SoJo
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Train Derailment In Canada

Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:35 pm

Just seen this on BBC news

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23212541

Looks bad. my thoughts are with you
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
Arrow
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:03 pm

This should light a fire under the debate over how best to transport crude oil -- railcar has been growing exponentially in North America because industry now faces an onslaught of environmental opposition every time it proposes a new pipeline.

Be careful what you wish for.

Supreme irony -- just two nights ago I watched an old Denzel Washington movie about a run away train with toxic cargo threatening Scranton, Pa. Movie worked out well --- too bad it doesn't always do that in real life.

No one will pay much attention to this today -- plane crashed in SFO.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
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cjg225
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:59 am

Yuck.

For this to happen to a Class II could be devastating to its existence.

Thoughts and prayers to those affected...

Quoting Arrow (Reply 1):
Supreme irony -- just two nights ago I watched an old Denzel Washington movie about a run away train with toxic cargo threatening Scranton, Pa. Movie worked out well --- too bad it doesn't always do that in real life.

Rather, the fictional "Stanton, PA" which was meant to be Altoona, I believe. The real thing happened in Ohio.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
rfields5421
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:01 am

I'm reading on the news this morning in the US that the train was unmanned.

That there was a crew change in progress, and the train rolled away apparently brakes not set correctly.

It doesn't appear to have been under power, just rolling down hill.

Of course this is all very preliminary information.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:37 pm

I think in terms of bod count, this may ultimately turn out to be very bad.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 1):
This should light a fire under the debate over how best to transport crude oil -- railcar has been growing exponentially in North America because industry now faces an onslaught of environmental opposition every time it proposes a new pipeline.

Be careful what you wish for.

Indeed. Double-walled pipelines I believe can be easily shown to be safer, especially in an area not particularly seismically active. There is a little activity in the area, but not much, and not of any large scale.

Most people have little knowledge of risk and consequence, but they do have their beliefs.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 2):
For this to happen to a Class II could be devastating to its existence.

Even now you can hear squadrons of lawyers starting their engines. Many class action lawsuits to follow.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 3):
I'm reading on the news this morning in the US that the train was unmanned.

That there was a crew change in progress, and the train rolled away apparently brakes not set correctly.

Yes, I believe crew had retired for the night. As to brakes, a strong possibility, but there will be an investigation -- which will inevitably take years.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
comorin
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:49 pm

This got overshadowed a bit by the SFO crash, but it is a horrible accident and quite unimaginable for our times - perhaps Canada's biggest Rail disaster? Who will take the lead in the investigation - Transport Canada?
 
connies4ever
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:14 pm

Press conference this AM has raised death count to three. But I don't see this as the final number, unfortunately.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:03 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 5):
This got overshadowed a bit by the SFO crash, but it is a horrible accident and quite unimaginable for our times - perhaps Canada's biggest Rail disaster? Who will take the lead in the investigation - Transport Canada?

Oh heavens no.

Sept 1, 1947 Dugald Manitoba (just east of Winnipeg), collision, fire. 31 dead, 85 injured (inc. my b.f. father and grandfather)
Oct 7, 1966 Dorion Quebec, school bus hit at level crossing, 19 dead (inc. driver)
Feb 8, 1986 Hinton Alberta (near Jasper), collision, 23 dead, 71 injured
Nov 21, 1950 Canoe River, eastern BC, collision, 21 dead, 51 injured (mostly soldiers en route Korea)
Jan 21, 1910 Spanish River ON (nr Sault St Marie), derailment into river, 44 dead, mostly drowned
Jun 29, 1864, St Hilaire Quebec, failed to ack. STOP, fell into river at open swing bridge, accepted as 99 dead

Latest info I have re Lac Megantic is now 5 dead plus "about" 40 missing. This will unfortunately get much worse, I think.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Okie
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:04 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 1):
This should light a fire under the debate over how best to transport crude oil -- railcar has been growing exponentially in North America because industry now faces an onslaught of environmental opposition every time it proposes a new pipeline.

Well the crude that is suppose to transport on the Keystone Pipeline is now transporting on Buffets trains.
Do you get an idea of why Buffet supports Obama's plan, I do.

Okie
 
AR385
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:47 am

I read that they can´t get the death count right because people may have been "vaporized" by the extreme temps. generated by the explosion.

Yep, pipelines are the way to go. They have their issues too, I know, I worked for ENRON, North American Pipeline Development. But they are much better than rail.

My condolences to all.
 
cmf
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:21 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 4):
Double-walled pipelines I believe can be easily shown to be safer

Where do they use double walls or even suggested using double walled? Keystone suggest using thicker walls but only close to roads, homes and other "higher risk" areas.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
FDH
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:36 pm

Latest update, sad:

13 confirmed dead, 50 missing after explosion early Saturday

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montre...gantic-quebec-train-explosion.html

FDH
 
ltbewr
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:58 am

Transport Canada and the Quebec provincial police are leading the investigation. The center (centre) of the town was destroyed, including the town's library and dozens of structures. From pictures posted on the CBC news website, 30 rail cars are piled up side to side - not end to end as they should be - in a smoldering hunk. The 'black box' locomotive recorder has been recovered, like that on an airplane, I would presume the engineer has been talked with and given blood tests for alcohol and drugs. Clearly there was a serious mechanical failure or improper procedures or insufficient safety standards that need to be put in. Perhaps they need to have any locomotive continuously have an engineer on board when running or parked on the tracks (not in a supervised rail yard). As noted above, dozens of people are still unaccounted for and at least 13 are dead. Looking on a link to the CBC news site, there are comments there are beating up on the PM, his party blaming them as well as against environmentalists who are against pipelines (including the XL one).

These cars contained oil from North Dakota, USA and on their way to St. John, Canada. My question is why this USA oil not going to a USA refinery in the Midwest. I would rather see that than for it to be sent to another country.
 
Arrow
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:25 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 12):
These cars contained oil from North Dakota, USA and on their way to St. John, Canada. My question is why this USA oil not going to a USA refinery in the Midwest. I would rather see that than for it to be sent to another country.

Crude oil shipments cross the border in both directions based on market needs. But, far far more Canadian oil goes south than US oil flows north. The two markets are completely integrated and have been for decades --- but the US has always been the net beneficiary of that trade.

Having said that -- I'm a little surprised too that Bakken oil is finding its way to New Brunswick. Must be something to do with the refinery feedstock requirements and the fact that you can't pipe Canadian oil that far east (not yet anyway).
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:32 pm

The death toll is now at 15.  http://www.ctvnews.ca/death-toll-in-...ain-disaster-rises-to-15-1.1359434

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 12):
Looking on a link to the CBC news site, there are comments there are beating up on the PM, his party blaming them

I know people that blame Harper when they bump their knee on the edge of a coffee table. It's no different than those in the US who blame Obama for everything. They throw everything they can at [insert elected leader here] and hope something sticks.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 12):
as well as against environmentalists who are against pipelines (including the XL one).

Ezra Levant from Sun News actually published a piece this morning where he basically said that it was eco-terrorism. Some of the most irresponsible journalism I've ever seen.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
Crude oil shipments cross the border in both directions based on market needs. But, far far more Canadian oil goes south than US oil flows north. The two markets are completely integrated and have been for decades --- but the US has always been the net beneficiary of that trade.

  
Flying refined.
 
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cjg225
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:37 pm

Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
A346Dude
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:57 am

If this was not a crime, then the railroad left a loaded train at the top of a grade, solely reliant on a locomotive to keep running. No chocks, no derail, and an inadequate number of handbrakes applied - in other words, no redundancy whatsoever. If this is truly the case, it's shocking negligence. Given the bungled reaction we're seeing from the railroad, it seems plausible.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:53 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 8):
Well the crude that is suppose to transport on the Keystone Pipeline is now transporting on Buffets trains.
Do you get an idea of why Buffet supports Obama's plan, I do.

Buffet doesn't own the Montreal, Maine & Atlantic. The Oil was going to Canada, so it wouldn't have been on the pipeline even if it were there.

looks like they are no longer treating this as an accident.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/10/world/...as/canada-runaway-train/?hpt=hp_c3
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
doug_or
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:19 pm

A lot of seemingly contradictory insinuations in the articles. Claims that there was a crime, but no foul play. Not terrorism, but perhaps poorly trained firemen or improper procedures with setting handbrakes. Would either of those be crimes?

Quoting falstaff (Reply 17):

Buffet doesn't own the Montreal, Maine & Atlantic. The Oil was going to Canada, so it wouldn't have been on the pipeline even if it were there.

Okie's paranoid ramblings weren't on topic. He was saying that as long as Keystone is held up Buffet's BNSF will be making money moving that oil by rail in the US.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:30 am

I'm a bit suspicious of how quickly the engineer on this train is being thrown under the bus by management. It almost seems like a way for the company to isolate this accident from the rest of the company, simply blaming one person.

"MMA, which is headquartered in Chicago, has a long history of accidents in Canada, according to Transportation Safety Board data, which shows 129 accidents, including 77 derailments - some of them minor - since 2003. It is one of only two rail companies in Canada, both of them small, that is allowed to operate trains manned by a single engineer." ( http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...rain-missing-idUSBRE9690HJ20130710 )

I hope the investigation will not only focus on this single incident, but also take a look at the Health & Safety culture within the company. 77 derailments in ten years seems pretty high to me, and could suggest a wider problem.

There is also some confusion as to what exactly the Fire Department told MMA after it had put out the fire, and what the dispatcher had been told, and what he/she then did with that information. Should the Fire Department have left the train without getting an engineer to inspect it first and ensure it was safe? ( http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...in-narrative-idUSL1N0FE16120130709 )

Finally, it comes to light that "U.S. regulators have been debating the safety of the railcars for more than 20 years."
The "inadequate design" of the DOT-111 tank cars made them "subject to damage and catastrophic loss of hazardous materials," the NTSB concluded in its investigation of the 2009 incident, which killed one person and injured several others in Cherry Valley, Illinois.

"The Association of American Railroads (AAR) previously opposed retrofitting, saying it would cost the industry "well over" $1 billion. In comparison, derailment costs totaled about $64 million over the past five years, the group said in a March 2011 letter. It said there had been one fatality and 11 injuries from the derailments in the 2004-2008 period." ( http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...s-train-cars-idUSBRE9680XZ20130709 )

The engineer who parked the train may carry a lot of the responsibility, but clearly there were contributing factors along the way. I sincerely hope that the net of this investigation is cast widely, and regulations reviewed, so as to prevent something like this from ever happening again.

Here, in Aberdeen, we've just had the 25th anniversary of the Piper Alpha disaster (explosion on an oil and gas platform) which killed 167 people. It was a watershed moment for the industry and has made the North Sea oil and gas industry one of the safest in the world. Hopefully Lac-Magentic will have the same effect on the railroads industry.
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
SoJo
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:23 am

I have just read this and there seems to be some conflict between certain parties

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23266074

These photos really show the destruction caused

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22953194

They are talking about rebuilding the town. Wouldn't there be an awful lot of pollution left after this disaster?

My codolences to all involved
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:44 am

Quoting okie (Reply 8):
Well the crude that is suppose to transport on the Keystone Pipeline is now transporting on Buffets trains.
Do you get an idea of why Buffet supports Obama's plan, I do.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 12):
These cars contained oil from North Dakota, USA and on their way to St. John, Canada. My question is why this USA oil not going to a USA refinery in the Midwest. I would rather see that than for it to be sent to another country.

Canada has refineries in the east for light oil whereas US Midwest refineries (most of which process light oil too) might not have the demand for raw product at the time. Oil and products go both ways.

Another case is Mexico. A net oil exporter to the US, but a gasoline importer. The US exports finished products (gasoline, kerosene, etc) to a lot of Latin American countries actually, and even across the Atlantic and Pacific. Still a net crude importer though.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
PHX787
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:16 pm

This looks like a gigantic litigation mess in the end.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/w...-to-be-fertile-ground-for-lawsuits
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Okie
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:33 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 17):
Buffet doesn't own the Montreal, Maine & Atlantic. The Oil was going to Canada, so it wouldn't have been on the pipeline even if it were there.

No one has said he did.
Please re-read the comment and that it was related to the Keystone Pipeline
It is very simple to comprehend.

Okie
 
brilondon
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:15 pm

The talk is now of 50 dead in Quebec and I don't see how many people are injured. I pray for the town and its people. I hope that government really puts the screws to this company for its poor operating record as it has been revealed that they seem to have problems for the past 10 years with incidents and I hope that the government suspends its operating license to stop any more carnage.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
SoJo
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RE: Train Derailment In Canada

Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:25 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 24):
The talk is now of 50 dead in Quebec and I don't see how many people are injured. I pray for the town and its people. I hope that government really puts the screws to this company for its poor operating record as it has been revealed that they seem to have problems for the past 10 years with incidents and I hope that the government suspends its operating license to stop any more carnage.

Amen to that brilondon. A very sad situation.
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!

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