ImperialEagle
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Libyan Blunders Keep On Giving

Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:52 am

Just seems like no end to the bad new for this administration.
Here's todays good news:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...s-equipment-stolen-in-libya-raids/

Just another insight into the wanton incompetence of the Obama Administration.

On the upside the administration is working wonders for Putin.
From today's WSJ:

wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324094704579066774128762480.html?mod=hp_opinion

[Edited 2013-09-11 17:56:49]
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
wingman
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:06 am

That article can't be real. Is it an Onion piece?

Terrorists can't get a hold of carbines: If I knew how to copy and paste I'd show you pictures of Libyans with AK 47s dating back to 1958.

Terrorists can't get a hold of night vision goggles: I can get some from the internet...does Libya have an internet? (maybe they stole one from the Special Internet Forces)

Terrorists can't a hold of laser pointers: uuuhhh, I can't even bring myself to repeat the above.

Is there anyone with a brain left at Fox News or do they just pander to people who would actually re-port their drivel as if it contained any kind of factual insight? I guess I'll have to go with "no" and "yes" on this final double Geopardee question.
 
mham001
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:38 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 1):

Terrorists can't get a hold of carbines: If I knew how to copy and paste I'd show you pictures of Libyans with AK 47s dating back to 1958.

Terrorists can't get a hold of night vision goggles: I can get some from the internet...does Libya have an internet? (maybe they stole one from the Special Internet Forces)

Terrorists can't a hold of laser pointers: uuuhhh, I can't even bring myself to repeat the above.

Is there anyone with a brain left at Fox News or do they just pander to people who would actually re-port their drivel as if it contained any kind of factual insight? I guess I'll have to go with "no" and "yes" on this final double Geopardee question.

Fox News seems to be quoting somebody. Are you hurt that they reported this at all? And I'd bet good money that those stolen weapons represent a nice step up in capability from what the average Libyan militia member is currently using.

In other news from Libya, a large bomb exploded outside the former US Embassy in Benghazi, now housing the foriegn ministry. AlQueda has opened up smuggling routes from the sout to fund itself. The police, army and government have made no presence and chaos is growing. You don't even have to go to Fox News to read all that in today's news.

Libya was a blunder.

[Edited 2013-09-11 18:43:35]
 
TheCommodore
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:56 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
Fox News seems to be quoting somebody.

Yeah.... who ?????

A "source".... well... who ????

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
And I'd bet good money that those stolen weapons represent a nice step up in capability from what the average Libyan militia member is currently using.

Just like the "militia" in Syria, getting hold of weapons given to them by the US   

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...s-usa-rebels-idUSBRE9891EZ20130910

Quote from said article.

"The United States is providing lethal assistance "because they are sure that the mechanisms that the SMC has established are well tested and they will be sure that the weapons are not falling into the wrong hands," Saleh said."

I wouldn't be so sure at the end of the day, that they don't turn out to be the "wrong hands" though. Like its happened before.

But you guys have been involved in some many ME conflicts, its hardly surprising captured/seized weaponry has fallen into the wrong hands during this time.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
Libya was a blunder.

And it wont be the last blunder either. There is another one just about to go off !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Powerslide
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Libyan Blunders Keep On Giving

Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:04 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
Libya was a blunder.

It is the cowards who run and live in Libya and Afghanistan who allow AlQ to takeover their country. They were given an opportunity to restart their country yet they ran away like little children. Only solution for both countries is to glass the place and start over.
 
solarflyer22
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:27 am

Quoting powerslide (Reply 4):
It is the cowards who run and live in Libya and Afghanistan who allow AlQ to takeover their country. They were given an opportunity to restart their country yet they ran away like little children. Only solution for both countries is to glass the place and start over.

I don't think in the west there is a understanding that places like Afghanistan and Libya are basically living 200 years in the past if not more. It will take 2-3 generations with a solid public education system before you see real change. Many of these places didn't really hit the industrial revolution until about WWII.
 
seb146
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:35 am

*facepalm* Not this sh*t again....

Rebels in Syria have Western weapons, therefore, Obama needs to be impeached!

That is the line of thinking among those in the "news" room at FOX. They just can't stand that Obama did something without invading and "nation building" like their hero.
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PHX787
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:26 am

We still don't know crap about what happened in Benghazi last year.

And this year another huge bombing took place....where's your news coverage of THAT, CNN? ?????????
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Acheron
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:26 am

Quoting powerslide (Reply 4):
It is the cowards who run and live in Libya and Afghanistan who allow AlQ to takeover their country. They were given an opportunity to restart their country yet they ran away like little children. Only solution for both countries is to glass the place and start over.

Shows your lack of understanding of how things work in the area and that rather idiotic and misguided notion that "democracy" works for everybody.
 
AyostoLeon
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:35 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 5):

Is this opinion of Libya based on having traveled to or lived in the country?

Quoting powerslide (Reply 4):

You may find that the situation is a bit more complex than cowards running away in the face of the bogeyman al Qaeda.

The current unrest is less about wanting to install any kind of Islamic emirate and more a reflection of clashes between different interest groups. At stake are matters like who will have access to political influence, resources, profitable contracts and jobs. Some groups may use the language of Islam if it suits them. Others argue over whether Libya should have a more centralised structure or should there be greater regional autonomy. The recent disruption to oil exports is an illustration of this.

In between, there are the mass of Libyans who just want to go about living their lives and who have no desire to live in another century, however much people in the West comfort themselves with that notion.
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zkojq
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:45 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
Libya was a blunder.

Whilst the transition of Libya's government isn't going as smoothly as we would like, I would say that the removal of a murderous autocrat in a manner that minimized civilian (and western military) deaths was reasonably successful. I'm sure the families of UTA 772 and Pan Am 103 victims are happy to see the end of Gaddafi.

Not everything is good, but there is progress.
http://www.libyaherald.com/2013/01/2...dom-success-stories/#axzz2eeZjH6OQ
http://www.economist.com/blogs/newsbook/2012/09/libya

Quote:
The most striking outcome of the congressional election in July was the relative failure of the Islamists, whose main party, Justice and Construction, allied to the Muslim Brotherhood, got only 17 out of the 80 seats elected by proportional representation on party lists, whereas a coalition of secularists, liberals and milder Islamists won 39
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
And this year another huge bombing took place....where's your news coverage of THAT, CNN? ?????????

Um here?
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/11/wo...ca/libya-benghazi-blast/index.html

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):
Just seems like no end to the bad new for this administration.

Especially when you use fox news as a source.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
That is the line of thinking among those in the "news" room at FOX. They just can't stand that Obama did something without invading and "nation building" like their hero.

But if he did do nation building they would crucify him for A) the cost and B) any american lives lost. You can't win with them and I hope Obama isn't wasting his time trying....and I'm not even a liberal.

As ever, just my 2c.  Smile

[Edited 2013-09-11 22:46:03]
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pvjin
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:55 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 8):
Shows your lack of understanding of how things work in the area and that rather idiotic and misguided notion that "democracy" works for everybody.

Indeed, democracy certainly does not work in Northern African and Middle Eastern Muslim countries, we have seen that very many times already.

Too bad Gaddafi lost it all, these countries need strong secular dictators in power to stay out of chaos.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
bennett123
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:32 am

zkojq

That assumes that that Libya did it.

My money has always been on a different theory.

Shortly before PanAm103, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iran Air A300.

I also note that when Gadaffi fell, there were expectations that the new leadership would "prove" that Gadaffi did it.

However, the issue just went quiet.
 
T prop
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:21 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):

Just another insight into the wanton incompetence of the Obama Administration.

So you think Obama himself should have been on sentry to guard our 24 now missing highly sensitive (because fox idiot news said so) M16's?  
 
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scbriml
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:44 am

Quoting T prop (Reply 13):
So you think Obama himself should have been on sentry to guard our 24 now missing highly sensitive (because fox idiot news said so) M16's?

Well, everything else is his fault, isn't it?
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MD11Engineer
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:08 pm

So far I have seen in the haqnds of Libyan militionaries:

AK-47 and AK-74 rifles, FN FAL rifles, G3 rifles and G36 rifles. The AK-74 and the G36 are current issue in their respective home countries (e.g. the G36 is the current standard rifle of the German Bundeswehr. Ghaddafi´s son, while "studying" in Bavaria, bought bunches of them from Heckler & Koch to equip his personal militia with them. An attempted prosecution by German prosecutors for illegal arms exports was stopped by the German government of this time (pre-revolution) due to national interests). The AK-74 is the current russian army issue. So a few M16s won´t make a difference.

Btw., in neighbouring Tunisia (where the Arab spring started) people are getting increasingly fed up with the Islamist (Muslim brothers style) government, which won the first elections after thevrevolution, and are calling for a secular government and state.

For comparison to Christians: The Muslim Brothers are the Sunni equivalent of ultraconservative Catholics, while the Wahabis, Salafists and AQ are the equivalent of the rabid bible thumping evangelists, with the bible in one hand and a rifle in the other.

Due to having been banned in the Arab countries since decades, the Muslim Brothers developed a conspirative hierarchical system and were well organised. Additionally funding from Saudi Arabia and Qatar allowed them to be free with handouts, this way they captured the votes of the uneducated poor. The secular part of the rebels were mostly small ad hoc groups, prone to infighting and arguments about how to run the country and mostly organised by idealistic political amateurs.

The Wahabi and Salafist groups were always militant and had a strict military hierarchy. Unlike the political amateurs of the secular groups they are willing to use force and to sacrifice themselves and others to reach their goals. For them death doesn´t matter because they will be rewarded in heaven anyway.

Jan
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casinterest
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:15 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):
Just seems like no end to the bad new for this administration.
Here's todays good news:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...s-equipment-stolen-in-libya-raids/

Just another insight into the wanton incompetence of the Obama Administration.

Really, at the end of the day you blame Obama? This article was obviously written by an idiot.

They don't question .
1. Why would US troops leave VITAL equipment at a Foreign compound without US oversight? Was the equipment even the US's anymore?
2. If at the end of the day we pulled out because the Libyan Military was not cooperating with the investigations?

There is no hard hitting journalistic credibility to any of this articles data, and it just proves further the point that Fake news is not much of the latter, but a lot of the former.
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mham001
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:55 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):
There is no hard hitting journalistic credibility to any of this articles data, and it just proves further the point that Fake news is not much of the latter, but a lot of the former.

I searched but I found NO other sources reporting this, even though they have State Department statements. In fact, I did not even know we had special forces in Libya until now. I'm not a fan of Fox News but I highly appreciate hearing ALL the news. Having 1200 Special Forces chased out of Libya is indeed interesting news.

When people attack Fox News for the sake of attacking a political point, they identify themselves as having an agenda that is certainly no better than Fox News. They are usually more interested in suppressing information.

Are you hurt that they reported this?
 
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casinterest
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:02 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
I searched but I found NO other sources reporting this

1st clue.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
In fact, I did not even know we had special forces in Libya until now.

2nd clue

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
In fact, I did not even know we had special forces in Libya

3rd clue

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
When people attack Fox News for the sake of attacking a political point, they identify themselves as having an agenda that is certainly no better than Fox News. They are usually more interested in suppressing information.

Are you the writer of the article mentioned? to turn around a clearly politically motivated and purely ignorant article into an attack on me, seems a bit off post unless you arte the author of such a piece of crap article.
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seb146
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:43 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
When people attack Fox News for the sake of attacking a political point, they identify themselves as having an agenda that is certainly no better than Fox News.

Here is what I see: They run a story and bring on "experts" who then tell everyone that Obama and Democrats are to blame. That is what is sold as news. At the same time, they bill themselves as "fair and balanced" but how can they be "fair and balanced" when all they do is blame Obama and the Democrats? No, MSNBC is no better, but at least they don't claim they are "fair and balanced".

If you truly like hearing news from all sides, why don't you read about this story from al-Jezeera? Why don't you see what BBC has to say?
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offloaded
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 5):
I don't think in the west there is a understanding that places like Afghanistan and Libya are basically living 200 years in the past if not more.

Afghanistan isn't much like Libya at all. There are only 6 million Libyans living in the 4th largest country in Africa (maybe 3rd now Sudan is divided in two). They have a lot of oil, free education, healthcare, fairly decent infrastructure, and now, they have freedom. Whilst it is far from perfect, most Libyans including 100% of the ones I know, have zero desire to turn Libya into Iran Part 2.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11):
Too bad Gaddafi lost it all, these countries need strong secular dictators in power to stay out of chaos.

After 40 years, I'm going to give the Libyans a chance of something better. I'm guessing you've never lived in fear, or lived somewhere where anyone opposing the regime simply disappeared; think USSR, GDR etc at their very worst.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 12):
My money has always been on a different theory.

  

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 9):
Is this opinion of Libya based on having traveled to or lived in the country?

I base mine on my time there between 82 and 89... and keeping in touch with friends. (I did suggest that the Mods update your flag 18 months ago; they're not exactly quick to respond....)
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
Gatorman96
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:29 pm

Not sure what the big deal is. So they came away with a few dozen specialized M-4's and night vision goggles. We are not the only country that produces these items and I'm sure militants have already purchased/stolen this equipment many times in the past.

Al Qaeda has acquired this equipment (including US issued military uniforms) many times in Afghanistan that was stripped off service members who were KIA.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a good thing by any stretch, but seems to be more of a political attack than anything else...
Cha brro
 
Gatorman96
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:34 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11):
Too bad Gaddafi lost it all, these countries need strong secular dictators in power to stay out of chaos.

You keep saying this and I fail to see your logic. If a dictatorship was so great, than why is there unrest in Libya, Egypt, Syria, et al in the first place? There is no chaos because the dictator kills anyone who utters a negative word about them.

Is that a society you'd like to live in to avoid "chaos?" Pretty sure you are in the minority here...
Cha brro
 
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pvjin
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:30 pm

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 22):
You keep saying this and I fail to see your logic. If a dictatorship was so great, than why is there unrest in Libya, Egypt, Syria, et al in the first place? There is no chaos because the dictator kills anyone who utters a negative word about them.

Is that a society you'd like to live in to avoid "chaos?" Pretty sure you are in the minority here...

I never said living in a dictatorship is nice, however it still beats what's happening in Iraq, people dying all the time because of bomb attacks committed by different religious extremist groups. As bad as Saddam was he at least kept those groups in order and by doing that probably saved quite a lot of civilian lives. (and yes, probably by gassing Kurdish people he killed even more but that's irrelevant as most of these dictators haven't been even half as bad as him)

I fear what's happening in Iraq might be the future in Syria too if Assad loses, while Libya and Egypt don't look as bad there's still fear that actual extremists might eventually gain too much power.

Lack of education and religious extremism, those are the reasons why it's extremely hard to create a proper lasting democracy in any of these countries. If you give people the right to vote whoever they wish eventually a lot of the uneducated are going to vote based on who their religious leaders tell them to, not who would actually do something good for their country. Just look at what happened in Egypt before military intervened, they were falling under new dictatorship, this time very religious one which makes it way worse than the one before.

To make democracy work majority of voters should be educated enough to actually form their own fact based opinion about things instead of just listening what some Islamists tell them.


If I have to choose living in a state with failed democracy, constantly having to fear for my life VS living in a secular dictatorship with safety as long as I don't speak against the government sure I would choose the latter one. It's not like you could openly criticize things related to religion in a fake democracy ruled by islamists and expect not to get killed anyway.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
ImperialEagle
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:17 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 1):
Is there anyone with a brain left at Fox News or do they just pander to people who would actually re-port their drivel as if it contained any kind of factual insight? I guess I'll have to go with "no" and "yes" on this final double Geopardee question

Typical far left reaction. You guys are just against the idea of "freedom of speech". Anybody that dissagrees with your train of thought must be brain dead----right?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
We still don't know crap about what happened in Benghazi last year.

Exactly. Swept under the rug because Hillary says says it doesn't matter any more.
A stinking coverup and they all have AMERICAN blood on their hands which is why they don't want the tawdry truth to get out.

And this year another huge bombing took place....where's your news coverage of THAT, CNN? ?????????


Oh yeah, I say thank the Heavens for news agencies who report the stories the "mainstream press" neglects to inform us of. What they DON'T tell us is worse than misinformation sometimes.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 10):
Especially when you use fox news as a source.

Another one who doesn't agree with the idea of "freedom of speech".

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11):
Too bad Gaddafi lost it all, these countries need strong secular dictators in power to stay out of chaos.

That is pretty much how I see it as well.

Quoting T prop (Reply 13):
So you think Obama himself should have been on sentry to guard our 24 now missing highly sensitive (because fox idiot news said so) M16

Obama is the PRESIDENT. He DAMNED WELL BETTER KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON! He is proving that both he and his cabinet are reaching new heights of incompetency.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
I'm not a fan of Fox News but I highly appreciate hearing ALL the news. Having 1200 Special Forces chased out of Libya is indeed interesting news.

YES! That's my point over the news source argument. We might not like what some agencies have to say, yet we had better listen to it all to make a reasonable decision about where we stand.
Thank Heavens for "Freedom of Speech"!

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
When people attack Fox News for the sake of attacking a political point, they identify themselves as having an agenda that is certainly no better than Fox News. They are usually more interested in suppressing information.
Are you hurt that they reported this?

Exactly. They want to supress news contrary to their beliefs. They don't want anyone to hear the other side. Ever!
So they try to illegitimize those with other opinions.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
why don't you read about this story from al-Jezeera? Why don't you see what BBC has to say?

Oh yeah. Now, those agencies are known for being "fair and balanced".  
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 22):
Is that a society you'd like to live in to avoid "chaos?

No. Who would want that? It's just that I get his point. because-------

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
As bad as Saddam was he at least kept those groups in order and by doing that probably saved quite a lot of

Why do so many Islamic countries have swords on their national flags? Because they KNOW THEIR ELEMENT. If they don't rule by the sword they know the people will run amok.
They also have very low rates of theft and murder.
Yeah, the dictators are still bad guys. The alternative appears to be anarchy.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
a lot of the uneducated are going to vote based on who their religious leaders tell them to, not who would actually do something good for their country.

(Wow, sounds like the Evangelicals here in the US!) I would agree with you on that.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
If I have to choose living in a state with failed democracy, constantly having to fear for my life VS living in a secular dictatorship with safety as long as I don't speak against the government sure I would choose the latter one. It's not like you could openly criticize things related to religion in a fake democracy ruled by islamists and expect not to get killed anyway.

I think that is as good an opinion as any.   
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
Mir
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:26 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Thread starter):
Just another insight into the wanton incompetence of the Obama Administration.

Seems like the military just took bad care of their weapons. Not sure how you can pin that on the Administration. That stuff is several levels down the food chain.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Typical far left reaction. You guys are just against the idea of "freedom of speech".

Are you quite sure you know what "freedom of speech" means? Hint: it's not that everyone's viewpoint has to have the same degree of validity.

-Mir
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ImperialEagle
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
Are you quite sure you know what "freedom of speech" means? Hint: it's not that everyone's viewpoint has to have the same degree of validity.

Especially if you feel the need to illegitimize the opinions of those who dissagree with yours.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
mham001
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:36 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
If you truly like hearing news from all sides, why don't you read about this story from al-Jezeera? Why don't you see what BBC has to say?

Since the demise of the newspaper, I read whatever pops up on Google News. Occasionally that is Fox News. Is that OK? If not for this thread, I would not have been to their site in months.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 18):
Are you the writer of the article mentioned? to turn around a clearly politically motivated and purely ignorant article into an attack on me, seems a bit off post unless you arte the author of such a piece of crap article.

I find that those who instantly attack Fox, the messenger, instead of the information, are knee-jerks. Period.

Getting back to the subject, the blunder that is Libya, our headlines today include Libya Faces Looming Crisis As Oil Output Slows To Trickle source; NPR.org
 
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casinterest
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Exactly. They want to supress news contrary to their beliefs. They don't want anyone to hear the other side. Ever!
So they try to illegitimize those with other opinions.

As opposed to the Fake news network?

I still haven't seen a reputable source reporting this in any other mainstream or leftstream network. Whatever your preference.

This article has no facts to back it up, and absolutely no hard hitting journalistic integrity backing it up .
This article is nothing but Political BS made up for Entertainment value.
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casinterest
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:42 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 27):
I find that those who instantly attack Fox, the messenger, instead of the information, are knee-jerks. Period

I attacked all of it, the information included, am I a knee jerk for pointing out that the Fake news network lacks integrity from omitting such things as VERIFIABLE FACTS from their reporting?
If I am a knee jerk for such things, too bad. I value facts over stupidity any day of the week.
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Acheron
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 20):
After 40 years, I'm going to give the Libyans a chance of something better. I'm guessing you've never lived in fear, or lived somewhere where anyone opposing the regime simply disappeared; think USSR, GDR etc at their very worst.
Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 22):
You keep saying this and I fail to see your logic. If a dictatorship was so great, than why is there unrest in Libya, Egypt, Syria, et al in the first place? There is no chaos because the dictator kills anyone who utters a negative word about them.

Is that a society you'd like to live in to avoid "chaos?" Pretty sure you are in the minority here...

Because now living under the rule of group nutjobs who won't only disappear you but actually behead, stone you or hang you for being of the wrong branch of Islam is a total improvement  

Living in lala land must be awesome.
 
Gatorman96
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:08 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
I never said living in a dictatorship is nice, however it still beats what's happening in Iraq, people dying all the time because of bomb attacks committed by different religious extremist groups. As bad as Saddam was he at least kept those groups in order and by doing that probably saved quite a lot of civilian lives.

You are making massive assumptions with absolutely no evidence to back them. If you were in Saddam, Assad, or Gaddafi's inner circle, life was grand. Otherwise, you better toe the line, never speak up, or you are dead. Sounds real safe to me...

I guess we should've left Saddam alone and we never should've waged war against Hitler. There certainly wasn't any chaos during their reign. :sarcasm:

I completely respect the participants of the Arab spring who truly want Democracy and with that comes violence and chaos as you describe, but these are necessary evils for change. Unfortunately, history, religion, and as you pointed out, lack of education is fully stacked against them and their efforts. I think their attempts will be futile without outside intervention (and I'm not talking about military means).

FYI, bombings and assassinations have been going on for decades in the Middle East, even in countries that are/were ruled by dictators. This is nothing new or exclusive to the Arab Spring...
Cha brro
 
Gatorman96
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:12 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 30):
Because now living under the rule of group nutjobs who won't only disappear you but actually behead, stone you or hang you for being of the wrong branch of Islam is a total improvement  

Living in lala land must be awesome.

What? Stonings, beheadings and hangings have been a means of punishment in the Middle East for thousands of years, particularly under the current and most recent dictators spoken about in this thread. Not sure what you are getting at
Cha brro
 
wingman
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Typical far left reaction. You guys are just against the idea of "freedom of speech". Anybody that dissagrees with your train of thought must be brain dead----right?

I'm not making my comments based on my political beliefs, I'm making my comments because I deplore stupidity. The article posted by the OP was written by a moron and quoted a source that has zero knowledge of terrorist weaponry or access to it. Furthermore, if the article was factual in any way I would question the intelligence of the Special Forces unit that lost its weapons cache. In fact, I would almost argue that they should be court martialed for negligence. Can you imagine a Seal team or Delta Force unit that would leave its weapons behind in one location to go sleep at night at another location and then have those weapons stolen...TWICE??!!

Those guys must be from Platoon Dumb Dumb.
 
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Aesma
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:20 pm

Quoting powerslide (Reply 4):
It is the cowards who run and live in Libya and Afghanistan who allow AlQ to takeover their country. They were given an opportunity to restart their country yet they ran away like little children. Only solution for both countries is to glass the place and start over.

Al Qaeda doesn't run any country, not even Somalia. That's the precise reason why there are bombings and other terrorist attacks, because they don't control anything.

As for Libya precisely, many countries (including mine) gave weapons (often air dropped) to those people you call cowards and they did the job on the ground. Most are not islamists.

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 31):
If you were in Saddam, Assad, or Gaddafi's inner circle, life was grand. Otherwise, you better toe the line, never speak up, or you are dead.

And if such circles want to rape or kill you for fun, tough luck !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Acheron
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:28 pm

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 32):
What? Stonings, beheadings and hangings have been a means of punishment in the Middle East for thousands of years, particularly under the current and most recent dictators spoken about in this thread.

Only if you went against the current rulers. Your islamist buddies will do that just for being born anything but sunni.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 34):
And if such circles want to rape or kill you for fun, tough luck !

As if the French have ever cared about that judging by the conditions of some of their former colonies.

A few of you are in such a hurry to buy into the "humanitarian" and "lets save them poor souls" bullshit that you completely miss the big picture and the practical implications of supporting either side.

Made worse by that silly notion that the western conception of democracy and human rights can work in such a society.
 
Gatorman96
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Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:08 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 35):
A few of you are in such a hurry to buy into the "humanitarian" and "lets save them poor souls" bullshit that you completely miss the big picture and the practical implications of supporting either side.

Made worse by that silly notion that the western conception of democracy and human rights can work in such a society.

There is no way that Democracy will come to this Middle East anytime soon, but do I think it may in occur in some ME countries 10, 20 years from now? I sure do...

There is no such thing as a "world away" anymore. Everything is hyper connected and Arabs living in these oppressed countries, whether illiterate, uneducated, or both, can watch a video of how people live in the US, Europe, et al and realize how God awful they have it. I just think it's ludicrous that some members on this board are advocating status quo and that the participants of the Arab Spring should welcome back a dictatorship or military rule so there won't be chaos. :sarcasm:

If a group of people, who have actually been oppressed by a dictatorship for their entire lives, are revolting for something better, who are you to tell them how to behave when you live in a free society???
Cha brro
 
AyostoLeon
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Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:23 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Why do so many Islamic countries have swords on their national flags?

The flags of majority Muslim countries are far more likely to display a star or crescent - the five pointed star representing the five pillars of Islam. Off the top of my head I can only think of Saudi Arabia and Oman featuring a sword. There are a number of US state flags that feature weapons of some kind. What does that tell us about those states?

A general comment. Many people believe that organisations that claim to base their policies on Islam gain support because the population of a country is uneducated or illiterate. In Libya this is not the case. I recognise that education and literacy are not identical but according to the CIA World Fact Book, overall literacy in Libya is 89.2%, male literacy is 95.6% and female literacy is 82.7% with the difference being attributable to older Libyans. Among younger Libyans the figures are much closer and similar to those in Europe. These figures are much higher than in neighbouring Egypt. So any support for parties that draw on Islam is generally not a result of ignorance or a lack of education but because these parties have attempted to address very real issues like corruption, jobs, cost of living.

The term "Islamist" is a word invented by ideologues that masks more than it explains. It assumes that there is a fixed notion of what a Muslim society looks like or should be and it assumes a particular type of state with repressive laws. Yet gather a group of Muslims together and ask them what they think about a particular issue and you will get various responses, just as you would if you asked a group of Christians or Jews. In Libya there are many who disagree with the perspectives of this or that party or group, but by and large they still consider themselves to be Muslim. Are people generally aware that some 70 parties stood during the elections?

[Edited 2013-09-12 20:25:15]
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T prop
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Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:25 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):

Obama is the PRESIDENT. He DAMNED WELL BETTER KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON! He is proving that both he and his cabinet are reaching new heights of incompetency.




...
 
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zkojq
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Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:01 am

What happened to 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
For comparison to Christians: The Muslim Brothers are the Sunni equivalent of ultraconservative Catholics, while the Wahabis, Salafists and AQ are the equivalent of the rabid bible thumping evangelists, with the bible in one hand and a rifle in the other.

That's a pretty good description.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 12):
That assumes that that Libya did it.
My money has always been on a different theory.

Shortly before PanAm103, the USS Vincennes shot down an Iran Air A300.

I'd rather not go down this route as it is a whole different kettle of fish and is for a different thread. However, whether Gadaffi is responsible for the bombing of a DC10 and a 747 or 'just' the DC10, I'm equally pleased to be rid of him.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 12):
I also note that when Gadaffi fell, there were expectations that the new leadership would "prove" that Gadaffi did it.
However, the issue just went quiet.

It probably didn't help that the building housing Libya's External Security Agency was hit by a NATO bomb. Some paperwork (which could have exonerated or implicated the Libyans) was destroyed, some was viewed by Human Rights Watch and some was supposedly taken by western intelligence agencies. Also, the Qataris got Moussa Koussa (smart move actually as I'm sure he is full of valuable intelligence) who is now working for them and seems to have his lips sealed. It would be interesting if more evidence came to light, but for the moment I think the Libyans have bigger fish to fry.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 20):
After 40 years, I'm going to give the Libyans a chance of something better.

Agreed. But for some it is clearly much easier to draw a metaphoric box around the MENA region and say 'democracy not possible' or whatever. It will take time but, particularly as Libyans are generally more westernised than many other countries affected by the Arab Spring, I'm sure it can be done (even if it may take five or ten years to do so).

No perfect democracy pops up overnight - particularly in an unstable region. And of course it takes time to clean up after a civil war which doesn't help.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Another one who doesn't agree with the idea of "freedom of speech".

You don't get it do you. You have every right to read (and share) whatever news sources you like, however if you post such rubbish pieces of journalism, the rest of us will give you about as much respect as if it was from The Onion. If no other sources are reporting on the story then that is probably a good sign of its [lack of] quality. It has been discussed here a multitude of times that to get an accurate perspective, one should use several news sources.
First to fly the 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE (2014-10-09, NZ103)
 
mham001
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Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:34 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 39):
You don't get it do you. You have every right to read (and share) whatever news sources you like, however if you post such rubbish pieces of journalism, the rest of us will give you about as much respect as if it was from The Onion. If no other sources are reporting on the story then that is probably a good sign of its [lack of] quality. It has been discussed here a multitude of times that to get an accurate perspective, one should use several news sources.

Like it or not, Fox News has produced exclusive stories in the past that the others apparently did not want to touch. I do not watch them and don't even like their style but iirc, they were at the forefront of the recent IRS scandal. That they have a different political philosophy than yours does not make their news/investigative reporting less newsworthy. That they are looking in corners others don't want to see also should not discredit them. Don't forget, Watergate was an "exclusive" as well.

Back to Libya. They are not letting go of this story, maybe people should pay attention and look beyond the Fox 'style'.. In today's headlines...

Theft of US weapons in Libya involved hundreds of guns, sources say.

According to State Department and military sources, dozens of highly armored vehicles called GMV's, provided by the United States, are now missing. The vehicles feature GPS navigation as well as various sets of weapon mounts and can be outfitted with smoke-grenade launchers. U.S. Special Forces undergo significant training to operate these vehicles. Fox News is told the vehicles provided to the Libyans are now gone.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...nvolved-hundreds-guns-sources-say/
 
wingman
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Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:19 pm

Holy shit, I hadn't realized the true extent of the debacle. If this is true that terrorists now have access to 4WD vehicles with internal combustion engines that would be a first for Islam. And on top of that to know that they included weapon mounts...weapon mounts!? It's the stuff of science fiction! And...then...the coup de grace...pistols. This is truly devastating and I don't see how anyone could argue the danger that the Sixth Fleet is now in. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine a line of 40-50 Humvees lining the coast of Libya and launching a coordinated smoke screen against the USS Gerald Ford. With their new GPS, which is unprecedented technology transfer for Africa, they could literally find the beach and make sure their vehicles were all pointed towards the water...AT THE SAME TIME!

I hope the Gerald Ford can navigate through smoke. One thing is for sure, I'm going to write Briez and give him the coordinates to Tripoli for his Navy's next nuclear missile test. These Grand Theft Auto gangs must be stopped before they take over America! Phuck Yeah!
 
seb146
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Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:47 pm

So, I don't get it:

United States gives weapons and vehicles to the Libyan rebels. Those items are in complete control of Libyans. Now, they are not.

Let me put this in perspective:

I give you my sweater that I paid for. You are getting it to keep forever and ever. You turn around and give/sell (your choice, because it is no longer mine) that sweater. I should not be offended but I should be shamed?

I wish I could find the exchange by one Democrat who found out Stevens went to Benghazi on his own with little security detail on his own and that stand down orders never came from anywhere and, according to military experts, it would have taken at least eight hours to get to Benghazi, not the 20 seconds some people claim.

This whole Libya story is just another right-wing dog whistle.

To quote a sign from the 1990s: It's the economy, stupid!
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
ImperialEagle
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Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:41 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 27):
I find that those who instantly attack Fox, the messenger, instead of the information, are knee-jerks. Period.

Yup. That's pretty much the case. They think if Anderson Cooper or Rachel Maddow say it then it must be "from the lips of G-D".  
Quoting casinterest (Reply 29):
I value facts

Well, whatever "facts" you happen to agree with.

Quoting Gatorman96 (Reply 31):
I completely respect the participants of the Arab spring who truly want Democracy and with that comes violence and chaos as you describe, but these are necessary evils for change.

Yes, freedom in the US did not come without violence for sure!

Quoting mham001 (Reply 40):
Like it or not, Fox News has produced exclusive stories in the past that the others apparently did not want to touch. I do not watch them and don't even like their style but iirc, they were at the forefront of the recent IRS scandal. That they have a different political philosophy than yours does not make their news/investigative reporting less newsworthy. That they are looking in corners others don't want to see also should not discredit them. Don't forget, Watergate was an "exclusive" as well.

  
Exactly right! If we didn't have Fox to inform us of some of this stuff we would never know it. The left-wing "mainstream media" likes to spoon-feed the sheeple with all kinds of nonsense. And what they don't say is as bad as what they do say sometimes. Why don't they just give us all the news there is and let us decide what we think about it!?
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
mham001
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Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 41):
Holy shit, I hadn't realized the true extent of the debacle.

While your hyperbole is commendable, your reasoning and desire to hide the news that Libya is in dissarray is not.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 42):
United States gives weapons and vehicles to the Libyan rebels. Those items are in complete control of Libyans. Now, they are not.

The US did not give these weapons away, they were stolen. And the administration has known and worried about our aid going to the wrong places for quite some time. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/wo...ist-hands.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Quoting seb146 (Reply 42):
I wish I could find the exchange by one Democrat who found out Stevens went to Benghazi on his own with little security detail on his own and that stand down orders never came from anywhere and, according to military experts, it would have taken at least eight hours to get to Benghazi, not the 20 seconds some people claim.

If nobody reports it, is it more credible than if only Fox News reports it?
 
Flighty
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Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 41):
Holy shit, I hadn't realized the true extent of the debacle. If this is true that terrorists now have access to 4WD vehicles with internal combustion engines that would be a first for Islam. And on top of that to know that they included weapon mounts...weapon mounts!? It's the stuff of science fiction! And...then...the coup de grace...pistols. This is truly devastating and I don't see how anyone could argue the danger that the Sixth Fleet is now in.

This is very funny.

Another thing that drives these people nuts. Obama is black!

Now for other issues, he is there for criticism, but Bengazi is a code word. I am convinced it is about Africa, and how Obama is just another terrorist, like Saddam. Plus he is black.

Criticizing a president is fully legal and ok, but Bengazi is becoming an "event" for the same neocon characters that started the race wars of the early 2000s (Iraq). Bengazi is dog-whistling to bring out today's KKK-wannabe losers. Just look, they are all present.
 
BN747
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Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:18 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
We still don't know crap about what happened in Benghazi last year.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 45):
Criticizing a president is fully legal and ok, but Bengazi is becoming an "event" for the same neocon characters that started the race wars of the early 2000s (Iraq). Bengazi is dog-whistling to bring out today's KKK-wannabe losers. Just look, they are all present.
13 Benghazis Happened Under President Bush and Fox News Said Nothing

http://www.policymic.com/articles/40...ent-bush-and-fox-news-said-nothing

Just a quick review of history shows you how right you are...'Benghazi' is indeed a dog whistle term for a certain type of mentality. Just look at the similarities of the cast who continues to toss it out with no real concern for the event itself.

BN747

[Edited 2013-09-25 15:20:46]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Dreadnought
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Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:41 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 28):
As opposed to the Fake news network?

I still haven't seen a reputable source reporting this in any other mainstream or leftstream network. Whatever your preference.

This article has no facts to back it up, and absolutely no hard hitting journalistic integrity backing it up .
This article is nothing but Political BS made up for Entertainment value.

A 2 minute search results in the same story (written separately) in Fox, Washington Post, Huff Post, The Daily Mail and the Telegraph in the UK, and the English language Libya Herald.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...says-whistle-blowers-attorney.html
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...-libya-militia-leader-libya-shield
http://www.libyaherald.com/2013/09/1...training-withdrawal/#axzz2fwhh21yy
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-Libyan-weapons-from-al-Qaeda.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/25/libya-weapons_n_1031468.html

Would you care to apologize now, or simply acknowledge that the US mainstream networks indeed seem to have an agenda to not avoid stuff that is embarrassing to the Obama administration?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 46):
13 Benghazis Happened Under President Bush and Fox News Said Nothing

Please come back with some indication that these attacks happened after specific warnings were received, where the ambassador asked for security assistance and was turned down by Washington, and then a cover-up in Washington.

THAT's the scandal here. Embassies and consulates will sometimes get attacked, unfortunately. They are a highly visible target. There were recent attacks (during Obama's administration) in Pakistan and Afghanistan on US consulates, but Fox did not make a big scandal - because there was no evidence of incompetence and ignored warnings. In Benghazi there is. Hence the scandal.

[Edited 2013-09-25 22:02:17 by wilco737]
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
BN747
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Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:34 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 48):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 46):
13 Benghazis Happened Under President Bush and Fox News Said Nothing

Please come back with some indication that these attacks happened after specific warnings were received, where the ambassador asked for security assistance and was turned down by Washington, and then a cover-up in Washington.

Nice try to mask what truly upsets you.

Embassies dating back to 'forever'... have always made requests for security assistance, enhancements, added security , measures - and told to wait. it's coming, delayed and denied. Any American familiar with foreign service knows this.

You have no standing..and no mask.

We all know what you 'Benghazites' are all about...it was elaborately expressed above.

But please, by all means keep putting up that front like you're deeply concerned... sadly for you, too many of us know better.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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DeltaMD90
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Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:09 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 42):
I give you my sweater that I paid for. You are getting it to keep forever and ever. You turn around and give/sell (your choice, because it is no longer mine) that sweater. I should not be offended but I should be shamed?

Would you be ashamed if you sold me a gun and I went and sold it to a felon? Why would you care, you sold it to me legitimately. We aren't talking about sweaters, we are talking about deadly weapons. Weapons that can be used against us or innocent people. We should be pretty careful safeguarding our weapons and not letting the ones we give away get into the wrong hands

I'm not saying "it's Obama's fault" or that the GOP is 100% accurate or even 20%, but you seem to, again, see it black and white and instantly take the side of the left/against the right. You can independently investigate yourself and be critical of the side you're on without endorsing all the claims of the other side
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