TheSultanOfWing
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You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:16 pm

Good day,

this horrible crash in San Fransisco got me contemplating the following scenario:

Say it was you spotting / filming at an airport, and you happen to record a fatal crash; would you:

-Drop off the Memory Card at the nearest police station?
-Hurry home, inform the press and await the highest bidder......subsequently pocketing the money?
-Accept a high offer but donate the money to the victims instead?
-Make it public ASAP by posting it on Youtube; Facebook etc to keep it transparent?

It is possible that CNN paid a lot of money for this 1st Asiana footage; so I am torn:

Would you be able to justify keeping the money to yourself?
This is not a very far fetched scenario, as many of us shoot a lot of footage around airfields.

Your input would be most welcomed, thanks.
I feel like the A318 at times: I am probably worth more parted out than as a whole.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:26 pm

Quoting thesultanofwing (Thread starter):
-Accept a high offer but donate the money to the victims instead?

I'd do this if I'm able. I don't care what they do with it then, though I'd make sure the authorities had a copy
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
AeroWesty
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting thesultanofwing (Thread starter):
-Hurry home, inform the press and await the highest bidder......subsequently pocketing the money?

I would do this without regrets, and stuff it all into my retirement account.

I would make sure that the investigators got a copy for free, but the victims will have deep pockets to make claims against. It's not like a natural disaster where the Red Cross would be asking for monetary donations, and that would really be the dividing line for me. In a natural disaster, I'd sell the footage, but give the money away.

The above is if I had truly sought-after exclusive video. Normal, everyday footage, I'd just give away to CNN's iReport or something.
International Homo of Mystery
 
Rara
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:46 pm

I'd sell the video to the highest bidder. Obviously making sure that the authorities are supplied with all the necessary material first and foremost, but thereafter I'd just sell it.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:23 pm

It would depend for me...
Something like this in SFO, i'd donate the money... or ask the media to make a donation in my name to get the footage an show the agency (like the Red cross) to donate to in their reports.
Something like Air France 358 at YYZ where no one died and it was well covered, yea I'd sell it and pocket it...
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:27 pm

But if you turned the original into the authorities for free, wouldn't they give a copy to the media for free?

Like the guy who took the video of the Asiana plane crashing. Did he turn it in for free? Is he a a.netter? (Very high possibility) Maybe he could tell us what he did?
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:34 pm

I'd sell it. What good will it do if I keep it? However, part of the deal would be to acknowledge me in the video.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Maverick623
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:41 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 5):
But if you turned the original into the authorities for free, wouldn't they give a copy to the media for free?

Yes, but then the media would have to wait until whatever authority has it, releases it; and they would release it to everyone that asked... i.e., you can't put the "exclusive" banner on it.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
BN747
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:45 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 5):
But if you turned the original into the authorities for free, wouldn't they give a copy to the media for free?

Yes they would..and claim 'Ooops' later because they have a media liaison person that you have no idea what their relationship to the press is.

I was paid $1500 for footage of the Air Canada A340 that got jammed up in SFO spotters for sleeping at the wheel, because they would have had better quality footage than the fella yesterday.. but all in all..I'm glad someone got it on tape or card.


Given the poor quality of Asiana's incident, he could have (or would have) earned between 2500-10K because he was the only one with it.

But it would not surprise me if certain networks said 'no thanks' because they really don't think ahead in aviation situations, probably they don't understand a lot issues surrounding it.

BN747

[Edited 2013-07-08 16:56:53]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:56 pm

Side note here: with many people filming takeoffs and landings, I'm surprised no one on the UA flight taxiing for takeoff was filming. That would have been the best video out there.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
BN747
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:01 am

The Air Canada A340 was in Toronto as you know, but by typing in the airport code in my post..it is eliminating the rest of my statement.

after jammed up in Toronto. CNN decided not to air it (but it was the exact same ship involved). I called CNN yesterday because I had heard the anchor state 'they could not see where the tail separated' .. I told them just look at the nose of the United 744 holding short. I then griped at some of the SFO vid spotters for sleeping at the wheel, because they would have had better quality footage than the fella yesterday.. but all in all..I'm glad someone got it on tape or card.
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:06 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 9):
Side note here: with many people filming takeoffs and landings, I'm surprised no one on the UA flight taxiing for takeoff was filming. That would have been the best video out there.

True, but the 'electronic device thing' has most videographers scared to do that, but the daring will do. But with iPhones and Galaxy's and their super megapixel cameras.. that would have been super dramatic footage, but would have shocked the shooter immediately as he started to shoot because sitting portside your view point would have been right when it hit the approach lights and sea wall right off the bat - that would fry your brain on the spot.
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Aaron747
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:56 am

If it was truly exclusive - one copy to the media outlets asking, and one upload to the NTSB website.

Otherwise, no. Chances are pretty good someone aboard the UAL 747 or OZ 214 were filming the event. In the case of the latter, it's a matter of whether or not their camera still works or can be recovered from the aircraft if left behind.

[Edited 2013-07-08 17:57:44]
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:03 am

I'd try to sell it for as much money as I could. The police and NTSB will get it for free anyway.
 
BN747
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:22 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
Chances are pretty good someone aboard the UAL 747 or OZ 214 were filming the event.

Actually those odds are very very low .. aviation shooters here in America aren't even remotely close to being as prolific as Japanese shooters. Most AV shooters are doing it outside(of the aircraft vs from inside) and over the fence and a fewer number will actually brave the wrath of FA's on a taxiing aircraft. There are threads here about people who've gotten in to it over using a cam on board after pushback. But with these great smartphones and after the 'FA's have been seated - then the only thing to fear is the evil eye of 'Johnny Rulebook' watching operate your device.. he may think you're a terrorist.

And with United, esp an Intl flight, like that 744..most likely no one was shooting. Given any luck, the guy shooting was most likely seated on the starboard side.

Any OZ shooter? ..well that oughta' be some interesting video..
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Aaron747
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:48 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 14):
There are threads here about people who've gotten in to it over using a cam on board after pushback. But with these great smartphones and after the 'FA's have been seated - then the only thing to fear is the evil eye of 'Johnny Rulebook' watching operate your device.. he may think you're a terrorist.

There are tons of takeoff and landing videos on youtube from aboard 747s, DL, UA, etc, J class, Y class, doesn't seem to matter.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
BN747
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:29 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 15):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 14):
There are threads here about people who've gotten in to it over using a cam on board after pushback. But with these great smartphones and after the 'FA's have been seated - then the only thing to fear is the evil eye of 'Johnny Rulebook' watching operate your device.. he may think you're a terrorist.

There are tons of takeoff and landing videos on youtube from aboard 747s, DL, UA, etc, J class, Y class, doesn't seem to matter.

Yes I know, but .. 1- most begin on take off roll. Many guys get the pushback onwards (the best).. but given as many vids as you think there are .. their numbers vs the number of departures/arrivals per day.. it has to average 1 filming per 10,000 take offs - and that is a very conservative estimate. But it is indeed a HUGE impovement, I remember when it was more like 1 per 20-30,000. and this is every day. I have to disagree.. it's just not as widespread as it appears to be given the numerous flights - even with you tube. Just shooting outside form the fence - we have no dedicated shooters in all of Africa, 2 dedicated in GRU, 1 in BSB, Manaus, SDU and the rest of the continent is spotty, All Europe is covered, lost Madrid spotters, in Asia - Japan & Taiwan is totally covered, Hong Kong and the rest of Asia is spotty. Australia is covered very well as is Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. In the States, best covered are LAX, MIA, BOS, ORD, SFO, JFK in that order other airports are totally spotty in consistent coverage. My point is those shooters (we'll call them 'outside' shooters) greatly outnumber 'cabin-window shooters). The outside guys are daily if not every other hour. The inside cabin-shooters are far far less in frequency...trust me, I'm all over this.

You want to see the ABSOLUTE best (non-pilot/cockpit) cabin shooter guy at cabin-window views from pushbacks, taxi, take off/arrival videos - look up user Bretdgod on YT. That guy is awesome at it!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
AR385
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:40 am

Quoting thesultanofwing (Thread starter):
It is possible that CNN paid a lot of money for this 1st Asiana footage; so I am torn:

I kept hearing on CNN that it was an EXCLUSIVE video, so I suppose the guy sold it.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
I would do this without regrets, and stuff it all into my retirement account.


     

Exactly. I would sell it to the highest bidder specifying in the exclusivity clause that it does not apply to authorities which I would make sure they receive a copy. However, I don´t know if those things must be turned in to the authorities by law anyway so maybe my point is moot. But yeah, I would sell it if the media outlet makes an exception on exclusivity for authorities.
 
Superfly
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:39 am

How much would a news outlet pay for such a video?
Wouldn't the shooter want to get his/her copy out to the press as quick as possible just in case someone else comes forward with a better video?
I know this spotting location well and this man sounded like he was indoors which isn't the best vantage point for spotting at SFO.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 5):
Is he a a.netter? (Very high possibility)

Of all the A.net meets I went to in SFO, I don't recall anyone with that accent.
Bring back the Concorde
 
BN747
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:34 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
How much would a news outlet pay for such a video?
Quoting BN747 (Reply 8):

Given the poor quality of Asiana's incident, he could have (or would have) earned between 2500-10K because he was the only one with it.

Had his shot rivaled that of the National Airlines 744 at Bagram... he would have been on the higher end.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
Wouldn't the shooter want to get his/her copy out to the press as quick as possible just in case someone else comes forward with a better video?

In this day and age, that's to be considered big time.. because that could happen and you missed the opportunity by holding out. I guess this is where it pays off on knowing in advance who to go to...and certainly NOT the local news! Go straight to the national networks.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
I know this spotting location well and this man sounded like he was indoors which isn't the best vantage point for spotting at SFO.

yeah, Bayshore Park (I think that's the name ) or close to it. i've shot there as well as on the field at SFO. Looks like he shot it with the first camera ever made for a cell phone.
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
photopilot
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:23 pm

Quoting thesultanofwing (Thread starter):
-Hurry home, inform the press and await the highest bidder......subsequently pocketing the money?

Basically correct.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 5):
But if you turned the original into the authorities for free, wouldn't they give a copy to the media for free?

Yes, therefore you DO NOT turn it over to the Authorities. (see below)

Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):
I would sell it to the highest bidder specifying in the exclusivity clause that it does not apply to authorities which I would make sure they receive a copy. However, I don´t know if those things must be turned in to the authorities by law anyway so maybe my point is moot. But yeah, I would sell it if the media outlet makes an exception on exclusivity for authorities.

Ok, I'm going to speak from direct personal experience.

When I was in first year university, I shot the images below. (pre-digital era, so it was on Tri-X)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/Steve_YYZ/Misc_Photos/NNAWinner.jpg

This lady was killed when her chute malfunctioned. She tried to untangle the lines then finally did a cut-away but her reserve chute did not deploy. Impact was about 100 meters from where I was shooting from.

First... the police tried to confiscate my film at the scene because it was "evidence of a fatality". I refused as the film was my personal property and the police have absolutely no legal right to my property. The police realizing that I wasn't going to be bluffed out of my film did not pursue it further.

Next, I contacted several media outlets by phone, discussed the situation and then went to one newspaper (largest in Canada by the way). We agreed that they would process the film so we could see exactly what I had captured and ONLY then would we negotiate any rights/payments. We clearly agreed that the act of processing the film did not constitute any rights of publication or sale.

After we had real images to deal with, we struck a deal in which I granted (sold) them First Day Exclusive Publication Rights only. Thus, after 24 hours, the rights reverted to me for subsequent sales. The deal also specifically excluded the newspaper from providing any images to any other distribution source. (such as wire services, etc).

One day later I had a line-up of offers for subsequent sales and did quite well off them. Then approximately one week later, I negotiated a syndicate deal (for a percentage) for worldwide rights.

End result... with residuals over the following year, I FULLY PAID for an entire year of my University education, including tuition, apartment, food, sundries, etc. Imagine that... a full year of my life paid for for basically 3 photos!!!

Now.... what did I do about the authorities. I made them aware of the images (post first day publication) and at the Coroner's Inquest into the fatality, I provided any and all images they required (they could have issued a subpoena if I refused) for the inquest. Also, the Coroner's Inquest was some months after the incident so I was no longer worried about any possible release of the photos to the media. By then, it was old news and I'd made my money).

Do I think about this incident and the fact I made money off this lady's death? Yes, occasionally I do. Her name was Mary Ross and she was 46 years old, a mother and wife. I do feel sorry for her family but as a former journalist (spent 20 years in the profession after university) I also realize that my job was to document life, both good and bad. There was nothing I could do to either help or assist the situation when her chute didn't open. So you don't think.... you keep the cameras running. Do your thinking later.

In summary... take the money, just as much as you can get.
 
rfields5421
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:02 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 9):
I'm surprised no one on the UA flight taxiing for takeoff was filming. That would have been the best video out there.

The angle was wrong.

The cockpit crew saw the approach - but they were working to straighten out weight/ balance and hazmat cargo paperwork (Reported on several forums - I have not seen a statement to that effect from the NTSB or United). The cockpit crew should not have been filming. Admitting they were filming and posting pics/ video might be career ending.

By the time the tail structure shattered and the wreckage got to the piano keys - it would have been out of view of the cockpit except the captain turning almost completely around. It would have gone completely out of view in only one or two seconds

The passengers view of the accident would have been also only one or two seconds as the wreckage slide past the aircraft.

But since they sat in place almost three hours before the tug came out to turn the airplane and tow them back to gate 101 - the passengers may have some interesting video/ pictures of the rescue efforts, the runway walk for victims, and closeup of the burned out shell.

However by the time they got back to the terminal, there were already so many pictures out - no one would be interested in buying those from the UA aircraft.
 
BN747
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:11 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 21):
The passengers view of the accident would have been also only one or two seconds as the wreckage slide past the aircraft.

That depends on where you were seated.. as the contour of the 747 comes to the nose it bends plus 744 is on the taxiway with at least 300 -400 feet of separation from 28L .. that's a lot viewing space as I stated earlier someone seated ahead of the wings up to first would most likely have seen it come into view just as the 777 started skimming the approach lights..I've take that shot a lot!
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
D L X
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:01 pm

Don't give it for free. The news media is making a ton of money off your freebies. (The fact that so many people do those iReports has always bothered me as people giving up valuable intellectual property.)

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
Quoting thesultanofwing (Thread starter):
-Hurry home, inform the press and await the highest bidder......subsequently pocketing the money?

I would do this without regrets, and stuff it all into my retirement account.

I would make sure that the investigators got a copy for free, but the victims will have deep pockets to make claims against. It's not like a natural disaster where the Red Cross would be asking for monetary donations, and that would really be the dividing line for me. In a natural disaster, I'd sell the footage, but give the money away.

The above is if I had truly sought-after exclusive video. Normal, everyday footage, I'd just give away to CNN's iReport or something.

This. You'd have to think about timing for a news item. A poor video (as this one was) would need to be sold fairly quickly lest another video pop up of better quality. But if it is a good quality video, say using a zoom lens, its value will last longer.

But whatever you do, make sure the authorities get it. You should be compensated, but victims and future travelers should also be helped.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
Yes, but then the media would have to wait until whatever authority has it, releases it; and they would release it to everyone that asked... i.e., you can't put the "exclusive" banner on it.

If it's not exclusive, you're not going to get much for it.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 9):
I'm surprised no one on the UA flight taxiing for takeoff was filming. That would have been the best video out there.

"Please turn off electronic devices until informed that you can use them by your crew."

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
How much would a news outlet pay for such a video?

Well, my somewhat related story is this:

I shot the last photo of the Continental 737 that crashed on takeoff at DEN in 2008. CNN found my photo and contacted me asking if they could use it. I said of course, and that I would ask $250. (It was not a photo of the crash, but rather of the jet in normal operation, and I found 11 other quality photos of it online.) My reasoning is this: I have to pay for my equipment, which I did not get for free. I have sold other photos for between $100 and $500 to pilots and trade journals.

In the end, CNN stonewalled me and refused to give me any money, even when I pointed out that they were going to use my photo commercially. So, my photo in turn did not air.

I am certain that if the photo were of the actual incident, they would have paid much much more than $250 for it.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
After we had real images to deal with, we struck a deal in which I granted (sold) them First Day Exclusive Publication Rights only. Thus, after 24 hours, the rights reverted to me for subsequent sales.

This is good. News organizations make money off of how new information is -- old news is not news. Getting the reversion was smart.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:23 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 9):
I'm surprised no one on the UA flight taxiing for takeoff was filming. That would have been the best video out there.

"Please turn off electronic devices until informed that you can use them by your crew."

Try telling that to all those in YouTube.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
PHX787
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:15 am

My opinion- if there's deaths on board, yeah I'd donate some money to those families. But if it's like the AF crash in YYZ, where there's no deaths, then nope, I'd ask for money. It's my film, after all.
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RubberJungle
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:07 pm

The opening post misses out the option that seems to be the most common: Act like a lemming and fall over yourself giving your photos and footage to a TV station for nothing more than a few fleeting minutes of fame and bragging rights, and hugely weaken the negotiating position of anyone who's taken a photo that isn't bang-to-rights exclusive...
 
AeroWesty
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:18 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 25):
My opinion- if there's deaths on board, yeah I'd donate some money to those families.

Not in this lifetime if those who've lost loved ones have an insurer to go against. Here's how it works: They'll be using your photos and videos in court to convince a jury of what a harrowing death their loved ones endured to get even more money out of it. And you're going to donate some of your cash to them? No way. Charge the media and rent your images to the victim's families. Not a single one of them would think twice about capitalizing on your work.

Natural disasters, as I said above, are a different kettle of fish.
International Homo of Mystery
 
stlgph
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:35 am

Times are different these days.
Most of the time, the "exclusive" video is just handed over or submitted by the person taking it. They just want the recognition or the "fame."

No money involved.

Having worked in local and network news, you'd be surprised at how many pictures or videos of god knows whatever appear in the "in" box of email.
And sometimes, it's the luck of the draw at which organization gets it first -- sometimes people like a certain station or network, so they send it there.

Then sometimes what happens is someone notices the email come in and runs with it - or they miss it entirely in the in box, the person sending it in gets upset it's not being shown, and then sends it off to another station or network where someone picks up on it.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: You Filmed A Crash, Do You Sell Footage To Press?

Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:15 pm

Slightly off topic but also probably why there seems to be only one photographer at a considerable distance away. Aviation enthusiasts aren't well received here in the US by local airports. I think there was another thread about paparazzi at LAX being acceptable but taking aircraft pictures makes you suspicious. One form of voyeurism is definitely more tolerated in our society for better or worse. I was watching Airport 24/7 and the security director seemed to have some serious attitude about if you don't work here (MIA), aren't flying here or picking someone up you have no business being here. Now I can think of a few reasons I've been at commercial airports that had nothing to do with those functions but were completely legit in a non spotting way. (Airlines don't have ticketing offices so guess were you have to go sometimes. Once I went when the airport invited the public in to see some new pre security infrastructure. Oh and the public was invited with severe restrictions to see Solar Impulse here.) Still that attitude seems to be the problem instead of realizing spotters can be an asset.

BTW there are a lot of Pulitzer prize winning photographs of deadly scenes. I don't think many of those photojournalists are giving the prize or the cash to the families but I could be wrong.

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