• 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
 
kaitak
Topic Author
Posts: 8969
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:28 pm

So, we now know - or strongly suspect - that the Syrian regime has used chemical weapons against its own people. What now?

The US government has stated some time ago that this was the red line beyond which Syria's government could not go. Was it wise to have said so? Certainly it was morally correct. Although Syria is not a signatory to the international convention banning the use of chemical weapons, the use of such weaponry and subjecting its own people to a horrific, agonising death is not something which the world can stand by and accept? True or not? Of course, we can just turn out backs, but the fact off the matter is that the US has said this openly. There is a real "(loss of) face" issue here and the US (and France - which once ruled Syria - and the UK) appear highly likely to take action against the regime.

What now?

The UK's parliament is to take a vote tomorrow and it looks like that two votes will be required; the opposition Labour party is demanding proof -presumably from the UN inspectors that this was indeed a chemical weapons attack. They also want a UN resolution, but that would appear impossible to achieve, since Russia and China are said to be against.

Nothing is likely to happen fast, which presents another problem: the Syrian regime has had over a week - and looks likely to have more time now - to move the weapons. Might there also be the possibility that the Russians will move weaponry including fighter acft to Syria, as a deterrent? I wouldn't put it past Putin ...

The extent of action planned is said to be limited, but is unlikely to be limited to known chemical weapons storage facilities. Syria's air power - runways and hangars at air bases - are also said to be likely to be targeted.

Will this action have the desired effect? Hopefully yes, if they can get the chemical weapons, but it just seems that there is so much scope for delaying tactics now that the prospect of successfully targeting and destroying all of Syria's chemical weapons seems to reduce by the day. Of course, after the Iraqi fiasco, the Americans will be anxious to do everything by the book, but if they are going to take action, they need to make sure if it effective and paralysing to the Syrian regime.
 
oly720man
Posts: 5754
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:00 pm

Unfortunately there are too many factions in Syria for any action to have a meaningful result. Dropping a few cruise missiles on air bases or weapons storage facilities may give the impression of doing something, but they won't stop the Syrian government doing what they do, basically because they know that no-one can stop them. They have the Russians and the Chinese in their corner waving the anti-imperialist flag and that's going to damp any thoughts of concerted action by others.

Any morality in all this has been kicked aside in the greater political game that's being played out and the poor people of Syria are suffering for it and will continue to suffer for because in the "game" they don't matter.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
einsteinboricua
Posts: 4708
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:08 am

Not that I advocate for/against military action but why do people assume that any action involves an invasion with ground troops and all? Does anyone remember Libya? Not one US troop set foot there.

That being said, unfortunately the US has already chosen a side and to not go through with the threats will either make it lose the little credibility it still has and seem two-faced. How will this play out? As long as the US is not carrying the bulk of the action, by all means. A "lead from behind" strategy could work.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
PHX787
Posts: 7881
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:49 am

Here's the difference between Libya and Syria.

Libya had 2 defining lines between the opposing sides.
Syria is a factional and sectarian mess.

I'm afraid of weapons getting in the wrong hands-like Afghanistan.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18260
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:39 am

Why would any action be taken? What does anyone want to actually achieve?

Is tis designed to punish the Assad government for using chemical weapons? Or is this deigned to remove Assad from power?

If the former, I don't know what it achieves if Assad stays in power. If the latter, is this yet anther exercise in "nation building"?

I never understood why "we" are in Afghanistan - except to catch bin Laden - but bin Laden is caught and no one has ever (successfully) explained to me why we're still there and what "victory" in Afghanistan looks like.

I agree that the Taliban was a brutal and oppressive regime, but hey, things are still rotten (especially for women) absent the Taliban. And hey again, Mugabe's regime in Zimbabwe is fairly brutal and fairly oppressive, and he's still there.

I remember the countless posters here cheering the Egyptian revolution and the ouster of Murbarak - and look where that got us.

Mostly, I don't know how democracy can be imposed on a nation that has no real understanding of it.

It makes the US "look weak" not to do anything? I don't think so and I've never quite understood why the US should be expected to be the tough guy, the world's policeman.

So I am not sure why the US should do anything - red lines or not. I guess I'm willing to be persuaded.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:58 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):

Great post! Clear thoughts well expressed.

Now, I have only one quibble with it - the first sentence. I would have preferred "Why should any action be taken?"

I am getting old and irrelevant details fascinate me!
 
cfcuq
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:55 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:21 am

mariner, i agree completely, comorin, don't get lost in the details. I find it interesting that a usa person and a couple of out of country people think alike.
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:32 am

Humanitarian aid is as far as it should go.
 
kiwiinoz
Posts: 1999
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:07 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:47 am

I think that military action in this instance is far more justified than the action taken in the 2nd Iraq war. There is a significant and escalating humanitarian crisis, a significant regional security crisis, and a significant global economic impact.
 
AR385
Posts: 6742
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:26 am

The action will probably involve no aircraft, but missiles from ships.

It will happen, wether the UN emits any resolution or not.

It will probably involve destroying known (to intel) the depots where the chemical weapons are located. Maybe two or three infrastructure constructions to send a personal message.

The Mexican President was to have traveled tomorrow to visit Turkey on one of its most expected trips of his presidency. The trip was suspended for "internal reasons" Since nothing is going on here "internally" that would make our President suspend such a trip, this might be a clue when something might go down.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:05 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):
It will probably involve destroying known (to intel) the depots where the chemical weapons are located. Maybe two or three infrastructure constructions to send a personal message.

The problem being that said 'depots' would almost certainly be largely 'staffed' by conscripts and/or ordinary civilians. So US forces (plus, presumably, NATO allies like the UK armed forces) would be 'punishing' Syria for (allegedly) killing innocent civilians by use of missiles by - er? - killing innocent civilians by use of different sorts of missiles...........?

[Edited 2013-08-28 22:10:09]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Mir
Posts: 19107
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:10 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
I never understood why "we" are in Afghanistan - except to catch bin Laden - but bin Laden is caught and no one has ever (successfully) explained to me why we're still there and what "victory" in Afghanistan looks like.

I agree that the Taliban was a brutal and oppressive regime, but hey, things are still rotten (especially for women) absent the Taliban. And hey again, Mugabe's regime in Zimbabwe is fairly brutal and fairly oppressive, and he's still there.

We're in Afghanistan because the original mission was not only to catch Bin Laden but also to remove the regime that allowed him and his organization to exist and thrive and replace it with a new one, and then to make sure that that regime is stable enough to survive on its own.

Things are not great in Afghanistan, that's true. And that's the whole reason that we're still there, though we've pretty much accepted the fact that nation building is a lot harder than we thought and that we'll just have to leave it in the best shape we can. As far as Mugabe goes, if he ever started harboring terrorists who attack the US we'll probably go there as well. But remember that while we certainly wanted to change the regime of Afghanistan, it had nothing to do with how that regime was treating its people and everything to do with that regime's support and hosting of Al-Qaeda.

Regime change in Syria would be a big problem, and we shouldn't get involved in that. But if we can reduce or eliminate Assad's ability to gas his people, that's definitely worth doing. Partly because there's a moral argument to be made for it, but mostly because we said we would. And people have to realize that we mean business when we say stuff like that (regardless of whether or not it was a good idea to say it in the first place - I'm not sure it was).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18260
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:39 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
We're in Afghanistan because the original mission was not only to catch Bin Laden but also to remove the regime that allowed him and his organization to exist and thrive and replace it with a new one, and then to make sure that that regime is stable enough to survive on its own.

Only the bin Laden part persuades me. I cannot imagine that much else in Afghanistan has changed.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Things are not great in Afghanistan, that's true. And that's the whole reason that we're still there, though we've pretty much accepted the fact that nation building is a lot harder than we thought and that we'll just have to leave it in the best shape we can.

The "hard" part may be true for the US - it certainly isn't true for Britain, which, over the past couple of hundred years, has made three failed forays into Afghanistan and should have known better.

I don't see how centuries - millennia - of attitude and behaviour can be changed unless there is an intense desire on the part of the people for change.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
And people have to realize that we mean business when we say stuff like that (regardless of whether or not it was a good idea to say it in the first place - I'm not sure it was).

I think pretty much the whole world understands that the US means its word. And sometimes, I wish it didn't.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Mir
Posts: 19107
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:45 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
Only the bin Laden part persuades me. I cannot imagine that much else in Afghanistan has changed.

The government does not harbor Al-Qaeda; Al-Qaeda may operate in the country, but it is not with state sanction. That's a definite change.

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
I think pretty much the whole world understands that the US means its word.

How can it if we let Syria get away with using chemical weapons if we said we wouldn't? It only takes one instance to get doubt spreading in the minds of those like Assad.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18260
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:59 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
The government does not harbor Al-Qaeda; Al-Qaeda may operate in the country, but it is not with state sanction. That's a definite change.

For now maybe.

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
How can it if we let Syria get away with using chemical weapons if we said we wouldn't? It only takes one instance to get doubt spreading in the minds of those like Assad.

Obviously, doubt already exists in Assad's mind, or else he wouldn't have done it - if he did it. But as I said from the git-go:

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
Is it designed to punish the Assad government for using chemical weapons?

How is Assad punished by some retaliatory action? He'd still be in power even if some parts of the country are broken, as some parts of it already are.

So what next? What is it that the US or the UK or France actually want to achieve?

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-28 23:06:20]
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8558
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:39 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
How can it if we let Syria get away with using chemical weapons if we said we wouldn't? It only takes one instance to get doubt spreading in the minds of those like Assad.

These people are smarter than you think. Tariq Aziz notwithstanding, even the trusted advisors of most world dictators are fully aware that the US has written the book, chapter and verse, on post-WWII realpolitik. They know to a certainty we will not act unless there is a pot of gold at the end of the road.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 21118
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:46 am

The vote in the UK was ditched because the PM knew it would not get through. There is little stomach for another involvement by British forces in another hopeless Middle East conflict.

It most likely will happen some sort of strike to take out or reduce the risk of future chemical attacks but I think all other avenues will be exhausted first to tame the doubters.

Russia is also sending ships to the region !
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10020
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:50 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
Why would any action be taken? What does anyone want to actually achieve?

This!

It's not a fight which the west should have any place in, leave it up to the Arabs to sort out there own issues. Saudi has heaps of nice toys and plenty of young men to use them and the money to pay for it, it's about time the west stopped pandering to bleading heart media images, toughen up and let the locals get on with sorting out there own issues.
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:15 am

Nothing. I am tired of the middle east. We do nothing we are to blame. We do something they hate us for interfering.

I just don't care anymore that they are killing themselves.

Seriously does anyone actually believe that the so called rebels will be any less brutal than Assad


Gs
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 7700
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:21 pm

Personally I think that Syria's air capabilities should be annihilated. Shoot every plane, every helicopter, every runway. It's impossible to hide those.

Don't forget the rebels are already controlling large parts of the country, including suburbs of the capital. Such action could very well tip the balance in their favor and cause Assad to either flee, negotiate, or die fighting.

I'm not sure what game Obama is playing, but Hollande has met with the head of Syria's main opposition group, Ahmad al-Jarba, this morning, and talked about "chemical massacre".

Air-defence frigate/destroyer Chevalier Paul has left her Toulon base last night for the theater of operations, where there is at least one nuclear attack submarine already.

The French president doesn't need the approval of parliament to attack. But we don't have the firepower to go alone, not unless we'd send all our navy (which is spread around the world).

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
It's not a fight which the west should have any place in, leave it up to the Arabs to sort out there own issues. Saudi has heaps of nice toys and plenty of young men to use them and the money to pay for it, it's about time the west stopped pandering to bleading heart media images, toughen up and let the locals get on with sorting out there own issues.

If Saudi Arabia goes, we're sure the end result will be worse for it. Al Qaeda was born there, remember.

Quoting greasespot (Reply 18):
Seriously does anyone actually believe that the so called rebels will be any less brutal than Assad

Yes. The rebels started with peaceful protests. Assad's answer was to snipe them.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
ROSWELL41
Posts: 755
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2001 3:50 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:29 pm

As an American taxpayer, I do not support any U.S. involvement in Syria. Let Syria sort out her own problems free of our interference.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:09 pm

My recollection was that negotiations were proposed before.

One condition by the FSA was that Assad must step down before negotiations started.

I do not recall if they would be prepared to negotiate with others in the Baathist Party.

In reality, there is no real scope for a negotiated outcome.

IMO, we are sleepwalking into another regime change.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5638
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:11 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Libya had 2 defining lines between the opposing sides.
Syria is a factional and sectarian mess.
Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Regime change in Syria would be a big problem, and we shouldn't get involved in that.

Removing Assad's government is going to result in a decade long (or longer) multi-faction civil war. The group to establish a new government and 'control' the country will be the one most radical and willing to shed the blood of thousands of Syrians who do not support them. Removing the Assad government will not stop the fighting, the killing or make Syria a 'safer' place for the world.

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
Syria's air power - runways and hangars at air bases
Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
Personally I think that Syria's air capabilities should be annihilated. Shoot every plane, every helicopter, every runway. It's impossible to hide those.

You do realize that will also destroy any commercial air travel in/ out of Syria for years?

Not saying that is a bad thing - but there will be people on this forum complaining.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:22 pm

I think that it is a given that civil air transport will be impacted.

iirc, most airports are dual use, as are other facilities.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:29 pm

I am not wholly sure of what we should do. I am sure, however, that past mistakes should not be the basis for a hasty military intervention. Fear of being labeled hypocritical for not intervening now when we have done before should not come into the decision-making process. I do not believe that any change of regime will likely be any better. Things in Iraq, Afghanistan and Egypt have not exactly settled-down perfectly, to put it mildly.

Any intervention should be UN-led, with the focus on protecting civilians. That much I do have clear in my mind.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 7700
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 22):
You do realize that will also destroy any commercial air travel in/ out of Syria for years?

Why for years ? Runways can be repaired fairly quickly. Look at Lebanon, Beirut airport has been disabled many times and it was reopened after a few weeks.

Besides, I'm not sure why I should prefer rich Syrians who can travel over thousands of dead and refugees.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
bennett123
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:47 pm

Presumably it depends on the weapons used.

Firstly, weapons have expanded since the 1970's.

Secondly, the UK/US were not involved in attacking these facilities. The militias and Lebanese military had somewhat limited weaponry in comparison.

Also, no one said to spare runways at the expense of human lives. It was simply pointed out that civil air transport facilities would be affected.

It is also not clear that regime change will result in less loss of life.

The experience of Iraq and Libya are hardly convincing.
 
mmedford
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:54 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:50 pm

If the US goes into this...expect there to be attacks on the soils of the UN peacekeepers because of the backdoor radicals Syria has.

Only way to solve the problem is level the country...

And you're not going to find a country willing to do that...because of the risk of collateral damage.

It's a catch-22...
ILS = It'll Land Somewhere
 
bennett123
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:04 pm

Not a bit drastic?.

Sounds like a return to MAD.
 
JoePatroni707
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:58 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:13 pm

We would not be in this position if back in 2003 at the start of the Iraq war the democrats got on board sooner to authorize the war. The chemical weapons were there, Saddam Hussein moved them to Syria, and hence we now have this problem. Obama needs to get on the ball and bomb Syria back to the Stone Age before we have another issue.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:33 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 29):
Obama needs to get on the ball and bomb Syria back to the Stone Age before we have another issue.

I'm not sure that bombing anyone back to the Stone Age will help much, other than creating more generations of resentment and trouble, Any intervention needs to be a little more intelligent that just blast the crap out the country.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 7700
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:04 pm

I'm not pretending to know much about Syria, but this isn't Afghanistan. People there are educated. Many of the Islamists fighting there aren't even Syrians ! Syria isn't at war with us so there is no question of carpet bombing the country, that would indeed be a colossal mistake, on top of being highly illegal and immoral.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Acheron
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:05 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
I remember the countless posters here cheering the Egyptian revolution and the ouster of Murbarak - and look where that got us.

Usually by people who think that democracy and human rights is "one-size-fits-all" affair

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
We're in Afghanistan because the original mission was not only to catch Bin Laden but also to remove the regime that allowed him and his organization to exist and thrive and replace it with a new one, and then to make sure that that regime is stable enough to survive on its own.

In this case you would be replacing a secularist nutjob with limited regional ambitions in a russian/iranian leash with a bunch of islamic nutjobs with global ambitions and deep pockets.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
I'm not sure that bombing anyone back to the Stone Age will help much, other than creating more generations of resentment and trouble, Any intervention needs to be a little more intelligent that just blast the crap out the country.

Is not like there is anything left to bomb in Syria, anyway.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 29):
The chemical weapons were there, Saddam Hussein moved them to Syria, and hence we now have this problem.

I hope that was a joke...
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5546
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 24):
Any intervention should be UN-led, with the focus on protecting civilians.

And how is that going to happen with Syria's puppet masters having power of veto in the UN security council.

High time a re set of security council permanent members was effected..
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
bennett123
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:12 pm

Who would you include as permanent members?.
 
SoJo
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:29 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting greasespot (Reply 18):
Nothing. I am tired of the middle east. We do nothing we are to blame. We do something they hate us for interfering.

I just don't care anymore that they are killing themselves.

Seriously does anyone actually believe that the so called rebels will be any less brutal than Assad

Thanks for saying just how I feel. Stay away and it will sort its self out. As long as they don't threaten us, stuff 'em.
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5546
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 34):
Who would you include as permanent members?.

I wouldn't
I do not believe there is a place in the UN for permanent Security Council members.

Ths is not the '60s
Giving any particular megalomaniac(or their "government") power to decide global affairs is just plain wrong.

Perhaps a complete rewrite of the UN charter is needed...

.. or just demolish the house of cards the UN has become...
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
bennett123
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:25 pm

Would you continue having a Security Council at all?.
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5546
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:33 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 37):
Would you continue having a Security Council at all?.

No

But as I am not a fan of the UN or its abject failure to perform it's mission over the past 6 decades I may be biased.

If anyone can provide an argument that validates the investment placed in the UN over that time frame I would be happy to hear it.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19821
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:07 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
Mostly, I don't know how democracy can be imposed on a nation that has no real understanding of it.

Simply, actually. You write their constitution for them as a condition of military assistance and make it clear that any attempt to tamper with the basic human rights and democratic principles in that Constitution will result in full annexation.

But nobody has the stones to do that. They want to "allow them self-determination," which is anathema to the idea of assisting them militarily with a revolution.

And given the fact that these rebels have been responsible for sectarian attacks on Christians, I'm not sure we're taking the high road by helping them.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
bennett123
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:13 pm

I am aware of the limitations of the UN.

However, the alternative is that anyone with plenty of guns has a free rein.

Might is right.

Seems a worse alternative.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18260
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:19 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
Simply, actually. You write their constitution for them as a condition of military assistance and make it clear that any attempt to tamper with the basic human rights and democratic principles in that Constitution will result in full annexation.

The history of Iraq - a created country - suggests that doesn't work.

From almost the day of its creation Iraq has only ever been stable under military occupation (usually British) or under a dictator, such as Saddam Hussein, whether that dictator was called President or King.

Iraq was probably doomed as a democracy from the day it was created, because of the Kurdish issue - but then, of course, the Kurds were promised their own country at Versailles - the Treaty of Sevres - but that didn't happen because of the Turkish revolution and the subsequent Treaty of Lausanne.

Why would anyone "impose" a constitution anyway? Surely it is the right of the people to be governed which ever way they want?

On a personal note, Iraq was a safer place for most gay people under Saddam Hussein than under this present government. At least we had a police secured place to meet.

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-29 12:19:56]
aeternum nauta
 
Ant72LBA
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 7:42 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:38 pm

BBC reporting that British Parliament has rejected any military intervention in Syria - vote just in.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:16 pm

Quoting Ant72LBA (Reply 43):
BBC reporting that British Parliament has rejected any military intervention in Syria - vote just in.

Great news.

Lets hope that any US lead aggression, is halted too.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/britain-...ilitary-action-20130830-2suay.html
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
JoePatroni707
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:58 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:17 pm

Quoting Ant72LBA (Reply 43):

And that affects the USA how?? We dont need Englands support to attack Syria.
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2591
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:31 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 45):
And that affects the USA how?? We dont need Englands support to attack Syria.

Maybe, but to say it doesn't affect the USA at all is ludicrous. Military action is always viewed as being less justifiable when taken unilaterally. That affects the USA's international image greatly.

Having said that the WH have already reportedly ruled out unilateral action, so unless France fancy getting their hands dirty, it seems like nothing is actually going to happen, thank goodness.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
einsteinboricua
Posts: 4708
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:34 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 38):
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 37):
Would you continue having a Security Council at all?.

No

But as I am not a fan of the UN or its abject failure to perform it's mission over the past 6 decades I may be biased.

If anyone can provide an argument that validates the investment placed in the UN over that time frame I would be happy to hear it.

A reform of the UNSC can be enacted where you strip the absolute veto power of the permanent members and if 3/5 permanent members vote for an action (rather than abstain) along with the majority of the non-permanent ones, then it's binding. Makes for a consensus instead of a threat and inaction. Right now, a single veto derails action and at times votes among permanent members have been 3-0-2. That's a majority of permanent members even if they vote against.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 45):
And that affects the USA how?? We dont need Englands support to attack Syria.

It doesn't, but then again, if you have a military alliance with a country, why would you undertake the mission alone? We all know how Iraq ended, so it only makes sense that if the UK and other NATO partners reject action then the US would be wise to also reject it. Syria has done nothing to the US and if US allies won't help the US police the world (which they shouldn't) this time, then the US should also step back.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 29):
We would not be in this position if back in 2003 at the start of the Iraq war the democrats got on board sooner to authorize the war. The chemical weapons were there, Saddam Hussein moved them to Syria, and hence we now have this problem. Obama needs to get on the ball and bomb Syria back to the Stone Age before we have another issue.


I have nothing else to say.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
damirc
Posts: 726
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:41 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 45):
And that affects the USA how?? We dont need Englands support to attack Syria.

Go right for it. Hope you are aware who you are helping with attacking Assad. Because the FSA is peaceful people who have been dragged into this war, without any foreign influence or help. They will surely respect the freedoms (and let them live) the Alawites, the Christians, the Shia and the few remaining Jews. Go right ahead. But when you create another fundamentalist Islamic state in the Middle East you will only have yourselves to blame for it.

Assad is evil. But it is the lesser evil in this civil war (if you can call it civil war when foreign factions are fighting on both sides (Hez on the Syrian side, too many to list on the FSA side)). If there is one war the west should not touch with a 10 foot pole it is this one. But alas, the red line has been crossed (who wants to wait for proof that it was the government side that is responsible for the chemical attack, let's just barge in head over heels) and the US will go ahead and spread freedom, joy and beautiful roses. That the concept works can be attested by citizens of Afghanistan, Iraq (whose peaceful and calm lives everyone in the west can only aspire to) and Lybia (where milk and honey has flowed since the assassination of Ghaddafi). The US will of course not be alone in attacking Syria. It will be joined by the coalition of the willing, the occupied (Afghanistan, Iraq and Lybia are saying high btw) and the coalition of those one can't find on the map without using a rather large magnifying glass.

Sorry this is overflowing with sarcasm, but this is now getting too silly. Is the west now fighting against islamic fundamentalism or alongside it? Lybia was an unclear case and now Syria is rather questionable. Sorry, but I do not understand this world any longer.

D.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 4140
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:47 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 29):
We would not be in this position if back in 2003 at the start of the Iraq war the democrats got on board sooner to authorize the war. The chemical weapons were there, Saddam Hussein moved them to Syria, and hence we now have this problem

Don't be silly

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 34):
Who would you include as permanent members?.

I would perhaps add Brazil and maybe a smaller country like Norway  
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 45):
And that affects the USA how?? We dont need Englands support to attack Syria.

We don't really know what effects a campaign against Syria will generate. Other countries in the region might be drawn into the mess aswell. It would be smart of the US to gather as much backing as possible before hell breaks loose. This might become a bigger thing that you bargained for.

I really don't understand why the US, UK and France are in such a hurry. Wait for the inspectors to come back and have them present their report.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Syria: What Is To Be Done?

Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 45):
And that affects the USA how?? We dont need Englands support to attack Syria.

You may well end up wanting/needing the UK's support. Especially if there is any truth to this article.

"Russia sends warships to Mediterranean as Syria tension rises"


http://www.smh.com.au/world/russia-s...-tension-rises-20130830-2su45.html
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests