TheCommodore
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Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:15 am

He makes some very pertinent points.

I especially like this quote....

"It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal. "

What are your thoughts ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/op...-on-syria.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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seb146
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:23 am

Someone expressed an opinion and people are freaking out about it. So what? I don't get what the big deal is. He is saying what he sees from his point of view. People can be free to agree or disagree with him to any degree. I don't get the whole "I'm offended he says anything" stance. He is human. He has an opinion.
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RussianJet
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:29 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
I don't get the whole "I'm offended he says anything" stance. He is human. He has an opinion.

  

Quite. And, he also happens to lead a very powerful country, whether we like that or not, or whether we choose to admit that or not.
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Rara
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:55 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
He is human. He has an opinion.

He also intervenes in a debate which he wouldn't allow to even take place in his own country. That may be why people are upset about it. It's fair enough to speak about peace and tolerance, but if you as a President are responsible for a lot of violence (Chechnya, Syria), and at the same time repress any domestic debate, it may not exactly be appropriate to preach about it in the free media of other countries.
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:40 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
He also intervenes in a debate which he wouldn't allow to even take place in his own country. That may be why people are upset about it. It's fair enough to speak about peace and tolerance, but if you as a President are responsible for a lot of violence (Chechnya, Syria), and at the same time repress any domestic debate, it may not exactly be appropriate to preach about it in the free media of other countries.

Well said. Mr. Putin goes by the rule of do as I say, not as I do. He is the epitome of Hypocrisy.

[Edited 2013-09-12 19:43:00]
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TheCommodore
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:51 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
He also intervenes in a debate which he wouldn't allow to even take place in his own country.

No leader is perfect or impervious to rebuke.

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
it may not exactly be appropriate to preach about it in the free media of other countries.

Maybe, but its a good way to get the message across. And If that message can potentially stop further conflict, then I'm all for it

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
Putin goes by the rule of do as I say, not as I do. He is the epitome of Hypocrisy.

No one is perfect. And Im sure as hell, there are many thing the US has done, that could be construed hypocrisy.
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:00 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 5):
No one is perfect. And Im sure as hell, there are many thing the US has done, that could be construed hypocrisy.

As you say, not everyone is perfect. A former head of the KGB certainly is not one to preach to the US about anything. They perfected hypocrisy to the highest degree.
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RussianJet
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:07 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
but if you as a President are responsible for a lot of violence (Chechnya, Syria)

To be fair, while it might not have been pretty, Chechnya is more peaceful now than it has been probably at any time since the breakdown of the USSR. There are still problems of course, and much of the violence has been displaced to other neighbouring regions. However, the point still stands. I know we associate Chechnya with war and violence, but most of that wasn't sown during Putin's reign, and the fact is that the republic has developed considerably in recent years.
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seb146
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:14 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
He also intervenes in a debate which he wouldn't allow to even take place in his own country

And there is debate based on facts in the United States? Or is the debate in the United States based on "facts" based on a slant and agenda?

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
That may be why people are upset about it.

People talk about nation building and spreading democracy around the world like we have in the United States but voting rights are being taken away and the sick just die and the hungry just die in the United States. How does that make the United States any better?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
Mr. Putin goes by the rule of do as I say, not as I do. He is the epitome of Hypocrisy.

Kinda like the United States? yep.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:15 am

I have to say that I was speechless when I finished reading it. He makes some very good points and that last quote was really a good closing argument.

I realize that Putin is far from the perfect leader, but I think it's not a bad idea for the US to get a wake up call in general, even if from a leader that oppresses domestic opposition.

Let's not forget that at the end of the day, the US is also rather two-faced in many issues. We talk about being created equal but we all know that we don't all get equal treatment. We talk about freedoms like free speech or religion, and yet we see authorities infringing on them. We talk about the oppression of certain people yet turn a blind eye to Israel's treatment of Palestinians or the Saudi's persecution of those who do not adhere to Islamic principles.

So having a two-faced leader tell a two-faced nation how to behave, while ironic, is simply an eye opener.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
They perfected hypocrisy to the highest degree.

Well, I disagree.

I reckon that award falls a little closer to home (your home) than you might think.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
How does that make the United States any better?

Your right, It doesn't one bit, in fact it makes the world a whole lot more dangerous.
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:32 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 9):
So having a two-faced leader tell a two-faced nation how to behave, while ironic, is simply an eye opener.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 10):
I reckon that award falls a little closer to home (your home) than you might think.

Please provide a list of nations that The USSR, or Russia has freed from tyranny in the last 100 years. Freed, not enslaved for 50 years. Please provide a list of humanitarian deeds they have performed, such as starvation relief, earthquake relief, natural disasters etc. I will look for all their good deeds tomorrow night. I know you guys must have plenty on your lists. They are so well known for their good deeds. Just ask Eastern Europe how well they made out under the old Dictators of old and the new one named Putin. Yes sir, the KGB was well known. It was not for being humanitarian. I suspect the new organization is not either. Keep on dreaming boys, we will keep you free. We always have.
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Pellegrine
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:02 am

Putin's letter was very crafty. He really threw Obama under the bus. LOL. Putin is in charge of these things now re. Syria. Amazing how the tide turned.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
As you say, not everyone is perfect. A former head of the KGB certainly is not one to preach to the US about anything. They perfected hypocrisy to the highest degree.

LOL the US who started a false war against Iraq because of George W. Bush's nonsense about regime change. The reasons changed as everyone realized it was initially BS. The world woke up.

People like you blame Putin for playing Cold War politics, yet you do the same thing.

[Edited 2013-09-12 21:03:21]
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seb146
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:14 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 12):
Putin is in charge of these things now re. Syria. Amazing how the tide turned.

Syria and Russia are allies. Putin has more control over Syria than the United States does.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:16 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
They are so well known for their good deeds.

They must be.....

Contributions to UN
Peacekeeping:

US$400 million

http://www.globalhumanitarianassistance.org/countryprofile/russia

Not an insignificant amount by any means.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
Keep on dreaming boys, we will keep you free. We always have.

Its little wonder the US has the reputation it currently has, with attitudes like that.   

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 12):
LOL the US who started a false war against Iraq because of George W. Bush's nonsense about regime change.

Spot on.
That's one for the history books, and as for regime change, what regime are we looking at now. Complete turmoil....
Thanks America !
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Mir
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:03 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts ?

Well, when he says:

We need to use the United Nations Security Council and believe that preserving law and order in today’s complex and turbulent world is one of the few ways to keep international relations from sliding into chaos. The law is still the law, and we must follow it whether we like it or not. Under current international law, force is permitted only in self-defense or by the decision of the Security Council. Anything else is unacceptable under the United Nations Charter and would constitute an act of aggression.

I wonder if he'd apply the same logic to taking military action against Georgia. Actually, he didn't.

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
He also intervenes in a debate which he wouldn't allow to even take place in his own country.

The joke I've seen going around the internets is that he's placed himself in mortal danger by becoming a Russian journalist.   

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
That may be why people are upset about it.

No need to get upset about it - if he wants to put his opinion out there, I'm happy to let him do it. And I'm just as happy to ignore it if I don't believe it has merit.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 12):
Putin's letter was very crafty. He really threw Obama under the bus. LOL. Putin is in charge of these things now re. Syria. Amazing how the tide turned.

Isn't it a good thing that Obama isn't in charge of the Syria situation? Isn't that what you want?

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Pellegrine
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:14 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
Syria and Russia are allies. Putin has more control over Syria than the United States does.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

I don't believe Putin has any control over al-Assad. Putin only offered Assad an exit. Assad doesn't want to give up his chemical weapons...only guess what...by giving them up...Assad is ensuring his staying in power. Why? There can't be any easy regime change in a country with chemical weapons that ensures their safety and non-proliferation.

Under the Russian plan, Assad has to remain in power to ensure the security of the chemical weapons while they are being destroyed. I bet on the destruction process taking in excess of 15-20 years. Putin wants to retain some influence in the Middle East re. Tartus et. al. So it is a win-win situation for Putin and Assad.

If Assad goes, the safety of the chemical weapons cannot be ensured, and it is game over.

Israel, the US, Russia, the Arab League, and everyone else have a lot to worry about if Assad falls.

Personally, I do not believe Basher al-Assad himself ordered these chemical strikes. It seems to me more the work of a rogue general, or as some reports suggest, his brother Maher.

This Arab Spring notion, of the entrenched leaders being ruthless dictators, and the rebels being innocent saviors has gotten old. These rebels are often worse than the dictators...many of whom the US and EU supported over decades. Please, the holier than thou, "we're doing this in the interest of human rights," nonsense got old a decade ago with Iraq.
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EA CO AS
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:18 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal. "

Is that so? How about treating us equally, then?

Signed,

The LGBT community of Russia
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Pellegrine
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:23 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
Isn't it a good thing that Obama isn't in charge of the Syria situation? Isn't that what you want?

Yes it is. And yes it is what I want. I have been a hardcore Obama supporter, he has disappointed me terribly with regards to the NSA, prosecuting whistle-blowers, WikiLeaks, and now Syria. I am still a moderate liberal and a registered Democrat...more of my opinion is in my post below yours.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:27 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
Is that so? How about treating us equally, then?

Signed,

The LGBT community of Russia

Good example

I am one affected by this too EA CO AS, and I'm not particularly happy about it. As I said earlier, very little in life is perfect, especially people, Putin include.

Hopefully Russia will learn to grow, and realize that the current attitude/treatment of gays/lesbians is not the right path to go down. And I think, given time, they will eventually wake up to this.

But I do think he makes some good points about the Syria situation, in the letter regardless.
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Pellegrine
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:41 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
Is that so? How about treating us equally, then?

Signed,

The LGBT community of Russia

I get tired of this too. As long as the United States treated gays like 2nd class citizens, now because of this horrible Russian law, people come out of the woodwork to lambaste them. It's a little bit of cherry-picking richness.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:13 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 20):
It's a little bit of cherry-picking richness.

Yeah....   

Lots of countries appear to have issues with sexual equality, all over the world, including parts of Australian society.

Israel, Egypt one of Americas biggest donors recipients in the ME, grapples with this, as do many countries in Africa, yet the US is strangely silent over their plight?

If its so important to the US, then why wouldn't they make it a requirement of receiving ANY financial assistance ??

Hypocritical perhaps ???....

Just a bit !

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality

[Edited 2013-09-12 23:16:18]
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Francoflier
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:04 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
we must not forget that God created us equal.

'Unless you want to challenge my political dominion. Then God have mercy on you'...
  
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mandala499
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:19 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
A former head of the KGB certainly is not one to preach to the US about anything. They perfected hypocrisy to the highest degree.

So I guess the nobel peace prize to Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat should be revoked too then if we go by your logic...   

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
Please provide a list of humanitarian deeds they have performed, such as starvation relief, earthquake relief, natural disasters etc.

There is a lot of Russian aid that goes without a nice massive stamp of the Russian flag on the bag, unlike the US. Humanitarian deeds for marketing is simply, PR... it's not charity. A lot of US humanitarian help also goes without the nice "FROM THE USA" symbology... but then, once we go to that level, there's no one to believe who gives out what.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 12):
LOL the US who started a false war against Iraq because of George W. Bush's nonsense about regime change. The reasons changed as everyone realized it was initially BS. The world woke up.

The US needs to learn that at times, the US is used by the US' own enemies to make the US overthrow a regime, and then use the US' preach of democracy to install an anti-US faction... These guys no longer have to take airplanes and fly into buildings in the US, all they need to do is fabricate attacks or go on a social media campaign to make a regime look bad, get the mainstream media along, and before you know it, millions of Americans are duped, and these guys end up not only ending up with US attention, but receiving US help to get into power... and then... one day, the US gets a massive wake up call... (eg: Egypt, Libya, etc)... and then the reaction, plays into these guys... by then it's so much easier to play the "US is occupying" or "US is supporting tyrannical regimes" or "US don't like Middle Eastern democracy" card...

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 16):
If Assad goes, the safety of the chemical weapons cannot be ensured, and it is game over.

Israel, the US, Russia, the Arab League, and everyone else have a lot to worry about if Assad falls.

Personally, I do not believe Basher al-Assad himself ordered these chemical strikes. It seems to me more the work of a rogue general, or as some reports suggest, his brother Maher.

Isn't it perfect timing for Assad's rivals within his regime to start going 'rather wild' ?
I seriously think if the US takes action, then the US has been successfully duped.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 16):
This Arab Spring notion, of the entrenched leaders being ruthless dictators, and the rebels being innocent saviors has gotten old. These rebels are often worse than the dictators...many of whom the US and EU supported over decades. Please, the holier than thou, "we're doing this in the interest of human rights," nonsense got old a decade ago with Iraq.

LOL! Nicely put.
Just look at Egypt... 12 years ago this date, who would have thought that the US would endorse the Muslim brotherhood? Iraq aside, the US got duped big time with Egypt this time... the "enemy" has gotten a lot smarter in the last 12 years... I guess the US has forgotten learnt from the Tet offensive... and the numerous ways the media spin can turn...

If the US gets duped with Syria, then the enemy have won!
I see this open letter as a reminder to the US... "remember, the world depends on us understanding what needs to be done in our spheres of influence..."
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blueflyer
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:15 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 4):
Well said. Mr. Putin goes by the rule of do as I say, not as I do. He is the epitome of Hypocrisy.

He may be the epitome of hypocrisy, but when we move to deny someone the right to express their opinion on a technicality, it doesn't say much for our supposed faith in free speech.

Either ignore him or address his criticism. Attacking him personally will win you no argument, and will certainly do nothing to enhance the freedom agenda you claim for the US.
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:28 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
Please provide a list of nations that The USSR, or Russia has freed from tyranny in the last 100 years. Freed, not enslaved for 50 years. Please provide a list of humanitarian deeds they have performed, such as starvation relief, earthquake relief, natural disasters etc. I will look for all their good deeds tomorrow night. I know you guys must have plenty on your lists. They are so well known for their good deeds. Just ask Eastern Europe how well they made out under the old Dictators of old and the new one named Putin. Yes sir, the KGB was well known. It was not for being humanitarian. I suspect the new organization is not either. Keep on dreaming boys, we will keep you free. We always have.

You know, the reason why US government has been and still is the number one hypocrite on this planet is all the BS about "defending freedom and democracy" when in fact you are just fighting against people who disagree with your political and/or economic views.

During the cold war you supported countless of right wing dictatorships and guerrilla groups fighting against legitimate democratic governments, dictatorships and groups that massacred loads of civilians. As long as the dictator or a guerrilla group was pro US and anti Soviet Union it didn't matter how much bad they did. Many countries in Latin America are still full of problems thanks to corrupt right wing dictatorships your government supported.

And yet at the same time you portrayed yourself as a defender of freedom, heh.

Since war on terror started US government has now played a role as a force that protects world from terrorism (which your own actions in the Middle East largely fueled anyway when it comes to terrorism against west).

Still even today United States keeps protecting a terrorist responsible for bombing down Cuban civilian airliner, Cubana flight 455.. Luis Posada Carriles still lives as a free man in Miami although it's perfectly well known he's responsible for that bombing and several other smaller terrorist attacks.

Apparently terrorism is okay as long as it's towards civilians from a country you don't like.

Yeah, it's clear who's the biggest hypocrite here.

[Edited 2013-09-13 01:29:31]
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PhilBy
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:14 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
A former head of the KGB certainly is not one to preach to the US about anything. They perfected hypocrisy to the highest degree.

I would challenge that there was anything hypocritical about the KGB. They didn't exactly deny what they were all about.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
Yes sir, the KGB was well known.

Indeed.
 
smittyone
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:30 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 24):
He may be the epitome of hypocrisy, but when we move to deny someone the right to express their opinion on a technicality, it doesn't say much for our supposed faith in free speech.

Either ignore him or address his criticism. Attacking him personally will win you no argument, and will certainly do nothing to enhance the freedom agenda you claim for the US.

Agreed. Once you go ad hominem you've lost the argument.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):
You know, the reason why US government has been and still is the number one hypocrite on this planet is all the BS about "defending freedom and democracy" when in fact you are just fighting against people who disagree with your political and/or economic views.

During the cold war you supported countless of right wing dictatorships and guerrilla groups fighting against legitimate democratic governments, dictatorships and groups that massacred loads of civilians. As long as the dictator or a guerrilla group was pro US and anti Soviet Union it didn't matter how much bad they did. Many countries in Latin America are still full of problems thanks to corrupt right wing dictatorships your government supported.

And yet at the same time you portrayed yourself as a defender of freedom, heh.

Since war on terror started US government has now played a role as a force that protects world from terrorism (which your own actions in the Middle East largely fueled anyway when it comes to terrorism against west).

Still even today United States keeps protecting a terrorist responsible for bombing down Cuban civilian airliner, Cubana flight 455.. Luis Posada Carriles still lives as a free man in Miami although it's perfectly well known he's responsible for that bombing and several other smaller terrorist attacks.

Apparently terrorism is okay as long as it's towards civilians from a country you don't like.

Yeah, it's clear who's the biggest hypocrite here.

This is a pretty accurate argument, but I find its tone a bit high handed when you consider the open question of whether a Finnish government would have behaved any differently if they were in the US government's shoes. Finland collaborated with the Third Reich when they perceived no better choice...ironically due to the same threat that the US faced (the USSR). Fear makes people do a lot of crazy things. The bigger you are the bigger the crazy.
 
kaitak
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 12):
Putin's letter was very crafty. He really threw Obama under the bus. LOL. Putin is in charge of these things now re. Syria. Amazing how the tide turned.

I think Pellegrine has hit the nail on the head here; what has happened has been a master class in Machiavellian politics; he set a very clever trap; Kerry walked right into it and that was it; there is no longer a threat of military action over Syria; I have no doubt that Assad was strongly advised by the Russians to sign up to the chemical weapons treaty and get rid the stockpile he has. He's safe now; the Russians want Assad to stay; they won. No one can say that the Americans looked anything other than inept and weak - principled, yes, but still inept. They Russians don't give a fiddler's curse about chemical weapons; they are focused on a strategy and nothing will get in the way of that and given the example of Iraq, a mad psychotic dictator is better than a rag tag bunch of hardline terrorists engaged in civil war.

Lesson: principles don't really work in international politics/diplomacy. I'm not saying Obama was wrong in what he said and the line he took; he was very right. Unfortunately, he was up against an opponent who had no interest in this kind of nonsense, saw his opponent was fatally exposed and cut the feet from under him.

There's a reason why the world's top chess players are Russian ...
 
smittyone
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:14 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 28):
I think Pellegrine has hit the nail on the head here; what has happened has been a master class in Machiavellian politics; he set a very clever trap; Kerry walked right into it and that was it; there is no longer a threat of military action over Syria; I have no doubt that Assad was strongly advised by the Russians to sign up to the chemical weapons treaty and get rid the stockpile he has. He's safe now; the Russians want Assad to stay; they won. No one can say that the Americans looked anything other than inept and weak - principled, yes, but still inept. They Russians don't give a fiddler's curse about chemical weapons; they are focused on a strategy and nothing will get in the way of that and given the example of Iraq, a mad psychotic dictator is better than a rag tag bunch of hardline terrorists engaged in civil war.

Lesson: principles don't really work in international politics/diplomacy. I'm not saying Obama was wrong in what he said and the line he took; he was very right. Unfortunately, he was up against an opponent who had no interest in this kind of nonsense, saw his opponent was fatally exposed and cut the feet from under him.

There's a reason why the world's top chess players are Russian ...

Indeed, and I think he (the President) also got set up by his political opponents who goaded him into proclamations of action and then did not support him when he asked the legislature for a mandate to act. For domestic reasons that have nothing to do with Syria.

I think the US is long overdue to make the statement that people should just expect us to do what the Russians, Chinese and every other major power on earth have done...what helps us the most. In reality that is what we have been doing, but ineptly due to the self-imposed baggage of trying to dress it up as something nobler than that.
 
Gatorman96
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:28 pm

Putin is one hell of a politician. He has let the Obama administration "run the show" on the Syria situation, but he has always been in control. The most recent "chemical weapons to international ownership" move was nothing short of brilliant. Not only did it delay US military action, but it allowed Assad to disperse his chem weapons throughout the country to protect them from missile attacks.

I don't typically rip on any administration or world leader because it is a near impossible job (and all leaders of guilty of some type of atrocity), but the OA looks ridiculously foolish in this situation. From their redline comment, to no one, even our closest ally, agreeing to military intervention, to Putin's latest moves, the Obama admin has been completely schooled...
 
tu204
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:46 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):

Who have we freed from tyranny in the last 100 years? Well...for start, lets say the whole world with our participation in World War 2, or atleast all of Europe.

I find it pathetic how many people and people on this forum immediately jump to highly uneducated shortsighted cold war era statements about Russia.

It does show a glimmer of hope that more and more people worldwide are actually taking a balanced view on international affairs and not blindly believing what is said by others...
As for the others - what does it matter if he is the President of the Russian Federation? Did you take the time to read his words? Or do you want to blindly believe people like John McCain without analysing any of the actuall information? Or have you found WMD's in Iraq without anyone's knowledge?

In Russia we have uneducated individuals laughing about "those Americans are stuipid", in America you have these people apparently...
But then again, reading President Putin's statement, it is clearly aimed towards more educated Americans that must already be leaning against the idea of military intervention in Syria. I am kind of sure that those screaming about him being a KGB agent and the likes have no clue where Mali is on a map or they probably don't even know what the League of Nations was or what it did either...

[Edited 2013-09-13 17:07:41]
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WarRI1
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:38 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):Keep on dreaming boys, we will keep you free. We always have.



Its little wonder the US has the reputation it currently has, with attitudes like that.

Oh my! Australia, a country I have always admired, what has happened? Australia, the land of tough hard drinking men, the land of hard fighting soldiers who are our Allies, who fought by our side so many times in war. I wonder if many Australians feel that Russia is now the new leader of the Free world, defender of human rights, Democratic principles, provider of aid to the downtrodden. Defender of free speech, religious freedom, open government, equality for all. I did not think that I misspoke, nor made any false claims when I said, we will keep you free, we always have. We spend billions doing so. We are friends to most Australians, not all it seems, but I claim most of them.
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romeobravo
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:56 am

I happen to agree with a lot he says. He of course has his own agenda though, and it's a pretty questionable character himself.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:01 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 31):
Who have we freed from tyranny in the last 100 years? Well...for start, lets say the whole world with our participation in World War 2, or atleast all of Europe.

A big claim there, the whole world. Not hardly, a contributor for sure, after the failure of the pact with Hitler forced the issue. I might remind some of the enslavement of Eastern Europe after the war. I might remind some of the massacre of the Polish Officers at Katyn Forest 14 K dead. Finland. I might remind some of the Berlin Wall, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and the Gulag, Stalin, the KGB and the shot behind the ear. Mass burials. Beria, and many more. Lest I forget, the Cuban Missile Crisis. Such a sterling record for some to admire.

We now have that humanitarian Putin, not really ex-KGB. It is alive and well by another name. We now have the old switcheroo to keep him in power. We now have a hero riding shirtless, hunting, flying, fishing, riding motorcycles at night, karate. Seems like old times in the Soviet Union, which was all an illusion.
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:05 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 33):
I happen to agree with a lot he says. He of course has his own agenda though, and it's a pretty questionable character himself.

As we all do, and I certainly do not think he qualifies to preach to us. One has to wonder what did it take to become head of the KGB? I think he is a big actor.
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:28 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):
You know, the reason why US government has been and still is the number one hypocrite on this planet is all the BS about "defending freedom and democracy" when in fact you are just fighting against people who disagree with your political and/or economic views



We would all like to be loved, but that is impossible as we can see, the youngers should all read more history to see who has been their real friends in the past, and now. Alas, it seems that some do not know history, or understand what countries have killed their fellow countrymen, and under what conditions. In this matter, the US in above reproach, when it comes to Europe, or even Finland. Not so for our friend Putin and his predecessors.

[Edited 2013-09-13 18:30:49]
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ltbewr
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:45 am

Putin has plenty of motivation to do a deal.
He (like the USA and even Israel) would rather have the Assad family in control rather than a potentially anti-western and Russian, radical Islamic leadership or a fractured, family states. A radical Islamic state would likely hurt Israel but more importantly for Russia, could lead to more support of Islamic anti-Russian groups in the areas of the Russian Federation adjacent to Syria.
He gets to look like the 'good guy' as well as strengthen his position in the world and over Pres. Obama.
It make him look like a 'statesman' to most of the world, especially with the Winter Olympics coming soon.
He keeps a client for arms, various goods, closer involvement with their small oil and natural gas revenues for Russia vs. the USA and EC countries. It brings back and expands Russia's 'sphere of influence' and power in the world lost in the collapse of the USSR.
It offsets his crackdown on dissent and on GLTB's and it's protests from other countries.
It also helps give the USA an out of any military action.

Of course, Putin's ideas have ticked off the Left and Right here in the USA, as both hate Putin for their reasons. As much as I despise him, I would accept this proposed deal as it prevent killing more innocents and more hate toward the USA and Israel.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:07 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 31):
Did you take the time to read his words? Or do you want to blindly believe people like John McCain without analysing

When one has been shot down, imprisoned and tortured for seven years at the hands of the agents of the then USSR, he has a unique perspective that we do not. He is going to write an article for Pravda in response to Putin. He may not have much love for his captors and their Allies.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:31 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 34):
Seems like old times in the Soviet Union, which was all an illusion.

Oh, its no illusion.

If it was, do you really think the US would even bother to respond ?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
Please provide a list of nations that The USSR, or Russia has freed from tyranny in the last 100 years. Freed, not enslaved for 50 years. Please provide a list of humanitarian deeds they have performed, such as starvation relief, earthquake relief, natural disasters etc.

Well here it is again for you .......

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
http://www.globalhumanitarianassistance.org/countryprofile/russia


[Edited 2013-09-13 19:38:45]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:51 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 39):
Oh, its no illusion.

I did say the USSR, it was most certainly an illusion, held together by brute force, the secret police, and ruthlessness. the USSR is no more, destroyed by those same illusions. Cold War, West won, freedom is alive and well here. We now have the Russian Federation, trying to make a comeback. So far, does not look good for the people, not much freedom, not much democracy, same old KGB, New name, suppressed freedom of speech, press, recycled leaders, old guard still there. Illusion is alive and well. An actor for a leader.
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EA CO AS
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:06 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):Is that so? How about treating us equally, then?

Signed,

The LGBT community of Russia
Good example

I am one affected by this too EA CO AS, and I'm not particularly happy about it. As I said earlier, very little in life is perfect, especially people, Putin include.

Hopefully Russia will learn to grow, and realize that the current attitude/treatment of gays/lesbians is not the right path to go down. And I think, given time, they will eventually wake up to this.

I'm not affected by it, however I strongly dislike hypocrites and for Putin to take this holier-than-thou attitude and espousing equality while simultaneously cracking down on a percentage of his own people based on their sexuality and/or gender identity is appalling.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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seb146
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:20 am

First you say:

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
if he wants to put his opinion out there, I'm happy to let him do it

Then you say:

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
I'm just as happy to ignore it if I don't believe it has merit.

Make up your mind. Can he have an opinion or not?

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 16):
Putin wants to retain some influence in the Middle East re. Tartus et. al. So it is a win-win situation for Putin and Assad.

And for United States and Israel. Let's not forget that if United States had bombed key targets in Syria, Assad would have struck Israel.

Now, can gas prices go back down? Oh, wait... they can't. And oil companies showing record profits just happens to be a coincidence.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:40 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
I did say the USSR, it was most certainly an illusion, held together by brute force, the secret police, and ruthlessness.

You asked for a list

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):
He is going to write an article for Pravda in response to Putin.

Well, that will be balanced and fair.......

McCain is a warmonger, one who falls asleep at congressional hearings, as his peers talk about how they will best kill Syrians.

Onya Johnny.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 41):
I'm not affected by it, however I strongly dislike hypocrites

Can you please tell me, one world leader, anywhere, who has NOT been hypocritical at some point in time.

Good read below...

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/...also-hypocrisy-versus-honesty.html

[Edited 2013-09-13 20:42:01]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:49 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 43):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):He is going to write an article for Pravda in response to Putin.
Well, that will be balanced and fair.......

Freedom of the press will be alive and well for a little while, and that is a good thing in Russia and elsewhere.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
seb146
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:30 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 44):
Freedom of the press will be alive and well for a little while, and that is a good thing in Russia and elsewhere.

Is McCain really the best person to write a response? The leader of Russia writes his opinion in NYT and the best United States can do is McCain? I have some respect for McCain but, really, McCain?
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Mir
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:24 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 42):
Make up your mind. Can he have an opinion or not?

Where did I say he couldn't have an opinion?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:24 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts ?

A very well-crafted PR piece, nothing more.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 28):
what has happened has been a master class in Machiavellian politics; he set a very clever trap; Kerry walked right into it

Totally agree. Putin has added to the number of hoops western democracies tend to jump through. He himself operates a minimal-hoop policy, while Assad doesn't require any at all. He's taking the West for fools.
 
tu204
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:45 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):

Yeah, thats called war. May I remind you that some of his countrymen simply massacered North Vietnamese and McCain was afterall bombing their country. In a state of war. What would you have liked them to do when they shot him down? Put him in a 5 star hotel? He recieved better treatment than many North Vietnamese in American hands. He should send a postcard or something.
So he has some bad blood with Russia based on that...allright. But why you would elect such a lunatic into Senate is beyond me. Not saying we are any better, we have Vladimir Zhirinovsky who is on the same level of crazy, but our lunatic seems to want to bomb other nations for PR reasons. Yours actually lobbies hard to have that happen.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
NAV20
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RE: Putins Open Letter To America

Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:58 am

I think some people are being a bit hard on Putin. In my view he has done Obama an enormous favour by getting the President off the hook with regard to the absurd 'short sharp raid' he foolishly proposed. And Putin has 'followed up' by joining the US in setting up negotiations:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24089510
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