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Dano1977
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Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:23 pm

Just announced on the BBC, that Detroit is going to file for Chapter 9 Bankruptcy.

The city is estimated to have debts of $15bn or £10bn

Some Detroit Facts (courtesy of the BBC)

Population has shrunk from a peak of 2 million in the 1950s to 713,000 today

Highest violent crime rate of any major US city, with 15,245 reported incidents in 2011

Some 78,000 abandoned and blighted buildings

40% of street lights do not work

Only a third of the city's ambulances are in service

Just 53% of owners paid their 2011 property taxes


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23369573
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dtw2hyd
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:32 pm

Good for Michigan, Metro Detroit and citizens of City of Detroit. Bad for City Workers. With $1 Billion revenue per year, there is no way to pay off $15 Billion debt.
 
Okie
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:04 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 1):
Good for Michigan, Metro Detroit and citizens of City of Detroit

A clean slate would be a good place to start. There was some success in the downtown rehab.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 1):
Bad for City Workers.

The Unions did not want to negotiate wages and pensions, many of the creditors were not to excited about taking a 90+% loss and will take their chances with bankruptcy. The cities unions mean time are courting the Obama administration to jump in and put them ahead of the creditors per GM and Chrysler.

Okie
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:56 am

And let's not forget the corruption in city hall that started in the early 70's. That didn't help either.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:00 am

Quoting Dano1977 (Thread starter):
Some 78,000 abandoned and blighted buildings

There is a website of two photographers showing the ruins of Detroit. It looks like a city hit by war. This is quite frightening.

http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit/index.html
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
luckyone
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:20 am

Quoting okie (Reply 2):
A clean slate would be a good place to start. There was some success in the downtown rehab.

Any chance that portions of Detroit will be sold off to form smaller municipalities? Boston, Manhattan, and San Francisco could be contained within the city limits of Detroit. Only Boston is smaller in population than Detroit.

For my two cents, this just the worst example of a problem sown with a mindset born after WW2: People thinking that they can buy themselves lifetime security with pensions paid for by their children, never stopping to think that economies are fluid and all it would really take to shot that model to pieces was a few countries willing to copy the US industrial model. Brilliant. You then have a generation of people raised to think they're the center of the universe, with a divine right to be masters of it.
 
dtw9
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:30 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 4):
There is a website of two photographers showing the ruins of Detroit. It looks like a city hit by war. This is quite frightening.

Except that half those buildings have been restored or are going through restoration. The other half other than the old Packard plant are already gone or will be razed or restored

The second picture today

http://brodericktower.com/

The building in the third picture is under restoration

forth and fifth pictures see the Broderick

The sixth picture under full restoration

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...ation-hotel-detroit_n_2970968.html

There's even a new plan to restore the old Packard plant

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130717/METRO01/307170043

[Edited 2013-07-18 19:34:17]

[Edited 2013-07-18 19:35:35]
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:39 am

I didn't even know a city could just file for bankruptcy. Sad how mismanaged the city must be
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:45 am

Well, as a SE-MI-born and raised expat, I'm not surprised. That's part of why I got out as soon as I hit adulthood. It was obvious to me that the city had put all its eggs in the auto industry and when that industry left Detroit, there was nothing left. Michigan's horrible legislature will not help attract new businesses to the Detroit Metro Area, either.

Someone is going to have to invest in Detroit. There's no practical reason why it can't renew itself like Pittsburgh did. But until that happens, Detroit is dead.

Quoting okie (Reply 2):
The cities unions mean time are courting the Obama administration to jump in and put them ahead of the creditors per GM and Chrysler.

Which is something I support. Individuals who worked long and hard for their pensions should get them and they should have priority over corporate creditors whose very day-to-day food bill isn't at risk.
-Doc Lightning-

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GrahamHill
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:50 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 6):
Except that half those buildings have been restored or are going through restoration

My bad. Maybe the website is a bit old.

I'm glad to see some buildings are under restoration. There are some beautiful buildings and it was sad to see them in that state.
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
tb727
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:55 am

I really like Detroit, this is a new chapter in the cities history. I want to see it do well and turn it all around and hopefully this is a step in the right direction.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
dtw9
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:01 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Someone is going to have to invest in Detroit. There's no practical reason why it can't renew itself like Pittsburgh did. But until that happens, Detroit is dead.

You ever heard of Dan Gilbert Doc? The man has bought 30 major buildings in the last two years , has just purchased the Greektown Casino and is looking to add more to his portfolio. And all of the space he's buying is pretty much spoken for. Mike illich just announced this http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130619/BIZ/306190075 Then we have to new light rail
http://www.freep.com/article/2013042...1-Rail-streetcar-Detroit-Woodward. Just because it's bankrupt doesn't mean it's dead. In fact there is more happening downtown now than in the last thirty years. Here's what Dans got planned for Detroit http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...r-detroit-that-includes-districts#

[Edited 2013-07-18 20:10:09]

[Edited 2013-07-18 20:22:54]
 
Okie
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:01 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Which is something I support. Individuals who worked long and hard for their pensions should get them and they should have priority over corporate creditors whose very day-to-day food bill isn't at risk.

Good emotional try Doc but I think you will find that there are people who invested their lifetime of work and saving for personal retirement into the city's bonds as well.
Why should they get a haircut on their investments?

Okie
 
Ken777
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:23 am

It's easy enough for all sides to blame others, but now we are moving towards a point where we need to define how the city starts over in terms of rebuilding.

Detroit is going to have to leverage their property based assets and the 47% who don't pay property taxes need to catch up very quickly, or have their property taken to sheriff's auctions, with taxes owed as the starting bid. It's important too understand that a Bankruptcy Court will be in charge, with political leverage being wiped out in the property tax games.

Reality is that there are going to be debt holders who are taking a bath in the near future. To ease the pain, deliver properties to them with 5 years of tax exemption. If they develop the property then give them another 5 years of exemptions. Detroit needs the Build, Baby, Build approach to recovery, and they need to reward private developers who get in fast.

Interest rates are low right now so it is a good time for investments in infrastructure development, or maintenance of old infrastructures. That delivers jobs and that is what Detroit needs, and needs fast.

The other issue that needs to be addressed is how to minimize subsequent bankruptcies. You have 20,000 people (of various ages) on pensions and you are talking about gutting their pensions. The lucky ones will have paid off their houses and can keep them when they file. The others will simply push the city down even more. There had better be a lot of fear in terms of those pensions.
 
dtw9
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:27 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 9):
I'm glad to see some buildings are under restoration. There are some beautiful buildings and it was sad to see them in that state.

Thanks. Those of us that have invested our lives here couldn't be happier to see the revival of the City of Detroit finally taking place. Here's one of my personal favarites that's undergoing restoration now and will be finished by next spring
http://gardetroit.org/
 
dtw9
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:38 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
The other issue that needs to be addressed is how to minimize subsequent bankruptcies. You have 20,000 people (of various ages) on pensions and you are talking about gutting their pensions. The lucky ones will have paid off their houses and can keep them when they file. The others will simply push the city down even more.

Most of the pensioners don't live in the city anymore and more than half of those don't live in Michigan, so that part will have minimal impact on the city.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Detroit is going to have to leverage their property based assets and the 47% who don't pay property taxes need to catch up very quickly, or have their property taken to sheriff's auctions

The Sheriff wouldn't even want most of those properties. People paying 5000 in taxes a year on a house that's worth 2500 and I think you see where the problem lies
 
luckyone
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:43 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Someone is going to have to invest in Detroit. There's no practical reason why it can't renew itself like Pittsburgh did. But until that happens, Detroit is dead.

It most likely will. There is still the infrastructure there for a city. Somebody just has to use it. Sooner or later the cost will be too good to pass up. Apparently others have said it has started to occur in the downtown of Detroit.
 
Okie
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:45 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Detroit needs the Build, Baby, Build approach to recovery, and they need to reward private developers who get in fast

They are starting to see the rewards of the process of rebuilding downtown with private developers. GM says they are in Detroit to stay. Things are really starting to look up in Detroit. They just owe $15B that they can not pay nor have a tax base to pay it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
You have 20,000 people (of various ages) on pensions and you are talking about gutting their pensions.

Their pensions have not been dissolved or gutted the city has been delinquent on properly funding the pension system. There is money there, just not the full amount. (They may have to retire on 75% pay instead of 90%)
The unions were offered a chance to take partial payment in a settlement for the money owed and basically putting them on equal footing with secured creditors. The unions turned that option down to be on equal statis with secured creditors and will be put on the unsecured debtors list. The unions have chosen that position so they can petition the Obama administration to put them ahead of the secured creditors.


Okie
 
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:38 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 9):
My bad. Maybe the website is a bit old.

In the introductory text, the authors say: "This work is thus the result of a five-year collaboration started in 2005."

The related book was published in 2010. In three years a lot can happen and it's good to see things are starting to look up at Motown.
 
PHX787
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:02 am

Quoting okie (Reply 2):
The cities unions mean time are courting the Obama administration to jump in and put them ahead of the creditors per GM and Chrysler.

If this happens you can expect lawsuits left and right. These unions, by not cooperating, really helped to tear this city down. Maybe the below had something to do with it too.....

Quoting type-rated (Reply 3):
And let's not forget the corruption in city hall that started in the early 70's. That didn't help either.
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Superfly
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:34 am

Perhaps a bankruptcy is what is needed.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 11):

Thanks for the links. I'm glad to hear that things are starting to look up in Detroit again. I really liked visiting there and I think the place has a lot to offer. The neighborhoods are scary but hopefully that will change.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 5):
Manhattan,

Not a separate city. Just one of the five boroughs that make up New York, New York.



In my trip report there a few years ago, I show both the good and bad sides of Detroit.
The blight does look depressing but I'm glad to hear that things are turning around.

Detroit Rock City (SFO-PHL-DTW) (by Superfly May 11 2009 in Trip Reports)?threadid=148353&searchid=148870&s=Detroit+Rock+City#ID148870
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cptkrell
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:51 pm

Living and working in the Detroit area for 4 and and half decades, I had a pretty good front row seat for the city's slow then rapid demise. It was pretty painful. After the old mansion I and roomates leased down near the GM Building was shot up by the National Guard during the 1967 riots, (provoked by police brutality charges, among many other things) I moved to neighboring Dearborn but still had that front row seat.

IMHO, after the riots, the city's biggest problem became real crooked local politicians from the mayor down to and including the police department and unwavering demands by unions. Mayor Coleman Young effectively drove out multi-thousands of taxpayers (residents and businesses alike) to surrounding communities. Succeeding mayors weren't much better, except for current Mayor Dave Bing, one of basketball's 50 greatest all time players and Michigan industrialist, who seems to be one real honest, upstanding gentleman. He simply inhereted a train wreck that's quite impossible to re-rail post-haste.

I really wish Detroit all best. I had a LOT of fun in that community and did quite well career-wise and have mostly fond memories. It was sad to see one of the world's greatest cities crumble because of greed and ineptitude. rergards...jack
all best; jack
 
Flighty
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:38 pm

There are checks in balances in life. In theory you need them. If you live forever, you'd never be motivated to do anything, because you can always do it next millenium.

Municipal unions, too, need a credible possibilities of BK to limit their otherwise infinite demands. Pensions are million dollar bags of gold. They are custom designed to appear middle class (based on salaries under 100k) while actually costing millions per career worker. Many public sector workers actually earn double their stated salary, including fair accrual of pensions. But that's a "surprise" (by design).

Detroit bankruptcy is likely decades overdue. Policy makers should design credible and sustainable policies. Bankruptcy is a huge step forward toward a sustainable future. Here's an idea - don't offer pensions. Accountants all know -- pensions are designed to decieve.
 
seb146
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:07 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Thread starter):
Just 53% of owners paid their 2011 property taxes

I wonder if that includes industry? It is no secret that industry is always courted to a city by that city giving massive tax credits and breaks. I wonder how that figured into Detroit going bankrupt.

Also, no one is talking about the right-wing governor allowing the city to be taken over by a manager he appointed, city government be dissolved and, soon after, declared bankruptcy. Now, yet another attack on union workers.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
johns624
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 21):
Succeeding mayors weren't much better, except for current Mayor Dave Bing

Dennis Archer tried... The rest were useless.
 
cptkrell
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 24):

Yes! Dennis Archer. I have been retired and out of the area for almost a dozen years and forgot Mr. Archer who I believe was a good man. regards...jack
all best; jack
 
dtw9
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Also, no one is talking about the right-wing governor allowing the city to be taken over by a manager he appointed, city government be dissolved and, soon after, declared bankruptcy. Now, yet another attack on union workers.

In reality the Governor gave the Mayor and City Council a year to come to an agreement to get the City's financial house in order The City councel decided to spend that time kicking the can further down the road because they didn't have the courage to face the truth. Many options were presented to them and they turned up their noses to each and every one. The Council finally signed a consent agreement which mandated they start taking action,well, they didn't. The Council spent that time trying to figure out how to get as Joann Watson put it,"Some bacon from Obama". You can call him by any name you want but at least Snyder has the Balls to do something that should have been done 40 years ago. Had any one of the previous Govenors during that 40 year time span taken action,Detroit wouldn't be where it is today. Hell, Kwame borrowed 2 Billion dollars during his term with no way of paying it back and Bing has added another 3/4 Billion in his term. And it's not an attack on Union workers,it's a wake up call that you can't keep promising things that you have no way of paying,why do you think Social Security is in the mess it's in. Unless other Cities and the Federal Government wake up you're going to see alot more Detroits before it's over. Just take a look a California http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/us...r-than-earlier-estimates.html?_r=0

[Edited 2013-07-19 09:56:19]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:05 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 12):

Good emotional try Doc but I think you will find that there are people who invested their lifetime of work and saving for personal retirement into the city's bonds as well.
Why should they get a haircut on their investments?

Again, people should trump corporations. Corporate lenders are not going to starve. People can and will.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:08 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Also, no one is talking about the right-wing governor allowing the city to be taken over by a manager he appointed, city government be dissolved and, soon after, declared bankruptcy. Now, yet another attack on union workers.

LOL, I was wondering when someone like you would somehow try to blame conservatives.

Sorry. Detroit has been 100% run by Democrats for over 50 years (including one who was a member of CPUSA). They tried their heavy-handed and expensive programs to engineer a better Detroit, causing all the better-off people (i.e. taxpayers) to flee from the 60s onwards. The left owns this baby.

By the way, the municipal pension fund, which is largely responsible for this bankruptcy, is going to be bailed out by the Federal Pension Benefits Guaranty Corporation (PBGC). So the rest of us are going to be stuck with the bill (again).
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:28 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
Sorry. Detroit has been 100% run by Democrats for over 50 years (including one who was a member of CPUSA). They tried their heavy-handed and expensive programs to engineer a better Detroit, causing all the better-off people (i.e. taxpayers) to flee from the 60s onwards. The left owns this baby.

It's true that democratic mayors have controlled Detroit, but the fact is that for almost 100 years, Detroit has been run neither by Democrats nor Republicans but by the auto companies. No mayor, Democrat or Republican, could have been elected without their support.

It was the auto companies that had the trollies ripped out and opposed any and all plans for public transit other than a paltry bus system and the glorified parking system called the "People Mover." It was the auto companies that got the trench freeways built, contributing to the "white flight" to the suburbs. It was the auto companies that tried as hard as possible to ensure that all industries in the city centered around the auto industry.

That's what ultimately screwed the city.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
cptkrell
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:45 pm

Governor Snyder (R), has currently said "we're not kicking the can down the road anymore" but admits that even the taxes and fees incomes are now in jeopardy (people are stopping paying their sewer fees and even parking ticket fines because tthere is no enforcement capability!).

Even though I still have relatives and friends in the area, I'm not entirely sure I'd like to re-visit.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):

I would submit that DocLighning's post is partially true. The Big Boys at GM (remember the GM Truck And Coach Division?) looked out of the headquarters building one day and asked "Hey, why are we building all these buses with 40 people on board when we could probably sell nearly 20 or 30 cars for each bus?". Good business, IMHO.

And it's true that the first "freeway" was built in Detroit but I'd hardly say this contributed to the "white flight" to the suburbs. After all, the freeway system was operational in various stages LONG before Mayor Coleman Young said "Whitey...hit the other side of 8 Mile Road" (or words very close) after the '67 riots.

I'll agree that the auto companies tried to develop auto and auto-related industies in and around Detroit but would opine that was also a reason for the SUCCESS of Detroit...Motor Capital of the world. regards...jack
all best; jack
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 30):
And it's true that the first "freeway" was built in Detroit but I'd hardly say this contributed to the "white flight" to the suburbs. After all, the freeway system was operational in various stages LONG before Mayor Coleman Young said "Whitey...hit the other side of 8 Mile Road" (or words very close) after the '67 riots.

Oh it certainly did. It allowed people to live in the suburbs and continue to commute into the City to the office. Before the trenches, this sort of commute would have been very impractical
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 30):
I would submit that DocLighning's post is partially true. The Big Boys at GM (remember the GM Truck And Coach Division?) looked out of the headquarters building one day and asked "Hey, why are we building all these buses with 40 people on board when we could probably sell nearly 20 or 30 cars for each bus?". Good business, IMHO.

Considering that the Mayor's office (and presumably the rest of the city council) were equally - if not more - closely connected to the United Auto Workers, I would think that, if it is true that the city intentionally blocked public transport, they were responding as much to the UAW as the businesses.

Or it was sheer incompetence and corruption - and I think that is the more likely scenario.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
dtw9
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:36 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
Oh it certainly did. It allowed people to live in the suburbs and continue to commute into the City to the office. Before the trenches, this sort of commute would have been very impractical

Not entirely true. The 67 riots and the election of Coleman Young accelerated "white flight" more than freeways. Detroit up until the late 60's early 70's only had I-94 and I-75 that would get you directly out of the city. The Southfield was built in the mid to late 60's and ends at the city limits to the north and until the completion of I-96 only intersected with i-94 in Allen Park. The lodge was built in sections starting in the 50's from Jefferson to Wyoming and further out to the city limits by the mid sixties. I-96 from downtown to the west side wasn't completed until the mid 70's. White flight had already started by the 1950's with a population loss of 200,000 between 1950 and 1960 with white percentage falling from 83 percent to 70 percent of total population. In the time period from 1960 to 1970 Detroit lost another 150,000 residents with the white percentage of Detroits population falling to 55 percent of total population. In the next decade with now having all of the freeways in place and Coleman Young as Mayor, Detroit lost over 400,000 residents and the total of white population of Detroit falling to 34 percent.
 
travelin man
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:49 pm

What Detroit SHOULD do is reduce the size of its city limits by about 75% -- reducing its footprint to correspond to its collapse in population. Right now it's trying to service a city built for millions with a much smaller population base (and even smaller tax-payer base).

I do wish it the best of luck, however, and hopefully the revitalization that has started will continue and spread.
 
dtw9
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:56 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 34):
What Detroit SHOULD do is reduce the size of its city limits by about 75% -- reducing its footprint to correspond to its collapse in population. Right now it's trying to service a city built for millions with a much smaller population base (and even smaller tax-payer base).

Problem with that is, there isn't a city that borders Detroit that wants to inherit any of the land and the problems that go with it. Most of the inner ring cities are losing population and are financilly sqeezed themselves. Mayor Dave Bing wants to resize the city, not by getting rid of area, but by consolitating neighborhoods but is getting alot of pushback on this idea.

[Edited 2013-07-19 11:57:35]

[Edited 2013-07-19 12:00:21]
 
johns624
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:24 pm

DTW9 hit the nail on the head. The biggest reason for the downfall of Detroit was the 1967 riots and the "blockbusting" don't by a certain real estate firm immediately thereafter. I know, I lived through it. I lived in Detroit 1959-1990 and worked for the school system 1977-2005.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:46 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Corporate lenders are not going to starve. People can and will.

Companies have gone bankrupt because of defaults. That's additional jobs lost.

The damage from destroying trust in the US court system by breaching contracts is incalculable.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:53 pm

Detroit should turn itself into the Hong Kong of America. Negotiate with the state for a special free economic zone, where no state taxes have to be paid and limited regulations (none economic in nature) apply. City will be back within 10 years.

Barring that, it will be decades before anyone could turn the city around.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
dtw9
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):

Detroit should turn itself into the Hong Kong of America. Negotiate with the state for a special free economic zone, where no state taxes have to be paid and limited regulations (none economic in nature) apply. City will be back within 10 years.

They already do and have for some time


http://www.detroitmi.gov/DepartmentsandAgencies/RenaissanceZones.aspx
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:32 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 34):
What Detroit SHOULD do is reduce the size of its city limits by about 75%

I would have thought they could use Eminent Domain Laws. Barring that, there are neighborhood with blocks of abandoned houses, but few residents refuse to move, city has to serve those few.
 
L-188
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:55 pm

Don't have a link but a state judge just ordered the bankruptcy filing withdrawn because it was against the state constitution.

This could get interesting because I am not sure how valid a court order prohibiting a city from filing in Federal court is.

I see the Feds having an issue with that.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
dtw9
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 41):
Don't have a link but a state judge just ordered the bankruptcy filing withdrawn because it was against the state constitution.

This could get interesting because I am not sure how valid a court order prohibiting a city from filing in Federal court is.

I see the Feds having an issue with that.

That will be overturned under appeal by tonight.
 
L-188
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:16 pm

That's my thinking too, but stranger things have happened.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:26 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 33):

Not entirely true. The 67 riots and the election of Coleman Young accelerated "white flight" more than freeways.

Let's say that it was a good helping of both. Without the freeways, it would not have been possible. The riots and Mr. Young pulled the trigger.

It's a bit like the gun debate. You can blame the gun or the shooter, but both are required for a shooting. The same is true here.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 30):
I'll agree that the auto companies tried to develop auto and auto-related industies in and around Detroit but would opine that was also a reason for the SUCCESS of Detroit...Motor Capital of the world. regards...jack

Success? I'd not call this success. It's like the body builder who uses steroids and dies at 40 of liver cancer. Was that success? I'd argue that success is, by definition, sustainable.

For a period of time between about 1945 and 1970, Detroit was a raging success. After 1970, it started a long, slow spiral.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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dtw9
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:34 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):
For a period of time between about 1945 and 1970, Detroit was a raging success. After 1970, it started a long, slow spiral.

Now this is where you can blame the freeways. Detroit has more automotive suppliers in the area then it's ever had. The problem is that they are spread over 6 counties and not consolidated in the city of Detroit. Where Detroit really lost out was all the other manufacturing that used to be within the city limits and was never replaced, not only in Detroit, but the entire surrounding area.
 
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2707200X
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:48 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
LOL, I was wondering when someone like you would somehow try to blame conservatives.

Sorry. Detroit has been 100% run by Democrats for over 50 years (including one who was a member of CPUSA). They tried their heavy-handed and expensive programs to engineer a better Detroit, causing all the better-off people (i.e. taxpayers) to flee from the 60s onwards. The left owns this baby.

By the way, the municipal pension fund, which is largely responsible for this bankruptcy, is going to be bailed out by the Federal Pension Benefits Guaranty Corporation (PBGC). So the rest of us are going to be stuck with the bill (again).

It is not just a liberal and conservative thing, Orange County,CA declared bankruptcy in 1994 also Harrisburg, PA, Stockton, CA , San Bernardino, CA and many smaller towns have declared ch. 9.
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
usflyer msp
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:32 pm

That judge is one of the worst judges I have seen in some time. Her reasoning was not quite logical and her comment about sending a copy of her judgement to President Obama left me quite puzzled. She was in over her head, IMHO....
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:37 pm

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 45):
Now this is where you can blame the freeways. Detroit has more automotive suppliers in the area then it's ever had. The problem is that they are spread over 6 counties and not consolidated in the city of Detroit. Where Detroit really lost out was all the other manufacturing that used to be within the city limits and was never replaced, not only in Detroit, but the entire surrounding area.

We can also blame the auto companies. In the 1970's and 1980's they used this business model of "planned obselescence" in which cars were intentionally made to have short service lives so as to increase sales of newer models.

The Japanese responded by making quality cars, which completely cornered the market. When the auto makers started to catch up, the auto industry did not come back to Detroit. It went to Chicago, Atlanta, Tennessee, etc. But it did not come back to Detroit. The effect has rippled through the whole state.

My grandfather was raised in a tiny town called Onaway around mid-fingers in the state. In his day, the sign at the city limits read: "Onaway Steers the World!" Why? They made all the steering wheels for Detroit there. Today it reads: "Sturgeon Capital of Michigan." Hardly a proud distinction, I must say.

The city fathers of Chicago diversified their industrial and commercial interests. They invested in public transport. They did such things as ensuring that the shore of Lake Michigan would remain mostly undeveloped (the beach, that is) and not clogged with industrial sites. The result is that Chicago is now a major American and world city. Detroit, on the other hand, once a sister to Chicago... is dead.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Detroit Files For Bankruptcy

Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:37 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):

I think Detroit's demise has a lot more to do than just "it's the Republicans' fault" or "it's the Democrats' fault." You have hundreds of Democrat run cities and hundreds of Republican run cities that are doing just fine. There are unique factors that really hurt Detroit
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