CO764
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Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:30 pm

Around 2 hours ago (17:15 Paris time) one of the many "Intercités" trains connecting Paris with the city of Limoges in central France with 350-400 people on board derailed at high speed in the busy commuter station of Brétigny sur Orge, some 20 minutes south of Paris. The train was scheduled to leave the Gare d'Austerlitz in Paris at 16h53. The French television station BFM TV is reporting at least 6 dead with 12 serious injuries of which 9 are critical. It seems that some of the deaths were electrocutions. The Gare d'Austerlitz is now closed for traffic until further notice.

It is reported that the train was composed of 6 cars, of which several are overturned. Please see first article for photos.

Detailed article in French :

http://www.liberation.fr/societe/201...ictimes-selon-la-prefecture_917901

ABC article :

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...enger-train-derails-paris-19650755

[Edited 2013-07-12 10:32:09]

[Edited 2013-07-12 10:39:10]

[Edited 2013-07-12 10:43:42]

[Edited 2013-07-12 10:51:44]

[Edited 2013-07-12 10:53:35]
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brilondon
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:52 pm

Boy, this has not been a good for transportation and its related mishaps from the OZ incident to the crash in Alaska to the train explosion in Quebec, and now for the Commuter crash in France.
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Aesma
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:01 pm

Really shocking accident, I wonder what caused it.

I often took those orange trains when I was a kid, before the line I took became high speed (TGV Atlantique).

High speed in the context of this accident should be about 130Km/h.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
I wonder what caused it.

Still too early to know but the AVUC (association of railways user) has apparently unearthed a statement from the SNCF's CEO dating from 2011 in which he qualified that railway line as sick.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
High speed in the context of this accident should be about 130Km/h.

From what I've read, it might have been 150 km/h.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:29 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
High speed in the context of this accident should be about 130Km/h.

Good, because I can't imagine that this would have ended nearly as well at 300+ km/h.

On a passenger-mile basis (and certainly on a passenger-hour basis), rail travel is one of the only modes of transport that has a similar (or even superior) safety record to aviation. An event like this is shocking.
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Francoflier
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Good, because I can't imagine that this would have ended nearly as well at 300+ km/h.

Actually, the TGV has a very good safety record when it comes to derailing. Even when it does, the shared bogie design allows it to stay upright and fairly stable throughout.

These classic, non-EMU trains with a loco and individual cars are not as safe when they get off the track, especially at high speed.

This is tragic though. It might not be related, but I hope it sheds light on the state of disrepair France's rail network has fallen into. Especially the non-high speed network.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 5):
I hope it sheds light on the state of disrepair France's rail network has fallen into.

In 2005 the Swiss Federal Institute for Technology published an audit about the state of the French national rail network and from what I've read or heard here and there over the years, it seemed the investments have since grown. Isn't it the case ?
 
CO764
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:46 pm

The first article posted (French) is being updated extremely frequently. The train was apparently at a speed of 137 km/h and the limit was 150. The derailment apparently took place at a track switch 200m before the station. Apparently there had been construction on a track switch at the station several weeks before the incident but it did not concern the track on which the train derailed. As of 22h30 Paris time, 6 people are confirmed dead, 9 are seriously injured, and 22 have minor injuries.

I have to admit that it feels slightly odd having gotten off an Intercités train in Normandy arriving from Paris around 10 minutes before the accident occurred.
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skiaplg
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:09 pm

Shocking accident for the French rail network, but as other members have mentioned, the state of the secondary rail lines in France is pretty bad. Some of the rail material is pushing on 40 years in service, and I've never known anything except the Corail trains. Fortunately, there's supposed to be investment to modernize the train lines, as well as the SNCF apparently taking the Corail trains out of service by 2020.
 
DNDTUF
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:06 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 5):
It might not be related, but I hope it sheds light on the state of disrepair France's rail network has fallen into. Especially the non-high speed network.

Not knowing or wanting to speculate about the cause of the accident, I think this is one of the major issues with the SNCF. A lot of investment is put into the LGV lines, and the regional lines, the TER, are funded in part by the regions, but the Intercités lines are quite old and ignored. The SNCF has tried to update this service with the rebranding of Corail into Intercités but some of the rolling stock is very old - especially the old carriages with green sofa style seating etc. Last year I took the train from Toulouse to Tours with a stop in Limoges and the train then continued on to Paris Austerlitz ( so I'm thinking it must be the same line) and there was a delay of 2 hours because the train had technical faults.

My thoughts go out to everyone affected by this accident especially during this holiday weekend.
 
CO764
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:14 am

This is all still chatter but the minister of transport said on BFM TV that human error was not a factor. Apparently, one of the hypotheses seems that there might have been some "tampering" with the track switch.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:02 am

A faulty part of a switch could be at the root of the accident.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:17 pm

Yep a piece of steel stitching two rails together could have separated and blocked the switch from being in the right position.

I wonder if modern/future switches could have a system of captors to check everything is correctly positioned.

There was a time when they were manned, ditto grade crossings barriers (one of my grandfathers had that job for a time).
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GrahamHill
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:05 pm

Some pictures of the accident, published in Le Figaro:

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2013/07/12/PHOec683be6-eb1d-11e2-9a13-88419670fc00-805x453.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2013/07/12/PHO85aeb5ea-eb1a-11e2-9a13-88419670fc00-805x453.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2013/07/12/PHO22b1264a-eb3c-11e2-9a13-88419670fc00-805x453.jpg

http://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2013/07/12/PHO23a86ae0-eb3c-11e2-9a13-88419670fc00-805x453.jpg

Quoting francoflier (Reply 5):
It might not be related, but I hope it sheds light on the state of disrepair France's rail network has fallen into. Especially the non-high speed network.

Indeed, it's been years we're hearing that the "secondary" rail network (i.e. not the high-speed lines) was neglected and its state was worrying. The fact that the switch may be part of the derailment tends to be a proof of it. SNCF and RFF need to act urgently.

Condolences to the families.
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:49 am

6 deads is the final number. 16 people are still in the hospital.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/20...lan-de-six-morts-est-definitif.php (in French)
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
CO764
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:39 am

I would edit the title to change '6+' to just 6 but I've already edited the first post 5 times...
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DocLightning
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:11 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 13):
Indeed, it's been years we're hearing that the "secondary" rail network (i.e. not the high-speed lines) was neglected and its state was worrying. The fact that the switch may be part of the derailment tends to be a proof of it. SNCF and RFF need to act urgently.

The difference between your country and ours is that there will be outcry and something will be done. In the USA, nothing would be done except to fix that one part of the track.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:31 pm

Apparently it happened on a double-switch just like on the kinked picture. You can see where the faulty piece was originally.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../3d/Paris_Est%2C_aiguillage_02.jpg
 
Asturias
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:07 pm

A terrible tragedy. May God bless the people who died and their families.

I have been on many trains in France, most of the time between France and Spain or París and Bruselas, without incident or ever feeling like there was any reason to doubt the infrastructure.

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Dreadnought
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:17 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Good, because I can't imagine that this would have ended nearly as well at 300 km/h.

Already happened in Germany. Over 100 dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschede_train_disaster

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
The difference between your country and ours is that there will be outcry and something will be done. In the USA, nothing would be done except to fix that one part of the track.

The difference is that US rail networks are mainly used to haul cargo, and very, very few passengers compared to European networks.

The entire US rail network serves fewer passenger/miles than Switzerland. which has, what, 5% of the US population?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_usage_statistics_by_country

With that usage, it makes no sense to spend a lot of money on track maintenance.

By the way, did anyone see this? Sickening.

http://www.europe1.fr/Faits-divers/B...sur-le-lieu-de-l-accident-1582707/

Roughly translated: dozens of "Youths" were already at the scene of the accident when the first emergency services arrived. People at first thought the "youths" were trying to help the wounded, but it became apparent that actually they were looting the dead and wounded, taking cell phones, wallets, handbags etc. They and other "youths" threw rocks at emergency services to keep them back until the police moved in more forcefully, according to several witnesses interviewed at the scene.

French Authorities have issued some weak denials about this happening, but at the same time have announced a number of related arrests.
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Aesma
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:42 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
The difference is that US rail networks are mainly used to haul cargo, and very, very few passengers compared to European networks.

Well we just saw in Québec that cargo trains can cause death and destruction, unfortunately.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
there will be outcry and something will be done

Yes, you can count on it. But I find it annoying and somewhat sad that we always have to wait for a tragedy before taking measures. And I'm not just talking about France.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
By the way, did anyone see this? Sickening.

I hope they find them and hang them by their balls.
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
AF1624
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RE: Intercity Train Derails Near Paris. 6+ Dead.

Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:01 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 22):
I hope they find them and hang them by their balls.

Same here, it's time the authorities organised a free for all. For one day everyone can knee cap those bastards.

It just goes to show that these kids really don't have any notion of what it is to be a human being in a society, or even, of what empathy is.
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