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WarRI1
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No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:58 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/19/no-shut-down-government/



Who will hold the bag for shutting down the government with the American People? I feel the Republicans will, and I think the polls show it right now. A Pyrrhic Victory maybe for the Republicans?
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Tugger
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:54 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
Who will hold the bag for shutting down the government with the American People? I feel the Republicans will, and I think the polls show it right now. A Pyrrhic Victory maybe for the Republicans?

Hey man, no compromise!

That's how you get things done!

Remember the Alamo, Pearl Harbor, 9-11, Obamacare, whatever.... never retreat!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
fr8mech
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:11 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Hey man, no compromise!

Yup, that's what President Obama said.

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
I feel the Republicans will

Of course they will. The media will make sure they do.

Let's look at this, because, we have forgotten the process:

House passes a bill. In this case, CR that funds government without funding Obamacare.

The Senate passes a bill. Their version of a CR that funds the government including Obamacare.

What is supposed to happen next:

a)The President runs to the camera (with his teleprompter) and whines about the Republicans being inflexible

b)Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-AZ) runs to the media and cries about the Republicans being inflexible

c)Speaker of the House Boehner (R-OH) runs to the media and says his work is done and he is waiting on The Senate

d)Both bills go to a conference committee where differences are worked out. The new bill is kicked back for consideration and then on to the presidential pen for a yea or a nay or it dies.

What happens if the actual constitutional process is followed and bill sits on the President's desk that de-funds Obamacare, yet funds the government...or God forbid, actually yields a budget? Who is to blame then?
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Tugger
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:17 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
Yup, that's what President Obama said.

Actually, no. He has tried many times, but the entire focus is solely on attempt to get rid of the ACA. At what point does it stop? You can claim it because it has been pushed to this point over time but the compromises up to this point have been many.

Tugg
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fr8mech
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
Actually, no

"What I haven’t been willing to negotiate, and I will not negotiate, is on the debt ceiling."

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...erview-with-george-stephanopoulos/

Well, I guess you're right...he didn't use the word compromise.. But, he's unwilling to negotiate. He wants a blank check...again.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):Yup, that's what President Obama said.
Actually, no

Actually, yes.

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
but the entire focus is solely on attempt to get rid of the ACA. At what point does it stop?

When it's gone, or de-funded.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Dreadnought
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:00 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
Actually, no. He has tried many times

And every time he has "tried", it was basically on the condition that the GOP gives him everything he wants. I have no interest in a president who says he is willing to compromise to the teleprompter, but stonewalls when it's time to sit down and hammer out an agreement

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
but the entire focus is solely on attempt to get rid of the ACA.

Face it, the American people don't want Obamacare. In spite of hundreds of millions of (borderline-illegal) dollars that have been spent trying to hype it up, close to 60% of the population want Obamacare repealed completely or at least partially (even I'll admit there are a few good paragraphs in there). It's time to give it up.

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
You can claim it because it has been pushed to this point over time but the compromises up to this point have been many.

The only compromises involved with Obamacare was between the radical left-wing and the more moderate democrats. Obamacare was passed without a single GOP vote.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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Tugger
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:25 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
The only compromises involved with Obamacare was between the radical left-wing and the more moderate democrats. Obamacare was passed without a single GOP vote.

Correct and that is entirely on the GOP's head because no Republican could or would support or even work to negotiate on it. Anyone that did (and a brave few did try) were castigated and demonized by the conservative talk show hosts and others in their party. It was truly sad and drove the whole process to the left and it should not have been needed. The Republican and their media supporters caused the left movement.

Tugg
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Aesma
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:30 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
What happens if the actual constitutional process is followed and bill sits on the President's desk that de-funds Obamacare, yet funds the government...or God forbid, actually yields a budget? Who is to blame then?

It's still on the Republicans, or alternatively on the constitution they so love that allows a president from one party and a house from another party to be elected at the same time.

Obama was elected with Obamacare as a cornerstone of his platform, he passed it, and was reelected after that. Trying to get rid of it is not what the people want, obviously.
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fr8mech
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:48 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
It's still on the Republicans, or alternatively on the constitution they so love that allows a president from one party and a house from another party to be elected at the same time.

And, I would have expected no answer other than that from the left...even if a bipartisan bill was put in front of him. Even though, now that we've read it and passed it, the majority of Americans hate it.

The man is a petulant child.
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KBJCpilot
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:04 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
Obama was elected with Obamacare as a cornerstone of his platform, he passed it, and was reelected after that. Trying to get rid of it is not what the people want, obviously.

Obama was elected because the opposing party's candidate ran a terrible campaign. He pandered to the right-wingers while abandoning his own moderate leanings. The 47% video didn't help either.
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WarRI1
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:01 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Hey man, no compromise!


Absolutely, we will not compromise.



That's how you get things done!


Absolutely, we will get it done, help for the common man.




Remember the Alamo, Pearl Harbor, 9-11, Obamacare, whatever.... never retreat!

Absolutely, Iwo Jima, Tarawa, Guadalcanal, Okinawa. Do we need to send in the Marines? Army and Navy?




You may have noticed, I never do on what is good for the people. Never surrender, take no prisoners. Oh my god, I sound like the Tea Party, shoot me, shoot me.   

[Edited 2013-09-19 17:04:30]
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PHX787
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:05 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
Yup, that's what President Obama said.

THIS:

Obama is the one who wont budge. The Reps have always thrown around different ideas which Obama will not agree to.
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WarRI1
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:11 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
House passes a bill. In this case, CR that funds government without funding Obamacare.

The Senate passes a bill. Their version of a CR that funds the government including Obamacare.

Yes, that is exactly what will happen.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
b)Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-AZ) runs to the media and cries about the Republicans being inflexible

c)Speaker of the House Boehner (R-OH) runs to the media and says his work is done and he is waiting on The Senate

You are correct so far.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
What happens if the actual constitutional process is followed and bill sits on the President's desk that de-funds Obamacare, yet funds the government...or God forbid, actually yields a budget? Who is to blame then?

It will not happen, nor should it. Blame the Republicans, the party of NO.

[Edited 2013-09-19 17:19:59]
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fr8mech
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:27 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
You are correct so far

So, what you're telling me is that you'd be happy if Senate Majority Leader Reid (D-AZ) ignores the constitutional process and just sits on his hands.

Who is saying no then?
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DocLightning
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Obama is the one who wont budge.

When you try to "negotiate" by asking someone for something that you know they will not accept, whose fault is it?

The individual mandate is already going into effect. The exchanges are running. Healthcare providers and insurance companies have already started to implement new policies and procedures and even systems. It would be HORRIBLY damaging to the industry to delay it a year. It would cost an enormous amount in resources that would best be used on patient care to suddenly not just stop, but actually reverse course.

They are asking for something unrealistic and unacceptable and even the top GOP leaders have said so. And Mr. Cruz even said so today. When you ask for something unrealistic and unacceptable, it is not your opponent who is at fault.

I will point out one other thing: Mr. Obama has vowed not to negotiate, but he doesn't have to. It is clear that the Senate Democrats will not negotiate on this, either, because they know it's absurd. As one GOP aide said, the GOP can only defund ObamaCare if it passes in the Senate. If there is no plan to get it the defund passed in the Senate, and there isn't, then all the GOP has is a plan to shut down the government.

So it is not Mr. Obama who is being intransigent at all. It is the GOP who have informed the DNC that unless their demands are met, they will shut down the government. And they themselves have said so...explicitly.

So go ahead and defend them, because they agree with me.

[Edited 2013-09-19 17:45:44]
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WarRI1
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:44 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
When you try to "negotiate" by asking someone for something that you know they will not accept, whose fault is it?

The individual mandate is already going into effect. The exchanges are running. Healthcare providers and insurance companies have already started to implement new policies and procedures and even systems. It would be HORRIBLY damaging to the industry to delay it a year. It would cost an enormous amount in resources that would best be used on patient care to suddenly not just stop, but actually reverse course.

They are asking for something unrealistic and unacceptable and even the top GOP leaders have said so. When you ask for something unrealistic and unacceptable, it is not your opponent who is at fault.

I accept your Expert Opinion on this matter, who should know better? Not I. I agree 100%
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fr8mech
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:57 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
It is clear that the Senate Democrats will not negotiate on this, either, because they know it's absurd.

Then, when, and if the House, passes a CR defunding Obamacare, let's see if Senator Reid and gang pass their own CR and let it go to conference.

Let's see what the conference committee kicks out. My guess is that Senator Reid won't let it get that far because it will force vulnerable Democratic Senators to reaffirm their vote for legislation that a growing number of Americans hate.

But, it's a lose/lose for the Republicans, because the lap-dog media will provide cover for the Obama/Reid cabal.

So many people have already been booted off their insurance...with so many more to come. What was it that President Obama said back when he was pushing this monstrosity?
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einsteinboricua
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:15 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 17):
because the lap-dog media will provide cover for the Obama/Reid cabal.

No. It will be a lose/lose for Republicans because they have made it so. If Americans truly wanted the ACA gone they would have voted in more Republicans to Congress and even elect Mitt Romney. The fact that they don't like it doesn't mean they don't want it. As a kid, when you had to take medicine for the cold, did you like the flavors? No, but it doesn't mean you don't want to feel better.

If Boehner himself has accepted the ACA as the law of the land back when it was upheld, then why is he continues to allow votes to repeal it? And I'm willing to bet that if the situation were the inverse, with Democrats threatening to shut down the government due to defense/war spending, the GOP would be up in arms calling them un-patriots.

But interesting to note how a law that's actually working should be repealed period.
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ltbewr
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:22 am

Right now it is more like the WWE in the US Congress, phony fights for show to their bases to entertain us.
We have very deep issues and conflicts dividing citizens like the Grand Canyon.
We could have the USA government go into default on it's debt, which could trigger another Great Depression.
No one is really thinking about real cuts in the military, for wars or on tax deals for the rich and big corporations.
The Republicans are forgetting that voters like lower taxes but they hate cuts in government spending even more, especially as many more need government assistance (like with the cut SNAP programs). Remember what happened to the Republicans in the mid-1990's.
We have a health care system that is failing to help many millions and costs too much, the ACA was a giveaway to the insurance industry instead of really helping citizens.
I don't have any real answers, nor does the President and certainly all other politicians. I do expect some deal will be made to put off the needs for big changes, probably some delay in the individual mandates for Obamacare, keeps the military and Homeland (in)Security at full funding.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:23 am

http://cbo.gov/publication/43090


Here is the link to the real CBO report on the ACA, not the scare tactics from the reports on Fox News. Try reading it, the real source of the information.
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WarRI1
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:33 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 18):
But interesting to note how a law that's actually working should be repealed period.

And there in lies a story, the Republicans fear that most of all, that the ACA will work, and the credit once again for human based government will go to the Democrats. Horror of Horrors.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Aesma
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:59 am

Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 10):
Obama was elected because the opposing party's candidate ran a terrible campaign. He pandered to the right-wingers while abandoning his own moderate leanings. The 47% video didn't help either.

Same difference. People already don't expect much from politicians, for once one has done what he promised, why do some people expect him to go back and undo it ? I mean, I'm sure some conservative voters do think it's possible, but I'm pretty sure there aren't many GOP elected officials that believe that, they're just going along because they think it's what's needed to be reelected.
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seb146
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:38 am

The right (read: the loud mouths that control the talking points) does not want compromise. Remember? Compromise? When Reagan and O'Neill compromised? Back when everyone met in the middle? That can not happen these days. That is a sign of weakness. That is a "liberal" thing to do. Only "liberals" compromise.

What I hope happens is: the far-right gets the government shut down and gets the blame for it. And, in 2014, pays the price! I want to see a center and center-left Congress elected in 2014 so we can get something done! I am sick and tired of McConnell and Boehner being the de-facto presidents of the United States.

"Obama never gets a budget in Congress!" says the far-right. Actually, he does. But, it never gets out of committee. Read the Constitution and fact check before you start in on the smear campaign.
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EA CO AS
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:43 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
When you try to "negotiate" by asking someone for something that you know they will not accept, whose fault is it?

The very idea of negotiating is to start with your pie-in-the-sky wishes in hopes the other side will be willing to meet you somewhere less than that.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Mr. Obama has vowed not to negotiate, but he doesn't have to.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
It is clear that the Senate Democrats will not negotiate on this, either

With these two statements you've proven that it's the President's fault (and his fellow Democrats) since they're drawing a line in the sand on this. (They won't say "red line" since we all know those don't mean much to this Administration anyway)
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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seb146
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:08 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 24):
With these two statements you've proven that it's the President's fault (and his fellow Democrats) since they're drawing a line in the sand on this. (They won't say "red line" since we all know those don't mean much to this Administration anyway)

We all know Boehner is so easy to compromise with /rolls eyes

Remember his comment about "We got 99% of what we wanted" then was pissed off he didn't get 100% of what he wanted?

I would place blame 50% on Obama and 50% on Boehner.
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DocLightning
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:37 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 24):
The very idea of negotiating is to start with your pie-in-the-sky wishes in hopes the other side will be willing to meet you somewhere less than that.

So an airline should approach Boeing by proposing that Boeing pay them money to fly Boeing jets, rather than the other way around?

That's the kind of absurdity we're talking about here.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
I would place blame 50% on Obama and 50% on Boehner.

I would place 100% blame on Boehner. If he wants to defund ObamaCare and actually means it, then he needs a plan to pass it through the Senate. And he himself has said that this is a fools errand.

Why do you defend a man who has publicly admitted that he is embarking on a futile quest?
-Doc Lightning-

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PhilBy
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:39 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 24):
The very idea of negotiating is to start with your pie-in-the-sky wishes in hopes the other side will be willing to meet you somewhere less than that.
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 24):
With these two statements you've proven that it's the President's fault (and his fellow Democrats) since they're drawing a line in the sand on this.

Unfortunately when, for the sake of soundbites, they've both drawn lines in the sand (i.e. cancel Obamacare, not cancel Obamacare) and polarised the issue there's not much room for comrpomise. 'Lets modify Obamacare ' would come across to the voters as a total submission by the 'cancel' party instead of a compromise.

The world has changed since the system was put in place, reasoned debate is no longer fashionable, and no-one thought to include in the rules a solution for the playground politics that currently pervades the system.
 
fr8mech
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:55 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
It would be HORRIBLY damaging to the industry to delay it a year.

So, what you're saying is that even if there is a bad law or bad process or bad whatever, we should continue to fund it (throw good money after bad) because we have already spent the money or it may cost more to reverse or fix the process? Right? That's what you're saying?

All the more reason to dismantle it now. It will be more expensive to dismantle it in 2014 or 2016.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 21):
And there in lies a story, the Republicans fear that most of all, that the ACA will work, and the credit once again for human based government will go to the Democrats. Horror of Horrors.

You're absolutely correct. ACA will work as it's designed. It is designed to collapse under its own weight after it has rid the market of private insurers. After which, the only possible answer will be single-payer medical.

So, how many folks have been booted off their employer medical plans onto these exchanges?
How many private insurers are pulling out of select markets because of Obamacare?
How many employers have modified (reduced) their plans to provide only the minimum mandated by Obamacare?
How many employers have fired employees to get below the limit?
How many employers have reduced hours to get below the limit?

All of these 'unexpected consequences' were expected, if you read the bill. The whole goal of the thing was single-payer from the start.

Obama/Pelosi had to do an end-round to get there because they would never have sold it to the people as a single-payer. Every compromise made by Obama/Pelosi was made to bring more Democrats into the fold. The only thing bi-partisan about Obamacare was the opposition to it.
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Charles79
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:01 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
I feel the Republicans will, and I think the polls show it right now.

Yes, and rightfully so. It is frustrating to see your own government being this dysfunctional but that is what the GOP party has brought us. They made their point, voting to repeal the ACA several dozen times. Do we need more posturing, really?

As an independent voter, I can tell you that the behavior of the opposition has convinced me and many other independents to vote Democrat for the time being. Even if the government does not shut down, the damage is done; I would not be able to support the GOP simply because its leaders have proven that they are not to be trusted. If they lose control of the House in 2014, they will have the current leadership to thank for it.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:04 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
I have no interest in a president who says he is willing to compromise to the teleprompter, but stonewalls when it's time to sit down and hammer out an agreement

Yes. And whenever he says something you can be sure he will do nothing or do the opposite.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 21):
the Republicans fear that most of all, that the ACA will work

The Unions aren't too thrilled with the idea either. The administration has decided to delay implementation on soem different programs. I'd say even the inept members of Obama's team see the writing on the wall.
Obamacare as it stands is a TRAIN-WRECK!

The Republicans won't shut down the Government. They will refuse the funds to implement the Train-wreck.

  
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seb146
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:27 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 30):
The administration has decided to delay implementation on soem different programs. I'd say even the inept members of Obama's team see the writing on the wall.
Obamacare as it stands is a TRAIN-WRECK!

The Republicans won't shut down the Government. They will refuse the funds to implement the Train-wreck.

They keep saying "Repeal Obamacare and let's get something better in". Well, how about you show us what your "better idea" is before you take away our health care. We all know they got nothing. They just want private insurance to be able to charge whatever they want. How is that so much better than ACA?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
I would place 100% blame on Boehner. If he wants to defund ObamaCare and actually means it, then he needs a plan to pass it through the Senate. And he himself has said that this is a fools errand.

Why do you defend a man who has publicly admitted that he is embarking on a futile quest?

I withdraw my ration. And replace it with 80% Boehner, 19% McConnell, 1% Obama.
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DocLightning
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 24):
With these two statements you've proven that it's the President's fault

You forget the bit where Boehner, McCain, and the rest of the GOP leadership already admitted it was their fault.

So my opinion is worthless next to theirs. And I wholeheartedly agree with them.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
So, what you're saying is that even if there is a bad law or bad process or bad whatever, we should continue to fund it (throw good money after bad) because we have already spent the money or it may cost more to reverse or fix the process? Right? That's what you're saying?

Nope. I am saying that it is a GOOD law. And the reason YOU think it's a bad law is because your Fox/GOP overlords have told you so. Tell me: have you read it, or read a decent summary? No, you haven't. I have.

And to stop it would be damaging to the industry, to consumers, and...listen carefully: the funding for it is mandatory spending, anyway, so the GOP can't stop it even if the DNC were willing to go along with it.

This is the GOP throwing a tantrum. Although part of me wonders if the Tea Party isn't actually trying to bring about the fall of the USA because they hate the government so much that they are willing to permanently shut it down until it withers away.
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Type-Rated
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:04 pm

You are the first doctor I have heard saying they like Obamacare. That's a first. Most hate it.

And what gets me is that a large segment of our population thinks that Obamacare will be free. When they talk about Obamacare why don't the mention that it will cost you big time?
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PHLBOS
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:28 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
b)Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-AZ) runs to the media and cries about the Republicans being inflexible
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 13):
Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
b)Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-AZ) runs to the media and cries about the Republicans being inflexible
Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 14):
Senate Majority Leader Reid (D-AZ)

Not to nitpick here but Harry Reid's a US Senator from Nevada (NV) not Arizona (AZ).

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 19):
Remember what happened to the Republicans in the mid-1990's.

If you're referring to the last Government shutdown circa 1995-1996; the '96 Congressional and Senatorial election results that followed didn't quite match up with the media-hype pummeling that the GOP received back then regarding the gov't shutdown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...vernment_shutdown_of_1995_and_1996

Excerpt:

The Republican Party had a net loss of eight seats in the House in the 1996 elections but retained a 228-207 seat majority. In the Senate, Republicans gained two seats.
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fr8mech
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:38 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 33):
You are the first doctor I have heard saying they like Obamacare. That's a first. Most hate it.

I know:
2 Orthopedic surgeons
1 Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation Specialist (works at the VA)
1 Psychiatrist
1 Family Practitioner

and a gaggle of nurse...or would that be a murder of nurses?

Either way, none of these folks like it one bit...and the psychiatrist and his family practitioner wife are both decidedly left of center on the political spectrum.


Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 34):
Not to nitpick here but Harry Reid's a US Senator from Nevada (NV) not Arizona (AZ).

My bad. I wonder why AZ stuck in my head?
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slider
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
What is supposed to happen next:

a)The President runs to the camera (with his teleprompter) and whines about the Republicans being inflexible

b)Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-AZ) runs to the media and cries about the Republicans being inflexible

c)Speaker of the House Boehner (R-OH) runs to the media and says his work is done and he is waiting on The Senate

d)Both bills go to a conference committee where differences are worked out. The new bill is kicked back for consideration and then on to the presidential pen for a yea or a nay or it dies.

Then what will happen is:

e) Boehner will fold up like a cheap suit and crater as he always has to the Dems.
f) The constitutionally oriented subset of the republicans will continue to be pissed, driving a deeper wedge between RINOs, career oligarchs and those who want true conservativism and the internecine fighting will continue. The GOP will continue to shoot itself in the ass and then lose the next election on top of it.
g) America loses. Continues to lose.
h) Might not be much of an America worth saving after that.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
You're absolutely correct. ACA will work as it's designed. It is designed to collapse under its own weight after it has rid the market of private insurers. After which, the only possible answer will be single-payer medical.

So, how many folks have been booted off their employer medical plans onto these exchanges?
How many private insurers are pulling out of select markets because of Obamacare?
How many employers have modified (reduced) their plans to provide only the minimum mandated by Obamacare?
How many employers have fired employees to get below the limit?
How many employers have reduced hours to get below the limit?

All of these 'unexpected consequences' were expected, if you read the bill. The whole goal of the thing was single-payer from the start.

Spot on, sir. Absolutely on the money.

Obamacare has already cratered the economy, people have lost coverage, costs have gone ballistic. It's an economic wet blanket at a time when we can least afford it. It's a jobs killer when we need jobs the most.

And it was a bill horribly crafted, not even read on the floor, deemed to pass, and sold by that witch Pelosi as something we have to pass in order to find out what's in it. Thousands of new regulations, onerous costs, IRS enforcement, death panels (which has been validated), and some still insist on calling this a victory.

It's the single largest power grab by the Federal government EVER undertaken.

So yeah, the House passes a spending bill. Senate will overturn it anyhow. But if the GOP were smart--and they're not--they'd clearly and calmly go on the offensive, explaining why, how and all of it to the American people why Obamacare is awful. THEY should go on the offense and put the petulant Boy King in his place.
 
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Revelation
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Remember the Alamo

That worked out pretty well - for the Mexicans!

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 4):
He wants a blank check...again.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
And every time he has "tried", it was basically on the condition that the GOP gives him everything he wants.

A short history of how we got here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequester_%282013%29
Quote:

On August 2, 2011, President Obama signed the Budget Control Act of 2011 as part of an agreement with Congress to resolve the debt-ceiling crisis. The Act provided for a Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction (the "super committee") to produce legislation by late November that would decrease the deficit by $1.2 trillion over ten years. When the super committee failed to act,[8] another part of the BCA went into effect. This directed automatic across-the-board cuts (known as "sequestrations") split evenly between defense and domestic spending, beginning on January 2, 2013.


In particular, with regard to the "super committee" we read at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Committee#Impasse_and_failure

Quote:

The initial proposal from the Democrats on the committee offered 3 trillion in deficit reduction, including 1.3 trillion in new revenue and 400 billion in Medicare savings, but was rejected on partisan lines for the level of tax increases. The Republican Toomey plan proposed 1.2 trillion in deficit reduction, including 300 billion in new revenue, but was rejected because it lowered the top marginal tax rate from 35% to 28%.

It's pretty clear to me that Obama was not asking for a "blank check" nor that "every time" he expected to be given "everything he wants". It's pretty clear that the Dems were willing to put even more on the table for a "grand bargain" but the conservatives were not willing to negotiate on "revenue" i.e. raising taxes on the rich. So, the GOP has gotten what they wanted, the greatest amount of income disparity and wealth concentration since the early 1900s. They also continue to attack programs that prevent the rich from keeping the last penny on the dollar. They continue to make it all about the lower classes whilst the upper classes continue to rake in the cash at historically high proportions.
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IADCA
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:05 pm

Anyone want to bet against a proposition that (1) the House passes a budget without funding for the ACA,(2) the Senate passes a budget with funding for the ACA, and (3) that the House budget plus the ACA portion of the Senate budget exceeds the total of the Senate budget?
 
seb146
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:18 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
It's a jobs killer when we need jobs the most.

That's funny because jobs have been being added for months now. Not taken away.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Although part of me wonders if the Tea Party isn't actually trying to bring about the fall of the USA because they hate the government so much that they are willing to permanently shut it down until it withers away.

The government is us. We the people. So, when you say that, you are saying Tea Party hates we the people. Which is still true.
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photopilot
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:27 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 36):
death panels (which has been validated),

Would you care to provide ANY substantiation of this wildly outlandish statement. Preferably from some type of reputabele source besides Faux News!
 
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WarRI1
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:00 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 21):And there in lies a story, the Republicans fear that most of all, that the ACA will work, and the credit once again for human based government will go to the Democrats. Horror of Horrors.
You're absolutely correct. ACA will work as it's designed. It is designed to collapse under its own weight after it has rid the market of private insurers. After which, the only possible answer will be single-payer medical.

Ok, so why not give it a chance to fail? Why all this hysterical fear of the ACA? 41 votes. The definition of insanity once again." Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result" If this definition is correct, that proves the Republicans are Insane. It will surely fail once again. It takes two to Tango, the Democratically controlled Senate is not going to dance. Neither is Obama. The must and should accept, they lost the election. They are not in control.
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WarRI1
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:07 am

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 29):
As an independent voter, I can tell you that the behavior of the opposition has convinced me and many other independents to vote Democrat for the time being. Even if the government does not shut down, the damage is done; I would not be able to support the GOP simply because its leaders have proven that they are not to be trusted. If they lose control of the House in 2014, they will have the current leadership to thank for it.

I could not agree more with you, and I am also an Independent voter, having split my vote many times. Who in their right mind would vote for these clowns. When someone tells me they are going to screw with me and millions of others, I believe them. Listening to them, my teeth chatter. I know when to run in the other direction. It is good to see someone who see's through all this bull from the right.
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WarRI1
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:12 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 30):
The Republicans won't shut down the Government. They will refuse the funds to implement the Train-wreck.

When you pile the logs on the track, you cause the wreck. They will be blamed for the shutdown. John McCain said today, the Senate will not vote for the house's bill. What else is there to say?
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:21 am

Quoting IADCA (Reply 38):
Anyone want to bet against a proposition that (1) the House passes a budget without funding for the ACA,(2) the Senate passes a budget with funding for the ACA, and (3) that the House budget plus the ACA portion of the Senate budget exceeds the total of the Senate budget?

I'd put good money on that, I think that you are probably spot on.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
The initial proposal from the Democrats on the committee offered 3 trillion in deficit reduction, including 1.3 trillion in new revenue and 400 billion in Medicare savings, but was rejected on partisan lines for the level of tax increases. The Republican Toomey plan proposed 1.2 trillion in deficit reduction, including 300 billion in new revenue, but was rejected because it lowered the top marginal tax rate from 35% to 28%.

According to this, and by my math, the Democrats actually proposed more cuts after revenue raises (1.7 tn) than the Republicans (0.9 tn) - in fact the Democrat's proposal included almost double the number of savings than the Republican's proposal.

Now comes the part where I blame both parties: going off what Revelation posted, the President wanted 1.2 tn. Why couldn't they reach a bi-partisan consensus to pass the Democrat proposal without the tax rises? That would cut more than was requested, and not raise taxes which would be unpalatable for the Republicans.
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Aesma
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:37 am

Well apparently they wanted to lower taxes.
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RyanairGuru
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:52 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 45):
Well apparently they wanted to lower taxes.

In which case we're back to Republican intransigence. If a desire to lower taxes - as opposed to keep them constant, not raise them - got in the way of a seemingly common sense compromise then I'm not sure why this even a discussion...

This is more a systemic desire to not reach a "compromise" from a certain element of the political sphere, as opposed to insurmountable hurdles. We are not lacking for ideas, but rather the will to negotiate. I therefore retract what I said above for blaming both parties. When you have certain Congressmen (admittedly a minority) elected with a "no compromise" mandate, it is difficult to blame the other side when things don't get done.




[Edited 2013-09-20 21:10:12]

[Edited 2013-09-20 21:12:21]
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seb146
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:29 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 44):
the President wanted 1.2 tn

You just answered your own question. If Obama is for it, the right is against it.
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PHX787
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:20 am

Guys, I don't care how you put it, but Obamacare has got to go. It's not "affordable" at all. It's an absolute disaster waiting to happen.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: No, You Shut Down The Goverment.

Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:29 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 48):
It's not "affordable" at all.

Some states would beg to differ.
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