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What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:08 pm

I followed the trial closely, something I have not done heretofore with any of these nationally captivating trials. Legally speaking, it is what it is. The state failed to prove its case. But one person is dead and another’s life is destroyed. No one has truly won here. This isn’t a legal post—that’s for other threads.

But what now? About society? And us?

I’ve been thinking about this a great deal because I’m really very troubled. I know this is the last forum to even express something like this, but I had to get a few things off my chest. It’s a real shame—although predictable—that this has become some perverse referendum on race relations in America. From the get-go, this entire thing was co-opted for political purposes, from the overzealous Angela Corey, who should be faced with prosecutorial misconduct IMO, to Obama with his inane “if I had a son” comment. The police chief was cashiered because he wouldn’t prosecute, the police didn’t think it was appropriate either. The entire thing was hijacked by the race business, including the very distasteful moniker for Zimmerman “white Hispanic” by CNN (whatever the hell that means).

And in reading the torrential downpour of Tweets and comments from celebrities, athletes and pandering leftists, I shudder to think of how dumbed-down we’ve become. It’s actually not even maddening—the ignorance and unjustified anger is just flat-out saddening.

I think Eric Holder belongs in jail for his criminality, but he was correct—indirectly and unintentionally—when he made that famous comment about us being cowards about race. He’s right, but in a way he didn’t intend: we refuse to talk about the raw, honest truth and the state of the black community. We want the pound of flesh from George Zimmerman, but we don’t hold “black leaders” responsible for their racist, inflammatory and inciteful comments (see Al Sharpton and ‘Reverend’ $hakedown Jack$on, most frequently). The media can impugn, indict and ostracize anyone they choose at any time of their choosing, but won’t touch the tough issues associated with race.

Some call this a cold-blooded murder of an innocent black kid and riot in the streets, but yet there is NO mention in the mainstream media about Joshua Chellew. Does he not deserve justice as well? Or Antonio Santiago? His life is as equally valuable as that of Trayvon Martin’s was, is it not? And there’s NO talk in the MSM about black on black violence at all, which is epidemic. Based on Bureau of Justice stats, between 1976-2011, there were 279,384 black murder victims, which means that 262,621 were murdered by other blacks. In some years, it’s as high as 94%. Even though blacks make-up only 12.5-13% of the nation’s population, they account 50% (give or take) of all homicide victims. Where is the focus on this?
At the end of the day, we have a cultural problem with violence that spans race, but the black community has some very notable problems that are not dissimilar from white or Hispanic communities, but are more pronounced. And it starts with the breakdown—or non-existence—of the family unit. Now about 70% of all black births are out of wedlock. And over 50 years of affirmative action and civil rights progress hasn’t ameliorated the anger from many blacks toward whites—if anything, it might have made it worse. Education is a disaster and the predominant contemporary (note the deliberate use of the word CONTEMPORARY—because it wasn’t like this before the emergence of the welfare state) culture says being educated is not cool. The culture of rap music, misogynistic and racist lyrics, gang involvement, and our pop culture sewer just magnify this entire problem.

Our cities are burning before our very eyes. Large cities have high homicide rates and are imploding. It’s not sustainable. It can’t be. The destruction of basic values of education, morality, right and wrong, fatherhood, responsibility, have created dependency and a dependent class, when you discard the benefits of education, crime and misery follow. And here we are.

So what’s next? I sincerely would love to hear proposed solutions and ideas—political, economic, social, etc—as to how we can bridge this and come together.
 
cmf
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:57 pm

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
including the very distasteful moniker for Zimmerman %u201Cwhite Hispanic%u201D by CNN (whatever the hell that means).

Seems you suggest CNN created white hispanic, do you?

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
but yet there is NO mention in the mainstream media about Joshua Chellew. Does he not deserve justice as well? Or Antonio Santiago?

Why do you suggest these cases are equal to Zimmarman/Martin? I have not seen anyone suggest the perpetrators were justified in what they did and should go free.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
And it starts with the breakdown%u2014or non-existence%u2014of the family unit

Does it? How do you support this?

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
So what%u2019s next? I sincerely would love to hear proposed solutions and ideas%u2014political, economic, social, etc%u2014as to how we can bridge this and come together.

Now this is good. Sadly I do not have the answer. I have a few things I think will help but I am not under the illusion it will fix it.

The first thing is to realize that this is not something that will solved quickly. My guess is that it takes minimum two generations.

Second is to deal with the much higher unemployment there is in the black community. It means that in many cases other people will be treated ways they don't deserve. Sorry, but it is needed to move forward.

Third, and this is extremely difficult, skin color must be as unimportant as hair color. It is OK to use it to describe a person for sake of identification. It is OK to use it in jokes with the understanding it is a joke. We must loose the idea that Asians study hard and can't drive. Same needs to happen with prejudice about nationalities. Something that is rampant here on a.net I don't know how to make this happen but I am convinced education is part of it.

Nothing but a very simplistic start.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
WestJet747
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:07 pm

You've already made up your mind on so many things and introduced so many side-rants in your OP that I don't think it's even possible from the onset to have a productive discussion.

I really don't want to dignify this thread with a response, but it has to be said there's a major flaw in your reasoning: What does blacks killing blacks have to do with race relations in America? Isn't that an intra-race matter versus an inter-race one? If the number of black people killed by non-black people is as low as 6% in some years, does that even present a race relations issue?



Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Now about 70% of all black births are out of wedlock.

"Out of wedlock" doesn't mean "single-parent household" by the way. You would be better off providing a statistic for the latter, since unwed couple can still raise a child just the same as a couple who are recognized by the state.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
the very distasteful moniker for Zimmerman “white Hispanic”

"White hispanic" was a thing long before the Zimmerman trial. It refers to a white person of hispanic heritage. The rapper Pitbull has often discussed in interviews his hispanic roots and upbringing despite him "looking more white" than many caucasians.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Our cities are burning before our very eyes. Large cities have high homicide rates and are imploding. It’s not sustainable. It can’t be. The destruction of basic values of education, morality, right and wrong, fatherhood, responsibility, have created dependency and a dependent class, when you discard the benefits of education, crime and misery follow. And here we are.

Except that crime as a whole is on the decrease in the US.




Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics
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fr8mech
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:47 pm

As I'm about to go on vacation with very limited connectivity, if any, I will leave you with this:

So long as there is profit in racial discord, there will be those who sow racial discord. We all know the names. They crawl out of their gilded halls everytime they think they can make hay out of a situation.

They know what buttons to push. They know, that at a very basic level, they are immune from any real lasting ridicule (and prosecution) because they will just turn their organization on their accusers. They know they have willing accomplices.

They pick at the scab of racism in the United States and do their darndest to keep it bleeding fresh painful blood.

Is there racism in the US? Of course there is, but these race baiters make sure it continues to exist instead of helping to mitigate its effects. They help spawn more racism instead of helping to heal. They do nothing to end racism because it would take away their livilihood and the reason for their 15 minutes.

They disgust me.

It is up to us to ignore those idiots and raise our children correctly. Raise them to understand racisim and reject it. And more importantly, teach them to recognize real racism (not the brand peddled by the race mongers) and challenge it when they see it.

See you all in about 8 days.

Stay low, stay safe.
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DocLightning
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:17 pm

As a gay man, I often hear a lot of: "Just because I don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle doesn't make me a homophobe."

Yes it does. In fact, that's the exact definition of homophobia.

If we are going to address race relations, the first thing that we are going to have to do is accept that racism DOES exist. And we are going to have to accept that many of us are racist, even those of us who wish we weren't. I am a horrible racist, although I accept it about myself and thus try to modulate my behavior with that knowledge in mind. It's my way of ensuring that, although I am not color-blind, and although I have racist tendencies, I can expect it out of myself and thus I can curb any resulting behavior.

I've seen it first-hand. My friend Folahan, who is quite Black (not African-American...he's Nigerian by ethnicity) was driving me somewhere one day. We were pulled over. Now, this is a Stanford-educated man who doesn't wear low-hanging jeans or an oversized baseball cap or a big diamond earring. Why were we pulled over? The officer could not give a single reason why he pulled him over. All he said when he walked up to the door was: "I need you to get out of the vehicle." Then, he looked in and saw me in the passenger seat and said, "Actually, wait a minute." He went back to his cruiser for about ten minutes and then came back. When Folahan asked why he'd been pulled over, the officer said that there had been a mistaken identity. I wrote down his badge number and filed a complaint.

This happens ALL the time. Black people get pulled over for no reason other than being black. And if that happens, then you can imagine what other sorts of racism there is.

So the first step is going to be to get rid of this: "I'm not a racist" denialism.

I am NOT saying that every complaint from the African-American community about racism is valid. But to minimize or deny all such complaints is even more invalid.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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n318ea
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:30 pm

Racism DOES exist. Any other 17 year old black person killed in black on black violence wouldn't have made the News. Look up Chicago statistics for verification.
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StarAC17
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:36 pm

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
I’ve been thinking about this a great deal because I’m really very troubled. I know this is the last forum to even express something like this, but I had to get a few things off my chest. It’s a real shame—although predictable—that this has become some perverse referendum on race relations in America.

It comes from a failure to call a spade a spade on this entire issue which is something that was finally being done on CNN last night. The panel on Anderson Cooper called this pretty much perfectly, the criminal justice system is biased against minorities blacks get harsher sentences than hispanics and both get bigger punishments for the exact same crime that a white person does on an aggregate. All DA's across the US that charge minorities with larger penalties than whites need to be called out on it.

Discrimination also is occurring when people who do studies for job applications to determine the hiring practices of a company. An example being candidates with a white sounding name get called for interviews at a much higher margin than those of black or hispanic sounding names given identical qualifications.

And finally it has to be acknowledged that if Zimmerman was black and Martin was white or hispanic then he would have likely been arrested immediately and not after 44 days.

These things (that do happen) need to be acknowledged called out and eventually changed if there is any hope of improving race relations.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
From the get-go, this entire thing was co-opted for political purposes, from the overzealous Angela Corey, who should be faced with prosecutorial misconduct IMO,

Perhaps but I do stand by the fact that she overcharged Zimmerman as there was no evidence that GZ left his car with the intent of shooting and killing TM.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
to Obama with his inane “if I had a son” comment.

Not really a necessary comment for this thread and the only ones outraged by this comment largely are the ones who think that racism in America is a thing of the past. The whole point of Obama saying this is that this could have been any father's child.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
And in reading the torrential downpour of Tweets and comments from celebrities, athletes and pandering leftists, I shudder to think of how dumbed-down we’ve become. It’s actually not even maddening—the ignorance and unjustified anger is just flat-out saddening.

Had GZ been convicted there would be just as many tweets from the other side. Alex Jones would have probably said that GZ was a liberal plan to take our guns.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
I think Eric Holder belongs in jail for his criminality, but he was correct—indirectly and unintentionally—when he made that famous comment about us being cowards about race. He’s right, but in a way he didn’t intend: we refuse to talk about the raw, honest truth and the state of the black community.

If you want to have a civil discussion then leave the opinions on people whom you don't like out of it. You would be among the first to bear fangs if someone thinks GWB and Cheney should be locked away for starting a bogus war.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Our cities are burning before our very eyes. Large cities have high homicide rates and are imploding. It’s not sustainable. It can’t be. The destruction of basic values of education, morality, right and wrong, fatherhood, responsibility, have created dependency and a dependent class, when you discard the benefits of education, crime and misery follow. And here we are.

They really aren't, there are violent pockets of any city. Chicago is actually doing fine and is a really nice city, but the south side is a problem for crime which the politicians are doing very little to fix, education dollars are actually being pulled and not given to these areas and that just makes the cycle worse. As we all know money attracts the attention of the politicians attention and these communities don't have a lot and no one is willing to invest in them.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
I've seen it first-hand. My friend Folahan, who is quite Black (not African-American...he's Nigerian by ethnicity) was driving me somewhere one day. We were pulled over. Now, this is a Stanford-educated man who doesn't wear low-hanging jeans or an oversized baseball cap or a big diamond earring. Why were we pulled over? The officer could not give a single reason why he pulled him over.

Reminds me of these clips from the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW9pklBXqk4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQtDXxXyPYQ&list=PL3C1E4EEEB3B5CE5F
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cmf
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:08 pm

Quoting n318ea (Reply 6):
Any other 17 year old black person killed in black on black violence wouldn't have made the News. Look up Chicago statistics for verification.

Lets not kid ourselves. The circumstances in the Zimmerman case are not typical.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 7):
Perhaps but I do stand by the fact that she overcharged Zimmerman as there was no evidence that GZ left his car with the intent of shooting and killing TM.

I agree he was overcharged and he probably had no intention to shoot until just before he reached for the gun. That said it was his actions that created the situation leading up to the shooting. Anyone calling for personal responsibility should be up over arms that he got out free.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
futurepilot16
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:20 am

RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:37 pm

Quoting n318ea (Reply 6):
Racism DOES exist. Any other 17 year old black person killed in black on black violence wouldn't have made the News. Look up Chicago statistics for verification.

Because it's the same circumstances right?  

This is gonna sound cold and callous, but I personally could care less about gang bangers and drug dealers dying in gun violence, as far as i'm concerned they deserve it. But you're confused if you think innocent kids dying in the crossfire don't get national attention...in fact, why don't you follow your own advise and look up the shooting of Hadiya Pendleton in Chicago, which garnered national attention.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:44 pm

Obama has set America back decades in terms of 'race relations' by injecting himself prematurely into situations like the Zimmerman self defense shooting case. Perhaps Obama's time as a community organizer/agitator makes it difficult for him to sit on the sidelines while the legal system processes these cases. Either way, I agree that as long as there is money or political gain to be had by race baiting and agitating, America will be the worse for it. I know it's hard to believe for some, but not every interaction, transaction or criminal act involves race.
 
BN747
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:53 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 1):

No you wouldn't. Your tirade belies the fact that you do not want to have anything remotely resembling an honest discussion on race relations in America.

Agreed, given the OP's history, but maybe he's sincere..

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 3):
You've already made up your mind on so many things and introduced so many side-rants in your OP that I don't think it's even possible from the onset to have a productive discussion.

I agree here to the letter.

But for as long as I've seen you ..and you me here, the race thing has been a point of contention - and in all that time, i've never seen you pose a question attempting to address the subject matter in this way..so I'll prove whatever limited input I can before the silly gene kicks in on some who don't know a sincere discussion when they see one.

Airliners.net itself has become more and more diversified in the time I've been here. It used to be heavily white and ultra conservative and extremely homophobic when I joined, many of those pressing that agenda have long parted. A sincere discussion of this nature is long overdue and I commend Slider for opening up about how the issue in the way he did. But he must also share some of the blame for is anxiety, discomfort and confusion. Look at your posts over the years regarding the subject - see if whether or not anything about you has changed. If nothing has, you should have a problem, but something is clearly at work for you express such frustration re:race.

I will used the 'side rant' sticker where appropriate.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
I followed the trial closely, something I have not done heretofore with any of these nationally captivating trials.

I followed this, the Simpson Trial and Rod King Police Trial with great tenacity as each had a profound effect on the nation before, during and after. Huge!

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
The state failed to prove its case.

From a legal stand point..it did.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
But one person is dead and another’s life is destroyed. No one has truly won here.

Yep totally true in part, because the defendant cleverly 'gamed' the system, he put 'Stand Your Ground' to the test, covered all his tracks (got caught lying) but made sure no one was around to refute his version...the perfect crime.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
It’s a real shame—although predictable—that this has become some perverse referendum on race relations in America.

Again you mean.

The Rodney King/LAPD case, trial did that

Then the OJ Simpson Trial did it again.

Now the George Zimmerman Trial did it a third time.

and count on there being a FOURTH and a fifth and maybe a sixth...

...because Americans don't learn from past mistakes or should I say they learn very slowly. And take everything for granted.

Look at the three trials in a case and effect (on the nation subsequently).

King/LAPD -
Black Motorist beaten brutally by white LAPD Officers (see youtube).
.... confirmed what Black America had said for decades about thuggish Police Brutality towards them - Racial profiling was born out of this trial. The (Warren) Christopher Commision was charged with addressing America's ills re:unjust treatment by the law of Black Americans

result - upon LAPD's acquittal after worldwide viewing of King being beaten senselessly, that verdict said Blacks could be beaten unmercifully by the law with impunity...riots set the nation on fire. The Warren Comm. Report partially implemented by largely discarded. Because as I said..we do not learn from our mistakes very well. It fizzled because authority does not like being told it is wrong.

MEDIA: Nationally, the media showed the King Beating endlessly, but pundits would NOT openly and viciously condemn the unapologetic LAPD as they deserved..the Media was tight lipped. Some exceptions were people like Phil Donohue and Jerry Springer.

----------------

OJ. Simpson Trial:
Black Wealthy Famous Male accused of brutal killing his White ex-wife and her male friend Ron Goldman.

If was the 1st time in American History, that 'Black America' saw someone like them (as far as being black goes only) who had the financial means to go toe-to-toe in the American Justice System Courts..it has never happened before. Many Blacks did not care if he were guilty or not..just that they wanted to a Black person take on the racist American Justice system and win.

Exactly how the most extreme whites feel about Zimmerman today - they don't care he lied, they don't care if he's really guilty..it was a black kid who looked like thug rapper and he needs to be gone...end of story.


Was it wrong for blacks to think/feel that way about Simpson, as in not care if he did it not? Yes and No. Yes because murder is acceptable in a civilized Society. NO because Society had not be civil to them so why should they be civil towards a system that completely disrespects their rights as a people? They had no faith in the system as is and had nothing to lose and everything to gain if the system gave them a win. And nearly all Black Jury found Simpson innocent and in large part to the testimony of Dr. Henry Lee disclosing horrific police work which was an indictment of the LAPD itself.. the worse and sloppiest gather of evidence ever along with suggestion that Det. Mark Furhman hadeven planted evidence - blew the case.

Did the racial make up of an all black jury have any impact on that case? Only a fool would say ' NO'... if that Jury had been All White...would he have been acquitted? Not a chance in hell! He'd would have been found guilty of two murder 1s.

Video of worldwide reactions - esp. the one in the Circuit City store where when the verdict was announce - whites were completely stunned..standing right next to them, Black customers were absolutely estatic! (see youtube -along with white salesman telling Blacks to be quiet).

Media: Nearly All Media had condemn Simpson, few if any gave him the sliver of presumed innocent. ALL of the guys over in the Zimmerman thread saying 'we'd rather see 10 guilty men go free than one innocent one got to jail' CANNOT bring themselves to say that about O.J. Simpson...their attitudes on race - towards Blacks, will not allow it. Simple as that. Even Geraldo Rivera went disgustingly bonkers disclosing his own animus towards blacks after appearing to be someone liberal in his prior views. He tried to tone it down..but the damage to his brand was done.

If you're white person today still getting incensed about the OJ Acquittal in 2013...it's race that's eating at you because I assure you do not know the facts presented in the trial. And even worse than that, it would shock you actually know what was at the very center of this trial that never came out in court - local insider info only.

That's the impact of Race Reality in America.

The Zimmerman Trial.

We know the story..but what white America doesn't see here and did not see in any of the other two examples
or does not care to see is all the race history that led up to these trials - for blacks injustice was expected at every turn..whites had no problems with 'their justice' as it has always worked for them..until O.J. and in their minds, it was that all black jury thing and to this very day..even with Zimmerman and his white jury - neither side trust the other in exclusive extremes. Translation...we've got a long what to go.

MEDIA: For the 1st time in American History, Media incorporated the viewpoint of Blacks in a nationwide case. And did so in a balanced manner (except for Fox News, were Trayvon a choirboy...maybe, just maybe they would have cut him some slack). Maybe just maybe some progress in National coverage of minority concerns - and yes it was brought on by demonstrations and outcries of injustice. At least someone gets that aside from the Egyptians...when something's not right....do something. The system WILL NOT correct itself. Look at how chicken sh!t we all were when the snuck the Patriot Act thru...we should have gone Egypt on Washington..but everyone was scared to death for fear of appearing 'un-American.

Those who draw a blank on race history..will turn and ask 'Why is this a Big Deal'.. your deficit and gaps in historical understanding should explain that.. your world is not the same as people constantly being harassed by the police or unbalanced Justice system when it comes to the administration of justice itself.

White caught with weed...let go
Black caught with wee...go to jail.

White citizens are aware of the law disparity and will intentionally exploit it. Again, Charles Stuart, Susan Smith, now George Zimmerman,.



--------------------

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
From the get-go, this entire thing was co-opted for political purposes, from the overzealous Angela Corey, who should be faced with prosecutorial misconduct IMO, to Obama with his inane “if I had a son” comment.

see above - side rant point.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
The police chief was cashiered because he wouldn’t prosecute, the police didn’t think it was appropriate either.

Look at who the police we're talking about, the poor State prosecution was born right there from piss poor police handling from minute one.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
The entire thing was hijacked by the race business, including the very distasteful moniker for Zimmerman “white Hispanic” by CNN (whatever the hell that means).

A lack of Race Knowledge again, 'White Hispanic has been around for quite sometime and really came alive during the Lyle and Erik Menendez trial.

But many Caucasian looking Hispanics like Zimmerman prefer identifying themselves as just 'white' they see it as advantageous...that is until he got his ass into a sling, it became and advantage to not be see as white but as Hispanic to counter racial profiling. As read aloud in the trial when it was testified to Zimmerman's police application in Virgina...He, Zimmerman 'checked' white. Not White Hispanic nor Hispanic. He can now go back to checking 'white' and he will because he is indeed a liar and fraud.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):

And in reading the torrential downpour of Tweets and comments from celebrities, athletes and pandering leftists

Side Rant point.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
I shudder to think of how dumbed-down we’ve become. It’s actually not even maddening—the ignorance and unjustified anger is just flat-out saddening.

Sorta side rant...not sure what to make of that..

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
I think Eric Holder belongs in jail for his criminality, but he was correct—indirectly and unintentionally—when he made that famous comment about us being cowards about race. He’s righ

He's meaning in the same way I see it.

When racial elements are present and some 'person' leaps up and says

'It's not about race..."

1 - it's a sure bet that person is the least qualified person even know what is and isn't about race.

2 - it most likely is indeed about race and race had everything to do with it.

..and yes Holder is correct MOST of us are cowards about speaking about race. I'm not, I find the it quite interesting to observe, it's a whole other human interaction .. good and bad on so many levels.

If you're married..and you're not 'Honest'...what eventually happens? It comes crumbling down.
America is built on racial divide, these new generations upon generations do improve a situation that had nothing to do with..until they become taxpaying, child rearing adults..then they become their parents and progress ceases.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
e want the pound of flesh from George Zimmerman, but we don’t hold “black leaders” responsible for their racist, inflammatory and inciteful comments (see Al Sharpton and ‘Reverend’ $hakedown Jack$on, most frequently).

The racist hallmark calling card if their ever was one, followed by, it's Affirmative Action causing the problems and the iron clad denial.."It's not racist, I've got a black friend or my black friend agrees with me.. newsflash, he does..but not when he's with his 'other black friends'...

Quoting slider (Thread starter):
The media can impugn, indict and ostracize anyone they choose at any time of their choosing, but won’t touch the tough issues associated with race.

explain... black don't control the media until they hit the streets.

Quoting slider (Thread starter):

Some call this a cold-blooded murder of an innocent black kid and riot in the streets, but yet there is NO mention in the mainstream media about Joshua Chellew
Quoting slider (Thread starter):
Does he not deserve justice as well? Or Antonio Santiago?

Yes they do, both heart-retching stories but you are trying to equate this will centuries of racial carnage and deaths...when you've had 100 years (and that's on the short side of things)... you may then say 'everything's equal'..we are not there yet.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
I've seen it first-hand. My friend Folahan, who is quite Black (not African-American...he's Nigerian by ethnicity) was driving me somewhere one day. We were pulled over. Now, this is a Stanford-educated man who doesn't wear low-hanging jeans or an oversized baseball cap or a big diamond earring. Why were we pulled over? The officer could not give a single reason why he pulled him over. All he said when he walked up to the door was: "I need you to get out of the vehicle." Then, he looked in and saw me in the passenger seat and said, "Actually, wait a minute." He went back to his cruiser for about ten minutes and then came back. When Folahan asked why he'd been pulled over, the officer said that there had been a mistaken identity. I wrote down his badge number and filed a complaint.

A one time observation that is the everyday occurrence of a black male constant harassment..unending. And when starts as a child. why should they want accept a society who vanguard of law treats them with such constant indignities?

A gay male can some what relate, but only on a limited bases, he doesn't look at his skin and see a reminder of why he's harassed.

But everyone who doubts how bad it is...needs a few hundred of these experiences to get it sink in.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
the first thing that we are going to have to do is accept that racism DOES exist. And we are going to have to accept that many of us are racist, even those of us who wish we weren't. I am a horrible racist, although I accept it about myself and thus try to modulate my behavior with that knowledge in mind.

That's an RU list endorsement right there and the honest truth... few here will ever own up to that. Kudos!

BN747
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DocLightning
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:44 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
A gay male can some what relate, but only on a limited bases, he doesn't look at his skin and see a reminder of why he's harassed.

It's a fair point. But no different than antisemitism in that respect. All discrimination has its particular differences. Being an invisible minority has its pluses...and its minuses.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
But everyone who doubts how bad it is...needs a few hundred of these experiences to get it sink in.

Bingo. The racist does not define racism. The object of the racism knows it when he sees it.

Are there falls calls? Sure. But that does not mean that there is no racism.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Boeing717200
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:46 am

Easy. Stop making the gross assumption that because two people of different races are involved in a conflict that it is automatically racially motivated. There's a lot wrong with the whole Zimmerman/ Martin incident. There is a lot more wrong with the people external to the event and their motivations and what it has caused.
 
stratosphere
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:57 am

Quoting roswell41 (Reply 10):
Obama has set America back decades in terms of 'race relations' by injecting himself prematurely into situations like the Zimmerman self defense shooting case. Perhaps Obama's time as a community organizer/agitator makes it difficult for him to sit on the sidelines while the legal system processes these cases. Either way, I agree that as long as there is money or political gain to be had by race baiting and agitating, America will be the worse for it. I know it's hard to believe for some, but not every interaction, transaction or criminal act involves race.

  

Yep funny thing is the media is feeding the frenzy that now young black youth will have to be in fear of the white man after the Zimmerman verdict when the fact remains that 94% of young black males who will be killed by violence will be at the hands of other young black males but no one wants to go there. The Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons make their living off keeping the race baiting going.
 
cmf
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:13 am

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 14):
Yep funny thing is the media is feeding the frenzy that now young black youth will have to be in fear of the white man after the Zimmerman verdict when the fact remains that 94% of young black males who will be killed by violence will be at the hands of other young black males but no one wants to go there.

Then why was Zimmerman so worried about a black guy looking around "suspiciously"? Two thirds of all burglaries are made by whites.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
SXDFC
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:14 am

It took me more than an hour to figure out an answer to this, and this is what I have to say IMHO....

If you look up the term "Race" it defies as a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by anatomical, cultural, ethnic, genetic, geographical,etc. However this term is a victim of a double standard that is all too alive in America. People use this to their benefit when something does not work in their favor, and others use it as a "slang term" to make their music videos and tv shows more appealing.. Many people forget that we all look the same on the inside.

There are also some people who tend to forget that "Racism" isn't just a black and white issue, I myself am Caucasian and because I don't tan very well, I've been called "Albino, Q-Tip,etc" by a white, black and even Spanish people, at the end of the day not only does it hurt, but it ruins a persons self-esteem, however its only talked about when there is a reason to exploit it. The only way things get better is when people show some respect towards one another, and unfortunately that only tends to last for a short period of time after a massive tragedy ( i.e 9/11, Sandy Hook, Boston, etc ).

My mother taught me something when I was younger, and that's to TREAT OTHERS HOW YOU WANT TO BE TREATED, and each day I do just that, and I found out 9 times out of 10 if you are kind and respectful towards one another, they will treat you with respect in the end.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:42 am

Quoting roswell41 (Reply 10):
Obama has set America back decades in terms of 'race relations' by injecting himself prematurely into situations like the Zimmerman self defense shooting case.

I don't see how we're set back decades in terms of race relations. We often say "You never understand a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes", so why do we criticize others when they do so? Speaking as if Trayvon was his son is something any parent would do, especially a parent whose child can be bullied or profiled just for who he/she is.

Obama's most recent remark urging restraint is something I would expect from a politician. He did not take any side, but of course, be that as it may, some people will criticize him whether he speaks or remains silent.

Like Doc said, racism exists in the US and to think otherwise is simply fooling yourself.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Maverick623
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:48 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 13):
Easy. Stop making the gross assumption that because two people of different races are involved in a conflict that it is automatically racially motivated.

Not only that, but we can't assume that racism is a one way street. IMO, there is just as much (and please pardon me for these terms) black-on-white, black-on-brown, brown-on-black, and brown-on-white racism... and then there's Asians and Middle Easterners thrown in there too.

Not only that, but new terms have come into play. MLK's dream was that people would be judged by "the content of their character". Well, now we call that anti-cultural or xenophobic.

There are three groups that perpetrate such ideas: the actual racists/xenophobes, those who will use any excuse not to take responsibility for themselves, and those who profit from it all.


To tie it into the Trayvon Martin case, it is pretty sad (and very telling) that mass media and others are calling Zimmerman a racist for no other reason than Martin was black, and gloss over that Martin allegedly called Zimmerman a "cracker".
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
stratosphere
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:14 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Then why was Zimmerman so worried about a black guy looking around "suspiciously"? Two thirds of all burglaries are made by whites.

Maybe not in his neighborhood. I know in mine it is overwhelmingly blacks comitting those crimes. I never used to think anything about it until I was held up at gunpoint by 4 young black males right in front of my own house. So do I profile now? You bet your ass I do. Now I wouldn't go as far as Zimmerman did. But if I see anyone acting suspicious and they do not nessessarily have to be black either I am just more aware of my surroundings now. Bottom line as a percentage blacks disproportionatley commit crimes more than any other race. Sorry if it offends but it is what it is. Until black parents start taking responsiblity for raising their kids instead of just letting them run the streets to join gangs and become hood rats they are going to continue to be profiled.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:43 am

I don't have any magical solutions to the "race issue" in the US. And I'll freely admit that I harbor some racist thoughts and tendencies. I grew up in an area that's 95% white, and while I wouldn't call it a racist area, you tend to gravitate toward that which you know. It's actually quite funny to me, because I'm not even white!

When I moved to LA, it was quite a culture shock. Took me many years to adjust. I now live in a more mixed area than I used to, and I really like it. I still gravitate toward the nicer areas - and yes, those areas tend to be majority-white - but I'm light-years ahead of where I was 10 years ago. And really, there's nothing wrong with gravitating toward nicer areas.

I don't even particularly like hanging out with other Indian-Americans that much, and I've never dated Indian-American girls. There's nothing wrong with Indian-Americans, but it's never been my scene. I've never had the need or desire to specifically hang out with my ethnic group.

Regarding Zimmerman, it seems to me that the jury found the correct verdict. I don't pretend to know any more about the circumstances of the killing than anyone else does, but I'd wager quite a bit that there certainly was reasonable doubt.

For reference, I'm guessing the OJ jurors also found the correct verdict, though I was younger and not paying as much attention then. It was very easy to say "OMG, how could they do that???" But given the police, um, errors, they probably just couldn't convict. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.

Back to Zimmerman - people seem to be outraged that no one is being held accountable for TM's death. I don't understand that outrage. Holding someone - anyone - accountable should never enter the discussion. The justice system is there to determine whether a particular person - in this case Zimmerman - is accountable, not to see if we can fit accountability to Zimmerman by any means necessary. I hear people saying some variant of "it's sad that no one is being held responsible" with reference to the verdict. Come on now - that's just a terrible argument to use in order to say that one particular person should have been convicted. It's an emotional, revenge-based argument.

Others say that Zimmerman escalated the confrontation. Perhaps he did, and perhaps he should have been charged with a crime for it (I don't know Florida law). But obviously not 2nd-degree murder or manslaughter. Unfortunately, that's what they tried him for, and they lost (justifiably, I think).

Anyway. You're probably never going to be able to stop people from judging each other without really knowing each other. I judge all the time, based on all sorts of different criteria. What you can stop, or at least reduce, is people acting on those judgments. My initial judgments have quite often been wrong, and I'm usually very happy about that.

I hope this makes some semblance of sense, because I'm way too tired to read it over.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
cmf
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:59 am

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 19):
Maybe not in his neighborhood.

You're missing the point. He was using statistics to justify profiling. By that ,poor, standard you should look for white people in relation to burglaries.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 20):
people seem to be outraged that no one is being held accountable for TM's death. I don't understand that outrage.

Before you I have not seen any of this. IMO it is what Dear Coquette in her typical to the point described as:

"Any system that would allow George Zimmerman to legally carry a concealed weapon, legally hunt down a teenager he felt was suspicious, legally confront that teenager against the instruction of authorities, and then legally use deadly force in the resulting altercation — I mean, come on — any system that would legally allow all of that is fucking broken."
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Maverick623
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:31 am

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 19):
Bottom line as a percentage blacks disproportionatley commit crimes more than any other race. Sorry if it offends but it is what it is.

Careful.

Black people are arrested and convicted disproportionately more than any other race. No doubt do to racial biases like this:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 19):
Until black parents start taking responsiblity for raising their kids instead of just letting them run the streets to join gangs and become hood rats they are going to continue to be profiled.

Right... because White parents and Hispanic parents never do anything wrong, and Black parents can never do anything right.

Need I remind you that one of the most violent gangs, MS13, are Salvadorian? Los Zetas are Mexican, there's the Aryan Brotherhood... need I go on?

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):
"Any system that would allow George Zimmerman to legally carry a concealed weapon, legally hunt down a teenager he felt was suspicious, legally confront that teenager against the instruction of authorities, and then legally use deadly force in the resulting altercation — I mean, come on — any system that would legally allow all of that is fucking broken."

Cool story. Too bad that's not what happened. Good use of hyperbole and twisting of the facts, with a nice touch of anti-gun rehtoric and extreme socialism.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
cmf
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:46 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
Too bad that's not what happened.

What is factually incorrect? It was Zimmerman who kept following Martin thus causing the confrontation. And how in the world is the above socialist? Already down to the stereotyping...
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Maverick623
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:04 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
What is factually incorrect?

"Legally confront that teenager against the instruction of authorities".

911 dispatchers are not "authorities", in the sense they can not give orders. Also, after he had been told that it wasn't a good idea to follow, he stopped following.

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
It was Zimmerman who kept following Martin thus causing the confrontation.

Yep, you keep saying this. Just like if the rape victim hadn't flashed her boobs, she never would have caused the rapist to take notice.

Just because you "cause" something doesn't mean your legally responsible.

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
And how in the world is the above socialist?

I actually should have used the term "statist". The individual has no rights or interest in keeping the peace or protecting their community or themselves. Let the state worry about everything.

What's funny about her "broken system" comment, is that if "the authorities" were as good and wise as she wants them to be, there would be no need for anyone to follow anyone, because the previous burglaries would have already been solved and/or prevented.

Just because a system isn't perfect doesn't make it broken.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
sccutler
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:15 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
It was Zimmerman who kept following Martin thus causing the confrontation.

As I understood the testimony, this is not correct; was this not a key issue in the defense case?
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cmf
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:23 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
911 dispatchers are not "authorities", in the sense they can not give orders. Also, after he had been told that it wasn't a good idea to follow, he stopped following.

No-one said they gave orders. They instructed him not to follow. Look at the reenactment and it is clear he didn't stop.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
Yep, you keep saying this.

It is Zimmerman who said he kept following. Even though he made up the amazing story about continuing following only because he was in the area. Again. Watch the reenactment.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
Just because you "cause" something doesn't mean your legally responsible.

Right, gun owners should not be responsible for what their actions cause, just everyone else.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
Just because a system isn't perfect doesn't make it broken.

WOW!!! That is the most circular justification I have seen in ages. She is saying that Zimmerman is responsible for the actions he set roling. That no working system can absolve such stupid behaviour against other people without consequences.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
cmf
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:53 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 25):
As I understood the testimony, this is not correct; was this not a key issue in the defense case?

It was Zimmerman who decided he didn't like the looks of Martin. It was Zimmerman who followed Martin, picking up the trail three different times. I do not think that justifies attacking someone, if that is what Martin did, but it sure means Zimmerman caused it to happen and thus is responsible to anyone who believe that actions cause reactions.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
seb146
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:03 am

I really don't think there is anything we can do until people quit the whole "us vs. them" mentality. The whole notion that if one or a few do it, the whole block does it. I am trying to make comparisons but it all comes out sounding incredibly racist. My point is: don't assume anything about anyone.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:52 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Anyone calling for personal responsibility should be up over arms that he got out free.

I'm gonna disagree with you here. I think too many people are judging GZ by what they think the law should be. I've said more than once there needs to be some serious gun reform (I think my ideas are pretty reasonable, but that's for another thread) and self defense laws need to be redefined a bit. But what I or you think the law should be is irrelevant... he needs to be judged according to the law at the time.


There are serious racial issues in America we need to deal with. I think too many people focus on the extreme 10%s (the people that think everything and anything is somehow racist / the people that think no form of racism exists at all.) What kills me is if you are a minority born in a bad part of town, it's almost impossible for you to amount to anything. Someone will always be able to point to an event or two that they "shouldn't have done, serves you right" but the reality is, every single person has done something wrong or made mistakes... in white suburbia, that lack of judgement may not end your life, throw you behind bars, etc.

It is quite easy to 'buckle down' and set things straight for a few months or even a couple years but pretty much impossible for a whole lifetime. What people need to accept is if YOU were born as a minority in the inner city, you'd most likely make the same mistakes people around you make and not amount to as much. The work ethic and good judgement that you think might prevent that from happening would not be there... socialization dictates more than you know about yourself
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cmf
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:33 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 29):
I think too many people are judging GZ by what they think the law should be.

I consider this a confirmation that the laws need to be clearer.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 29):
anything is somehow racist

Have I suggested it was racist? I have consistently said his fault was to follow Martin and repeatedly pick up the trail when Martin tried to get way. To me it is provoking and probably stalking. The question about stalking, as I see it, is if willful relates to the the intent of the person following or the impression portrayed to the person being followed.

Why did Zimmerman not walk away when confronted by Martin? My first comment about this case was asking why Martin should have walked away but not Zimmerman? The more I've learned the more relevant this question has become and I really can't see how Zimmerman can be considered without guilt and thus the laws need to be corrected so that it is clear it isn't acceptable to provoke in this manner.

Florida's self defence law mentions provoking as reason to lose the right to self defense. Apparently it needs to better describe what provoke means.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 29):
What people need to accept is if YOU were born as a minority in the inner city, you'd most likely make the same mistakes people around you make and not amount to as much.

What people need to understand, but never accept, is that a) doing the same mistakes will have different effect based on where you live. b) Will have different effect based on if you look white or black in the same neighborhood. (usually but not always to the benefit of the white)

But I don't think racism is a major issue in this case. While I do think Martin being black did raise suspicion with Zimmerman I think it was related to that many of the previous burglaries had been by blacks. I think a bigger part was how he was dressed and how he walked in the rain.

In my opinion the jury reached wrong conclusion, in no small part because the prosecution did a poor job, and this should be corrected by making the laws clearer.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
stratosphere
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:37 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
Need I remind you that one of the most violent gangs, MS13, are Salvadorian? Los Zetas are Mexican, there's the Aryan Brotherhood... need I go on?

Yep thats why in LA or the desert SW they are profiled as well.. Hey stereotypes sometimes fit when detectives are looking for a serial killer they usually are never looking for a black or hispanic it is always usually a white male. Profiling sucks but it is used like it or not even with whites depending on the crime. In my "hood" blacks are the usual suspects in most crimes in others cities it may be mexican or whatever. I am just saying in most inner cities gangs are either black or latino haven't really ever seen white gangs. I know it may happen but I know several black women who have multiple kids with multiple fathers does it happen with whites sure but not near to the extent it does with blacks. I just think this is a root cause of crime with our youth because they have no direction and are left to find it on the streets. Hispanics have multiple kids but usually with the same father and sometimes it has the same results too. I don't care what anyone says yes you can raise a child right in a single parent household but we know this is not happening here. People who cannot support one child do not need to have any more regardless of race I don't care what anyone says. Having a child is not a right. If you cannot support that child and that child is going to run the streets he/she is everyones problem in the future and thats the reason we have the hood rats. I am not saying Travon Martin did anything wrong but he was a problem child too and was suspect. Now Zimmerman should have watched but stayed back and not provoked a situation thats where he went wrong. I think the Florida jury just went with what they had at the time. But in another case where the black women who shot over her abusive husbands head got 20 years was bullshit too. I am for fair justice but that was far from fair I would go to bat for that women this is where blacks actually have a case on my opinion. I know justice is skewed against them. I don't know what the answer is.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:37 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 30):
I consider this a confirmation that the laws need to be clearer.

I completely agree. I think the current law is inadequate and it ties in with my whole entire gun control ideas

And sorry cmf! The first paragraph was addressed towards you and the rest was just talking about the topic at hand. I'm not saying you're racist  
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
stratosphere
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:45 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 32):
I completely agree. I think the current law is inadequate and it ties in with my whole entire gun control ideas

And just what is that? ... This is my problem with liberals Chicago has strict gun control and has more gun violence than almost anywhere in the country. Criminals will get guns no doubt about it. All gun laws do is take it away from law abiding citizens. As far as stand your ground? I don't know enough about it..But in my state of Mississippi if you are even stealing something out of my garage I can shoot to kill. Is it right? I don't know but I am glad I have the option to protect my house and property without repercussions. Not like the liberal states where I am at the mercy of criminals who have a gun.
 
windy95
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:53 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Black (not African-American...he's Nigerian by ethnicity)



But then why is our president who is 1/2 white and 1/2 kenyan called a African-American? To play the race game that is why causing more harm to race realtions. If they had been honest from the beginning and called him the first bi-racial President it would have done much more for race relations.

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Quoting n318ea (Reply 6):
Any other 17 year old black person killed in black on black violence wouldn't have made the News. Look up Chicago statistics for verification.

Lets not kid ourselves. The circumstances in the Zimmerman case are not typical



Yes they are. Self Defense happens everyday.

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
I agree he was overcharged and he probably had no intention to shoot until just before he reached for the gun. That said it was his actions that created the situation leading up to the shooting.
Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
Anyone calling for personal responsibility should be up over arms that he got out free.



If yo want to continue with these arguemnets maybe you should continue to follow the trail that led to this incident. Like Trayvon should of been in school that day instead of being suspended from school. Maybe the personal responsibility of trayvon who should not of been a dope smoking, bus driver punching punk who also was cuaght woth stolen jewelery. Where was his parents and their responsibility?

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 9):
This is gonna sound cold and callous, but I personally could care less about gang bangers and drug dealers dying in gun violence, as far as i'm concerned they deserve it



So you think Trayvon deserved it?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
Quoting slider (Thread starter):
The state failed to prove its case.

From a legal stand point..it did.



From every standpoint they did.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
Yep totally true in part, because the defendant cleverly 'gamed' the system, he put 'Stand Your Ground' to the test, covered all his tracks (got caught lying) but made sure no one was around to refute his version...the perfect crime



Not the way six jurors saw it.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
But many Caucasian looking Hispanics like Zimmerman prefer identifying themselves as just 'white' they see it as advantageous...



Just like our bi-racial President checks the African American box because he saw it as advantageous.LOL

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 14):
Yep funny thing is the media is feeding the frenzy that now young black youth will have to be in fear of the white man after the Zimmerman verdict when the fact remains that 94% of young black males who will be killed by violence will be at the hands of other young black males but no one wants to go there. The Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons make their living off keeping the race baiting going



Bingo. And many go sunsoved or never have the killer arrested due to lack of evidence.

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Then why was Zimmerman so worried about a black guy looking around "suspiciously"? Two thirds of all burglaries are made by whites.



But in his neighborhood most are black. the police had even warned about gangs using hoodies in his area doing the robberies.

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):
Quoting stratosphere (Reply 19):
Maybe not in his neighborhood.

You're missing the point. He was using statistics to justify profiling. By that ,poor, standard you should look for white people in relation to burglaries



They had been using the statistics for his neighborhood. Blacks with hoodies doing the robberies.

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):
, legally hunt down a teenager he felt was suspicious,



Six jurors did not agree with you.

Quoting cmf (Reply 21):
"Any system that would allow George Zimmerman to legally carry a concealed weapon, legally hunt down a teenager he felt was suspicious, legally confront that teenager against the instruction of authorities, and then legally use deadly force in the resulting altercation — I mean, come on — any system that would legally allow all of that is fucking broken."



personal opinion. Not those of the Jurors.

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
It was Zimmerman who kept following Martin thus causing the confrontation
Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
They instructed him not to follow. Look at the reenactment and it is clear he didn't stop.



you keep on continuing with these lies like a broken record.

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
t, gun owners should not be responsible for what their actions cause, just everyone else



Not when it is self defense.
 
Boeing717200
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:12 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
As a gay man, I often hear a lot of: "Just because I don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle doesn't make me a homophobe."

Yes it does. In fact, that's the exact definition of homophobia.

If we are going to address race relations, the first thing that we are going to have to do is accept that racism DOES exist. And we are going to have to accept that many of us are racist, even those of us who wish we weren't. I am a horrible racist, although I accept it about myself and thus try to modulate my behavior with that knowledge in mind. It's my way of ensuring that, although I am not color-blind, and although I have racist tendencies, I can expect it out of myself and thus I can curb any resulting behavior.

I'll try to remember this the next time people in here trash religion.

Racism, homophobia, religious bigotry. It's all the same.

[Edited 2013-07-16 06:45:33]
 
cmf
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:30 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Yes they are. Self Defense happens everyday.

Not with the person claiming self defense initiating it by following and picking up the trail twice.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
If yo want to continue with these arguemnets maybe you should continue to follow the trail that led to this incident. Like Trayvon should of been in school that day instead of being suspended from school. Maybe the personal responsibility of trayvon who should not of been a dope smoking, bus driver punching punk who also was cuaght woth stolen jewelery. Where was his parents and their responsibility?

None of that is relevant as it doesn't change that Martin had every right to be and do what he did when Zimmerman decided to follow him.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
But in his neighborhood most are black. the police had even warned about gangs using hoodies in his area doing the robberies.

Doesn't change that Martin had every right to walk where he walked and wear what he did without being harrased by anybody.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Six jurors did not agree with you.

Don't they? You actually claim that they said it is legal to harass someone you think look suspicious... Instead of saying there wasn't enough evidence to hold him responsible to the degree required by the law for the crimes they were tasked to have an opinion on? Reality is that they did not provide any judgement on that part because they were not asked to do that. A mistake by the prosecution'.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Not those of the Jurors.

When did the jury make you their spokesperson? All you state is nothing but your personal opinion.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 33):
you keep on continuing with these lies like a broken record.

Did Zimmerman follow Martin, yes or no?
Had Zimmerman been told he shouldn't follow people during the neighborhood training traing and then got reminded about it during the call to the police and did Zimmerman still follow in the direction he had seen Martin go, yes or no?

The answers are in the re-enactment and I am sure you will not be able to support and no on either of those questions and thus can't claim I lied. But what do facts matter to a made up mind? Surprise me and and make a supported claim.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Not when it is self defense.

And whenever a gun owner shoot someone it is self defense no matter what happened before... Sorry, but even the extremely pro Florida self defense laws recognise that provoking removes your right to self defense and only give it back under specific circumstances.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
slider
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:52 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
Agreed, given the OP's history, but maybe he's sincere..

I am quite sincere here.

But why don't you post some of that history. If you're calling me out, go find some of those posts...if you're going to accuse me of racism, you better back it up.

Would be nice if you could contribute to a legitimately thought provoking thread without engaging in ad hominem attacks.
 
windy95
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:11 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 37):
Quoting cmf (Reply 2):
Seems you suggest CNN created white hispanic, do you?

I believe they were the first to profile (yes, that's the term, right?) Zimmerman in that way. If I'm incorrect, please confirm where it was first uttered in relation to this case.



Correct they based this case on race and when they found out that Zimmerman was 100% caucasian then they had to spin with the white hispanic. This is part of the continueing trend on why we continue to have bad race relations.

Quoting slider (Reply 37):
But sadly, much of the blame by so-called "community activists" (Quanell X in Houston comes immediately to mind) is put upon the white community.



As long as whites are continued to be portrayed as the only group of people that have racists tendencies in them then we will continue to have problems.

Quoting slider (Reply 37):
So I think the black on black violence has a LOT to do with race relations. Because the blame game is a cottage industry. And the internal problems of black communities are NOT internal...the impact spills over into many other facets of our lives. I mean, just in the 513 days between Martin being killed and the trial verdict, 11,106 blacks have been killed by other blacks. We should be focused on ALL of those, not merely one, no matter the circumstances of it.



Bingo...

Quoting slider (Reply 37):
You're right on target here. But what can we do about it? The media gives Sharpton (he of Tawana Brawley, Hymietown, etc, etc fame...) an open forum, a platform to spew his vitriol, to create divide



He IS a racists. Yet they continue to portray white conservatives as the only people on this planet as being racists when nothing can be farther from the truth. And their continueing insistance on this line is what makes the lines harden more and more.

Quoting slider (Reply 37):
OK, go pull those posts. I challenge you. You're very thinly implying I'm racist. So either back it up or I'll take it to the mods (after all, that's your M.O., is it not?) Back it up or back off. Now, I've said and will CONTINUE to say plenty about islam, but that has nothing to do with race and has everything to do with a totalitarian system with which I vehemently disagree. But where are you going with this?



Another great point that has been perpetuated over the years. If you try to talk about problems in the black community you must be racist. Vote against a bi-racial man and you must be racist. Vote for a black conservative well he must be an Uncle Tom... the left has made race a cottage industry and it is getting very old and tiring and is making things worse and not better. Which i think is what they want becasue it makes it easier for them to control people.
 
Mir
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:17 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
This happens ALL the time. Black people get pulled over for no reason other than being black. And if that happens, then you can imagine what other sorts of racism there is.

Here's a great video about just how bad racial profiling is: http://www.upworthy.com/know-anyone-...-and-tell-me-when-your-jaw-drops-2

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 7):
the criminal justice system is biased against minorities blacks get harsher sentences than hispanics and both get bigger punishments for the exact same crime that a white person does on an aggregate. All DA's across the US that charge minorities with larger penalties than whites need to be called out on it.

   Do DAs see the race of a suspect when deciding what to prosecute them with? I can't see any reason why they should. Just look at the evidence and charge the suspect with what seems appropriate - seems simple enough.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 33):
This is my problem with liberals Chicago has strict gun control and has more gun violence than almost anywhere in the country.

Because neighboring states are more than happy to act as suppliers for Chicago.

The whole Zimmerman/Martin case is a fantastic example of why it might be a good idea not to have such high gun ownership. If Zimmerman didn't have a gun, he might have not been tempted to try and pursue Martin in the first place, and the confrontation never happens and an innocent kid would be alive. Jordan Davis would be alive today if Michael Dunn didn't have a gun with which to shoot him after he thought he saw Davis with a gun. There are certain places where there are just too many people in close proximity to each other and too many opportunities for misunderstandings to have widespread gun ownership and still keep innocent people from losing their lives. I realize that not every place is like that, which is why places should be able to set their own laws. But there have to be other mechanisms to ensure that people buying guns in those states actually live in those states and aren't engaging in trafficking.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 33):
As far as stand your ground? I don't know enough about it..But in my state of Mississippi if you are even stealing something out of my garage I can shoot to kill. Is it right?

No. No it isn't.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
windy95
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:21 pm

Part of race that has not been covered in this case by the mainstream media is the problems in the Miami Dade School system. The Police in the school system fall under a different program and the Chief is hired and fired by the Dept of ED.

Quote:
It was only when the M-DSPD Internal Affairs investigation kicked in, and six officers gave sworn affidavits, the manipulative scheme to improve criminal statistics within the School System were identified openly.

School Superintendent Alberto Carvalho gave his hire, Police Chief Hurley, instructions to reduce the criminal behavior of young black males. The chosen strategy between them, to insure optical success, was to stop using the Criminal Justice System to punish black student behavior. Instead they instructed the School Resource Officers to use school discipline in place of criminal justice.

Another approach was the use of The Baker Act, to quantify behaviors under health HIPPA law secrecy by assigning the students with psychological problems. This allowed them to again use school discipline and work around criminal reports.

Without the reports, the statistics would improve immensely; And improve they did.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...ecap-six-officer-sworn-affidavits/

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/a...dia-school-police-prosecutors.html

It is policies and programs like this that add to the continueing problems with race relations. The M-DSPD Chief has since resigned after this investigation was completed. Where was the race baiters and hustlers in the media on this story?
 
windy95
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:29 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
and an innocent kid would be alive

He was not an "innocent" Kid. And this continues to part of the big lie. If he had been busted for the theft of the jewelery in his posession then he would never of been in Sanford. Had he not been expelled from school then he would not of been in Sanford. Had he not been high maybe he would not of been so paranoid and needed the munchies from the 7-11. But no you go right to if Zimmerman did not have a gun. This is all part of the race problem when people see them trying to paint Trayvon as a cute little kid and Zimmerman as the racist, when the racists in this case are the ones controlling the narrative in the media.
 
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casinterest
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:43 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 42):
He was not an "innocent" Kid. And this continues to part of the big lie. If he had been busted for the theft of the jewelery in his posession then he would never of been in Sanford. Had he not been expelled from school then he would not of been in Sanford. Had he not been high maybe he would not of been so paranoid and needed the munchies from the 7-11. But no you go right to if Zimmerman did not have a gun. This is all part of the race problem when people see them trying to paint Trayvon as a cute little kid and Zimmerman as the racist, when the racists in this case are the ones controlling the narrative in the media

Why do you keep bringing this up. It is a perfect example of bias and profiling in this case. What happened in Miami does not have a bearing on why Zimmerman shot him. What happened between Zimmerman and Martin is known only to Zimmerman and Martin can't tell his side. The bias you are dragging into this case is a preconceived notion of innocence or guilt. Which isn't applicable to the issue that occurred.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
WestJet747
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 40):
Had he not been high maybe he would not of been so paranoid and needed the munchies from the 7-11.

You've never smoked weed before, have you?
Flying refined.
 
StarAC17
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 40):
But no you go right to if Zimmerman did not have a gun.

If GZ didn't have a gun he probably wouldn't have left his car.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 40):
This is all part of the race problem when people see them trying to paint Trayvon as a cute little kid and Zimmerman as the racist, when the racists in this case are the ones controlling the narrative in the media.

Did GZ he not profile in this case??

I'm not saying that TM was an angel but it is expected than many teens get into some trouble with the hope they get it out of their systems, learn their lessons and go on to be productive adults.

Many white 17 year old get into the same trouble as TM allegedly did, do you honestly paint them the exact same way??

I will tell you that the greater US society fails brilliantly at this and constantly paints white indiscretions as "Boys will be Boys" where as black citizens doing the exact same thing are labelled as pariahs who will never be productive.

It is obvious that you do not like Barack Obama but you have to admit had he had an affair like Reagan or McCain he wouldn't have gotten past Iowa in the primaries. Had he had a DUI like GWB then he wouldn't have had a political career.

My hypothesis for this is that it is constant fear and guilt passed down through generations for how white ancestors treated black people for centuries.

To quote Yoda: Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate.. to suffering.


Quoting windy95 (Reply 40):
Had he not been high maybe he would not of been so paranoid and needed the munchies from the 7-11.

He was watching the freaking NBA all star game on a Sunday night and had a sweet tooth, also it was 7:15pm and not midnight. To profile a little bit here that is what I would expect from a 17 year old black teenager.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 43):
You've never smoked weed before, have you?

He probably hasn't but could use some.

Just some facts about weed, it isn't linked to an increase in aggressive behavior and the presence of THC in TM's blood (if there was any) doesn't mean he was high as a kite on the night of his death as THC takes months to get out of the body.
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:27 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 41):
It is a perfect example of bias and profiling in this case.

But the jury didn't know that.

We out here in the cheap seats put together a profile perhaps, but all of that information--including Martin's text messages--were ruled inadmissible.

Let me ask you though, based on this info--not his skin color--but purely based on his actions and such, why is profiling a bad thing? We have a guy who was not a little angel. GZ didn't know that either, but his decision to watch where TM was going ended up being pretty prescient on balance of KNOWN information: break-in history in neighborhood, suspicious behavior, etc.

But that's separate from the race issue, which is the main thrust of my point.

How do you empower an entire group of people who have been conditioned over decades to be angry victims to break free from that?
 
BN747
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 36):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 11):
Agreed, given the OP's history, but maybe he's sincere..

I am quite sincere here.

But why don't you post some of that history. If you're calling me out, go find some of those posts...if you're going to accuse me of racism, you better back it up.

This thread..


Blacks Being Pimped By The DNC (by Wilax Aug 9 2004 in Non Aviation)

and this one


African American Chat (Multiple Issues) (by TedTAce Sep 17 2005 in Non Aviation)

and this


Mexico Can Bite One... (by Slider Jan 10 2006 in Non Aviation)

and here


Reparations For Slavery? (by AerospaceFan Jan 16 2006 in Non Aviation)

again


Hate Crime Legislation...what's The Point? (by MaverickM11 Sep 17 2004 in Non Aviation)

...there is more, honestly, to hear you say you are 'troubled by all Race Relations'..given your past views.. I saw it coming and the thread above and many more indicate it. To anyone with a conscience that is. Some people are unaffected and fiercely defensive til the very end in their staunch views on these matters..they end up in the most pain when realized they've unfair, unjust and wrong in their 'adopted' views. Nothing is more torturous in advanced age than 'regrets.. they become nightmares.

but I gotta run and will post more if you like.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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casinterest
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:08 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
why is profiling a bad thing? We have a guy who was not a little angel. GZ didn't know that either,

I never said profiling was a bad thing.
GZ wasn't an angel either. He had charges raised and dropped as well. Profiling isn't a bad thing ,but it is something that has to be securely held in check, because it causes preconceived notions that may or may not be in play.

Percentages and odds may be in favor of a profile, but they don't guarantee an outcome. I can tell you that you have a 50% chance of heads when you flip a coin, but I can't tell you with certainty what the outcome of the next flip will be. Previous history has no bearing on the next flip. Just as preconceived notions based on profile will not dictate the outcome of your next encounter.

Quoting slider (Reply 45):
How do you empower an entire group of people who have been conditioned over decades to be angry victims to break free from that?

I don't know, you are the Fox news fan right?  


Seriously though, I don't think it is a fact of being an angry victim, I think certain groups see the media treatment of folks they align or a case that goes against their guy instincts, and they get angry.

It could be a many different walks of life. Not just Race. I think things are getting better. However a good deal of the population over 50 has lived in a world where Racism was much more pronounced. The echos are getting dimmer of it, but there are enough parents and grandparents that lived it, that there are still repercussions from it.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
n318ea
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:34 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 8):

This is gonna sound cold and callous, but I personally could care less about gang bangers and drug dealers dying in gun violence, as far as i'm concerned they deserve it. But you're confused if you think innocent kids dying in the crossfire don't get national attention...in fact, why don't you follow your own advise and look up the shooting of Hadiya Pendleton in Chicago, which garnered national attention.

If anyone is confused by their :facts," it's you. The Jesse Jackson's an Al Sharpton's, NAACP are not in Chicago because they can't make any money. President Zero's hometown in a perfect example of how you can get re-elected as a Democrat spending millions of dollars fighting poverty and accomplishing nothing to fix the problem.
Bush probably did it!  Smile

[Edited 2013-07-16 11:49:49]
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BN747
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:59 pm

Quoting n318ea (Reply 48):
If anyone is confused by their :facts," it's you. The Jesse Jackson's an Al Sharpton's, NAACP are not in Chicago because they can't make any money. President Zero's hometown

..and there is the perfect concrete mindset that keeps the worse kind of racism firmly entrenched in American Society.. one can only imagine if someone speaks this way on the internet do they also continue in public areas and just who listens to this..

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
n318ea
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RE: What Do We Do About Race Relations In America?

Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:14 pm

(CNSNews.com) – In the 20-day period of the George Zimmerman trial, four minors – three teens and a five-year-old boy - were gunned down in Chicago, according to Homicide Watch Chicago, a Chicago Sun-Times publication, which details every murder that takes place in the city.

Sorry, I was looking for my sheet and hood. Zero National outrage reference the above.

[Edited 2013-07-16 12:27:31]
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