HOMER71
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Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:32 pm

They are reporting multiple fatalities, possibly more than one shooter:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...d1-7153ad47b549_story.html?hpid=z1



Prayers to all affected
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Aesma
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:30 pm

12 dead apparently, pretty bad !
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srbmod
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:44 pm

One shooter is confirmed and is among the confirmed dead. There were two additional persons of interest and one of them has been cleared and one is still being sought. U.S. Capitol Police are out in force and have stepped up security at the Capitol and the Senate was scheduled to be in session today, but Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid called off the session and the Capitol is now under lock down. Considering the building in question is a controlled access building, this means the shooter (or shooters) is likely someone that perhaps worked at that particular building. Now if they were members of the military or civilian contractors (possibly wearing military-style uniforms) is yet to be determined.

[Edited 2013-09-16 11:54:52]
 
johnboy
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:03 pm

Shooter (at least one) identified at Aaron Alexis, 34-year-old "military contractor" from Texas, per CNN.


Sounds kinda vague, what exactly would a military contractor be, to those more knowledgeable in these matters?
 
flymia
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:08 pm

Shooter identified. No word on the other possible subject. My guess is witnesses and security cameras showing another possible shooter or someone involved. Authorities are probably trying to find that person and confirm he isn't a subject. Will be interesting to see what happens with that the next few hours.

As for military contractor that can be anything from a computer specialist to the people working on construction of the buildings in Navy Yard. News is saying he had a military civilian ID. In all likely hood with an ID this guy never had his bags checked or any metal detectors. At least that's how it works at the facilities I have worked out. Of course to get that ID you need to have a fairly extensive background check. More than just a criminal history check.
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Tugger
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:09 pm

Quoting johnboy (Reply 3):
Sounds kinda vague, what exactly would a military contractor be, to those more knowledgeable in these matters?

A civilian employee, employed under contract to work on a government/military job.

Probably the best know example of this is Blackwater (now defunct and operating under a new name), it was a private company that employed civilians to do jobs for the government under contract.

Tugg
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thomil13FRA
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:18 pm

Not again! Haven't there been enough such incidents in the US recently? Can't that country get a break for a change?
My thoughts are with the victims and their families. I hope they get all the support they need, and, more importantly, that no more people get shot today.      

Quoting johnboy (Reply 3):
Sounds kinda vague, what exactly would a military contractor be, to those more knowledgeable in these matters?

That can be all kinds of things, from janitors to accountants and even project managers or security personnel. The latter was my job from 2005 to 2006, when I worked at the US Army garrison in Hanau. Our job would basically be to check IDs and vehicles, make sure that nothing and nobody who was unwanted comes onto the base. In that function, we would carry firearms, which could, if those guys worked in security, explain where they got their weapons without causing suspicions. That could also explain the uniforms, though that can be brought onto the facility pretty easily.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting thomil13FRA (Reply 6):
In that function, we would carry firearms, which could, if those guys worked in security, explain where they got their weapons without causing suspicions. That could also explain the uniforms, though that can be brought onto the facility pretty easily.

In most of the bases I've been to it would be extremely easy to throw a bunch of stuff in the trunk. RIP to the victims and I hope this doesn't change the way we do security checks at military bases... it's already a pain to get through during peak hours
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TheCommodore
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:41 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I hope this doesn't change the way we do security checks at military bases... it's already a pain to get through during peak hours

Well then keep you fingers crossed, cause I reckon you can expect things to get a whole lot slower because of this, and so they should.

With some of the attitudes Ive seen discussed here, about guns and the US culture, these sorts of things a re going to continue to happen. So its probably fair to say, things are not going to be made easier now, especially at bases

Why is this occurring (as often as it does) in such an affluent country as America, and nobody seems to be able to do anything about it

RIP to the victims
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jetblueguy22
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:14 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
With some of the attitudes Ive seen discussed here, about guns and the US culture, these sorts of things a re going to continue to happen. So its probably fair to say, things are not going to be made easier now, especially at bases

It's a military base with tons of weapons around. This could have easily been a soldier who was armed with a service weapon. Yes it was a contractor, but it is an area loaded with weapons. Not a shopping mall or movie theater.

RIP to all of those killed at the base and may the injured recover swift. It's a shame when these things happen. Hopefully they can find out what they missed and fix it so nothing like this ever happens again.
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srbmod
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:20 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 8):
Why is this occurring (as often as it does) in such an affluent country as America, and nobody seems to be able to do anything about it

Because any attempts to strengthen gun laws tends to not change things too much, as new bans and new regulations don't necessarily take weapons off of the streets as in most cases, they are grandfathered in . Guns are readily available here via legal and illegal channels. Certain weapon types can be legally bought without any sort of background check in certain circumstances, like a private sale (unless state law requires one). Right now, I can call a relative of mine and say that I'm looking for a certain type of gun, in most cases, if he doesn't have one to sell to me, he knows someone that does.
 
IADCA
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
It's a military base with tons of weapons around. This could have easily been a soldier who was armed with a service weapon. Yes it was a contractor, but it is an area loaded with weapons. Not a shopping mall or movie theater.

The Navy Yard's largely an administrative location. It's got the history buffs, the law buffs, the music buffs, and a lot of other HQ-type stuff. It's not like there are SEALs running around the place doing live-fire exercises. It's literally across the street from an active nightlife district and it's 4 blocks from a Major League Baseball stadium. The DOT is right there, too.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:28 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
It's a military base with tons of weapons around.

I Understand that.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
Yes it was a contractor,

Working at a naval base. He also had, its now been discovered, a criminal ....

"The dead gunman at the scene has been identified as 34-year-old civilian contractor Aaron Alexis, originally from Fort Worth, Texas.

He was identified by photographic ID found on his body.

He is believed to have a criminal record there and to be a holder of a concealed carry weapon permit."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/washingt...-20130916-2tvij.html#ixzz2f5pho31C

So its probably not going to be out of the question that stronger/tighter measures will now have to happen. I presume this will generally effect most people on these types of facilities. No ?

Quoting srbmod (Reply 10):
Certain weapon types can be legally bought without any sort of background check in certain circumstances, like a private sale (unless state law requires one).

I don't really know what to say to that ?

This guy as it turns out, had a conceal to carry, even though he had a criminal record !

[Edited 2013-09-16 14:29:56]
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:46 pm

Back duting the old cold war days the US and the British military in West b erlin used German civilian security personnel to do the boring tasks of guarding the installations (the French and Russians had conscripts to do the job).
As for the German security guards employed by the US Army (I grew up 500 metres away from a US Army barracks), they wore the 1970s style olive drab US Army uniforms, with a black MP style steel helmet and were armed with standard US military service weapons (e.g. at this time the M1911 Colt Government pistol or the M16A1 rifle). They were under the command of the military police and had their own rank structure up to sergeant.
The British army in West berlin had a similar system.

I remember an incident from the 1980s, when two German guards on night duty in the American elementary school in West Berlin fought out some personal conflict using their service weapons, leaving one of them dead (I think the conflict was about a woman). No children or other people were in the vicinity, since it happened in the middle of the night.

In the German military in the garrisons back home all weapons are locked away in the armoury unless the soldiers gets an order to draw them for duty. The only exception is in Afghanistan, where the soldiers have to carry at least a pistol all the time to defend themselves in case of Aghan soldiers or police officers on base turning renegade.

Jan
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:20 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
It's a military base with tons of weapons around. This could have easily been a soldier who was armed with a service weapon. Yes it was a contractor, but it is an area loaded with weapons. Not a shopping mall or movie theater.

Um, have you ever been to a military base before?

I don't get why people think that there are people walking around with machine guns everywhere on military bases. Most bases only have base police or MPs which are like any other police department. Guns are very heavily regulated on military bases, and even on Army bases that have ranges, weapons are carefully monitored and ammo is only distributed on ranges. They are unloaded afterwards and a lot of times the weapons get checked back in. (Yes it's possible to smuggle out ammo but it's a far cry from soldiers strutting around locked and loaded ready to blast work place shooters away)

Edit: sorry if that sounded mean but it's a very incorrect view of a military base. I'm not sure what you were trying to say, are you saying that it's a military base so he could easily obtain an M-16 or whatever he used? Again, you must have never seen an arms room and how much of a pain it can be to check out a weapon when you actually need it. I'm 90% sure this was a personal weapon, I think they are saying it was an AR-15 style rife and although the Navy has those, not even the MAs use them that much. You aren't gonna find them laying around, and IDK how a contractor would get them

[Edited 2013-09-16 16:24:56]
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fr8mech
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:44 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I hope this doesn't change the way we do security checks at military bases...


I just drove passed the local Air National Gaurd gate and it was backed up about 6 or 7 cars. Don't see that too often.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
It's a military base with tons of weapons around.


Federal facilties tend to be gun free zones by statute. As I understand it, whether or not personnel are allowed to carry/keep on a military facility is up to the base commander. Generally, any faciity I've been to (and I haven't been to any in the last 10 years), the only folks allowed to be armed were the security folks.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 12):
This guy as it turns out, had a conceal to carry, even though he had a criminal record !


A criminal record does not disqualify someone from purchasing a firearm. A felony record does. Certain misdemeanors (those related to domestic violence) also disqualify a person from owning a firearm.

As for a CCW: states vary as to their requirements, but I suspect that most will follow the federal guidelines for firearms ownership. I assume this guy had a CCW from TX. They are more restrictive than federal government ownership guidelines.

[Edited 2013-09-16 16:44:56]
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zanl188
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:59 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
It's a military base with tons of weapons around. This could have easily been a soldier who was armed with a service weapon. Yes it was a contractor, but it is an area loaded with weapons.

I've been on US military bases for the last 30 years. - only folks routinely carrying loaded weapons around are Security Forces. Only exception I'm aware of is for those handling or transporting large quantities of weapons - they'll be armed.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 15):
Federal facilties tend to be gun free zones by statute. As I understand it, whether or not personnel are allowed to carry/keep on a military facility is up to the base commander. Generally, any faciity I've been to (and I haven't been to any in the last 10 years), the only folks allowed to be armed were the security folks.

It's a PITA to have a personal weapon on base. You can transport it from the gate to the Security Forces armory for storage, and then back to the gate. That's it.
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Aesma
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:11 am

So there are more guns and they're easier to get in the street that in a military base. Makes sense.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:17 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 15):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I hope this doesn't change the way we do security checks at military bases...


I just drove passed the local Air National Gaurd gate and it was backed up about 6 or 7 cars. Don't see that too often.

Went through the gates on my base today twice, nothing different. I just hope we don't have to have our cars searched, go through metal detectors, etc
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TheCommodore
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:28 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 2):
One shooter is confirmed and is among the confirmed dead.

Apparently, he rescued Sept 11 victims, and suffered from PTS

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 15):
A criminal record does not disqualify someone from purchasing a firearm. A felony record does. Certain misdemeanors (those related to domestic violence) also disqualify a person from owning a firearm.

Quote from the article.......

"The Seattle Police Department confirmed Alexis had been arrested in 2004 after shooting out the tyres of another man's vehicle in what Alexis had described to police was an anger-fuelled “blackout”. He said he had been present during "the tragic events of September 11, 2001" and described "how those events had disturbed him", according to the police report."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/washingt...-20130917-2tvsm.html#ixzz2f6a1NU00


And despite this record, he is still entitled to own and carry a gun      

What are you guys doing over there ?????
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:33 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
So there are more guns and they're easier to get in the street that in a military base. Makes sense.

We have fairly strict gun laws in Germany. It is in fact easier (and cheaper) to get an illegal black market gun (even those, which you would never get legally as a civilian, like fully automatic ones) than to jump through all the hoops and legalities of getting a gun permit. Police estimates that there are at least the same number of illegal guns in Germany as legal, registered ones.

The military are (except in a combat zone, where the soldiers might be attacked at any time and have to be ready to defend themselves on a moment´s notice) very strict about their weapons, ammunition, explosives and e.g. vehicles.
You will have your own, personal rifle, but it will be stored in the barracks armoury and you can only check it out for duty purposes with a written order by a superior of a certain level (it most likely has to be an officer, not just a corporal).

We didn´t have guns in the technical branch of the civil defense, where I served, but we used explosives for demolitions. Every cartridge (stick) of explosive and every package had a serial number, which was registered right from the factory. Every blasting cap and every cartridge had to be accounted for in a logbook. We kept our explosives in a bunker (actually two separate bunkers, one for the explosives and one for the detonators) under guard by the police. To draw explosives you needed a written order for which type and the amount you were to pick up, and this was only given for a certain demolition project.

Jan
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Okie
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:53 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
And despite this record, he is still entitled to own and carry a gun

What are you guys doing over there ?????

The best I can tell he has only be involved with misdemeanors.
You can get in more trouble over a citation for "reckless driving"

It would take a felony to keep you from getting a CW permit.
Even a felony for that matter really does not indicate a propensity for violence. You can get a felony conviction for a lot of things other than a violent crime.

I thought right now is that he apparently had made some type of plans for this act. I am not really sure that he woke up this morning and decided to go shoot up the military base.
Hopefully they will find something he has written or left behind that will give some indication of what he was thinking.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
Went through the gates on my base today twice, nothing different. I just hope we don't have to have our cars searched, go through metal detectors, etc

Drove by the gates at the military base that I have privileges and there was a line so they are apparently doing some additional checks and asking questions. However, there was not a line like after some other major events with metal detectors and dogs. They have had some events on base over the years when they have locked down the base, I got trapped on base when one of those happened. Had to wait about 4 hours for them to open the gates again to leave.

Okie
 
fr8mech
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:19 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
And despite this record, he is still entitled to own and carry a gun

Record means nothing when it comes to the law. Was he charged? Convicted of a felony? Felony, among a few other things, is the disqualifier.

His mental state is concerning, but had he ever been treated? Is there a record of treatment? Was he ever adjudicated as mentally defective or committed to a mental institution?

It appears that he entered the Navy Reserves after the incident in Seattle. Did he exhibit any symptoms while in the service?

Apparently he held a recent security clearance. That means his background was investigated.

Alexis had a security clearance that was updated in July and was approved by military security service personnel, according to the Washington Post.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/washingt...30917-2tvsm.html#ixzz2f6mDcdfU
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cmf
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting okie (Reply 21):
The best I can tell he has only be involved with misdemeanors.
You can get in more trouble over a citation for "reckless driving"

Don't understand how someone who have shoot out other peoples tyres can be seen fit to carry.
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Okie
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:53 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
Don't understand how someone who have shoot out other peoples tyres can be seen fit to carry

IF incident did happen then apparently he was not convicted, we do not know if someone was in the car or if he was shooting at an unattended parked vehicle.
I am guessing the later, which would not be a felony necessarily and it could be just someone hyping up an incident.
I think right now we are getting a lot of media hype, those accusations could be someone jumping on the media hype wagon.

What ever the incident if it did indeed happen was it was not too serious or he would have not gotten security clearance or a CW permit.

Okie
 
fr8mech
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:04 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
Don't understand how someone who have shoot out other peoples tyres can be seen fit to carry.

I would tend to agree.

Did Seattle decide not to charge? Is the law for weapon's discharge in Seattle sufficient? Was he convicted of anything?


Quoting okie (Reply 24):
he would have not gotten security clearance or a CW permit.

Exactly.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
cmf
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:15 am

Quoting okie (Reply 24):
IF incident did happen then apparently he was not convicted, we do not know if someone was in the car or if he was shooting at an unattended parked vehicle.

 

If you shoot at other peoples property* then you have demonstrated you do not possess the sound judgement required to carry loaded weapons in public. That you make it dependent on if a person is in the car at the time means I would disqualify you too.

* With permission and at a safe location of course exempted.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:15 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 9):
It's a military base with tons of weapons around. This could have easily been a soldier who was armed with a service weapon. Yes it was a contractor, but it is an area loaded with weapons. Not a shopping mall or movie theater.

Actually I believe the Washington Navy Yard is a "gun free zone".
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fr8mech
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:22 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
That you make it dependent on if a person is in the car at the time means I would disqualify you too.

The distinction is that one is probably a misdemeanor and the other a felony. One disqualifies someone from owning, much less carrying, a firearm the other does not...assuming a conviction.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:24 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 22):
Record means nothing when it comes to the law. Was he charged? Convicted of a felony? Felony, among a few other things, is the disqualifier.

His mental state is concerning, but had he ever been treated? Is there a record of treatment? Was he ever adjudicated as mentally defective or committed to a mental institution?

But surely he cant be regarded as competent to hold a gun license after shooting at someones tyres

Quoting okie (Reply 21):
The best I can tell he has only be involved with misdemeanors.
Quoting okie (Reply 24):
if it did indeed happen was it was not too serious or he would have not gotten security clearance or a CW permit.

I would have thought that shooting at tyres is serious enough not to be issued with a gun permits or security clearance after that, conviction or not. There was obviously something fishy going on, enough at least, to have some concern dont you think ?
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fr8mech
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:35 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 29):
There was obviously something fishy going on, enough at least, to have some concern dont you think ?

You're correct. It's my opinion that he probably should have been denied a clearance based on just the arrest (if he was arrested).

Information and facts are lacking.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 29):
But surely he cant be regarded as competent to hold a gun license after shooting at someones tyres

I think the problem is that he claimed that he did this because he was 'disturbed' by the events of 9/11 and his participation there. That this was a mental issue. So, can this information be shared? Did HIPAA restrictions play into this at all?

Is it a problem that the Seattle PD shared this information this quickly?

And, remember, he enlisted in the military after the event in Seattle. I assume there is some sort of pyschological evaluation during the induction process, or soon thereafter.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
cmf
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:39 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
The distinction is that one is probably a misdemeanor and the other a felony. One disqualifies someone from owning, much less carrying, a firearm the other does not...assuming a conviction.
Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 30):
I think the problem is that he claimed that he did this because he was 'disturbed' by the events of 9/11 and his participation there. That this was a mental issue. So, can this information be shared? Did HIPAA restrictions play into this at all?

Just more examples of our laws being crazy.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:50 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 31):
Just more examples of our laws being crazy.

The laws are at odds with each other.

18USC922 says that someone who has been adjudicated mentally defective or committed to an institution can not own a firearm. Is there a national database of these folks, or would such a database run afoul of medical privacy laws?

What about at the state level, where CCW's are issued? Does a state have ready access, absent a warrant, to this information?

[Edited 2013-09-16 19:51:21]
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flymia
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
I just hope we don't have to have our cars searched, go through metal detectors, etc

Agreed. Hope there is not a knee jerk reaction to this requiring cleared personnel to go through security searches.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 22):
His mental state is concerning, but had he ever been treated? Is there a record of treatment? Was he ever adjudicated as mentally defective or committed to a mental institution?

Maybe we will know. It is still too early. I will say the more this crazy people shoot the more mental health state of the country needs to be checked.

Quoting okie (Reply 24):
What ever the incident if it did indeed happen was it was not too serious or he would have not gotten security clearance o
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 29):
I would have thought that shooting at tyres is serious enough not to be issued with a gun permits or security clearance after that, conviction or not.

Agreed. Seems as though he had two arrest involving discharging a weapon. IMO, even with no conviction this guy had no business getting a security clearance.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):
Actually I believe the Washington Navy Yard is a "gun free zone".
All of D.C. is a gun free zone. There are now CCW in D.C. the only people allowed to carry guns outside of their private property are Law Enforcement officers. Even then, non Federal and non D.C. cops can get in trouble for having their firearms.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting IADCA (Reply 11):
The Navy Yard's largely an administrative location.

Do they have MPs?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 12):
Working at a naval base. He also had, its now been discovered, a criminal ....

Well the guy was also a former Naval reservist. He's been on bases for a while. Whether he should have been one in the first place is up to debate.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
I don't get why people think that there are people walking around with machine guns everywhere on military bases. Most bases only have base police or MPs which are like any other police department. Guns are very heavily regulated on military bases, and even on Army bases that have ranges, weapons are carefully monitored and ammo is only distributed on ranges. They are unloaded afterwards and a lot of times the weapons get checked back in. (Yes it's possible to smuggle out ammo but it's a far cry from soldiers strutting around locked and loaded ready to blast work place shooters away)

I don't believe it's like entering a base in Afghanistan. But something tells me the concentration of arms per person is higher than in say a normal city.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Edit: sorry if that sounded mean but it's a very incorrect view of a military base. I'm not sure what you were trying to say, are you saying that it's a military base so he could easily obtain an M-16 or whatever he used?

Not being mean. Grew up in a military family. I understand how it goes. It's not a piece of cake to get a rifle or some other type of weapon. But I don't think you can discount the fact that someone would be able to gain access to a weapon.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):
Actually I believe the Washington Navy Yard is a "gun free zone".

As in all personnel? Or do they have MPs/SPs guarding the area?
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
cmf
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:32 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 32):
What about at the state level, where CCW's are issued? Does a state have ready access, absent a warrant, to this information?

Pretty crazy if they don't, or?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:34 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 34):
I don't believe it's like entering a base in Afghanistan. But something tells me the concentration of arms per person is higher than in say a normal city.

You'd be surprised. Access to firearms on a military installation is restricted. Add, that The Navy Yard is sits inside the city limits of a city that is considered one of the most restrictive in terms of gun control; I suspect the only people with firearms inside the fence were the shooter and the security personnel.

[Edited 2013-09-16 20:43:07]
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:07 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 33):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
I just hope we don't have to have our cars searched, go through metal detectors, etc

Agreed. Hope there is not a knee jerk reaction to this requiring cleared personnel to go through security searches.

The thing is, it almost wouldn't be a knee jerk reaction. They didn't do anything after the Ft Hood shooting, now this happens. I hope they don't start now...

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 34):
I don't believe it's like entering a base in Afghanistan. But something tells me the concentration of arms per person is higher than in say a normal city.

A normal city with citizens carrying handguns vs a military that forbids weapons (minus a few bases with ranges that you need to register to get on base?)

Maybe, just maybe if this was an Army base or something, but this was Washington Navy Yard. As far as I know, it was just the base police or MAs with guns, just like most bases

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 34):
Not being mean. Grew up in a military family. I understand how it goes. It's not a piece of cake to get a rifle or some other type of weapon. But I don't think you can discount the fact that someone would be able to gain access to a weapon.

Unless he is base security, I highly highly highly doubt that. You just don't make a copy of a key when no one is looking.

Kind of a moot point, I'm sure we'll find out very soon if it was a personal weapon or not. It most likely was a personal weapon, and even as a gun owner, hearing the "military bases and DC have strict gun laws and this still happened" will be like nails on a chalk board as if it's impossible to straw purchase or leave DC to get an AR.
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Bongodog1964
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:05 pm

Here we go again, as President Obama said in his speech, another US gun massacre. As he doesn't have the opprtunity to seek re election can he not stand up and attempt to enforce what he preaches and make a serious attempt at gun control. He might then go down in the record books as the president who took a firm stand and defied the NRA.

Very soon all the usual excuses will come out such as, "it wouldn't deal with illegal guns" and "its a constitutional right"

My reply to the 1st would be that it appears in the vast majority of cases that the weapons used are legally held, the illegal users appear to not have a predeliction to mass hootings, and to the 2nd, is it not also a constitutional right to be able to go to work and then home again at the end of the day rather than a trip to the mortuary ?
 
soon7x7
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:41 pm

It is not about guns...never is...It is about the emotional disposition of a nation. For too many reasons this country has been operating at the Lunatic Fringe level and it all starts at the top.
 
slider
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:22 pm

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/...on-alexis-navy-yard-shooter-567432

So ONCE again, we have a mentally deranged individual, with a prior record, with plenty of warning signs that were all summarily ignored by the government.

Not dissimilar to Ft Hood and Nadal Hasan, this guy too was given security clearance inexplicably.

Heads should roll to go with the souls of the innocents that were murdered.

This isn't about guns. Strawman argument and we're past that (even if mouthbreathers like Piers Morgan and DIane Feinstein aren't).

This is about govenment failing.
 
IADCA
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:32 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 34):

Quoting IADCA (Reply 11):
The Navy Yard's largely an administrative location.

Do they have MPs?

As far as I know, the only MPs or security personnel of any sort are the gate guards, perhaps plus a very few scattered around. I could be wrong - haven't actually been inside the wall in a few years - but I find your view pretty puzzling. Like others, I'm not sure what you're trying to say about the number of guns on the base. It's not like he just picked up a gun that was sitting around. He walked in with an AR-15, and after that he's essentially walking around something that looks like a mix of an office park and a college campus. Here's a summary of what the Navy Yard is like: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...11e3-b7d1-7153ad47b549_story.html.
 
flymia
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 38):
My reply to the 1st would be that it appears in the vast majority of cases that the weapons used are legally held, the illegal users appear to not have a predeliction to mass hootings

The problem here is these stories are the only ones that get national and world wide attention. Thousands of people die from murder by guns every year in this country. Most of those thousands who are murdered (not self defense, not suicide, not accidents) but murder are done with illegal guns or illegally carried guns. Mass shootings are not the majority at all, they are a very small minority of a bigger problem. Violence is the problem.

Quoting Slider (Reply 40):
So ONCE again, we have a mentally deranged individual, with a prior record, with plenty of warning signs that were all summarily ignored by the government.

So sad to see the same exact situation again. VA Tech, Ft. Hood, Aurora, Newtown, and now Navy Yard. They ALL had warning signs, nothing was done, everything was ignored. If we actually want to end mass shootings in this country our mental health care system and the way doctors share information needs to be revamped. I am also for mental health checks such as just a note from an MD before purchasing a gun.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
cmf
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:29 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 40):
This isn't about guns. Strawman argument and we're past that

Actually it is a lot about guns, especially attitude to guns. How can you address misuse of guns if you pretend guns isn't part of the issue?

Quoting Slider (Reply 40):
This is about govenment failing.

To fix it we need to look at what is causing the government to fail. Why is it impossible to have any changes made about gun control? This is more blood on the hands on those constantly voting down proper actions and the circle around and blaming the government.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:07 pm

From what I´ve read on another site, the guy used another worker´s ID to get access to the facility (the other worker had recently been terminated, but his ID not yet cancelled). He brought a double barreled shotgun (possibly sawn off to fit into a bag, like Lupara). In most countries shotguns like these with only two rounds, are a lot easier to get than rifles or handguns. Devastating as they might be on short range, due to their short range and limited firepower (plus their legetimate use in hunting) they are normally not as strictly regulated as rifles or handguns. Cutting the barrels and buttstock off, of course, changes them into something highly illegal (like the Sicilian Mafia style Lupara used for assessinations), but the basic, full length hunting weapon is easy to get, as it the ammunition.

With this weapon he apparently shot a security guard and took his handgun to commit the other killings with.

Jan
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MaverickM11
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:07 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
Actually it is a lot about guns, especially attitude to guns. How can you address misuse of guns if you pretend guns isn't part of the issue?

It's never about guns. It's always about mental health, or video games, or not enough guns, or rap music, or video games (wait, did we use that one already even though it's been disproven thoroughly multiple times? Try it again!). Maybe this time we can blame Buddhism? Yeah go with that.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
cmf
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:17 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
It's never about guns.

At least that is what NRA and CO. want us to believe.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
cmf
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:26 pm

For those questioning the tyre shooting, http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2013/0...seattle-for-anger-fueled-shooting/

Quote:
Following his arrest, Alexis told detectives he perceived he had been “mocked” by construction workers the morning of the incident and said they had “disrespected him.” Alexis also claimed he had an anger-fueled “blackout,” and could not remember firing his gun at the victims’ vehicle until an hour after the incident.

How can anyone defend that someone who behaved like this should be allowed to carry weapons?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 40):
So ONCE again, we have a mentally deranged individual, with a prior record, with plenty of warning signs that were all summarily ignored by the government.

Not dissimilar to Ft Hood and Nadal Hasan, this guy too was given security clearance inexplicably.

Heads should roll to go with the souls of the innocents that were murdered.

This isn't about guns. Strawman argument and we're past that (even if mouthbreathers like Piers Morgan and DIane Feinstein aren't).

This is about govenment failing.

Correct, I agree that the government needs to do better. Like you I agree that we need better controls imposed via the government to ensure that only people that are able to be responsible with their guns should be able to get a license to have them. And the government needs to be able to require regular review (perhaps annually, but at least every few - 5. 10? - years), one should be able to demonstrate the ability and knowledge to handle a weapon and if they can't then revoke their.

Quoting flymia (Reply 42):
So sad to see the same exact situation again. VA Tech, Ft. Hood, Aurora, Newtown, and now Navy Yard. They ALL had warning signs, nothing was done, everything was ignored. If we actually want to end mass shootings in this country our mental health care system and the way doctors share information needs to be revamped. I am also for mental health checks such as just a note from an MD before purchasing a gun.

  
Better controls on background checks, better sharing of information, better controls on gun sales. Nos problem with people owning guns, none at all, but you must be able to handle them and be responsible with them.

Tugg
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flymia
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RE: Shooting At Washington Navy Yard

Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 48):
Nos problem with people owning guns, none at all, but you must be able to handle them and be responsible with them.

Agreed. I think anyone who wants a gun should be able to have one and even carry one. But I do think that their should be some more checks before purchase including medical checks.

Planes kill a lot less people a year than guns, pilots need to go through health checks, background checks etc.. Why not gun owners?

Again I am not for less guns. I think gun free zones are an absolute joke. I think CCW requirements should be more strict but allow more freedom. For a gun at home a background check and medical clearance. For a CCW recurring training along with the background and medical.

That is how we can help prevent these shootings.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)

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