is doomed to obscurity.

[Edited 2013-07-01 20:54:19]
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 3688
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:50 am

This is a sign that the church has failed to adapt to modern times. Its values and ethics seem to be stuck in the dark ages.

I may be a 'none' as well, but I understand the need for faith and its usefulness in society.
People are getting more educated and the idiosyncrasies and hypocrisies of the values preached are starting to become way too obvious. Their stance on gays for instance, sexual behaviors generally speaking, ultra-conservative family policies, the increased division of churches and religions which all refuse to accept each other while preaching 'tolerance'...

There is a place for religion, but I fear none of the offered options live up to the newer generations.
Not to mention that as religion is (unfortunately) something that is often passed on to next generations by parents imposing their views on impressionable children, the trend will likely amplify itself.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 2509
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:40 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Why is this? I have a number of theories, mostly having to do with the fact that the things that churches have been preaching have gotten so absurd that it turns people off (especially educated people). Whether it's creationism, an obsession with sex, or gay-bashing, a lot of young people are sick of hearing it and walking out.

I think the gay marriage debate with the younger generation plays a big factor. I attended Catholic school. I think in my class of 100 students, maybe 5 didn't support gay marriage. The sex thing doesn't help either, but I don't think sex is as much of an "epidemic" today as it was even 50 years ago. People are just more open about it.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I find this heartening and I'm quite happy to see everyone stop believing. But I also know that won't happen.

Honest question Doc. Why do you find happiness in people not believing in a God or gods? Just trying to pick your brain. I don't think belief in a God makes you a good or bad person. It's how you live your life. But I also do believe in a higher power.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
What do you think the future holds? I think many churches will not change and that such ultra-conservative institutions as the Southern Baptist Church is doomed to obscurity.

I don't think religion itself as an institution is doomed. The Southern Baptist Churches pull an incredible amount of people. But I do agree if they don't become a little more liberal they are going to have some issues. Churches do need to move forward, but they are never with the times.

I think the problem with the 18-24 generation isn't that their eyes are opening or anything of that nature. It's how our minds are wired. Look at someone in that age group. They are always plugged into the world. Whether it be their smartphone, tablet, or PC. Church you have to devote an hour of your life to unplugging from that world. Yes some of the policies are off putting. It isn't "cool" like attending a football game or some sporting event. Church needs energy to attract young people. You can't do that when a 68 year old priest who typed his sermon on a typewriter is telling you that you are wrong in how you live your life. We had a young priest at my old Parish join the ranks. His masses were always filled with young people because he could connect with us and understand life in current day. The old geezers can't do that. Maybe I'm just blind to the future. But I don't think we are going to see churches disappear left and right.
Pat
All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:16 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
More worrying for churches is that about 33% of 18-24yo's identified themselves as "nones." Thus, the trend is likely to continue.

Why is this? I have a number of theories, mostly having to do with the fact that the things that churches have been preaching have gotten so absurd that it turns people off (especially educated people). Whether it's creationism, an obsession with sex, or gay-bashing, a lot of young people are sick of hearing it and walking out.

As one of said young people, I'll say you hit the nail on the head, Doc.

My own personal experience is pretty in line with this. I made the decision in high school (probably around the age 16) to live my life as a non-believer. The timing was not a coincidence though, as this was also around the time I became fascinated with religion. I know that sounds odd, but it was my fascination that lead me to do my research and I came to the following conclusions: 1) I don't need the Bible (or any other holy book) to tell me how to be a good person, 2) religion creates so much harm in the name of what they see as good, and 3) the notion of an all-powerful God (or whichever other supernatural being) is just silly.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
A lot of people will check off "Catholic" on a form even when they haven't been to Church in 20 years.

I know dozens of these people. I find it amusing.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I've stopped calling myself an "atheist" ever since "atheists" co-opted it into a quasi-religion

I still drop the A-word from time to time, but I've started using it much less for that exact reason (we all read about that "Secular Church" out in Calgary...). I prefer to just use the term "non-religious", as "non-believer" sounds rather brash to me, but at the end of the day it's all the same.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
What do you think the future holds? I think many churches will not change and that such ultra-conservative institutions as the Southern Baptist Church is doomed to obscurity.

I hate to say it, but I think you're right. The reason I don't like it is because of the tendency for groups to become more extreme when they are threatened. We really don't need any more Westboro Baptist Churches.

My own prediction is that believers will be in the minority (at least in North America) in my lifetime. Just as obsolete technology will always get dumped for newer, better models, it's inevitable that more and more people will disassociate from religions that are archaic and slow to adapt (if they adapt at all).

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 2):
They are always plugged into the world.

I think that's the point. People our age in 2013 are far more in tune with the world around us than our parents when they were our age. As we "plug in", we see things that never would have been available for our parents to see. Before, we only knew of the good that religion did because that's all we heard in sermon...but with infinite real-time information available at our fingertips, we now get to see the bad that religion can do. I highly doubt that when you unplug for a couple hours on a Sunday morning that the priest is going to tell you about religiously-motivated issues going on in Uganda, Russia, or the Middle East. It's bad for business.
Flying refined.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15205
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:11 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
A lot of people will check off "Catholic" on a form even when they haven't been to Church in 20 years.

I was baptized catholic but obviously no one asked me at the time if I wanted to sign up for a criminal outfit with a predeliction for young boys and three card monte for those that abuse them.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
What do you think the future holds?

The slow disappearance of religion and relegation to the bin of quackery where it belongs.... I think there was a recent study in the last year or two predicting that based on changing tastes and social patterns, religion will largely disappear from the Western world in a couple generations. I'll have to find it...

I think people are also starting to question the unwavering respect religion has commanded forever. If any corporation acted even remotely similar to any of the world's major religions, it would make Enron look like Martha Stewart's whoopsie-daisie. The effect of religion over the centuries, and still today, is so net negative, that the respect and tax free status they receive is an outright insult.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8524
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:24 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Why is this? I have a number of theories, mostly having to do with the fact that the things that churches have been preaching have gotten so absurd that it turns people off (especially educated people). Whether it's creationism, an obsession with sex, or gay-bashing, a lot of young people are sick of hearing it and walking out.

I would say another strong influence is the prevalence of households where both parents work. Important rituals like praying together before eating and such fall by the wayside when kids grow up with a do-it-yourself approach to dinner.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
What do you think the future holds?

This trend definitely intensifies and continues indefinitely, and has a lot of generational effect.

My grandmother did her best to raise three serious Jews, but my grandfather was working all the time and would sleep on Saturdays when she and the kids went to synagogue. Now only one of my dad's siblings treats his faith seriously, but probably only because he married a woman who later became the director of their JCC!

Similarly, my mom's family was raised by two serious Catholics, as I don't think those grandparents have missed a single Sunday in their 58 years of marriage. Much to their dismay, all five of their kids never attend church regularly now.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
The slow disappearance of religion and relegation to the bin of quackery where it belongs.... I think there was a recent study in the last year or two predicting that based on changing tastes and social patterns, religion will largely disappear from the Western world in a couple generations. I'll have to find it...

I think people are also starting to question the unwavering respect religion has commanded forever. If any corporation acted even remotely similar to any of the world's major religions, it would make Enron look like Martha Stewart's whoopsie-daisie.

LOL, precisely this.   
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:30 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
This is a sign that the church has failed to adapt to modern times. Its values and ethics seem to be stuck in the dark ages.

That's why I'm heartened by the signals coming from the Vatican these days. It's a very small step in the right direction.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 2):
Why do you find happiness in people not believing in a God or gods?

Having been brought up with a set of beliefs without them encompassing a deity or formal religion, I'm always fascinated by the love/hate relationship people have with the structures of belief systems. I've always felt that if someone wants to go to a church, synagogue, mosque, or where ever, peace be with them, the choice is theirs, as the country I was born and live in was founded on the principles of both freedom of religion and the freedom from religion.
International Homo of Mystery
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 3688
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:54 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
It's a very small step in the right direction.

Yes, Pope Francis is definitely a breath of fresh air. As a non catholic and atheist, I must say I really like him.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
oly720man
Posts: 5740
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:52 am

I think that within the hearts and minds of most people there is the common sense side to religion, i.e. be nice to other people, don't steal, don't kill, so they don't really need the fantasy world that's been tagged onto it that then constrains them in what they want to do and leads to all sorts of oddball interpretations of the sacred texts.

I don't even want to be a "None". Everything seems to have a label these days and once you have a label you have the baggage of imagined stereotypes that go with the label and then it becomes a binary situation of you're with us or against us, pride of identity or insult. "Atheist! blah, blah, blah..." "Christian! yak yak yak..."

Lots of the problems these days seem to stem from the polar opposites of a highly technical, instant gratification world of gizmos, social media and communication and the very "backward" slow moving, more contemplative, inward looking, be good and in 80 years you'll get your reward, world of religion and the kids don't go for it. The thrills are online and now, not in the miracles and wonders of 2000 years ago that may or may not have happened anyway. But, beware false prophets leading you astray!

An other issue is the fragmentation of society. In our commercial world people are a lot more likely to move away from their family and community for work and this breaks the psychological ties that had families doing things together, like going to church. That's what you did and you didn't want the social stigma of not going to church. Once you're away from that, the grip isn't so strong.


Does the survey have a state-by-state breakdown of religious affiliation? Is the bible belt still the bible belt? Is it stronger or weaker?
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9846
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:16 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
The slow disappearance of religion and relegation to the bin of quackery where it belongs

It's not the slow disappearance of religion it's the slow disappearance of christianity, islam is growing.
 
JJJ
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:42 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
It's not the slow disappearance of religion it's the slow disappearance of christianity, islam is growing.

Give them time to get some education and nice salaries and they'll start going the none route, too.

My kid has a 2nd generation Moroccan on his class whose older siblings booze every bit as much as any local. I don't think they feel any different from the Catholic born, and they will very likely intermarry with a local.

There's the issue of Ghetto-isation on bigger agglomerations (French famous banlieues, Netherlands... to a lesser extent here in Madrid and Barcelona, too) that seem to perpetuate their beliefs and customs for a bit longer, but in the end the easy western middle-class life wins.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9846
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:01 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
My kid has a 2nd generation Moroccan on his class whose older siblings booze every bit as much as any local. I don't think they feel any different from the Catholic born, and they will very likely intermarry with a local.

Pakistanis here in Norway are onto the third generation, they don't intermarry, they drag a cousin out from Pakistan to marry or something similar. To you and I they might not appear much different from a local but it's whats going on inside their heads that different, take the London bombers as an example, born in the UK, grown up in the UK but still crazy as muslim religious nutters underneath.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
Give them time to get some education and nice salaries and they'll start going the none route, too.

By the time that happens you and I will most likely be dead.
 
us330
Posts: 3405
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:39 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
As a nonbeliever (I've stopped calling myself an "atheist" ever since "atheists" co-opted it into a quasi-religion), I find this heartening and I'm quite happy to see everyone stop believing. But I also know that won't happen.

I wonder if American religious institutions might evolve toward a different model: instead of being based on faith, being based on shared community ties or a shared heritage (which is not necessarily a bad thing). Non-Orthodox Jewish synagogues and temples essentially already operate this way.
 
na
Posts: 9128
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:47 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Why is this? I have a number of theories, mostly having to do with the fact that the things that churches have been preaching have gotten so absurd that it turns people off (especially educated people). Whether it's creationism, an obsession with sex, or gay-bashing, a lot of young people are sick of hearing it and walking out.

The most important reason is that the world has so much interesting things to see and do, religion is just falling below the attention line. Be sure, if a massive crisis comes, religions will rise again.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 1):
This is a sign that the church has failed to adapt to modern times. Its values and ethics seem to be stuck in the dark ages.

That is right. But the churches are in a dilemma: what they preach, IS oldfashioned as its from former times. How can you change rules written down by god himself, or Mohammad, or ...

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 2):
I think the gay marriage debate with the younger generation plays a big factor.

I dont think so, its before all a big media campaign, and it´ll die down once its legalised everywhere. Gays are a very small minority with an overproportionally big lobby nowadays.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
It's not the slow disappearance of religion it's the slow disappearance of christianity, islam is growing.

Because Islam is were anti-westerners to group around and the percentage of uneducated people, or people with restricted information and under oppression is much higher. I find that worrying. But:

Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
Give them time to get some education and nice salaries and they'll start going the none route, too.

Exactly. Look at muslims who immigrated to a free society and made some money. The second generation is not much different to westerners.

I do believe in god, someting almighty who is behind this world, whatever that is. I am still a member of the church and will remain so, as I think that the world needs orientation, and the Christian values are the best I can think of (the Christian values, which is not always the same as what the Churches preach). If you take away religion, what rules remain? State rules, laws, and how they can possibly be bent history has shown drastically enough. There is a huge danger in a society of "nones". People who have nothing to loose, nothing to fear but the police are potentially dangerous.
 
JJJ
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:50 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 11):
Pakistanis here in Norway are onto the third generation, they don't intermarry, they drag a cousin out from Pakistan to marry or something similar.

Hence my mention of ghettoes, at least here that's confined to the bigger cities where they can make their communities, on small towns like the one I live in I don't recall seeing a single covered woman (much less a burka) even though there are Moroccan, Algerian, etc. citizens around.

It may be that Maghrebi might possibly more open-minded than rural Pakistani but as you can see in places with decent incomes like Turkey the more educated and affluent, the more atheist you get.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Topic Author
Posts: 19586
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:55 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 12):
being based on shared community ties or a shared heritage (which is not necessarily a bad thing)

This also makes me nervous. "We're together because we share our heritage" sounds fine until you add the necessary counter point: "And if you don't, then you can't be one of us."

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 2):
Why do you find happiness in people not believing in a God or gods? Just trying to pick your brain. I don't think belief in a God makes you a good or bad person. It's how you live your life. But I also do believe in a higher power.

Because belief in a higher power can lead to "charisma." Someone who claims to be plugged into that higher power. And that is a source of a lot of evil. In fact, it has been the root of most (not all) of the evil in Western history.

To have that rejected as simple delusion removes any authority that can be claimed.

As it happens right now, we have seen religious leaders (especially in the Catholic Church) respond to the rise of gay rights with some truly evil and nasty bullying tactics. Take this letter from a priest basically telling a mother to choose between her son and her Church. http://www.truthwinsout.org/wp-conte...loads/2012/10/nienstedt_letter.bmp

The other thing is that it doesn't take a huge leap to conclude that if the good people in your church are believers, then your beliefs must make you a good person. And that's exactly what so many religions have done, especially the Catholic Church, but also Islam. It doesn't matter that you're running brothels and dungeons and killing people in scores, as long as you're Catholic, you're righteous. Similarly, in Bin Laden's lair, we found his porn stash. It leads to horrible hypocrisy.

There are other ways, I submit, to organize communities to come together to do good works without having to invoke a higher power.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
na
Posts: 9128
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:02 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
It doesn't matter that you're running brothels and dungeons and killing people in scores, as long as you're Catholic, you're righteous.

Tell me, when has that ever been said by the Catholic Church, the long gone dark middle ages excluded? Its simply untrue what you are saying.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
net negative

   That's the word of the hour. Religion does plenty good, but in my opinion it doesn't do enough to cover its losses.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 8):
I don't even want to be a "None". Everything seems to have a label these days and once you have a label you have the baggage of imagined stereotypes that go with the label and then it becomes a binary situation of you're with us or against us, pride of identity or insult. "Atheist! blah, blah, blah..." "Christian! yak yak yak..."

What label do you attach to someone who is non-religious? The whole point is that there's nothing to associate to them since they don't prescribe to any belief system. Of course you'll get the odd hardcore Christian who will consider non-believers to be "heathens" or what have you, but that's really their problem since non-believers won't be particularly troubled by it.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
Give them time to get some education and nice salaries and they'll start going the none route, too.

Agreed. Look at the extremists and their supporters. The well-educated ones are quite the minority.

Quoting na (Reply 13):
I dont think so, its before all a big media campaign, and it´ll die down once its legalised everywhere.

You've slightly contradicted yourself. How can something that's not a big factor "die down"? If there's something to die down, surely it must be considerable.

Anyway, I must disagree. As I mentioned in my first post, I am one of said young people, and many of my peers name the equality debate quite high in their reasons for distancing themselves from religion. A reasonable, in-touch youth doesn't want to be linked to a group that actively discriminates against another group that bases their beliefs on their interpretation of 2,000-year old texts.

Although I do agree that as more jurisdictions/countries legalize gay marriage, it won't be as hot a topic.

Quoting na (Reply 13):
There is a huge danger in a society of "nones". People who have nothing to loose, nothing to fear but the police are potentially dangerous.

So because they don't fear an unseen supernatural power, that somehow makes them dangerous? You're going to have to expound on that point a little more before any non-influenced individual is convinced.   
Flying refined.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting na (Reply 13):
If you take away religion, what rules remain? State rules, laws, and how they can possibly be bent history has shown drastically enough. There is a huge danger in a society of "nones". People who have nothing to loose, nothing to fear but the police are potentially dangerous.

That has always been the claim made by monopolistic religions: That exactly they "owned" ethical standards and that not having their specific religion would turn people into unconscientious monsters.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

In actual fact, religious people have turned out to be not any more ethical in their actual behaviours than atheists, if not not actually less so.

Compassion and ethical behaviour are innate traits of human beings. Not always dominant, but that is clearly observable in religious people just as well.

Religions have just co-opted what humanity always had, and in many cases twisted it beyond recognition through dogma and orthodoxy.

When you're an atheist, you yourself have the responsibility to treat others with respect and dignity – and there is no cop-out á la "These people are not members of my own cult, so they deserve to be treated badly!"

Atheists can be horrible people as well, but they don't have the convenient excuses available which are provided by religious hypocrisy.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Because belief in a higher power can lead to "charisma." Someone who claims to be plugged into that higher power. And that is a source of a lot of evil. In fact, it has been the root of most (not all) of the evil in Western history.

That is not really dependent on religion, nor is it automatically evil. Lenin and Hitler were highly charismatic, but also Gandhi or Martin Luther King.

When you have the power to inspire people, your personal responsibility grows proportionally. And you may or may not be capable and willing to meet that responsibility.
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 12):

I wonder if American religious institutions might evolve toward a different model: instead of being based on faith, being based on shared community ties or a shared heritage (which is not necessarily a bad thing).

If that ever happens then churches in America should just shut their doors and give up. Local churches are not meant to be social clubs.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:44 pm

Just to add: The development in Germany is similar. We now have about a third each of (nominal!) catholics, protestants and unaffiliated people (with a few percent of other denominations).

The unaffiliated part has been growing here as well, and even many if not most of the officially registered religious people actually aren't – most just haven't declared their exit from their parents' and grandparents' church yet (which determines whether church tax is deduced from your income).

Religion plays a much smaller role in Germany than in the USA, however – intensely religious people are mostly regarded as weirdos here (if not as outright lunatics) and are not taken seriously in the public discourse.

"Normal" religion-affiiliated people and clerics are recognized and heard, however, as long as their arguments are generally reasonable. Even our current widely respected president is a former protestant pastor. But his religious background is not a significant factor.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:05 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
What do you think the future holds? I think many churches will not change and that such ultra-conservative institutions as the Southern Baptist Church is doomed to obscurity.

A church's hands are tied - at least if the leaders themselves are true believers, and not just in it as a business. The whole idea of a Church is that the rules that govern right vs wrong are unchanging and immutable. If adultery was wrong a thousand years ago, how can it be OK now, unless there is some sort of divine intervention to that effect?

In America, where you can start your own church very easily, you could easily start a "Church of Sex Drugs and Rock & Roll" which might be very popular, but would be obviously seen as a sellout.

I would argue that part of the decline in church membership is not due to their refusal to change the rule, but just the opposite. I know that the Episcopal church, for instance, lost a lot of members when they officially recognized gay marriage. Members saw the church selling out their values.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
oly720man
Posts: 5740
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
What label do you attach to someone who is non-religious?

Atheist, usually, though now atheist seems to have been claimed by the "fundamentalists" another one may be needed.

What I was trying to say is that people aren't seen as people, but judged by whatever label gets ascribed to them as if that's their only defining identity.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:45 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
you could easily start a "Church of Sex [...]" which might be very popular

Au contraire!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsnXQdkqChg (NSFW)

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
I would argue that part of the decline in church membership is not due to their refusal to change the rule, but just the opposite. I know that the Episcopal church, for instance, lost a lot of members when they officially recognized gay marriage. Members saw the church selling out their values.

That's a completely different conversation though. The members who left the Episcopal Church left and joined other churches that aligned more with their "traditional" beliefs...they didn't suddenly fall into this category of "none". They remained to identify themselves as Christians. As far as the OP's study goes, that movement wouldn't be statistically relevant.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 22):
Atheist, usually, though now atheist seems to have been claimed by the "fundamentalists" another one may be needed.

Not the answer I was expecting, but I see your point. I don't see that as necessarily being a negative label in a reasonable society. I only have one friend/acqaintance in my age bracket that uses the word "atheism" as if it were some terrible taboo...but he works for The Dream Center, so nothing particularly shocking about that.
Flying refined.
 
na
Posts: 9128
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
You've slightly contradicted yourself. How can something that's not a big factor "die down"? If there's something to die down, surely it must be considerable.

Why? I said, gays are a small minority, one percent, maybe two. And I said that the media attention is big. That is two different things. I think once the media becomes quiet, an it will after it has been achieved what is being claimed for, the discussion around it will die down.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
Anyway, I must disagree. As I mentioned in my first post, I am one of said young people, and many of my peers name the equality debate quite high in their reasons for distancing themselves from religion.

Why do they name the equality debate quite high? Not the least because there´s such a huge media campaign going on. If it would be treated like other things concerning small minorities no one would talk about it.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
That has always been the claim made by monopolistic religions: That exactly they "owned" ethical standards and that not having their specific religion would turn people into unconscientious monsters.

Thats grossly exaggerated, buth true at the core.

Nothing could be further from the truth.[/quote]
Oh really? Any proof? It might no have extreme effects on rich societies as long as they are rich, but I am afraid about what would happen to the huge rest of the world.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
When you're an atheist, you yourself have the responsibility to treat others with respect and dignity

Sadly there are far too many irresponsible people living on this planet. Its all fine in theory.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:12 pm

Quoting na (Reply 24):
Why? I said, gays are a small minority, one percent, maybe two. And I said that the media attention is big. That is two different things.

The relative importance of the factor is not tied to the size of the population it concerns. Just because gays make up 2% of the population, it doesn't mean that it should only be a tiny factor of why someone should dislike Christianity/Islam.

Quoting na (Reply 24):
Why do they name the equality debate quite high?

Today's well-connected youth recognize the injustice of granting certain rights to one group and not another, based on factors that are outside of the individual's control. Equality in general (not just on the gay marriage front) is listed as a priority of any of today's more progressive youth. Where church was once the social glue in communities of like-minded people, technology serves as that glue today, and thus allows the secular humanists to come together and educate others.

(I totally sound like some communist liberal arts student there, but I promise I'm not!   )

Quoting na (Reply 24):
Not the least because there´s such a huge media campaign going on.

And why do you suppose such a media campaign was initiated?

Quoting na (Reply 24):
Oh really? Any proof?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I feel like putting in my two cents...As someone who semi-frequently engages in debates of theism vs. atheism, I can assure you that there are no shortage of religious people (typically Christians, because that's the religion most of my religious friends prescribe to) that truly believe that we would not have laws against murder, theft, etc. if it were not for the Ten Commandments. According to them, if not for the Ten Commandments and the Bible, society would descend into anarchy whereby everything would be fair game.

Of course the idea that any religion could claim they own ethical standards in modern society is the furthest thing from the truth.

Human morality is birthed from the human condition, not from an ancient text. Of course it can be altered by influences and experiences during the course of one's life, but 99.99999% humans aren't born saying "I'm going to devote my life to killing people".
Flying refined.
 
Tango-Bravo
Posts: 2887
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 1:04 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:28 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
The churches, especially the Protestant ones, are going to have to have a little "Come to Jesus" moment as it were. If they are going to win back the hearts of the young and keep the hearts of the old, they need to switch their tune from one of condemnation to one of welcome and acceptance. "You are loved by God and by this church, no matter who or what you are." And they are going to have to show it in deed, not just in words.

There actually are such churches in the U.S., even if relatively few in number... and they are not only 'maintaining' their congregations but growing, some having weekly attendance of ~10k, plus others seeing 1k+ every week and growing... with much if not most to nearly all of their growth seeming to come from the 18-30 age group. In many (if not most) cases, such churches are not so much "win[ning] back the hearts of the young" as they are winning their hearts for the very first time.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Topic Author
Posts: 19586
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:20 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
A church's hands are tied - at least if the leaders themselves are true believers, and not just in it as a business.

But history has shown that churches bend. Sometimes slowly. I believe it was Pope JPII who finally admitted that the Catholic Church's handling of the Galileo affair might have been a bit inappropriate. Similarly, the Book of Revelations clearly describes a flat Earth with four corners and yet few churches insist on that model.

Until relatively recently, several American churches essentially canonized racism. The LDS Church (a church with a long history of backtracking on multiple issues) used to ban non-Whites from joining, IIRC. They also banned polygamy after coming to an agreement with the government, even though this was supposedly central to their theology. The Southern Baptist Church is *still* in the end stages of finally accepting interracial marriage without question. In fact, the entire impetus for the formation of the Southern Baptist Church (its separation from the Northern Baptist Church) was the fact that the Northern Baptist Church would not condone slavery.

So I disagree that hands are tied. Changes can and do happen.

Quoting na (Reply 16):

Tell me, when has that ever been said by the Catholic Church, the long gone dark middle ages excluded?

Translation: "When has that ever been said by the Catholic Church other than when it was said by the Catholic Church?" That's an absurd question. It was the position of the Church during the 15th and 16th centuries. They ran brothels in Spain, for example. To work in one, you had to be 14 and your name could not be Maria.

Oh wait... except TO THIS DAY it turns out that the Catholic Church has been sheltering pedophiles, running child prostitution rings and human trafficking and the only reason that they've taken any action on it is because it got out and went public.

Quoting na (Reply 13):
If you take away religion, what rules remain?

This argument always frightens us nonbelievers. What you are saying is that religion is necessary to impose morality. Thou shalt not kill, steal, etc. etc. etc. Without religion (and the inherent coercive threat of hell and promise of heaven), then what is there to make people play nice?

Do you not see how this scares the bujeezus out of us? What you are saying is that the only thing between you behaving like a civilized man and turning into a marauding mongol warrior (remember: always pillage before you burn) is your belief in God, Heaven, and Hell. Yes, that is actually what you are saying.

As a nonbeliever, the idea that I should treat other people with kindness and dignity is self-evident and I don't need a deity to spell it out.

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 26):
There actually are such churches in the U.S., even if relatively few in number...

There are, and I find it heartening. After all, we may disagree on whether there needs to be a "God," but I will not respect the dehumanization of others based on religion.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
zippyjet
Posts: 5077
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:39 am

There are many reasons, such as religious institutions becoming like our government, bloated out of control, judgemental with several nasty scandals. Also people are tiring of the fundamentalist "street gang mindset." Meaning it's our way or the highway to hell. Just my 2 cents.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15205
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:44 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):

A church's hands are tied - at least if the leaders themselves are true believers, and not just in it as a business. The whole idea of a Church is that the rules that govern right vs wrong are unchanging and immutable

Sounds like a personal problem...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
What you are saying is that religion is necessary to impose morality

Which is a problem because there's, you know, history, and millenia of religions behaving badly.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Topic Author
Posts: 19586
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:54 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
Which is a problem because there's, you know, history, and millenia of religions behaving badly.

And yet oddly, some don't. Like the Bhuddists and Taoists. And then there are the Jain, who are infuriatingly harmless. They wear cloths over their mouths to avoid breathing in flies and prepare their food in such a way as to kill as few bacteria as possible. Jain extremists are a strange thing, because unlike, say, Christian extremists, Jain extremists are extremely harmless. Frustratingly so.

One of the strongest predictors of violence in a society is the presence of a dominant religion that believes in an omnipotent entity who intervenes in daily affairs. Oddly, such societies are the most abstemous when it comes to physical affection of parents towards infants and in permitting teenagers to explore their sexuality.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Doona
Posts: 3382
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:43 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:56 am

Quoting na (Reply 24):
Sadly there are far too many irresponsible people living on this planet. Its all fine in theory.

So it's only thanks to religion that those "irresponsible people" stay on the straight and narrow?

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15205
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:13 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
And yet oddly, some don't.

I don't know much about Taoists or Jains but I like that Buddhism requires a lot of work to improve oneself, and not a lot of things, whereas the major religions have proud histories of amassing wealth at horrible expense, and doing as little self improvement as possible whilst maximizing blame on everyone else.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
na
Posts: 9128
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:13 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 31):
So it's only thanks to religion that those "irresponsible people" stay on the straight and narrow?

No one said "only". But you have to see that in many societies there isnt much orientation left.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Oh wait... except TO THIS DAY it turns out that the Catholic Church has been sheltering pedophiles, running child prostitution rings and human trafficking and the only reason that they've taken any action on it is because it got out and went public.

Where does THE Catholic Church run child prostitution rings? You seem to mix some criminal priests with THE Church.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Translation: "When has that ever been said by the Catholic Church other than when it was said by the Catholic Church?" That's an absurd question.


No, it isnt. Because always when it comes to argue against the Churches the main horror stories that are cited are 500 years old and older. Thats not the church of today.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
They ran brothels in Spain, for example. To work in one, you had to be 14 and your name could not be Maria.

I have never heard about that.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
As a nonbeliever, the idea that I should treat other people with kindness and dignity is self-evident

Again you mix yourself with other people. YOU, as a single person, are a responsible person for whom its self-evident. I am afraid many are not.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
And why do you suppose such a media campaign was initiated?

Among others because there is an overrepresentation of gays in the media. Btw, I am not against gay marriage as a symbol of partnership.

That said, again, I am not a devoted Christian swearing on everything in the bible, but I have come to the conclusion that the basic rules TODAYS Christian Church stands for (and I do not care if Catholic or protestant) are very important to society. The humanity needs some largely, or potentially independent orientation beside state law. I wont even limit it to the Christian Church. Look at overcrowded India, without the Hindu religion it would be a nightmare slaughterhouse. Thats my opinion after having been there numerous times.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15205
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:13 am

Quoting na (Reply 33):
You seem to mix some criminal priests with THE Church.

I find the church far more despicable in this case, since I don't believe the criminal (read: pedophile) priests are mentally sound. The higher ups however, that shuffle around and hide the problem priests rather than ejecting them and/or getting them help, are totally aware of what they are doing and know better.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13385
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:22 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I find this heartening and I'm quite happy to see everyone stop believing.

While I'm not the most religious person, I do believe in God. I'm absolutely not offended in any way by those who believe otherwise, however can you see where this post could be considered offensive by some?

For example; how would you react if there were a thread posted by someone talking about the "Rise of Catholicism/Judaism/Hinduism/whatever" and how they "find it heartening and quite happy to see people believing" the same way that individual does?

I have a feeling many here would be shouting them down about how inappropriate the thread was, how people should be applauded for believing what they want, not what YOU think is right, etc.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
us330
Posts: 3405
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:43 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
This also makes me nervous. "We're together because we share our heritage" sounds fine until you add the necessary counter point: "And if you don't, then you can't be one of us."

The counter point is far from "necessary," but I do understand concerns that such groups could promote self-segregation and prevent intermixing among people from different backgrounds. It's a question of balance, one that can really only be measured by the individuals associated with the group. Does the benefit of providing some sort of a community/social safety net outweigh the potential for individuals to stay solely within the group and use it for more than just a safety net?

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 19):
Local churches are not meant to be social clubs

If that's the case, then why do so many churches offer sunday school programs, youth groups, and other events designed to facilitate social ties and interactions among congregants?
 
777way
Posts: 6470
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:52 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 35):
Catholicism/Judaism/Hinduism/whatever"

Dare not even mention scary Islam in there alongside the other two but add in Hinduism, funny and no whatever does not count, its not like the other philosophy and mythical types that can be labeled whatever.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
It's not the slow disappearance of religion it's the slow disappearance of christianity, islam is growing.

True but its not the right type.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
Give them time to get some education and nice salaries and they'll start going the none route, too.
Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
My kid has a 2nd generation Moroccan on his class whose older siblings booze every bit as much as any local. I don't think they feel any different from the Catholic born, and they will very likely intermarry with a local.

No wont happen as KiwiRob pointed out with example in his reply.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 10):
but in the end the easy western middle-class life wins.

No have you not seen what immigrants are like in your countries despite many generations of being there, only a very small group opts for the western life style and most in that too the theiscultural and religious beliefs to an extent.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 14):
in places with decent incomes like Turkey the more educated and affluent, the more atheist you get.

Tuks aren't atheist theyre secular, belieiving but not practicing or letting religion govern. And yes Pakistanis are more conservative than North Africans but less than Gulf Arabs.

[Edited 2013-07-03 05:20:08]
 
na
Posts: 9128
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:01 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
I find the church far more despicable in this case, since I don't believe the criminal (read: pedophile) priests are mentally sound. The higher ups however, that shuffle around and hide the problem priests rather than ejecting them and/or getting them help, are totally aware of what they are doing and know better.

Without a doubt the treatment has been far from ideal in the past. But you are generalising, how these cases were treated was rather different in different countries/dioceses. In some places the bishops looked away or send those criminals to other places, which of cause is inexcusable and criminal in itself. In other places they were removed completely and/or treated. All this was then, and I hope the new rules do not let that happen again. Child molesting or even rape is one of the worst crimes I can think of, and if a priest does it, its even worse.
Please note that the percentage of pedophiles in the catholic church isnt higher than in the wider society. Its only that the position of a priest that makes misbehavior easier. Something similar applies to trainers and teachers.
 
User avatar
OA412
Crew
Posts: 3730
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:54 pm

I was baptised Greek Orthodox. We weren't particularly religious, but my mom would take us to church here and there. However, most Greek-Americans I know are actually quite religious. When I was a kid, I attended Greek language school taught by a very religious woman. I recall one day being called a liar in front of the whole class even though I was telling the truth, and then sitting through a lecture about how I was a sinner and could go to hell for lying. I was probably no more than 8 or 9 at the time. Why would you ever do that to a child? It's episodes such as this that made me drift from the church and organized religion. I can't abide this sort of behavior.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
I think people are also starting to question the unwavering respect religion has commanded forever. If any corporation acted even remotely similar to any of the world's major religions, it would make Enron look like Martha Stewart's whoopsie-daisie. The effect of religion over the centuries, and still today, is so net negative, that the respect and tax free status they receive is an outright insult.

I would also say that many crimes committed by various governments pale in comparison to the crimes committed by various churches.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
Religion does plenty good, but in my opinion it doesn't do enough to cover its losses.

Precisely.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
In actual fact, religious people have turned out to be not any more ethical in their actual behaviours than atheists, if not not actually less so.

Exactly! Some of the least ethical people I know also claim to be highly religious and vice versa.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
The higher ups however, that shuffle around and hide the problem priests rather than ejecting them and/or getting them help, are totally aware of what they are doing and know better.

Truth. Had any other organization acted similarly to the Catholic Church, it would have collapsed under the weight of the scandal, and many of its leaders would now be imprisoned. Meanwhile, Pope John Paul is on the fast-track to sainthood.  
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
na
Posts: 9128
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 39):
I would also say that many crimes committed by various governments pale in comparison to the crimes committed by various churches.

Hitler, Stalin and Mao together likely killed more people than all other political or so-called religious criminals in the whole human history. All three were "Nones".

Quoting OA412 (Reply 39):
Truth. Had any other organization acted similarly to the Catholic Church, it would have collapsed under the weight of the scandal, and many of its leaders would now be imprisoned.

Agreed.
 
cgnnrw
Posts: 1044
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 3:11 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:23 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 39):
I recall one day being called a liar in front of the whole class even though I was telling the truth, and then sitting through a lecture about how I was a sinner and could go to hell for lying. I was probably no more than 8 or 9 at the time. Why would you ever do that to a child? It's episodes such as this that made me drift from the church and organized religion. I can't abide this sort of behavior.

I experienced a similar incident, except I wasn't threatened with eternal damnation, I was in the 7th grade and attending a public school. I was accused of cheating and neither the teacher, the principal nor the guidance counselor believed me. Three adults threatening, shouting, name calling, making false accusations to a defenseless kid. The situation escalated to point they only relented after I fell to the floor crying and started to hyperventilate. Only then did the school decide to call my parents. They never proved I cheated (which I didn't) but I was "branded" a potential cheater and had to take all my tests in the principal's office for the rest of year.

My point is religion has done some screwed up stuff but they don't have a monopoly this type of behavior.
A330 man.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Topic Author
Posts: 19586
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:33 pm

Quoting na (Reply 40):

Hitler, Stalin and Mao together likely killed more people than all other political or so-called religious criminals in the whole human history. All three were "Nones".

They were, except they weren't. Their behavior was very similar to that of a religion. There was a focus on absolute dogma and infallability. Rather than worshipping gods, they demanded that people worship the state.

So in many ways, the "atheist" communists are the exception that proves the rule.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 35):
While I'm not the most religious person, I do believe in God. I'm absolutely not offended in any way by those who believe otherwise, however can you see where this post could be considered offensive by some?

Offensive because I idly wish everyone in the world would think like I do? I wonder who doesn't idly wish that?

Quoting na (Reply 33):
No, it isnt. Because always when it comes to argue against the Churches the main horror stories that are cited are 500 years old and older. Thats not the church of today.

Really? I was under the impression that the Vatican had existed in continuity. But to this day, the Vatican has sheltered prostitution rings and pedophiles, not to mention money launderers and other such criminals. So I reject any claim that the Vatican has on moral authority.

Quoting na (Reply 33):
Where does THE Catholic Church run child prostitution rings? You seem to mix some criminal priests with THE Church.

The Church is responsible for the behavior of its priests. It is responsible for conspiring to protect and hide those priests. They could not be exposed because knowledge of their existence would be seen as damaging to the Church. Except it turns out that the cover-up was far more damaging. So damaging that it led to the resignation of a Pope. A Pope whose future travel will be curtailed because certain countries might actually arrest and prosecute him on child endangerment charges.

Quoting na (Reply 33):
Again you mix yourself with other people. YOU, as a single person, are a responsible person for whom its self-evident. I am afraid many are not.

And if they are not, then religion will not help them. They will simply use religion to justify their behavior.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/...-religion-to-justify-their-crimes/

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 35):
For example; how would you react if there were a thread posted by someone talking about the "Rise of Catholicism/Judaism/Hinduism/whatever" and how they "find it heartening and quite happy to see people believing" the same way that individual does?

Well, I'd disagree. Disagreements are healthy.  
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:04 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
And yet oddly, some don't. Like the Bhuddists and Taoists.

Buddhists have quite a long history of engaging in conflict. It even happens still today in Thailand and Myanmar. Buddhists being completely non-violent is somewhat of a western myth.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
And then there are the Jain, who are infuriatingly harmless. They wear cloths over their mouths to avoid breathing in flies and prepare their food in such a way as to kill as few bacteria as possible. Jain extremists are a strange thing, because unlike, say, Christian extremists, Jain extremists are extremely harmless. Frustratingly so.

This is true. I have a childhood friend who is Jain and his family are the quietest, least aggressive people I know.

Quoting na (Reply 33):
No, it isnt. Because always when it comes to argue against the Churches the main horror stories that are cited are 500 years old and older. Thats not the church of today.

Well, apart from the whole sexual abuse thing...

How about the Church going into Africa with all their missionaries and imposing their radical views of the Bible onto the natives? Do you really think Ugandans would be trying to put gays to death today if it weren't for the Christians coming in and convincing them that the Bible says being gay is wrong? It's really only an issue of the last 100 years that Africans have been radicalized by various religions.

Quoting na (Reply 33):
The humanity needs some largely, or potentially independent orientation beside state law.

Again, why? I'm not convinced that we need to believe in stories made up a couple thousand years ago or else we'll descend into chaos.

Quoting 777way (Reply 37):
Dare not even mention scary Islam in there alongside the other two but add in Hinduism, funny and no whatever does not count, its not like the other philosophy and mythical types that can be labeled whatever.

Who cares? The recurring theme of this thread is how ALL religions cause conflict and harm...nobody is picking on solely on Islam.

Quoting na (Reply 40):
Hitler, Stalin and Mao together likely killed more people than all other political or so-called religious criminals in the whole human history. All three were "Nones".

Well, Hitler's religious beliefs are highly debatable. I've seen convincing proof from both sides of the argument, so I'm not even going to touch that one.

But since you brought it up, the Crusades killed more people than Hitler and Stalin put together. Mao killed about 40,000,000 (average of the estimates), and there are no other comparable religious conflicts that are that high, but rather I would have to string a bunch of smaller ones together (and there are so, so many to choose from) to match that number, which I don't feel like spending the next 30 minutes doing. The point being, religious conflicts has most definitely killed more people than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.
Flying refined.
 
777way
Posts: 6470
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:29 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 43):
Who cares? The recurring theme of this thread is how ALL religions cause conflict and harm...nobody is picking on solely on Islam.

I just found it funny the poster acted as if the religion did not even exist keeping in mind events of the last decade and passed it onto the "whatever" group of philosophies and make beliefs, its like he went blank or hid his head ion the sand like an ostrich.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 43):
Buddhists have quite a long history of engaging in conflict. It even happens still today in Thailand and Myanmar. Buddhists being completely non-violent is somewhat of a western myth.

True.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 43):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):And then there are the Jain, who are infuriatingly harmless. They wear cloths over their mouths to avoid breathing in flies and prepare their food in such a way as to kill as few bacteria as possible. Jain extremists are a strange thing, because unlike, say, Christian extremists, Jain extremists are extremely harmless. Frustratingly so.

No mass following or conversions despite, says a lot.

[Edited 2013-07-03 13:32:38]
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Topic Author
Posts: 19586
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 43):
The recurring theme of this thread is how ALL religions cause conflict and harm

Not all. Some, yes. Some more than others.

Religion is not necessary to cause evil. It certainly is one major cause, but the communists have demonstrated (in a way) that it is not necessary. Of course, I would argue that communism shares many features with a religion, but that's a different debate.

Religion is certainly sufficient to cause a lot of evil, though.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 7469
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:03 pm

Quoting na (Reply 40):
Hitler, Stalin and Mao together likely killed more people than all other political or so-called religious criminals in the whole human history. All three were "Nones".

They all made their own religion of which they were the gods. Mao has still a huge flock, Hitler a small one, even Stalin is still highly appreciated in Russia from recent polls.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9800
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:21 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 43):
But since you brought it up, the Crusades killed more people than Hitler and Stalin put together. Mao killed about 40,000,000 (average of the estimates), and there are no other comparable religious conflicts that are that high, but rather I would have to string a bunch of smaller ones together (and there are so, so many to choose from) to match that number, which I don't feel like spending the next 30 minutes doing. The point being, religious conflicts has most definitely killed more people than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.

Estimate for Crusades: between 1 and 3 million (from the first through 3rd crusades - i.e. the big ones),

Estimates for Stalin: between 8 and 61 million,

Estimates for Mao: between 49 and 68 million,

Estimates for the Holocaust (not just Jews but political dissenters, all non-ayrians taken to the camps: between 4.2 and 17 million (And that does not count combat deaths for WWII itself.)

So where did you hear the Crusades killed more than Hitler and Stalin put together?

Oh yes - I forgot to mention. Mao, Stalin and Hitler were in the 20th century. The crusades were the better part of a millennium ago.

[Edited 2013-07-03 17:15:47]
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
sfbdude
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:57 pm

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:09 am

I'm only 30 years old but, I'm more religious now than ever before. I don't know why exactly. Maybe I'm getting more religious with age or maybe I'm getting more religious because of how I view the world around me. As far as numbers go, I don't care. It doesn't impact my faith one way or the other.
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Posts: 1334
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

RE: The Rise Of The "Nones"

Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:23 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
Quoting na (Reply 13):
There is a huge danger in a society of "nones". People who have nothing to loose, nothing to fear but the police are potentially dangerous.

So because they don't fear an unseen supernatural power, that somehow makes them dangerous? You're going to have to expound on that point a little more before any non-influenced individual is convinced.

Wouldn't someone who is convinced that their mission is ordained by god itself, and they will be rewarded in the afterlife for carrying out god's wishes in this world be far more dangerous?

I mean, after all, we have quite a long list to choose from for examples of the latter.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word, and doesn't even make sense.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests