photopilot
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Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:22 pm

Alright, I have always agreed with not discriminating with those people who have physical handicaps. But good grief, Iowa is issuing gun permits to allow legally blind or completely blind people to carry concealed guns in public. Should this be allowed in the interests of public safety?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-gun-permits-to-the-blind/2780303/

(fair use excerpt)
"Iowa is granting permits to acquire or carry guns in public to people who are legally or completely blind.

No one questions the legality of the permits. State law does not allow sheriffs to deny an Iowan the right to carry a weapon based on physical ability.

The quandary centers squarely on public safety. Advocates for the disabled and Iowa law enforcement officers disagree over whether it's a good idea for visually disabled Iowans to have weapons.
 
comorin
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:55 pm

I am afraid the Second Amendment pretty much takes care of that fundamental right. I honestly believe there was a typo in the Constitution and it should have been "the Rght to Bare Arms". Anyway, we are stuck with it for now.
Next: The ADA will probably enforce the hiring of visually disadvantaged pilots - hopefully we can get those seeing-eye dogs up to speed quickly.
 
ALTF4
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:21 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 1):
Constitution and it should have been "the Rght to Bare Arms". Anyway, we are stuck with it for now

For now? What other parts of the constitution should we invalidate, while we're at it?

[Edited 2013-09-09 06:21:42]
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Mir
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:38 pm

This is one area where public safety interest would clearly override the 2nd Amendment (though I'm not even sure that's an issue here, as I don't believe it's ever been established that there's a right to a concealed weapons permit). If you don't have the visual acuity necessary to drive a car, you shouldn't be having a gun out in public.

-Mir
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:30 pm

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):
Alright, I have always agreed with not discriminating with those people who have physical handicaps. But good grief, Iowa is issuing gun permits to allow legally blind or completely blind people to carry concealed guns in public. Should this be allowed in the interests of public safety?

When a blind man goes on a shooting rampage (and manages to hit anything) then I agree we MIGHT have an issue. until then, it's a pointless discussion.
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:48 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 1):
The ADA will probably enforce the hiring of visually disadvantaged pilots - hopefully we can get those seeing-eye dogs up to speed quickly.

Isn't that already the case ? I'm kidding, but it's a known fact European pilots that can't get a medical because of an eye defect (corrected of course) can get it in the US.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
photopilot
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
When a blind man goes on a shooting rampage (and manages to hit anything) then I agree we MIGHT have an issue. until then, it's a pointless discussion.

So you're saying that Society (in general) should only be RE-active instead of PRO-active in preventing such an occurrence.

And of course, what happens when a blind person shoots and kills someone because "he thought he heard something" and it turns out to be the FedEx guy making a delivery? Ooooops.... sorry, just won't cut it.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
When a blind man goes on a shooting rampage (and manages to hit anything) then I agree we MIGHT have an issue. until then, it's a pointless discussion.

No, it's not, if people want to be proactive rather than reactive.

The issue isn't a shooting rampage. The issue is a blind person hitting whatever target they are attempting to hit, even if it's in self-defense.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 2):
For now? What other parts of the constitution should we invalidate, while we're at it?

It's not a new concept. The Constitution has had other parts invalidated in the past (like Prohibition).

I happen to generally support the 2nd Amendment, but I don't think it's a free-for-all.
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Stabilator
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:53 pm

Blind people can't fly. Carrying a gun is a far greater responsibility/liability than flying imo. Am I discriminating? Perhaps, but when someone who CAN'T SEE, tries to shoot someone, the chance of he/she hitting someone besides their target is far greater than someone with normal vision.
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ArmitageShanks
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:14 pm

Should people be able to do it? Sure. If you take the required safety classes, pass a background check, and follow local laws (no guns in bars, private businesses that don't allow it, while drinking, etc).

Do I think it's weird for someone to carry around town? Absolutely. I can understand it if you're making night deliveries in the Bronx but going shopping at Safeway in Dallas... not so much.

The only time I carry a weapon is when I'm going to the range. I used to take one when camping for bears/crazy people but quickly stopped after it was just dead weight.

[Edited 2013-09-09 09:15:27]
 
Flighty
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):
The quandary centers squarely on public safety. Advocates for the disabled and Iowa law enforcement officers disagree over whether it's a good idea for visually disabled Iowans to have weapons.

IMO, it is no different from any other handgun permit.

There is no question that handguns diminish safety - both for the owner and the surrounding community. Arguably for LEOs as well.

The only question is rights. I say give the blind people their weapon. It is the same situation as any other person. Yes. It is unsafe. If we want to have the debate about gun safety, let's have it. But that's not on the table.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:39 pm

Can a completely blind person actually learn to shoot with any discernible level of accuracy? Honest question.
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:46 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 6):
So you're saying that Society (in general) should only be RE-active instead of PRO-active in preventing such an occurrence.
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):
No, it's not, if people want to be proactive rather than reactive.

Absolutely, society (and by that, we mean government) should be reactive. It is the traditional Progressive conceit that government employees are smarter than the rest of us, and that they should proactively guide the citizenry as to what they should or should not be allowed to do.

I have yet to see any indication of such intelligence on the part of government - indeed if we all ran our lives and businesses the way government is run, we would all be in prison.
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Mir
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:24 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Absolutely, society (and by that, we mean government) should be reactive. It is the traditional Progressive conceit that government employees are smarter than the rest of us, and that they should proactively guide the citizenry as to what they should or should not be allowed to do.

By that logic, we should not have driver's tests - everyone gets their license automatically, and only after they have demonstrated a lack of fitness to hold it (accident, driving drunk, etc.) would their license be subject to revocation. Of course, it's very possible that they'd kill or severely injure people demonstrating that lack of fitness.

This isn't economic stuff, this is public safety. It's not difficult to look at a situation, use some common sense, and say "that seems like it's just asking for trouble, maybe we should mitigate that risk".

-Mir
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
When a blind man goes on a shooting rampage (and manages to hit anything) then I agree we MIGHT have an issue. until then, it's a pointless discussion.

Or we can wait for someone to notice the blind person has a firearm and 'rob them blind' and then shoot them with it...

Yeah, no problem here...
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fr8mech
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:45 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
If you don't have the visual acuity necessary to drive a car, you shouldn't be having a gun out in public.

I know 2 people who are legally blind that have been granted a driver's license with restrictions.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):
The Constitution has had other parts invalidated in the past (like Prohibition).

Correct. Prohibition was (is) the only Amendment to the Constitution that directly restricted the rights of the people vs. restricting the rights of government. It was poison from the beginning and goes went directly against the very nature of the Constitution.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 9):
The only time I carry a weapon is when I'm going to the range. I used to take one when camping for bears/crazy people but quickly stopped after it was just dead weight.

There is a quotation I read in a book about Vikings I read 15 (long before I started carrying a gun everywhere) or so years ago that stuck with me:
"Never walk away from your home ahead of your axe and sword. You can't feel a battle in your bones or foresee a fight" ~The Havamal

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 9):
Should people be able to do it? Sure. If you take the required safety classes, pass a background check, and follow local laws (no guns in bars, private businesses that don't allow it, while drinking, etc).

If a person can pass the requirements for carrying a firearm, I don't see how a state can deny the permit.

Now, that's not to say the state shouldn't visit the permit requirements and see if an additional, reasonable restriction is required.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
Can a completely blind person actually learn to shoot with any discernible level of accuracy? Honest question.

I'm sure there are those who can...and those who can't. Like I said, I know 2 who are allowed to drive, with restrictions.

When given the chance, I've practiced shooting in extremely low-light conditions and did fairly well. Of course, I have a base of knowledge that a blind person picking up a gun for the first time (or hundredth time) does not have.
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romeobravo
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:51 pm

I think the bigger problem is giving guns to people that can see.
 
smittyone
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
It is the traditional Progressive conceit that government employees are smarter than the rest of us, and that they should proactively guide the citizenry as to what they should or should not be allowed to do.

Agreed. But the lesson I take is that the people should guide their government to be proactive where it makes sense, via their elected representatives.

As much as I support the 2nd Amendment I think it's a mistake to suggest that the exercise of the RIGHT to bear arms shouldn't come with at least a cursory evaluation of a person's ability to shoulder the RESPONSIBILITY that comes with it. Issuing gun permits to blind people is to the Second Amendment what 'yelling "fire" in a crowded theater' is to the First.

Failure to exercise responsibility in bearing arms is what may some day result in that right going away - legally via our Constitutional amendment process when the people decide that they've had enough. As a gun rights supporter I don't see this as a 'win' for the Second Amendment...rather it's handing the other side a valid argument to undermine it.
 
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:02 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 17):
As much as I support the 2nd Amendment I think it's a mistake to suggest that the exercise of the RIGHT to bear arms shouldn't come with at least a cursory evaluation of a person's ability to shoulder the RESPONSIBILITY that comes with it. Issuing gun permits to blind people is to the Second Amendment what 'yelling "fire" in a crowded theater' is to the First.

Oh, I agree that it is not a brilliant idea for a blind man to carry a gun. But when you are talking about a person's basic rights, we should be extremely careful about banning certain people from having them.

What if we banned stupid people from voting? Personally I like the idea, but would never propose it - it would be a goldmine for abuse.
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bhill
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:18 pm

No so sure it matters....when I hear/read the news about how many rounds were fired by private citizens or LEO's...and nobody was killed....much less hit....

As for voting, I think one should have some kind of skin in the game...........
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:42 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 19):
As for voting, I think one should have some kind of skin in the game...........

Again, personally I agree. No right to vote unless you are a net taxpayer (rather than recipient), for instance. But it would be dangerous to propose. Dictatorship of the majority and all that.

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
By that logic, we should not have driver's tests - everyone gets their license automatically, and only after they have demonstrated a lack of fitness to hold it (accident, driving drunk, etc.) would their license be subject to revocation. Of course, it's very possible that they'd kill or severely injure people demonstrating that lack of fitness.

Perhaps you did not read the OP.

Quoting photopilot (Thread starter):
Iowa is issuing gun permits to allow legally blind or completely blind people to carry concealed guns in public.

I don't know the specifics for Iowa, but in each state that I've passed a CCW test there were classes and actual tests on a shooting range to show that you can a) manipulate a gun and b) hit a target. I think it's safe to presume that if you can't do those things, you can't get a license, just as you can't get a driver's license if you can't show you can't control a car reasonably well.

What we are talking about here is whether there should be a law, in black and white, that says, "People who are legally blind cannot carry a gun". Currently there is no such law, as it would clearly run afoul of the Disabilities Act, although effectively blind people are prevented from having a CCW simply because they can't pass the test, so having such a law would be a) pointless, and b) discriminatory to those people who are legally blind, but still have enough sight to pass the tests. I know a couple of people who are legally blind, but who actually do have some sight - One has quite good sight in the daytime, it's only at night he has a problem. It's like having a camera aperture stuck at f/28.
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RussianJet
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Currently there is no such law, as it would clearly run afoul of the Disabilities Act,

Just a thought, but why do we have rules on aircraft that stipulate that only able-bodied people may sit by the emergency exits? Is that not just as discriminatory as having a rule preventing blind people from carrying guns?
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Flighty
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
Or we can wait for someone to notice the blind person has a firearm and 'rob them blind' and then shoot them with it...

Of course. In some states, that would be legal.   
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:54 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 21):
Just a thought, but why do we have rules on aircraft that stipulate that only able-bodied people may sit by the emergency exits? Is that not just as discriminatory as having a rule preventing blind people from carrying guns?

As I recall, that is a regulation, not a law. It would be interesting to see if it would pass muster if dragged before a judge.
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fr8mech
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
I don't know the specifics for Iowa,

The following is from www.handgunlaw.us :

Acceptable Training:
 Completion of any National Rifle Association (NRA) handgun safety training course.
 Completion of any handgun safety training course available to the general public offered by a law enforcement agency, community college, college, private or public institution or organization, or firearms training school, utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or certain other firearms training certifying bodies (such as the Iowa Law Enforcement Academy).
 Completion of any handgun safety training course offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of a law enforcement or security enforcement agency approved by the Iowa Department of Public Safety.
 Completion of small arms training while serving with the armed forces of the United States as evidenced by any of the following:
1. For personnel released or retired from active duty, possession of an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions.
2. For personnel on active duty or serving in one of the national guard or reserve components of the armed forces of the United States, possession of a certificate of completion of basic training with a service record of successful completion of small arms training and qualification.
3. Completion of a law enforcement agency firearms training course that qualifies a peace officer to carry a firearm in the normal course of the peace officer's duties.


I suspect that most of these courses do have a range requirement to be granted a certificate...but I guess that depends on the course. Further, from the same website:

Range qualification may be part of a training program identified above; however, range qualification is not a mandatory element of training for initial issuance of a permit.

So, it seems that you don't have to prove you can hit a target. I am not really a fan of this. I do believe that firearm manipulation and a demonstration of skill should be a requirement before being granted a CCW permit.
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Redd
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:47 pm

In Iowa there is a law that an man with a mustache cannot kiss a woman in public, but a blind man can legally carry a firearm.... Funny place 
 
Mir
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
I don't know the specifics for Iowa, but in each state that I've passed a CCW test there were classes and actual tests on a shooting range to show that you can a) manipulate a gun and b) hit a target. I think it's safe to presume that if you can't do those things, you can't get a license, just as you can't get a driver's license if you can't show you can't control a car reasonably well.

If you read the attached article, you'd see that there is no accuracy/competency test to get a concealed weapons permit in Iowa.

-Mir
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Flighty
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:41 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
As I recall, that is a regulation, not a law. It would be interesting to see if it would pass muster if dragged before a judge.

So is everything in the air AFAIK.

Disobeying quoted FAA regs such as this amounts to "interference" which apparently the FAA itself can fine you for (civil penalty). The maximum penalty is $25,000.

Realistically, you get arrested by police when this occurs...

Of course, assaulting a crew member in any way, or endangering anyone would be a federal crime.
 
dragon-wings
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:40 am

What good is going through safety courses if you can't see your intended target??
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hOMSaR
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:52 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
It is the traditional Progressive conceit that government employees are smarter than the rest of us, and that they should proactively guide the citizenry as to what they should or should not be allowed to do.

I have yet to see any indication of such intelligence on the part of government - indeed if we all ran our lives and businesses the way government is run, we would all be in prison.

Totally false logic here. There is no such belief that government employees are smarter than others. What there is is a strong belief amongst a certain segment of the population (and that "segment" could be a handful of people, half the population, or 80% of the population, depending on the issue) that certain policies or standards should be enacted, and by the nature of our society, the only realistically orderly way to enact and enforce those policies/standards is through government (by passage of laws), which we direct through popular election of representatives who then vote on whether or not to pass such laws. At least, that's how it's supposed to work in theory.

But then we have folks that like to set up straw man arguments such as this mythical claim that progressives think government employees are smarter than other folks, and from that false logic, it is not really possible to actually debate the issue at hand.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:22 am

Hmm, tricky one. When I first read this I wondered why there was even a discussion about this, but I see the problem here. It appears that legally blind people are able to satisfy the requirements to get a permit so after all that, denying them a permit because they are blind would be illegal. I think a law saying blind people are banned from carrying would be illegal, but if they have a requirement for weapon competency (something I think all states should have in addition to other simple but responsible and effective laws) and all blind people just so happen to fail, I think it's an ok test as long as the intent is to prove competency, not just "ban blind people."

So to answer the OP's question: under the legal framework in place, yes. But what do I think? I think there should be reasonable measures out there that would stop incompetent people from carrying. That includes visually impaired... I don't mean incompetent in a derogatory way but unfortunately if you aren't really able to identify a target and if you can't accurately hit it, I don't think you should be carrying a gun, and a common sense prevention like that doesn't violate the 2nd Amendment

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 24):
So, it seems that you don't have to prove you can hit a target. I am not really a fan of this. I do believe that firearm manipulation and a demonstration of skill should be a requirement before being granted a CCW permit.

Agreed. I believe the right to bear arms is a great responsibility and people should be able to demonstrate an ability to handle that responsibility. I don't think many rules like basic firearm training, proper storage, etc infringes on any rights. It's just a reasonable limit... reasonable limits exist for basically every amendment in the Bill of Rights
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Pellegrine
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:52 am

I could post a lengthy response to the problem, but in essence, is there any wonder why the USA has the highest rate of gun violence and deaths of any developed country per capita?

LOL AFAIK, there are only 10-20 are so countries in the entire world with higher rates of (non-war) gun violence. Developed or developing. Most of them are in Central/South America, some of those...drugs...poverty. Guess where the drugs are going?
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fr8mech
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:20 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 31):
I could post a lengthy response to the problem, but in essence, is there any wonder why the USA has the highest rate of gun violence and deaths of any developed country per capita?



Gun violence? Maybe. But overall violence and murder rate? No.

Kates and Mauser

An interesting read.

But, I find it interesting that you're conflating a discussion about whether or not someone who is legally blind should be granted a permit to carry a concealed firearm and gun violence in the US. The two issues are only tangentially related...in that they both deal with firearms.

This isn't a discussion about gun control, it is a discussion about whether or not someone wiith a disability should be disqualified from obtaining a carry concealed weapon permit.
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cmf
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:31 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 32):
Kates and Mauser

An interesting read.

For what? An example of cherry picking data and inconsistent application of logic based on what side of the argument it favors, maybe. As factual information in the gun control debate, not at all.
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Pellegrine
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:18 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 31):
there are only 10-20 are so countries

Ugh, meant "or so".

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 32):

Kates and Mauser

An interesting read.

This is a horribly prejudiced study.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 32):
But, I find it interesting that you're conflating a discussion about whether or not someone who is legally blind should be granted a permit to carry a concealed firearm and gun violence in the US. The two issues are only tangentially related...in that they both deal with firearms.

I'd like to know why you find that interesting. There is de jure discrimination in the USA all the time. Felons can't vote with any frequency. That is discrimination. Some people decided way back when that felons (depending on the state and circumstance) lose their right to vote. People registered as a sex offenders cannot live anywhere they choose. That is discrimination. Both of these principles have reasoning behind them, even if I, nor anyone else agrees with them.

Maybe I can pique your interest. My reason for conflating the issues is this: The United States, descriptionally as that...a union of states, is rather peculiarly concerned with individual gun ownership rights to a fault. That Iowa has issued, and under the law, will issue permits allowing ***people who cannot see to drive, or fill out the application forms for said permit*** to carry guns in public is the ultimate in hilarity and tragedy.

A Shakespearean broadway play is in order.
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fr8mech
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:57 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 34):
That Iowa has issued, and under the law, will issue permits allowing ***people who cannot see to drive, or fill out the application forms for said permit*** to carry guns in public is the ultimate in hilarity and tragedy.


And, it is my opinion that that error should be visited by the legislature...as it should be in any state where the same is true.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 34):
I'd like to know why you find that interesting.


Because, as I stated, the thread is not about gun control, per se, but about this gap in Iowa's concealed carry laws. In fact, I find flaw in the fact that Iowa (and some other states) do not require range time prior to issuing a permit to carry concealed.

I'm not exactly sure why you brought up sex offenders and felons.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 34):
My reason for conflating the issues is this:


But, gun violence has zero to do with Iowa's lapse.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 34):
This is a horribly prejudiced study.


Why?
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Kiwirob
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:32 am

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 28):
What good is going through safety courses if you can't see your intended target??

To allow blind people to carry and safely use guns all citizens of Iowa will be issued with audible locator beacons.
 
PhilBy
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:24 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 36):
Because, as I stated, the thread is not about gun control, per se, but about this gap in Iowa's concealed carry laws. In fact, I find flaw in the fact that Iowa (and some other states) do not require range time prior to issuing a permit to carry concealed.

Surely licenses for concealed carry are a part of the gun control debate. In my opinion it would be more logical for the ability to correctly use a gun to be verified before ownership is permitted with an additional course/training/check on the responsability/sanity of the owner before a concealed carry is allowed. This would of course raise the question as to whether it is prefereable for the average gun carrier to be an excellent shot who shoots at the slightest excuse or an acceptable shot who only shoots in an extreme situation   

But, on topic, some 'legally blind' people have quite good vision in some situations and there have been cases of them being quite good in paralympic type shooting events. I've known some 'legally blind (visually impaired)' toxophilites who were better shots than me.
 
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:02 pm

I'm rarely amazed by anything said by the US pro gun lobby, but in this instance I'm amazed at the degree of insanity exhibited by people thinking for even one microsecond that a blind person with a gun is acceptable. Chances are that the inevitable outcome will be a blind person shooting a close relative as they enter a room because they thought it was an intruder. Not only shouldn't they be able to bear arms in public, they shouldn't bear arms at all.

The right to bear arms needs to be balanced against the right to not be shot by your husband/wife oblivious to your presence.

Presently the paralympic runner Oscar Pistorius is awaiting trial for shooting his girlfriend, his alibi is that in the dark of the night he misidentified her as a burglar. To a blind person the darkness is permanant thus greatly increasing the chances of such an incident.

The lunatics really have taken control of the asylum in Iowa   
 
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pvjin
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:42 pm

How would a blind person be able to handle a gun when gun owners who see perfectly fine just shoot first and ask questions later?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...riend-jumped-closet-scare-him.html

I just read this article where this woman decided to scare her friend by hiding in a closet and jumped out from there when the guy arrived and got shot by him.

It seems like some of these American gun owners seem to think whenever something unexpected happens and they get scared it's okay to shoot first even if you can't see the person you are shooting at properly and ask questions later.

Is American society really so messed up that your average Joe would need a gun to defend himself or is it just attitude thing?
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
ALTF4
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:34 pm

A blind person carrying a gun would be stupid. We can't outlaw every case of stupidity, though. Maybe this is a good candidate - maybe not. I generally believe that the fewer laws we have the better, except for that protect life, liberty, and property. Preventing blind people from carrying guns might protect life. The real question, however, is would any blind people carry and actually fire a weapon? Being blind, I would be afraid of going to jail for a very long time by not being in 'the right' for firing the gun. People seem to forget that you can't always fire a weapon whenever and wherever you damn well please and not have consequences.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):
It's not a new concept. The Constitution has had other parts invalidated in the past (like Prohibition).

While not new, the flippant nature of some people's approach to claiming parts of the constitution should be removed is concerning, to me. I'm not implying you are/were being flippant, just that there is a general attitude towards that. Again, in my opinion (can't be too careful not to piss somebody off these days).

Quoting pvjin (Reply 39):
It seems like some of these American gun owners seem to think whenever something unexpected happens and they get scared it's okay to shoot first even if you can't see the person you are shooting at properly and ask questions later.

Is American society really so messed up that your average Joe would need a gun to defend himself or is it just attitude thing?

No, American society is not that messed up. People blow this stuff out of proportion. Sure, I see people carrying all the time (I can usually spot a concealed gun fairly easily) - but that doesn't make things unsafe. That person is not just going to pull the gun out and shoot the gas station up rambo style for no reason. If somebody were to do that, they probably have either already done that and are now dead or locked up or in hiding, or would do something equally disturbing even without a gun.

And yet, I have personally have drawn my weapon once when somebody attempted to carjack me. It was at night, I was the only car around and stopped at a traffic light. Some guy rushed my car with a window breaker - I pulled my gun out and he did a 180 when he saw it.

But yeah, you're right. Next time I'll get out of the car and take a bow as he drives off.
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pvjin
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:48 pm

Or you could have just violated the traffic light and driven away without the guy being able to do anything. Shouldn't be a problem if you were indeed only car around there.
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PPVRA
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:49 pm

There are obvious limitations, but that doesn't mean a blind person can't shoot a thug assaulting them at very close range. From what I understand there have been guns designed for very close range, close enough as in you can touch your target.
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:29 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 32):
This isn't a discussion about gun control, it is a discussion about whether or not someone wiith a disability should be disqualified from obtaining a carry concealed weapon permit.

When the disability prevents the person from competently using the weapon in question, the answer is very clearly yes.

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fr8mech
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 43):
When the disability prevents the person from competently using the weapon in question, the answer is very clearly yes.

As long as 'competent' is broadly defined, we are in agreement.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
There are obvious limitations, but that doesn't mean a blind person can't shoot a thug assaulting them at very close range. From what I understand there have been guns designed for very close range, close enough as in you can touch your target

In that case, I would suggest that a person arm himself with one of these. A less than lethal option that may provide an adequate response and allowing for a margin of error. The 2 shots is troublesome, but the expanded cone of coverage helps out a little.

Of course, there are some localities where pepper spray of this sort is as illegal as a gun.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 40):
A blind person carrying a gun would be stupid. We can't outlaw every case of stupidity, though. Maybe this is a good candidate - maybe not. I generally believe that the fewer laws we have the better, except for that protect life, liberty, and property

I suggest that the various states simply modify their CCW laws to add range qualification to their minimum requirements.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 40):
Preventing blind people from carrying guns might protect life.

This discussion has been limited, for the most part, to whether a blind person should be allowed a CCW permit. Let's expand it a small bit: should someone who is incapable of qualifying at a range (such as a blind person) be allowed to own a gun at all? Keep one in his home?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
ALTF4
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:24 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 41):
Or you could have just violated the traffic light and driven away without the guy being able to do anything. Shouldn't be a problem if you were indeed only car around there.

Which would have involved potentially running over him since he approached from the front, from the crosswalk directly in front of me. He still would have been close enough to smash my window. I don't know the dynamics of smashed car windows, but I would imagine having glass explode 6 inches from my face might result in injury to myself.
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pvjin
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:50 pm

Well if he got scared of a gun I would assume he would have avoided getting hit by a car too.

But okay, I can surely understand why many Americans want to keep their guns when crazy stuff like that happens, some random stranger trying to rob a car at traffic lights (or really any car with someone inside it) is pretty much unheard of around here.

Still I believe the best way to approach this all would be fight against inequality and social problems & crime it creates, maybe then people wouldn't feel they needs to carry a gun around in their daily life anymore.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:32 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 46):

Well if he got scared of a gun I would assume he would have avoided getting hit by a car too.

But okay, I can surely understand why many Americans want to keep their guns when crazy stuff like that happens, some random stranger trying to rob a car at traffic lights (or really any car with someone inside it) is pretty much unheard of around here.

It's pretty easy to look back at something in hindsight but it appears that ALTF4 actually had a legitimate instance. He didn't just take pot shots or anything, I don't really see a problem but in addition to reasonable gun control.......

Quoting pvjin (Reply 46):
Still I believe the best way to approach this all would be fight against inequality and social problems & crime it creates, maybe then people wouldn't feel they needs to carry a gun around in their daily life anymore.

      This would solve a lot of the problem, not only the gun violence problem, but many many other social problems.
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TWA772LR
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:38 am

I know in Texas in order to get your CHL, you have to show proficiency with a handgun, as well as attend a class. Wouldn't other states have the proficiency law too?

Obviously a legally blind person would have a harder time showing proficiency compared to someone with 20/20 vision, but they still have an equal chance to prove themselves.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Should Blind People Carry Guns In Public?

Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:57 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 48):
I know in Texas in order to get your CHL, you have to show proficiency with a handgun, as well as attend a class. Wouldn't other states have the proficiency law too?

Every state is different. GA just needed your fingerprints and $75 (though that price may be higher nowadays)

Yeah, not really a fan of that
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