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deltadawg
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Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:20 pm

After John Boehner has continued to defy his constituents along with many other Republicans in regards to most peoples wishes for our Congressmen and Senators to do everything within their power to stop/defund Obamacare along with not going along with Obama on Syria it seems more and more relevant that there is a real need for a third political party in the U.S..

Could it be that the Tea Party could or should break off from the Republican Party to form a true third party? The Republican Party has parted ways with Reagan in its belief of the Constitution and fiscal responsibility and is trying to be the "me too" party comparing its deeds with the Democratic Party.

So, is it time for a third party or is the Republican Party salvageable?
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ImperialEagle
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:30 pm

Neither one of the established parties represents "We the People".

I have believed for years that we do need a true third-party choice.
The sad thing is the established parties have so much muscle and money they snuff-out any attempt to establish another party.
A good example is the "Tea Party" movement.

Just because there is a core group of American's with a different opinion of how things should be---the established parties AND the so-called "mainstream media" used smear campaigns to de-legitimize them. They were made to look like some kind of freaks. Crazy people who had the audacity to stand-up for "We the People".

I would and will support a party who truly represents the average American.
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romeobravo
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:37 pm

There is... http://www.lp.or/

Gary Johnson seemed a very sensible, level headed and intelligent chap. Unfortunately the voting system in many countries always results in a 2 party system because people are more concerned about the other party not getting in.
 
Rara
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:49 pm

As long as the U.S. keeps its majoritarian voting system, a Tea Party splitoff will mean that the Democratic Party will win every future election. Hardly the desired outcome for the far right.

In the unlikely event that a proportional voting system is introduced, there will probably a number of new parties. There may be room for a libertarian party, a social-democrat party, a far-right populist party (like the Tea Party), and possibly a green party alongside the GOP and the Democrats.
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Aesma
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:46 pm

You already have two right-wing parties, what you lack is a left-wing one !
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Revelation
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:54 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
After John Boehner has continued to defy his constituents along with many other Republicans in regards to most peoples wishes for our Congressmen and Senators to do everything within their power to stop/defund Obamacare along with not going along with Obama on Syria

                 

If it makes you feel any better, hardcore liberals are just as unhappy, but they don't have their own Fox/Rush outlets to vent. Gitmo's still open, the NSA's on the rampage, we're still using our brawn instead of our brains, etc.

However the Congress still requires super majorities to get anything through the Senate and 2/3rds to get anything past a veto, so the odds of anyone wanting to splinter their party just don't exist.
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srbmod
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:01 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 1):
I have believed for years that we do need a true third-party choice.
The sad thing is the established parties have so much muscle and money they snuff-out any attempt to establish another party.
A good example is the "Tea Party" movement.

Or them self-destruct like the Reform Party. The party started to split in 1996 because Perot decided to run for President again since he was the only Reform Party candidate that would be able to get Federal matching funds due to his 1992 independent run. A small faction split off in 1997 and is still around as a Tea Party-type group. The Reform Party failed to build on their first electoral success when Jesse Ventura was elected Governor of Minnesota and the party also garnered more votes than all of the other third parties combined in the mid-term elections. In the 2000 presidential campaign, the party moved well to the right (even further than the GOP) by nominating Pat Buchanan as their presidential candidate, which caused a major rift in the party and left it in tatters. The party supported Ralph Nader in 2004, but only had ballot access in 7 states at that time. In 2008 and in 2012, the Reform Party USA fielded candidates for President and Vice President, but were only on the ballot in Mississippi in 2008 and only on the ballot in Florida in 2012 (and had write-in status in less than a quarter of the states, but not enough to be elected).
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:28 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
Gary Johnson seemed a very sensible, level headed and intelligent chap.

The Libertarian party has the biggest chance of becoming a legitimate party. I've voted for them in the last three presidential elections because they more closely match my political ideals.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:00 am

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
After John Boehner has continued to defy his constituents along with many other Republicans in regards to most peoples wishes for our Congressmen and Senators to do everything within their power to stop/defund Obamacare along with not going along with Obama on Syria it seems more and more relevant that there is a real need for a third political party in the U.S..

So because the leader of the opposition is actually not fighting the President tooth-and-nail on something for once, that means you need a third party? I think you may want to reconsider your line of thinking on that one...
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deltadawg
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:27 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 8):
So because the leader of the opposition is actually not fighting the President tooth-and-nail on something for once, that means you need a third party? I think you may want to reconsider your line of thinking on that one...

Not quite. I will never reconsider my thinking on this issue. Boehner is nothing more than a left wing yes man that does not and will not listen to the average folks in his district or the American people in general. Him going along with Obama on a strike against Syria when 95% of Americans do not want a conflict with Syria is impeachable in my book. I know that my views on most items are far to the right of middle without any doubt but to not listen to the people is tantamount of treason and worth finding an alternative.

I believe in the Constitution not the government. The Constitution has been altered and trampled and the leaders in Washington continue to defy Americans views on most items, they give themselves and their cohorts exemptions from Obamacare or if they don't get it they get subsidized to pay for it. Washington has become a group of elitists on both sides of the fence, their is no difference in Asses or Pachyderms in that regard. I don't mind saying it but I have never once voted for a Democrat or a even a Libertarian for that matter. I was a Young Republican in college, I have walked door to door for candidates but the Republican establishment continues to bend its views to popular view and some even support Obama on Obamacare which is administered by the IRS! Who in their right mind wants their healthcare administered by the IRS? I have supported the Republican Party on every Federal, State and local election since 1984 when I first voted. I am at the point that if my views and more importantly the views of our founding fathers and Reagan are ignored, tainted or perverted then it is time to look elsewhere. I live in Athens, GA, home of the University of Georgia and most likely the most liberal city in Georgia. I have friends who are avid liberals that share the same frustration on their side of the fence as well and I respect their opinions and their views but I just believe from a Constitutional view we have strayed from our beginnings and original intentions so much so to the point of needing a fresh set of faces and ideas based upon the Constitution and ideas of the original writers.

I posted this thread not to bash the left or right for that matter but to gauge peoples feelings for the need to look elsewhere for representation which is something that is sorely lacking at the moment and has been for a while.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
You already have two right-wing parties, what you lack is a left-wing one !

Just the opposite my friend, just the opposite.

Last word for tonight - read Mark Levin's new book, The Liberty Amendments. Great Read.
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zckls04
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:44 am

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
So, is it time for a third party or is the Republican Party salvageable?

It would be great to see a third party, but of course it can't possibly be a far-right movement like the Tea Party because as has been mentioned, that will simply split the right-wing vote and ensure the Democrats win every election for the foreseeable future.

There is most definitely space in the middle of the two parties though, particularly for a fiscally conservative but socially liberal party. Note this is not the same as libertarian- the libertarian party tends to attract free-market ideologues who will never gain any significant traction with the electorate.
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seb146
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:18 am

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 9):
I believe in the Constitution not the government. The Constitution has been altered and trampled and the leaders in Washington continue to defy Americans views on most items

This is what it comes down to: Show me where in the Constitution it says political parties MUST posses insane amounts of money to even be considered for candidacy?

IMHO, the only reason Republicans and Democrats are continually elected is brand recognition. They have the money to back up their product.
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jetblueguy22
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:42 am

As a republican conservative I wish the tea party would just disappear. This is getting ridiculous. Obamacare isn't going anywhere. Vote libertarian if you don't like the republicans. The Tea Party is one of the biggest issues in the republican party right now IMO. Even if you go out and prove it is a grass roots movement, they have been demonized by the media to the point that no moderate will vote for a tea party candidate. I won't even vote for a tea party candidate. I wish it was as easy as the republicans saying "We don't want you." but they know that they would lose election after election without them. Which is silly because these tea partiers probably would never vote democrat in the first place...

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 9):
Boehner is nothing more than a left wing yes man that does not and will not listen to the average folks in his district or the American people in general. Him going along with Obama on a strike against Syria when 95% of Americans do not want a conflict with Syria is impeachable in my book.

Huh? Boehner won his district with 66% of the vote in 2010 and was reelected in 2012 after going unopposed by the democrats. His district must really hate him... When it comes to Syria, do you know something we don't know? Because frankly these guys aren't rushing to a decision. They are carefully weighing what they are going to do. I may not agree with going into Syria, but it doesn't mean there aren't justifiable reasons for going in.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 9):
I am at the point that if my views and more importantly the views of our founding fathers and Reagan are ignored, tainted or perverted then it is time to look elsewhere.

What does Reagan have to do with current political views? Don't get me wrong, I like Reagan. But to say his views have any bearing on the current political process is absurd. It's a different world now. His enemy was a well known megastate. We fight people in streets. Reagan's intel gathering were aircraft. We have satellites and electronic surveillance. You can't bring Reagan into this without making the right look like some dude stuck in the 80s. I think the constitution has absolutely been stomped on. But having an extreme edge of the party break off to make their own party which will fade away quickly isn't how you get things done. You are only hurting the already slight chance of something being done.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 10):
There is most definitely space in the middle of the two parties though, particularly for a fiscally conservative but socially liberal party.

I absolutely agree. I would vote for that party and never look back.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 12):
IMHO, the only reason Republicans and Democrats are continually elected is brand recognition. They have the money to back up their product.

Well they do have the money to back it up, but they also have time on their side. I grew up in a world dominated by R's and D's, my parents grew up in a world dominated by R's and D's, and my grandparents grew up in a world dominated by R's and D's. The tea party has been around for what, 4 years? In that time they have been tagged as a racist group(which I firmly disagree with, even if I don't like them), but they have also been tagged as group financed by the rich. We have enough of that with our current parties. We don't need a third party with extreme ideas financed by the same people who already finance the other parties.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:49 am

The presidency of Ronald Reagan has become so hopelessly misconstrued as the epitome of your brand of virtue, it's hard to even comprehend. Let me spell it out for you. Yes, Reagan was Republican and leaves good lingering sound bytes and messages to the conservative movement. However, were he to be around today, he would be perilously out of his element and quickly marginalized as a flagrant RINO based on his record, or be like Schwarzenegger, the aww, look, this Hollywood celebrity is calling himself a Republican, isn't that cute?

You talk about Reagan in vague and misty eyed adoration like "belief of the Constitution". Ok, Reagan's stances on gun rights and support of the AWB would leave him absolutely lambasted by the NRA and there are very few places he would be able to be nominated as a Republican. Similarly his work with missile treaties and other diplomacy with USSR etc would marginalize him as weak and unprincipled by the far right.

The list goes on. Not to even mention lackluster records on tax cuts, deficit increases, and federal government size. With all this, it's hard to even imagine how he could be so adored by the extreme right. The answer is simple why this is: it's all superficial. Listen to a speeches and sound-bytes, and let your imagination do the rest. You don't know better and you don't care to know better. If you really have interest and idolize Ronald Reagan, why not invest the time to gain more knowledge and understanding of his career. Learning is good. And it might help you avoid similar unfortunate scenarios with your hand in the proverbial Tea Party cookie jar. But you won't, because history and ideology is not simple enough for you to want to understand. No doubt you could, but complexities and shades of gray in such matters have no place in your world view. It's pathetic, and i pity the lack of any semblance of intellectual curiosity.

No doubt you've gone to the retort of last resort: you're older than me. Wow. Than how come I am the one sounding informed and mature, while you wallow in this thread demonstrating the rudimentary understanding of the political system and extreme naivety and idealism.

You can do better.
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seb146
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:17 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 13):
In that time they have been tagged as a racist group(which I firmly disagree with, even if I don't like them), but they have also been tagged as group financed by the rich

And so could Occupy.

We need money out of politics. Period. I don't care what party or where on the political spectrum a person stands, money has no business being in politics.
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Mir
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:56 am

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
So, is it time for a third party or is the Republican Party salvageable?

If the Tea Party separated from the GOP, then the GOP might actually be a viable, sensible choice.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 15):
The presidency of Ronald Reagan has become so hopelessly misconstrued as the epitome of your brand of virtue, it's hard to even comprehend.

I don't think people who like to invoke the name of Reagan really know what Reagan did. It's ironically similar to a religion, in which you find some way to invoke the deity no matter what you're trying to do. And it makes people look ridiculous.

-Mir
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Dreadnought
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:23 pm

This guy nailed it:

Five Steps to restoring Constitutional Government

1) No bill is to exceed 10 pages.
2) All bills are to have the constitutional article attached giving the bill its authority.
3) All content of the bill must pertain to the title of the bill.
4) All bills are to written in laymen's terms and posted on line for seven days before being introduced on the floor.
5) Any bill requiring expenditures must be accompanied with: total costs of bill, who the beneficiaries are, how the bill will be funded, who will pay bill and a sunset date.

http://richardlynch4congress.blogspo...s-to-restoring-constitutional.html
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WestJet747
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:51 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 9):
Not quite. I will never reconsider my thinking on this issue. Boehner is nothing more than a left wing yes man that does not and will not listen to the average folks in his district or the American people in general. Him going along with Obama on a strike against Syria when 95% of Americans do not want a conflict with Syria is impeachable in my book. I know that my views on most items are far to the right of middle without any doubt but to not listen to the people is tantamount of treason and worth finding an alternative.

Although I agree with you that the US desperately needs a third party, your opening post suggests you want it for all the wrong reasons. The purpose of a third party is to break the stalemate that is pretty much a certainty in a two-party parliamentary system. Seeing Boehner agree with Obama on something is particularly refreshing in my opinion (though I disagree with both of them on this specific issue...). The motivation for you starting this thread is simply rooted in your anti-left mindset it would appear. Anyone that agrees with a Democrat is mud on your boots. Which makes it all the more hilarious that you said:

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 9):
I posted this thread not to bash the left

.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 9):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 4):
You already have two right-wing parties, what you lack is a left-wing one !

Just the opposite my friend, just the opposite.

You need to travel a bit, or maybe just do some high-level reading, because the US is quite significantly to the right when viewed on a global scale.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 10):
There is most definitely space in the middle of the two parties though, particularly for a fiscally conservative but socially liberal party.

Or how about a party that simply doesn't stick its nose in so many social issues?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
We need money out of politics. Period. I don't care what party or where on the political spectrum a person stands, money has no business being in politics.

So long as government continues to try and put a collar on the free market, there will be organizations and individuals with a business interest in who the successful candidate is.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
If the Tea Party separated from the GOP, then the GOP might actually be a viable, sensible choice.

But they would still be as fiscally irresponsible as always. The Tea Party really isn't functionally doing any harm to the GOP, they only provide terrible optics, but functionally the GOP do enough to screw themselves over.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
1) No bill is to exceed 10 pages.

That's far too vague. I can easily create a bill in 10 pages that has smaller font and no indentation, essentially a page of pure text. It would be more sensible to limit the number of sections/clauses contained within the document (within reason).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
3) All content of the bill must pertain to the title of the bill.

Seems like a no-brainer   

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
5) Any bill requiring expenditures must be accompanied with: total costs of bill, who the beneficiaries are, how the bill will be funded, who will pay bill and a sunset date.

The language of this point suggests that all bills have a predetermined shelf life, or am I reading incorrectly?
Flying refined.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:56 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
in regards to most peoples wishes

I hate to disappoint you - but "most people" do not wish to see Obamacare stopped / defunded / repealed.

And certainly without the Republican Party offering an alternative program to go into effect to provide quality health insurance available to all Americans.

Quoting deltadawg (Thread starter):
is the Republican Party salvageable?

Yes - if they throw out all the Tea Party extremists who want to destroy the United States.
 
Mir
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:22 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):

1) No bill is to exceed 10 pages.

So he's obviously never written legislation before, and has no idea how it works. Bills should be as long as they need to be - no more, no less.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
2) All bills are to have the constitutional article attached giving the bill its authority.

Do we really need to have Article 1, Section 8 written on every bill? Not that it would mean anything anyway.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
3) All content of the bill must pertain to the title of the bill.

Reasonable enough, though I wonder how closely this would actually be followed in practice.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
4) All bills are to written in laymen's terms and posted on line for seven days before being introduced on the floor.

Being posted on-line is fine, but requiring everything to be in layman's terms (which is a good idea) is going to run up against the 10 page limit. Might just be a better idea for people to learn to read and understand English.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
5) Any bill requiring expenditures must be accompanied with: total costs of bill, who the beneficiaries are, how the bill will be funded, who will pay bill and a sunset date.

I don't really have a problem with that.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
But they would still be as fiscally irresponsible as always.

I'm not so sure about that. What I do know is that they could actually govern. The Tea Party cannot - they've shown themselves to be incapable of doing it.

-Mir
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vikkyvik
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:30 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 1):
I would and will support a party who truly represents the average American.

This is a nice sound byte, but the "average American" is not very average, so to speak. Meaning, one "average American" can be vastly different from another "average American". If you actually averaged all the different views of the "average American", you'd probably end up with something that not many people would particularly want or agree with.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 11):
IMHO, the only reason Republicans and Democrats are continually elected is brand recognition. They have the money to back up their product.

Very true.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
This guy nailed it:

Five Steps to restoring Constitutional Government

If he was going for "Five Very Generic and Unspecific Steps that Create Hundreds of Loopholes and Arguments", then I'd say you're right.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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zckls04
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
3) All content of the bill must pertain to the title of the bill.

I would love for this to be the case, but those ridiculous clauses are there for a reason- to get things passed by essentially bribing their opponents. Given how deadlocked Congress is right now I fear this would lead to greater inaction.
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deltadawg
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:55 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 19):
I hate to disappoint you - but "most people" do not wish to see Obamacare stopped / defunded / repealed.

And certainly without the Republican Party offering an alternative program to go into effect to provide quality health insurance available to all Americans.

Must be why poll after poll after poll shows the majority of Americans don't like it, don't want it and don't support it?

As far as an alternative, there was already an alternative. It is called private health insurance, pick up the phone book and look for Blue Cross/Blue Shield, Cigna, etc. You also might want to check with your employer. If you are unemployed I am sorry but then that is more reason to blame Obamacare as it is the single biggest factor slowing hiring in the US today. Some may be unemployed but they have health insurance. They cant buy food, pay their mortgage or car payment but they have a free phone and health insurance.

I am sorry, I didn't go to college, work my rear end off with my compnay, put my name on the dotted line to build my poultry houses, put my kids through college, save for my retirement just so I can help pay for someone else's health insurance. That is exactly what is happening, just like the 51% of Americans that actually pay taxes those same folks are footing the bill for the rest. Last time I looked there was no article or amendment for that matter in the Constitution that said health insurance was a right. There is a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If having health insurance is a pursuit of yours then by all means go after it you have that right.


I know many will say I am an uncaring right wing nutjob but they are entitled to their opinion. I know my priority is my children, my wife and the people that work for me and my wife. I want to see everyone do well and prosper but under the current environment of deafening regulations, taxation and oversight it has become all too hard for many on the ends to do so.
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
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casinterest
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:15 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 23):

Nah, I just hope you get your way so this country can move beyond the self centered utopia that the Tea Party worships.

The 15-20% that the Tea Party would hopefully enchant would be more than enough to destroy the current GOP.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 23):

Must be why poll after poll after poll shows the majority of Americans don't like it, don't want it and don't support it?

Oh really?

http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch...least-popular-option-for-obamacare

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-...an-to-defund-obamacare-poll-finds/
 
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zckls04
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:31 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 23):
Must be why poll after poll after poll shows the majority of Americans don't like it, don't want it and don't support it?

But rfields is correct in that most people do not want to defund it:

http://americablog.com/2013/08/poll-...obamacare-hate-defunding-even.html

The problem is that the American people mostly have no idea what Obamacare is. This was a while ago, but I see no evidence the public have become more informed:

http://americablog.com/2010/02/newsw...whats-in-it-then-they-like-it.html

One thing most people I know on both sides of the fence say is that repealing Obamacare should not be done unless the GOP come up with a viable alternative, which should not just be "let's go back to how things were before".
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jetblueguy22
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:35 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
And so could Occupy.

I don't think Occupy really has the tag of being financed by the rich. I think it is believed to be more sloppy than it is financially sound.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
We need money out of politics. Period. I don't care what party or where on the political spectrum a person stands, money has no business being in politics.

I agree but how do we accomplish this? You think any Senator or Representative in their right mind would try to end campaign donations? It's political suicide. They all come in talking about it, but then they realize it just is not feasible.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
If the Tea Party separated from the GOP, then the GOP might actually be a viable, sensible choice.

I agree, but the problem then becomes the group that leaves the party to be with the tea party. Yes they may pick up votes from moderates, but will it be enough to replace those that left and then some? The republicans are in a bit of a pickle IMO.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
Or how about a party that simply doesn't stick its nose in so many social issues?

Not going to happen in this lifetime. Too libertarian for most of the country.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 23):
Must be why poll after poll after poll shows the majority of Americans don't like it, don't want it and don't support it?

It is because nobody has a clue what is in the bill. I had a history professor go on a political rant the other day saying how he loves Obamacare and the fact that socialized healthcare is coming to America. But then I hear that it isn't socialized medicine but rather a set of reform laws. My biggest problem with the bill is the lack of education. We've talked about it for how long now and with the exception of healthcare professionals and business leaders, nobody knows what to expect. I might think it's the best bill since the interstate highway act if I knew what was coming. But I don't.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 23):
There is a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If having health insurance is a pursuit of yours then by all means go after it you have that right.

The whole right to life, liberty, and happiness is such a broad statement that it is tough to say that something doesn't constitute it. In the case of Obamacare it is supposed to provide people with medical care which equates to a longer life, it gives people the liberty to pick what doctor they want without having to worry about cost, and the pursuit of happiness means that they can live their lives happily while being healthy. I don't think the government should be providing healthcare, but my concerns are more with it's ability to process things in a timely and efficient fashion.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 24):
so this country can move beyond the self centered utopia that the Tea Party worships.

The self centered Utopia wasn't created by the Tea Party. It has been around long before the tea party, and will remain after they fade into oblivion.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 28):
The problem is that the American people mostly have no idea what Obamacare is. This was a while ago, but I see no evidence the public have become more informed:

   Absolutely agree. People are afraid of the unknown. I know the White House has been trying to come up with education programs. But boy they have to push them a little harder.
Pat
All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
 
Mir
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:44 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 22):
As far as an alternative, there was already an alternative. It is called private health insurance, pick up the phone book and look for Blue Cross/Blue Shield, Cigna, etc.

And it wasn't working. The whole reason we had health care reform was because the system was incredibly broken. Going back to that is not a viable option, but that's the only option the Tea Party has presented the country with.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 22):
If you are unemployed I am sorry but then that is more reason to blame Obamacare as it is the single biggest factor slowing hiring in the US today.

No, the biggest factor slowing hiring is the instability in government. Of which the argument over Obamacare is only a component.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 22):
Last time I looked there was no article or amendment for that matter in the Constitution that said health insurance was a right.

It doesn't have to be a right. It's a good idea, and that's enough.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
KRIC777
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:24 am

While I agree with the Tea Party on fiscal issues, I have no use for their social agenda.

Where is there room for someone like myself who believes in a "conservative" fiscal policy, with the lowest taxes possible, and limited social welfare entitlement programs, (which, I believe, have caused far more problems than they have solved) but "liberal" social policy, which stipulates limited government interference in people's private lives?

As far as I'm concerned, marijuana, abortion, and prostitution should be legal, as long as only consenting adults are involved. At the same time, I wish the government would keep its hands off my paycheck (as much as possible) and my guns (if I choose to own them.) I have zero respect for the quasi-Socialists in this country who want the government to take care of them cradle to grave, but I also don't want the Religious Right dictating social policy in the country. I have my own religious beliefs that I choose to keep to myself and not inject into political discourse. I wish more people felt the same.

I think there are quite a few folks like myself who are generally with the Tea Party on fiscal/economic issues, but cannot get behind their narrow-minded, religion-based social agenda. I guess we're called Libertarians.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:43 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 26):
Absolutely agree. People are afraid of the unknown. I know the White House has been trying to come up with education programs. But boy they have to push them a little harder.

Thats why the President will have Bill Clinton out there explaining what exactly Obamacare is going to do. Personally, i am waiting for October as well, so i can get my insurance through an exchange and save money.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:06 am

In the past, national 'third parties' have faced several obstacles to becoming viable ones in the USA.
- They become too radical, narrow, absolute and unworkable in their views, turning off many voters.
- Key ideas are absorbed by one of the 2 major parties.
- Cannot attract leaders that can get them votes over 1-2 elections.
- Campaign funding is very limited.

What I would like to see is a centrist party, with balance, moderation, low corruption, limit invasions of personal privacy; promote reasonably affordable health care, housing and food costs; fair progressive taxation with few loopholes and deals with powerful interest groups, sensible regulation of business and individuals so we are all sensibly protected but not so over the top where a rare fly prevent reasoned development.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:46 am

Without changes in your political system it won't happen. There needs to be a simpler system to get on ballots, in a presidential system, only the presidential election will get a party started. In France we have kind of the opposite problem, it's too easy to be a candidate, so we have 10 or more. At least people get to hear various agendas, not just 2.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
seb146
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:27 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
So long as government continues to try and put a collar on the free market

Like telling businesses they can not pollute water? Or put nails in teddy bears? Things like that? Or not selling mortgages to people banks know they can not afford? Like that?

Don't forget: The Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution and the government to be "of, for, and by the people". Which means when our government fails us, we fail us. It actually would be feasible to get money out of politics. If every single one of us votes for the one candidate in our district who will listen to us. That would be ANYBODY who does not have a (D) or (R) behind their name! We have a chance in November 2014 to bring in all new people into The House. If every single person who voted cast a ballot for anyone who does not have a (D) or (R) behind their name, that would show money that we the people truly are in control. I would love to see every person with a (D) or (R) behind their name get zero votes in the mid-terms. Then, something might get done in this country!
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:19 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 1):
Just because there is a core group of American's with a different opinion of how things should be---the established parties AND the so-called "mainstream media" used smear campaigns to de-legitimize them. They were made to look like some kind of freaks. Crazy people who had the audacity to stand-up for "We the People".

That's because the behavior of the Tea Party became so absurd (beyond "extreme" in many ways) that they didn't need to be portrayed as "freaks" by anyone. They did it for themselves.

It's also true (and many of the original founders of the movement have admitted it) that it quickly changed from a grass-roots movement to a highly organized and funded "club" with such organizations as the Americans for Prosperity funding it.

And with Tea Party leaders talking about how such concepts as "negotiation" and "bipartisanship" are passe, how the sequester isn't such a bad thing, how defaulting on our debts isn't a bad thing, etc., it's becoming a real problem for the GOP.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 22):
I am sorry, I didn't go to college, work my rear end off with my compnay, put my name on the dotted line to build my poultry houses, put my kids through college, save for my retirement just so I can help pay for someone else's health insurance.

Yes you did. If you have health insurance, then you are paying for someone else's health insurance. That's what "insurance" is. If you get cancer and I don't, then my premiums pay for your chemo and vice-versa.

And the best part is that under the new rules, you can actually CHOOSE your insurance plan. You were never able to do that before unless you were in absolutely perfect health. Insurance companies would even consider a history of a broken bone as a "pre-existing" condition, even if it was years ago and use that to jack up your rates. If you didn't have a group plan through your employer, you basically couldn't get insurance. That's no longer the case. If you are unhappy with Aetna's customer service, then switch to BC/BS or HealthNet or UnitedHealthCare. The insurance plans actually have to compete to make their members happy now, which they've never had to do before.

I don't understand why anyone would complain about that. And, as a physician, it's helping me. Starting with the new year, there are going to be a lot of new people coming to my clinic for medical care.

Sure, there are problems with it, but none of them are insurmountable. And there are problems that the existing legislation doesn't fix, and those COULD be fixed if the House Majority were actually willing to govern, rather than repealing the bill 41 times.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Superfly
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:28 am

Third parties are only spoilers as long as we have a winner-take-all system.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 5):
hardcore liberals are just as unhappy, but they don't have their own Fox/Rush outlets to vent.

True. They have MSNBC, CNN, CBS, ABC, New York Times, Washington Post, Boston Globe, LA Times just to name a few.
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B777LRF
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:59 am

I have always found it incomprehensible how a nation of almost 300 million people and an unparalleled diversity of culture, race and religion, can be represented nationally by just 2 parties. This is especially confounding when small, homogenous, nations like those in Scandinavia have up to 8 parties represented in their parliaments, and up to 4 in a coalition government. But what really boggles the mind is how close to each other the Democrats and Republicans are politically. Anywhere else, where multiple parties are represented, the Dems and Reps would be one and placed on the far, far right of the political spectrum. The Tea Party is just one more iteration of far rightness; though they are considerably more wacky than your average right winger, they are still politically of the same ilk.

So the answer to the OPs question is a resounding 'NO'. You don't need another party, you need 5 or 6 of them and a political reform that will allow that to happen.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
Mir
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:54 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
If you have health insurance, then you are paying for someone else's health insurance. That's what "insurance" is. If you get cancer and I don't, then my premiums pay for your chemo and vice-versa.

Not only that, but you're also paying for the people who don't have insurance but end up in the emergency room anyway because that's their only option. The hospital has to cover those costs somehow, they do so by charging everyone else a bit more, and that gets passed on to the insurance companies and is ultimately reflected in your premiums.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Superfly
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:24 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 35):
I have always found it incomprehensible how a nation of almost 300 million people and an unparalleled diversity of culture, race and religion, can be represented nationally by just 2 parties.

That is incorrect. There are dozens of parties in the US but due to the winner-take-all system, people choose to vote for 1 of the 2 major parties.

In the 2000 Presidential election, Green party candidate Ralph Nader splintered liberal voters away from Al Gore allowing George W. Bush to get in the White House.
So to all of these pro-third party advocates, you should love George W. Bush because his presidency was the result of a strong 3rd party challenger.
Ya see, 3rd parties can make a difference.   
Bring back the Concorde
 
romeobravo
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:24 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
If you have health insurance, then you are paying for someone else's health insurance.

No you're not. You're paying for a commodity, that commodity is health coverage, and is only applicable to you.
 
Akiestar
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:44 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
That is incorrect. There are dozens of parties in the US but due to the winner-take-all system, people choose to vote for 1 of the 2 major parties.

Which is not necessarily caused by winner-take-all/FPTP (first-past-the-post). The UK has three parties in the House of Commons and it uses FPTP. Same with Canada and its four parties. The D-R duopoly in the United States is a result of weak third parties (among other factors), rather than just solely the system's design.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:17 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
3) All content of the bill must pertain to the title of the bill.

Since most of the bills that actually run the government today are Continuing Resolutions - that requirement is fulfilled for the really important bills. (Now - lumping what used to be 100 different appropriations, fundraising and regulatory laws into one Continuing Resolution - that should be stopped. But cannot with today's political atmosphere.)

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
5) Any bill requiring expenditures must be accompanied with: total costs of bill, who the beneficiaries are, how the bill will be funded, who will pay bill and a sunset date.

That has been done for most of the past 20 years - but both Republicans and Democrats love to make exceptions. Such as the entire 2003 Iraq/ Afghanistan War was 'off budget' - so none of those requirements were met.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
4) All bills are to written in laymen's terms and posted on line for seven days before being introduced on the floor.

Two separate things. Most bills are only introduced on the floor for a few minutes. The real work is done in the Committee's, and they don't report out the bill until the deadline. You are talking about removing a fundamental power of Congressmen - that ain't gonna happen. Neither party would allow that to happen.

Plain language - unfortunately that won't work for laws. The wording has to be very precise to ensure the exact meaning is in the law.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 22):
Must be why poll after poll after poll shows the majority of Americans don't like it, don't want it and don't support it?

What a joke. Yes, biased inaccurate polls by people out to prove their theory. The real polls show the clear majority is in favor of comprehensive heath care.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 22):
I am sorry, I didn't go to college,

So what. I'm part of the majority of Americans who worked their butt off to get ahead. Yes, the MAJORITY. Maybe my first 20 years after high school was in the US military, and I got a college degree by working 12-14 hours a day and going to night school. And raised two children by myself - except when deployed. And built my business after I retired.

So what. Doing what most Americans do doesn't make you SPECIAL. It makes you a citizen. It doesn't give you a right to say others are 'unequal' to you.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 22):
just like the 51% of Americans that actually pay taxes

You maybe should have gone to college and learned how to do research.

The statement was "49% of Americans FILING TAX RETURNS paid no taxes"

It was not 49% of all Americans, it was not 49% of adults.

And the other numbers.

Of that 49% - over half WORK FOR A LIVING - but make so little total income that they owe no income taxes after deductions. Every one of these people paid Social Security and Medicare taxes.

(That works for a living group includes over 500 people with incomes over 1 million dollars whose deductions allowed them to legally pay no income taxes.)

Of that 49% - almost one third are retirees living off Social Security. They make too little total income to have to pay taxes on their Social Security - so they paid not income tax.

Of that 49% - about 5% of them were retirees with very nice incomes - but their investments were in tax free bonds - and thus not subject to federal income taxes.

Welfare queens cannot file income taxes and get money. They have to have Earned Income from a job to get the Earned Income Credit.

Now I will agree that there are quite a few people who work at minimum wage jobs for about 800 hours a year - to qualify for the maximum EIC.

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 22):
Last time I looked there was no article or amendment for that matter in the Constitution that said health insurance was a right

Nobody is saying it is a right.

Right now the poorest Americans, those which don't do any work for whatever reason - usually have health care coverage.

The group without health care coverage is largely the working poor. Those working for minimum wage or similar wages, and whose hours are limited to under 30 hours per week. Of they work for very small employers with under 25 employees (unlike the myth - those companies are an economic drain on the economy - not job generators. A small business which is an economic generator must have health insurance and some type of retirement plan for their employees. Those are the only 'small businesses' which make our economy grow. Their average size is 25 to 50 employees and their sales run at least 2 to 5 million per year.)

Obamacare is about using the power of the American people to bring our healthcare standards out from near third world conditions to affordable health care fo ALL Americans.

A lot of us don't believe that the United States is too poor, too backward to help our people be healthy and productive. Unfortunately those who do believe that control the US House of Representatives and Fake News.

To remove the disincentive to work for the very poor because the first thing that happens when someone gets a job is they lose their healthcare.
 
Superfly
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 39):
The D-R duopoly in the United States is a result of weak third parties (among other factors)

One of those other factors being a winner-take-all system.
People have the choice to vote for who ever they want or any party. I don't like the two parties either and I have the choice to vote for candidates of any party I want. I often see at least 5 or 6 choices in every election.
Bring back the Concorde
 
CXfirst
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:08 pm

Quoting deltadawg (Reply 22):
Last time I looked there was no article or amendment for that matter in the Constitution that said health insurance was a right. There is a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

If you don't have private health insurance (you simply cannot afford it), and get diagnosed with a life-threatening, but treatable (expensive) disease. Would not getting that care violate your right to life?

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 35):
But what really boggles the mind is how close to each other the Democrats and Republicans are politically.

In many places, there would be a good chance that the parties mostly resembling the Democrats and the Republicans would even form a coalition government!

-CXfirst
 
seb146
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:33 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
They have MSNBC, CNN, CBS, ABC, New York Times, Washington Post, Boston Globe, LA Times just to name a few.

True, but CNN, CBS, ABC are more middle-of-the-road and the newspapers you cite are being bought by Koch Industries. That leaves MSNBC. Compared to thousands of talk radio stations across the country and FOX, both of whom tell all their listeners/viewers that MSNBC is all lies. Even though their own lies can be found out in about 5 seconds.

I guess the bottom line of what you are saying is: there should be third parties, as long as they are far right-wing based. That sounds truly American.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
Superfly
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:57 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 43):
I guess the bottom line of what you are saying is: there should be third parties, as long as they are far right-wing based.

Where are you getting that? Especially since I gave an example of a left-wing 3rd party that made a difference.
Bring back the Concorde
 
seb146
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:31 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
Where are you getting that? Especially since I gave an example of a left-wing 3rd party that made a difference.

So you think there can be center or center left or extreme left, they just can't have any media attention, otherwise they are radicals who control all media.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:26 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 40):
Plain language - unfortunately that won't work for laws. The wording has to be very precise to ensure the exact meaning is in the law.

Yes. For instance, the Patriot Act used the word 'collect' without defining it to the Nth degree. The NSA decided that the restrictions implied by the word 'collect' just would not do, so they re-interpreted the word to be along the lines of 'analyze' so now they freely 'collect' all kinds of things the Congress did not intend. Add to that the use of secrecy laws that prevented Congressmen from publicly complaining and the result is something akin to a police state, IMHO.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
seb146
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:11 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
They have MSNBC, CNN, CBS, ABC, New York Times, Washington Post, Boston Globe, LA Times just to name a few.

"Just to name a few" because that's all there is. Even if one counts CNN, CBS, and ABC as "liberal".

What I don't understand is the ongoing thought of "liberal media in control" and "free speech (right-wing media) is under attack." Let's look at the facts just here in California alone. There are two "liberal" (read: they post facts contrary to FOX/Rush/tea people views) newspapers and 1 1/2 "liberal" radio stations. In "liberal" California. Stack that up against the hundreds of newspapers and radio stations across the state who support far right wing candidates and causes. Yet, the far right wing media are the ones under attack?
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:30 pm

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 39):
Which is not necessarily caused by winner-take-all/FPTP (first-past-the-post). The UK has three parties in the House of Commons and it uses FPTP. Same with Canada and its four parties. The D-R duopoly in the United States is a result of weak third parties (among other factors), rather than just solely the system's design.

But the UK and Canada have parliamentary political systems. The US has a presidential system. The presidential election is the most important one, and it's really complicated to be on the ballot in all states and have decent media coverage to make a difference. Then since the house and senate are renewed on the same day and with FPTP, a presidential candidate that would make significant gains (say 5% or even 10% of the votes, that is millions of votes) would not get a single person elected in congress ! The only difference made would be to weaken the candidates closest to him, like happened with Nader/Al Gore. And what the Tea Party would do to the GOP. In my opinion that's why the GOP is already making alliances with the Tea Party candidates and backs some of them, to "keep them in the family".

Here in France the main right-wing party (UMP) has had this problem for 30 years with the far right party Front National, except that they can't make alliances since the FN is overtly racist, holocaust deniers and other niceties (although it's trying to improve its image). For example the UMP is claiming that Sarkozy lost the 2012 election because the FN voters didn't vote for him, but staid home.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 32):
If every single person who voted cast a ballot for anyone who does not have a (D) or (R) behind their name, that would show money that we the people truly are in control. I would love to see every person with a (D) or (R) behind their name get zero votes in the mid-terms. Then, something might get done in this country!

Look at what is going on in Italy, with the new "5 stars" party, which had great success without money and on the platform of being against politicians. Result, the country is even less governable than before the election !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
GDB
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RE: Is It Time For A Third Political Party - Tea Party

Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:22 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
n the 2000 Presidential election, Green party candidate Ralph Nader splintered liberal voters away from Al Gore allowing George W. Bush to get in the White House.
So to all of these pro-third party advocates, you should love George W. Bush because his presidency was the result of a strong 3rd party challenger.
Ya see, 3rd parties can make a difference.   

....And Ross Perot likely helped Clinton win in 1992.
Wasn't there also a pro Segregationist party in '68 as well, with Wallace?

Our own Liberal Democrats might be a 3rd party but they are way smaller than Labour or Conservative.

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