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DeltaMD90
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What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:05 pm

I'm really not trying to stir the pot or piss anyone off and start a thread that'll get locked after 20 replies, I'm really interested in this question. I'd love to hear from the US conservatives of this board as well as liberals that understand the alternatives (even if they disagree with those alternatives.) I'm more interested in the "Repeal Obamacare and then ______ crowd," not those that thing Obamacare is a step in the right direction but would prefer to go further. I know there are many out there and I respect your opinions, but the point of the thread is to analyze what could be done by the GOP if they did somehow repeal the ACA and if they have any real plan

I ask this because I keep hearing repeal repeal repeal, but I haven't heard of a good, detailed plan out there from the GOP. I stress that word because it makes a world of difference to me and many others. All I've heard is vague mutterings of the free market and capitalism but that tells us nothing IMO. Maybe there is some great GOP plan I've never heard about.

I think I already know the answer to my question but I'm doing all I can to keep an open mind and listen to the other side.
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Dreadnought
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:25 pm

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-file-promote-alternative-obamaca/

Quote:
The Republican Study Committee on Wednesday unveiled a 181-page alternative to the massive federal health care law passed in 2010, touting their “market-focused” reforms as a viable way to fix the nation’s broken health care system without imposing mandates and taxes on Americans.

Seven House Republicans said they are ready to push the American Health Care Reform Act through committee and accept ideas from Democrats during the legislative process, noting they were shut out from debate over the Affordable Care Act.

Not that I agree with it. I've put my proposals here before. Individual mandate for Minimum Insurance Coverage (MIC) catastrophic health and accident insurance. $2000 deductable (nobody will go broke because of $2000). Covers 90% of all hospitalization and other out-patient treatments and all FDA-approved prescription drugs. Insurance companies to be required to set a single price for all customers, existing or new, valid from age 18 and over, and another price for ages 0-17. They can set the price themselves, whether $50 per month or $1000, but they can only change prices once per year on Jan 1st. Any applicant MUST be accepted for MIC by the insurance company. If your insurance jacks up your price on Jan 1st, you may jump to another one, regardless of pre-existing conditions.

Any Insurance riders on top of that will be free-market based. You want a lower deductable, private room, dental care, mental health? That will be extra, and the insurance company is free to do whatever it likes in terms of pricing etc. Many Insurance companies will likely offer a very low, attractive price for MIC, in the hopes they can upsell you with policy upgrades. But whether you accept them is completely up to you.

I think such a system would easily result in insurance rates of well under $100 per month. If you want more, you can get it, but it's up to you.

And finally - The complete dismantlement of Medicare and Medicaid at a federal level. If individual states want to help their poor with their MIC payments, leave that up to them.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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Aesma
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:49 pm

181 pages, to be sure nobody will read it either 

To give you an idea, health care spending in the US at the moment is at more than 8000$ per inhabitant per year. So I doubt 100$/month for good coverage can work.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:51 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):

I will have to look at that when I have more time. I should have added in my original post is "if they have indeed come up with something detailed, why do we never hear of it, and why aren't the GOP politicians saying 'Repeal Obamacare and replace it with ______' ?"

If they have a great idea no one has really heard of, I don't blame that on "the liberal MSM" I blame it on the GOP for not putting forth their ideas better.

Like I said, I'll look at it later, but if it was such a good alternative (or even halfway decent) I think the GOP would be toting it around

Edit: Is your idea similar to Switzerland's? I know you used to live there. Also, call me crazy, but I think if you had put your plan before Congress before anyone even heard of the ACA, you'd be called a liberal socialist  Wink

[Edited 2013-10-10 13:56:19]
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Dreadnought
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 2):
To give you an idea, health care spending in the US at the moment is at more than 8000$ per inhabitant per year. So I doubt 100$/month for good coverage can work.

It can if it is limited. Mend your broken bones, treat your cancer, cure your pneumonia. But having going to the doc for a cold, or remove a wart - sorry, I don't consider that essential health care requiring a national law. That's up to you.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Edit: Is your idea similar to Switzerland's? I know you used to live there.

It is very similar, but I've simplified it even more, like the flat deductible. Make it simple and easy to understand, and people will buy into it. Obamacare biggest problems are that A) it includes too much (like dental), 2) it requires insurance companies to continue to be involved with small transactions - which increases administrative costs for the doctor and for the insurance company, and 3) nobody can understand it. Even an Ace Attorney would have a difficult time truly understanding a 2000+ page law and tens of thousands of pages of regulations. Simplify it!
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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Aesma
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:11 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
It can if it is limited. Mend your broken bones, treat your cancer, cure your pneumonia. But having going to the doc for a cold, or remove a wart - sorry, I don't consider that essential health care requiring a national law. That's up to you.

What you consider non essential is not what costs much anyway (except dental surgery maybe).

To give you another idea my parents pay 100€/month each for a mutuality insurance, and that's only for non essential stuff, because the national system pays very little for glasses, complicated dental stuff, etc. With that investment my parents get better reimbursements plus things like single room at the hospital. But the cancer treatment or the operating room equipment and staff are not paid with that, nor their family doctor, or specialists. I mention my parents because as state employees their employer doesn't help to pay that complimentary insurance, unlike many private employers.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:00 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Even an Ace Attorney would have a difficult time truly understanding a 2000+ page law and tens of thousands of pages of regulations. Simplify it!

Generally laws become complex because the people working on it narrow it's scope to exempt things that they want or cover things that they want so that everyone that had a hand in the law gets that one thing that they want in order for it to pass. Simple bills never pass.
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DocLightning
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:08 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
(nobody will go broke because of $2000).

Wow, you really are out of touch with the masses.

MOST of the people I work with every day would find a $2000 bill to be catastrophic to their finances. In this current economic climate of stagnant wages with rising cost of living, $2000 is a lot more...and a lot less than it used to be.

The ACA is a very good idea, for the most part, especially on the patient side. It's a CONSERVATIVE law. It was basically designed by Congressional Republicans in the 1990's and Governor Mitt Romney.

And the ONLY reason you oppose it is because Mr. Obama likes it. If a GOP President had gotten an identical law passed, you would be cheering it.
-Doc Lightning-

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seb146
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:09 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
I keep hearing repeal repeal repeal, but I haven't heard of a good, detailed plan out there from the GOP.

I want to hear it too. I don't think any sane person would disagree to compromise. That is great. That is what this country is about: Everyone giving up a little something so everyone wins.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
nobody will go broke because of $2000

Really? When a person can not even afford to pay rent because their good paying job was shipped overseas so they had to get a Wal-Mart or McDonalds job. That's what you are saying.
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Ken777
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:45 am

I consider a conservative/capitalist position would first be to get the exploding costs of employer nanny care off of their P&L. We certainly don't need health insurance costs to be included in the products we buy - it is simply an ignorant approach to health care.

Some people consider me a "liberal" because I want to end employer nanny care and deliver a Medicare for all to cover core health care in the country. I consider that a conservative position because I've seen companies operate in other countries without that burden.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
$2000 deductable (nobody will go broke because of $2000).

Right. Except for those good folks out of a job because of the GReat Recession, shrinking buying power of minimum wage, etc.

But it's good to see you doing well enough not to be worried about a $2,000 medical bill.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Insurance companies to be required to set a single price for all customers, existing or new, v

If you look at MediGap policies on the internet you will see that there are various options available at various prices. One size does not fit all, especially at the lower economic range.


Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
it includes too much (like dental),

Nothing wrong with dental. My Aussie policy (that was a fifth the price of my US policy) included dental when the US policy didn't.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
nobody can understand it.

People can understand Medicare Gap policies - no reason to believe that they can't understand the ACA.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Simplify it!

With Medicare for All and no dead albatross around the employer's neck.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
MOST of the people I work with every day would find a $2000 bill to be catastrophic to their finances. In this current economic climate of stagnant wages with rising cost of living, $2000 is a lot more...and a lot less than it used to be.

Ain't that the truth!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:05 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Wow, you really are out of touch with the masses.

MOST of the people I work with every day would find a $2000 bill to be catastrophic to their finances.

Here's the choice. The numbers are illustrative, but you should get the idea.

A) $75 per month insurance premium, and a $2000 deductible

B) $150 per month premium, and a $500 deductible

C) $250 premium, and no deductible.

You cannot have no deductible and a $75 premium. You may bounce up and down in rage and say that is not fair, but in reality, it IS fair. You can't expect the insurance company to take all the risk and not cover that risk with premiums.

You want lower deductibles, fine. But don't bitch at the premiums (and I know you will).

As for $2000, if you get out of the hospital, after the insurance paid the vast bulk of your expenses, I would think that you would be happy to beg or borrow $2000 from someone, or negotiate a payment schedule with the hospital. As I said, nobody will go to bankruptcy court for $2000. Hell, I've seen college students with no job and no credit get a credit card with such a limit.
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seb146
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:11 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
C) $250 premium, and no deductible.

People who are now faced with minimum $2000 premium and $5000 deductible and death panels and extra cost for Medicare D would gladly go with your plan C! But, your plan C is not "republican" enough.
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Dreadnought
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:14 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
Some people consider me a "liberal" because I want to end employer nanny care and deliver a Medicare for all to cover core health care in the country.

Then why do you support Obamacare, which is pushing for more employer nannycare? At the same time they have the individual mandate. The law is schizophrenic.

And by the way, I agree with you that employee health care should not be the responsibility of an employer.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
Nothing wrong with dental.

Nothing wrong with it. But if your teeth fall out, you can still live. There is a big difference between using a legal mandate to ensure that nobody dies in the streets because they can't afford a doctor, and using it for stuff that is nice to have, but you can live without.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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Aesma
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:23 am

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 6):
Generally laws become complex because the people working on it narrow it's scope to exempt things that they want or cover things that they want so that everyone that had a hand in the law gets that one thing that they want in order for it to pass. Simple bills never pass.

And don't forget that lobbyists hand pages of customized laws to the politicians in their pockets to just pass.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
We certainly don't need health insurance costs to be included in the products we buy - it is simply an ignorant approach to health care.

Actually I think you do, but it should be a consumer tax. That way it doesn't impact exports, and imported goods pay into the system too, making local production less at a disadvantage.
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ltbewr
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:38 am

I would have liked to see a system like Australia and a number of other countries have, one where you can buy into a government run 'Medicare' program where one pays a premium based on a fixed percentage deduction from their income and those of higher incomes can buy a supplemental policy in the private market with more options as to doctors and ranges of services.
My suggested plan would also include:
A ban or very strict limits on drug, hospital, medical product and services marketing, ending the waste of billions of dollars taxpayers and consumers have to pay for.
Cap or otherwise limit the compensation lawyers get from winning lawsuits or settlements for their clients. Mandate a formula of compensation values for medical malpractice, bad drugs and so on.
Subsidize the costs of becoming a doctor so they don't end up with massive debts and the need for higher incomes to repay them.
Create subsidized 'prompt care' clinics open 24/7 or with extended hours, adjacent to hospitals or in communities, to cover non-emergency care instead of people having to go to very expensive emergency rooms.
Find ways to incentivize healthier living and discourage unhealthy lifestyles. That could mean taxes on 'junk' foods, limits on marketing of bad foods, subsidies to encourage good foods and exercise.
Reduce the violence from guns and other weapons, domestic violence, with their huge costs.
Improvement of community and government health departments to improve access to health care services, gathering information to look for short and long term health issues and deal with them, strong enforcement of food and related health safety.
Decriminalize and limited legalization of pot, some tightening up of laws to discourage the misuse and abuse of alcohol and other drugs. Encourage more 'drug courts' that get those using illegal hard drugs into rehab, not jail.
A major rethink on how we deal with mental/psychological health issues, instead of just giving pills that just make the drug companies rich but have terrible side effects or limited benefits.
 
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casinterest
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:19 pm

I don't think we need an alternate to Affordable Care. We all need Affordable care.

The currently laws and those implemented by the ACA need tweaking to solve some very big issues.

1. Price Transparency-- How many folks know going into the doctor's office how much their services will cost? How much the Doctor charges? How much insurance will cover? How much of a discount the insurance company has on the doctor's prices? I think their needs to be a list in hospitals offices of their top 25 - top 50 procedures, and how much they charge, with a comparison to the insurance companies.

2. Eliminate state restrictions on insurance companies. Blue Cross and Blue Shield of NC and Horizon Blue Cross and Blue Shield of NJ are different companies with different plans. We need to eliminate these differences. There is too much paper pushing at this level.

3. Cover plans of care and not individual visits. If the doctor screws up, they shouldn't get to charge you three times for the same cause that they didn't fix.

4. More over the counter remedies for items such as ear infections, and antibiotics. or at least make it so your CVS pharmacist can look at you and advise it, or if it is something real bad ,direct you to the hospital.

5. Better databases that require less staffing in doctor's office. It is a bad thing when there are more admins than their are doctors in a practice.
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Osubuckeyes
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:24 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
Eliminate state restrictions on insurance companies. Blue Cross and Blue Shield of NC and Horizon Blue Cross and Blue Shield of NJ are different companies with different plans. We need to eliminate these differences. There is too much paper pushing at this level.

I would argue that these restrictions were some of the driving forces that ran up healthcare costs before ACA. If they are eliminated I think the ACA just becomes a more attractive and affordable option. The whole concept of the exchanges is to promote competition in offering healthcare, but if you restrict who can offer it or how they can offer it the cost of business goes up sometimes to the point where a business will leave the marketplace. Hence why some insurance companies only choose to operate in certain states.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
More over the counter remedies for items such as ear infections, and antibiotics. or at least make it so your CVS pharmacist can look at you and advise it, or if it is something real bad ,direct you to the hospital.

The biggest problem I see is that many people go to their doctor or hospital for things like this, which drives up wait times and costs etc... Urgent care, or even a new "Non-Urgent" care would be a starting point for this where they would offer these types of things over the counter.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
Price Transparency

I agree with this, but generally speaking I feel like most people don't know how they are paying for service before they are presented with the option on arrival. Basically what I am getting at is that a ton of people in this country shop for products and service by impulse buying. Obviously you cannot really do that with healthcare, but I think this ties into the insurance company restrictions. Price transparency can be a product of a competitive state marketplace (exchange).
 
PHX787
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:05 pm

My ideas: I'm not good at this type of stuff but it's sure as hell better than ACA:

Have medicare reformed so it's a need-based only system. Any abuses result in arrest and prosecution. Thorough examinations determine if people over a certain income level who aren't currently insured are eligible, and these examinations would have a lot of leniency.

Have a regulatory board established to oversee the private industry to make sure price-gouging doesn't exist. A law should be passed prohibiting the pre-existing conditions of a patient from affecting the service.

No medical device tax.

Private hospitals should be subject to legislation separate from public hospitals, as to not infringe on First Amendment rights to religious freedom.

All hospitals and doctors must MEET healthcare standard levels set by a team of 15 doctors, at least 5 from Mayo clinic, 3 from the Houston center, and the rest from around the country. Hospitals will nominate the advisory panel and will be voted on in Congress. This vote will be highly watched as to avoid favoritism. These doctors will be rotated in and out in groups of 5 every year, serving a 3-year seat.

No mandate. If you are healthy and don't need insurance, then you're not required to sign up. However, a good portion of spending will be on advertising encouraging people to be insured.

And this would be one small proposal that would borderline throwing me off the Libertarian train: Have the government establish a company in which the government has a 48% stock share in, and regulated by aforementioned 15-member panel. This will be an insurance company funded completely by payers, and it's an emergency safety net company for those who do not have insurance but suddenly need it. They are only allowed to be on this system's plan for 1 year, and can request a 6 month extension, afterwards they need to find their own insurance or apply for medicare, if they qualify.

What y'all think?
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Ken777
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
You want lower deductibles, fine. But don't bitch at the premiums (and I know you will).

I don't bitch about those premiums - they are lower than my Medicare and Medicare Gap combined.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
A) $75 per month insurance premium, and a $2000 deductible

B) $150 per month premium, and a $500 deductible

C) $250 premium, and no deductible.

Deductibles are only one part of the cost equation - the real killer can be the do-pays. If you have a common rate, like 20% and get hit with an expensive medical problem the deductible can be trivial. My wife's 18 months of treatment for acute leukemia (ALL) was based on a pretty successful protocol out of Stanford included around 100 days in the hospital, transfusion of blood and a bill that exceeded $500,000. We had two policies (one was a cancer policy) and both worked really hard to avoid payment - thus a trial lawyer was needed to clean up the mess they left us in.

Sadly, the older you get the more expensive your medical needs become. Inflation is a killer for older people as it wipes out the "nest egg" they worked hard to build.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Then why do you support Obamacare, which is pushing for more employer nannycare? At the same time they have the individual mandate.

ObamaCare is a step in the right direction because the mandate helps reduce cost shifting and gets people into the Doctor's office before a problem gets too bad.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
But if your teeth fall out, you can still live.

Think about how close your top teeth are to your brain. Am infection not treated with antibiotics and a root canal treatment can easily blow through the sinus into the brain. Other problems can hit all over the body. Patrick Swayze had an abscess when he was a starving actor and couldn't afford to go to the dentist. The infection ended up in his knee and almost resulted in an amputation.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Actually I think you do, but it should be a consumer tax.

my preference is a tax for both individuals and companies. That way costs are lowered in a bad year when they need to be lower, and increase when times are better. That type of approach supports the economic environment better than a consumer tax.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 14):

I would have liked to see a system like Australia and a number of other countries have, one where you can buy into a government run 'Medicare' program where one pays a premium based on a fixed percentage deduction from their income and those of higher incomes can buy a supplemental policy in the private market with more options as to doctors and ranges of services.

Australia has mandatory Medicare and that eliminates cost shifting totally. It also makes ti very profitable for private insurance companies - so profitable that the government set up a private insurance company to compete in the market.

Amazing. Employers not burdened with nanny care costs, private insurance companies making a lot of money, everyone having access to a doctor at a minimal (or zero) costs. Lots of good stuff there.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 14):
A ban or very strict limits on drug, hospital, medical product and services marketing, ending the waste of billions of dollars taxpayers and consumers have to pay for.

Sadly the USSC would knock that down based on Freedom of Speech.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 14):
Cap or otherwise limit the compensation lawyers get from winning lawsuits or settlements for their clients.

There are sufficient laws protecting the medical community in states like Texas, with no noticeable savings. Lawsuits do not dramatically increase the costs of health care - not near the level that health insurance profits do. But legal actions can push the profession to clean up their act from time to time. It also

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 14):
Mandate a formula of compensation values for medical malpractice, bad drugs and so on.

The problem is how to address various costs, and how long they will last. It's cheaper in the middle of the country.
There is also a need to have a variation based on age, or life expectancy

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 14):
Subsidize the costs of becoming a doctor so they don't end up with massive debts and the need for higher incomes to repay them

Might be best to write off costs for primary care physicians - an encouragement to motivate doctors to work in that area.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 14):
Find ways to incentivize healthier living and discourage unhealthy lifestyles.

Like a tax on sugar drinks and fast foods. It would only reduce consumption a small amount, but would provide to treat patients as well as increase funding to school PE program - much needed

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 14):
Reduce the violence from guns and other weapons, domestic violence, with their huge costs.

Not possible, we are the US of the NRA and our politicians do what we are told

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 14):
Decriminalize and limited legalization of pot,

Which is only going to increase costs in other areas. Like increased head & neck cancers in young people.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
How many folks know going into the doctor's office how much their services will cost?

I know my costs: zero. But then I pay for a MediGap policy that protects me.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
I think their needs to be a list in hospitals offices of their top 25 - top 50 procedures, and how much they charge, with a comparison to the insurance companies.

That gets hospitals fighting to cut costs - reduce the nurse count (increasing the number of patients a nurse takes care of), lower the number of days you get for various conditions, shift to a non-private room (or ward), etc.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
Eliminate state restrictions on insurance companies.

That works as long as you nave a national bad faith law. Right now some states do not have a bad faith law, leaving the consumer totally shafted.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
Cover plans of care and not individual visits. If the doctor screws up, they shouldn't get to charge you three times for the same cause that they didn't fix.

That keeps people with limited income away from the doctor - not desired. It also depends on what medical condition the patient has and how they actually need to be monitored.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
More over the counter remedies for items such as ear infections, and antibiotics. or at least make it so your CVS pharmacist can look at you and advise it, or if it is something real bad ,direct you to the hospital.

There are a lot of conditions that a nurse practitioner, a physicians assistant or a pharmacist can advise on. In terms of drug interactions I would put the pharmacist at the top of the list. In terms of knowledge of medical conditions and differential diagnosis you need to see a good doctor IMO.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:34 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Thread starter):
I ask this because I keep hearing repeal repeal repeal, but I haven't heard of a good, detailed plan out there from the GOP.

That's because they haven't put anything out with any substance. That's coming from a conservative too.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Mend your broken bones, treat your cancer, cure your pneumonia. But having going to the doc for a cold, or remove a wart - sorry, I don't consider that essential health care requiring a national law. That's up to you.

I probably would have agreed with you up until a couple months ago. I was coughing uncontrollably and having trouble breathing. I went to the doctor hoping to just get some stronger cough medicine, but they couldn't figure it out. When they heard I was having trouble breathing they made me get x-rays and were concerned I may have a tumor in my lung. Turned out to be nothing serious. Now because I have a good health plan there was no serious charges. But if I had a 2000 dollar deductible I would have been screwed. It would take a lot of time for me to gain that kind of cash to pay for my expenses for my "cold."

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
And the ONLY reason you oppose it is because Mr. Obama likes it. If a GOP President had gotten an identical law passed, you would be cheering it.

I don't have a problem with the ACA because of Obama. I have a problem with it because of people like Nancy Pelosi who say we should pass it and then learn about it. A bill the politicians are voting on should be understood before they decide it should be passed. Especially a bill the size of the ACA. My frustration is with the blinders Congress put on, not Obama.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
nobody will go broke because of $2000

Absolutely disagree with you there. By the time my bills are paid and I get groceries I'm lucky to have enough left over to buy a candy bar.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 9):
We certainly don't need health insurance costs to be included in the products we buy - it is simply an ignorant approach to health care.

It's a cost of doing business.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
No medical device tax.

Couldn't agree more. I can not for the life of me figure out why we pass a bill that is supposed to control costs, and then throw a tax on top to increase those costs. This is hurting the people the bill is supposed to help.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 14):
Subsidize the costs of becoming a doctor so they don't end up with massive debts and the need for higher incomes to repay them.

Why not subsidize my costs for becoming a pilot then? My buddy goes to medical school and his costs for schooling is going to be a couple grand less than what mine are. That is an education issue, not a healthcare one. Doctor pay is not an issue. Even if you subsidize their schooling they should still be able to demand the rates they do because they earned them.

There is no alternative to the ACA, period. It is here and the GOP need to suck it up and move on. They are only shooting themselves in the foot by continuing to make this a big deal. Yeah there are elements that are not desirable. Then fix those problems. Don't burn the bill because you lost. I'm a conservative, but I can accept when there is something I'm not the largest supporter of being implemented. It passed and we have to move on. If it is so bad then tweak it.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
johnboy
Posts: 2557
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 9:09 pm

RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:16 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
That gets hospitals fighting to cut costs - reduce the nurse count (increasing the number of patients a nurse takes care of)

Speaking as a nurse, you lost me right there.
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 12:53 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):
I have a problem with it because of people like Nancy Pelosi who say we should pass it and then learn about it. A bill the politicians are voting on should be understood before they decide it should be passed.

Pelosi's quote was taken horribly out of context through death by soundbite. What Pelosi meant is that Senate would have to pass its bill to get something substantive out so that the rumors and outright lies being told about what would ultimately be in the legislation - abortion, death panels, etc., could be debunked.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...rk/2012/06/20/gJQAqch6qV_blog.html

As it points out, the quote that came immediately before Pelosi's infamous comment is what provides the context:

"You’ve heard about the controversies within the bill, the process about the bill, one or the other. But I don’t know if you have heard that it is legislation for the future, not just about health care for America, but about a healthier America, where preventive care is not something that you have to pay a deductible for or out of pocket. Prevention, prevention, prevention—it’s about diet, not diabetes. It’s going to be very, very exciting."
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
seb146
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:29 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
I don't think we need an alternate to Affordable Care. We all need Affordable care.

Why not both? I don't have a problem with private health care. As long as working people can afford health care as well. With the privatized system only, the rich can afford health care and the working class just better pray they don't get sick. If they do, they get the death panel.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:47 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
As long as working people can afford health care as well. With the privatized system only, the rich can afford health care and the working class just better pray they don't get sick. If they do, they get the death panel.

I don't know why you feel the need to exaggerate, but the rich are hardly the only ones who can afford health care. This isn't class warfare here. The rich may have these amazing plans that cover anything. But it doesn't mean middle class America can't afford any form of insurance. Grew up with a single mother with a normal middle class job in a high cost of living part of the country. Yet I still had health insurance my entire life. It isn't hard to find an employer that gives you the option of healthcare coverage either. I work part time at UPS, I can get health coverage if I wasn't still under my mother's.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:13 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):
I don't have a problem with the ACA because of Obama. I have a problem with it because of people like Nancy Pelosi who say we should pass it and then learn about it.

I agree completely. I believe that a terrible job has been done toward educating people about this law, before and even now after it has passed. Even today people who support and don't support the law have little idea on what they are supporting or disagreeing with, it does the public no good whatsoever.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
seb146
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:14 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 23):
I don't know why you feel the need to exaggerate

Because working people today have to pay thousands a month and have a huge deductible and pay out of pocket for prescriptions. The wealthy don't give any of that a second thought. Private insurance keeps raising premiums and cutting deductibles for us working folk. It is not an exaggeration. It is reality.
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WarRI1
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:31 am

I do think it is well past time to have affordable healthcare here. The ACA fills a need, which has been stopped for too many years here by special interests. As Adlai Stevenson once said to the Russians at the UN. " I am prepared to watch hell freeze over" I can honestly say, that I am prepared to watch hell freeze over before the Republicans offer an affordable health plan for the US. Dispute that!
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:51 am

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 24):
I believe that a terrible job has been done toward educating people about this law, before and even now after it has passed.

I've said it in other threads, but I will say it again. I might think that this is the best piece of legislation passed since the Civil Rights Act. But I don't because I hardly know anything about it! The Department of Health and Human Services or whoever is in charge of implementing the bill should have already pushed out as much information as humanly possible. But you don't hear anything about it besides the fact October 1st was the first day. I didn't even know that's when it kicked in! The unknown is the biggest fear with this bill and it is what is hurting it. Had the people been informed about it, we may have more people writing to their congresspeople and telling them to pound sand and pass a budget. But we still have a part of the population that wants to see it gone because they don't know what to expect.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
Because working people today have to pay thousands a month and have a huge deductible and pay out of pocket for prescriptions. The wealthy don't give any of that a second thought. Private insurance keeps raising premiums and cutting deductibles for us working folk. It is not an exaggeration. It is reality.

Of course the wealthy don't give it a single thought, they just pay for it. But what does that have to do with the working class not being able to afford it? I may just be able to buy a Corolla, but my rich roommate can go out and buy a Mercedes, but I still have a car. Same with healthcare, yeah rich people are going to have these top tier plans. But it doesn't mean the average person can't get coverage that works just fine. Not every situation is the evil rich vs the poor middle class.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
seb146
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:53 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
I am prepared to watch hell freeze over before the Republicans offer an affordable health plan for the US.

I know there are reasonable Republicans in the ranks who want to give business what they want and give the American people what they want. Even if I disagree with them, they are willing to work with everyone involved. Susan Collins, John McCain, Olympia Snowe (no longer Senator but still...) Bob Dole (no longer Senator).... That was when the United States was great. Even Linday Garahm before he bought into the crazy.
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Ken777
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 4:28 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):
I don't have a problem with the ACA because of Obama. I have a problem with it because of people like Nancy Pelosi who say we should pass it and then learn about it.

There were ongoing negotiations on the bill and, like other bills on different issues, were subject to last minute changes to get that last (and very needed) vote.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):
A bill the politicians are voting on should be understood before they decide it should be passed.

The ACA was understood by politicians in both parties. While there may have been the potential for a last minute change on a minor issue that bill was well known.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):
Especially a bill the size of the ACA.

The size is an odd thing when it comes to laws. There is a need for bills to address previous laws and regulations, sometimes changing only one word, but still necessary.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):
It's a cost of doing business.

And that cost might be one of the major reasons why a lot of production has moved overseas.

Other countries seem to be more competitive when it comes to controlling production costs like nanny care.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):
Couldn't agree more.

The consumer is pretty well protected when it comes to that small tax. DME/s have previously had a free ride on a lot of their charges and the ACA has brought that down through competitive pricing for medical equipment. Those reductions more than cover the tax that will be paid and, in effect, will reduce the costs of providing equipment that is paid for by the government. Start with Medicare and the VA.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):
This is hurting the people the bill is supposed to help.

It would be hurting people if it was not more than offset with new competitive pricing standards. The DME I had previously used for supplies has sold out to a company that is large enough to be competitive. The old company was run on a higher margin basis and the owners decided to take the money instead of competing.
 
LittleFokker
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:47 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Nothing wrong with it. But if your teeth fall out, you can still live.

You would be amazed at how much one's overall health is connected to proper oral health. Dental care is every bit as important as the rest of your body.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):
I probably would have agreed with you up until a couple months ago. I was coughing uncontrollably and having trouble breathing. I went to the doctor hoping to just get some stronger cough medicine, but they couldn't figure it out. When they heard I was having trouble breathing they made me get x-rays and were concerned I may have a tumor in my lung.

Health care is fickle - you may think you're fine, but you'll never know when you'll need it.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):
I have a problem with it because of people like Nancy Pelosi who say we should pass it and then learn about it. A bill the politicians are voting on should be understood before they decide it should be passed.

If I am correctly recalling, wasn't ACA negotiated back and forth between Congress and the Senate for a good 6 months before the final draft was voted on and approved? I don't know how it's possible to have such debate about the details if "people voted on it without reading it." Perhaps they may not have read every word of all 1,800 pages, but surely they at least read the executive summary, then had one or more of their staffers go through it to see if anything was important to them. Especially since this was going to be a high profile bill that would impact almost everyone in the country. It's pretty downright ignorant to claim that Congress voted on it without reading it.

As a side note, all this nonsense I hear from the Republicans about Obama needing to compromise on ACA is hogwash - the time for compromise was when this law was being crafted and edited, not after it's been passed by both houses, signed by the President, and upheld by the Supreme Court.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
Have medicare reformed so it's a need-based only system.

That's a pretty silly idea. Preventing health care from being needed is much cheaper in the long run than just fixing needs as the come up. Besides, where would you draw the line on what is a need?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
Private hospitals should be subject to legislation separate from public hospitals, as to not infringe on First Amendment rights to religious freedom.

That's a gigantic can of worms that you're opening up. That would mean religious affiliated hospitals cannot accept emergency patients, because it wouldn't be fair to someone who is too incapacitated to make a decision on which hospital to go to be forced geographically to go to one that didn't meet the medical standards of public hospitals. Remember, freedom of religion also means freedom from religion if one chooses to be that way. If religions want to run a hospital, then that hospital needs to be held to the same accountability standards of all hospitals. Otherwise, why bother? Just let them hold snakes in churches, hope that leads to a miracle cure, and call that "medicine."



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
And by the way, I agree with you that employee health care should not be the responsibility of an employer.

Dreadnought, I don't get you. You're supporting everyone buying their own insurance individually (way more expensive than doing it through a group plan), but you're against being mandated to do it (which would mean more individuals without insurance, which means that your insurance will be even higher to cover the costs of those who can't afford their healthcare). So you would prefer to pay as high as premiums as possible to keep subsidizing everyone else, while at the same time doing nothing to lower costs (eliminating insurance and going to single payer would do a lot for lowering costs). Do you realize how silly that sounds?
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
Private hospitals should be subject to legislation separate from public hospitals, as to not infringe on First Amendment rights to religious freedom.

Legislation on PRIVATE hospitals? Socialism!!!

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
No mandate. If you are healthy and don't need insurance, then you're not required to sign up.

You're healthy today. What about tomorrow? It's like car insurance. You don't know when an accident might happen.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
I know there are reasonable Republicans in the ranks who want to give business what they want and give the American people what they want.

That's an endangered species.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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par13del
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:42 pm

My biggest question, what is there in all the health care debate geared towards addressing the high cost of health care, most of what is being debated is about paying existing cost, how about:
1. Can anything be done to reduce cost of training for doctors, nurses, health care professionals. Must each hospital do their own, can a number of hospitals get together greater than if owned by one medical entity, heaven forbid, say government training?

2. Can anything be done to reduce the high cost of drug development, I put this second because if the cost of living for persons training for the profession can be lowered, their salary and benefit demands will be lower.

Where do cost actually start, at the people doing the work or the investors in need of returns?
Simply putting funding in place to ensure more persons can pay for the care is not a long term solution.
 
seb146
Posts: 13928
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 31):
That's an endangered species.

Unfortunately, yes.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
Have medicare reformed so it's a need-based only system

Why? Medicare is fine the way it is. ACA addresses private insurance.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
If you are healthy and don't need insurance, then you're not required to sign up.

I am a good driver, so I don't need auto insurance.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
a good portion of spending will be on advertising encouraging people to be insured.

Just like a good portion of Medicare D is spent on drug advertising? How's that working out for you?
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Dreadnought
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 30):
Dreadnought, I don't get you. You're supporting everyone buying their own insurance individually (way more expensive than doing it through a group plan), but you're against being mandated to do it

You did not read my position. I do support an individual mandate (one with teeth in it, so that it is not cheaper to pay the fine, as it is under Obamacare).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
I've put my proposals here before. Individual mandate for Minimum Insurance Coverage (MIC) catastrophic health and accident insurance.

What I don't agree with is that the mandated insurance should be of the "Kitchen Sink" variety. To keep costs down and maximize choice, the mandate should be for catastrophic illnesses and accidents, and not cover things like dental, sex change operations and other things that you can live without. Just like the basis for Social Security - nobody was ever intended to depend on that for their entire financial well-being - it was intended as bare-minimum sustenance to ensure that the elderly weren't starving in the streets, but could afford food a roof over their heads - that's it. Minimal coverage is morally the only extent that government should provide for people. If you want more coverage, that should be your choice, just as it is your choice to fund an IRA or 401k.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 30):
You would be amazed at how much one's overall health is connected to proper oral health. Dental care is every bit as important as the rest of your body.


But it is not critical.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:12 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 14):
I would have liked to see a system like Australia

I have nothing constructive to add about the alternative to ACA, but of the several countries that I've lived in I think that Australia has the best system.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
Ken777
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:42 am

Quoting johnboy (Reply 20):
Speaking as a nurse, you lost me right there.

Reread what I wrote and you can see that I was making comments on what hospitals would do to make their numbers look good IF they had to compete by posting prices for various care.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
Why not both? I don't have a problem with private health care. As long as working people can afford health care as well.

If we shift core care for all to a tax funding we take those costs out of the private insurance industry. That allows for dramatic reductions in the costs of private insurance. If Australia is any indication it would be an 80% reduction.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 23):
I work part time at UPS, I can get health coverage if I wasn't still under my mother's.

IIRC. UPS is a union company and your health care insurance is based on union negotiations. Actually, union negotiations have had a huge impact on the availability of private insurance paid for by employers - even in non-union companies.

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 24):
Even today people who support and don't support the law have little idea on what they are supporting or disagreeing with, it does the public no good whatsoever.

Same with other laws, like the tax free ride on IRAs and 401K's. How many people read THOSE laws? How many people even know how many pages they are?  
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
and not cover things like dental, sex change operations and other things that you can live without.

Dental & sex change operations are two very different things. Again, look at how close the top of your upper teeth are to your brain - major infections ABOVE those teeth are a real health risk.

As for "other things that you can live without", that's an attitude that has ensured that the US fails to be at the top of outcomes. Makes up equal to countries like Cuba in areas like Child Mortality. I guess that is something we can "live without".

Personally I believe that we should let doctors be doctors and keep politicians out if it. If a treatment is medically indicated then it is. IMO, inappropriate for politicians to decide the patient can live without it. That type thinking left women having to have a mastectomy as an outpatient procedure. That's an amputation, but the male conservatives felt they knew better. Finally they were embarrassed enough to reverse that decision, but they gave th insurance companies a year's delay in improving standards. Pathetic.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
Just like the basis for Social Security - nobody was ever intended to depend on that for their entire financial well-being - it was intended as bare-minimum sustenance to ensure that the elderly weren't starving in the streets, but could afford food a roof over their heads - that's it.

For many people Social Security IS what provides for their financial survival. Many of these people did all the right things, but their job was moved overseas (or lost in the Banana Republican's Great Recession). They paid way too much for their health insurance (obviously as this is the US) and a big medical bill took his savings.

Middle class in America is very vulnerable to deteriorations of their financial position through no fault of their own. Too many people totally depend on Social Security because of the vulnerability of the Middle Class.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
If you want more coverage, that should be your choice, just as it is your choice to fund an IRA or 401k.



You have to be kidding! You might be financially able to put money into that tax free ride of your IRA or 401K, but many people cannot. Not any more. Actually, the country can no longer afford that tax free ride you have with your retirement plans, OR any cafeteria program you might have. Time for you to pay the taxes on the contributions. Maybe let you generate income tax free, but we can no longer afford your free rides with the deficit so high.
 
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pu
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:19 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):

But having going to the doc for a cold, or remove a wart - sorry, I don't consider that essential health care requiring a national law.

While it is ideologically appealing to the Right to imagine that doctors treating warts and colds for those dreadful inner-city uninsured (or suburban overinsured) is a big driver of the US healthcare crisis, reality is nowhere near this fantasy and likewise nothing will be solved by getting tough on wart and cold sufferers.

The egregious problem with US healthcare is the massive and hugely profitable medical-industrial complex built around the elderly. Let them die a more natural death and stop spending 6 figures in the last few years of life.... and US healthcare problems are solved for years to come.

Kindly see the Forbes chart below and note that in the rest of the first world healthcare expenditures at EVERY age are no higher than a reasonable annual premium. In Germany, for instance, an 80 year old is costing maybe $10k in healthcare. But in the USA, costs for those over 60 are far more than most people can afford to pay in annual premiums at ANY age....it just can't work unless you want to pay for a full blown Nordic-style cradle-to grave system, which of course you don't.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro...012-the-year-in-healthcare-charts/
see Annual Per Capita Healtcare costs by age

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):

And the ONLY reason you oppose it is because Mr. Obama likes it. If a GOP President had gotten an identical law passed, you would be cheering it.

Very true. Ideology and party loyalty rules over economic reality. The US has socialised education, a socialised road system, a socialised military, but the weak minded are easily scared by the fear-mongering of socialised medicine. Merely calling the ACA something like "Deficit Reduction Act of 2011" would have probably made it more popular among 5-10% of the population. (see, for instance, the creatively named of the Patriot Act)

Pu

[Edited 2013-10-12 22:23:32]
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:21 am

I have my own company (no FT employees). My healthcare insurance went from ~$450/month (BCBS great coverage) (27yo, non-smoker, with a pre-existing non-serious-but-could-potentially-be-condition) to $313 for "platinum". "Gold" would have been I think $260, "silver" $180, and "bronze" $135.

Thank you Obama!
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
PHX787
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:03 am

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 30):
That's a pretty silly idea. Preventing health care from being needed is much cheaper in the long run than just fixing needs as the come up. Besides, where would you draw the line on what is a need?
Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 30):
That would mean religious affiliated hospitals cannot accept emergency patients, because it wouldn't be fair to someone who is too incapacitated to make a decision on which hospital to go to be forced geographically to go to one that didn't meet the medical standards of public hospitals.
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 31):
Legislation on PRIVATE hospitals? Socialism!!!

Apples to oranges: There would not be any issue with covering emergency patients. The separate legislation would cover sensitive topics to religious related hospitals, such as abortions and the method to administer medicine.
Jewish, Catholic, and Muslim-affiliated hospitals have long complained about how national acts on procreational rights have gone against their beliefs. As much as I do not like religion, we still have the first amendment. We can't infringe on that by forcing these hospitals to conduct abortions, for example.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 31):
You're healthy today. What about tomorrow? It's like car insurance. You don't know when an accident might happen.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 33):
I am a good driver, so I don't need auto insurance.

Apples to oranges. A car is not a human. It's operated by one, but it's essentially a different entity. So many other variables are thrown in that car insurance covers. Health insurance? Well, that only covers me. And my argument is that mandate is not a good idea. Mandating car insurance means if you drive, cause an accident, youre liable to be paying the various penalties. But you don't cause an accident there's no worry...but it's still extremely necessary.

What does health insurance cover besides yourself? It's two separate entities. And slamming a huge tax to a mandate isn't the way to go to enforce it.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 33):
Why? Medicare is fine the way it is. ACA addresses private insurance.

Are you kidding me? Have you read anything on how broke Medicare is?
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Dreadnought
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:02 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 39):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 33):
Why? Medicare is fine the way it is. ACA addresses private insurance.

Are you kidding me? Have you read anything on how broke Medicare is?

Not to mention ACA is designed to add a huge burden on top of Medicare/Medicaid on top of what they already have.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:59 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 33):
I am a good driver, so I don't need auto insurance.

There is a difference. You choose to drive a car. You don't choose to be born.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
IIRC. UPS is a union company and your health care insurance is based on union negotiations. Actually, union negotiations have had a huge impact on the availability of private insurance paid for by employers - even in non-union companies.

The union helps, but I was more demonstrating the fact that it isn't rare for someone in the working class to have access to cheap healthcare.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:56 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
But it is not critical.

well it might be critical when you get bacterial endocarditis from a Streptococcus that is normally present in your mouth  .
 
LittleFokker
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:07 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Not to mention ACA is designed to add a huge burden on top of Medicare/Medicaid on top of what they already have.

That the states don't have to pay for. The extra Medicaid coverage is paid for under the ACA plan. For the states that refuse to accept the federal money to cover that is just ignorance on their part.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
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WarRI1
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:10 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 38):
I have my own company (no FT employees). My healthcare insurance went from ~$450/month (BCBS great coverage) (27yo, non-smoker, with a pre-existing non-serious-but-could-potentially-be-condition) to $313 for "platinum". "Gold" would have been I think $260, "silver" $180, and "bronze" $135.

Thank you Obama!

Three years of lies, distortions, and you come along to testify that the ACA has worked for you. How can this be? There must be a mistake. You mean to tell me that the ACA has worked for someone on here? Praise the Lord. The ACA lives, it works, It is great news to me, and terrible news for the liars and distorters. I thank you for those words of hope, for all the uninsured.   
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:47 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 39):
Apples to oranges. A car is not a human. It's operated by one, but it's essentially a different entity. So many other variables are thrown in that car insurance covers. Health insurance? Well, that only covers me

Yes, health insurance only covers you, and lack of it doesn't cover you, ie: me and other hard working Americans have to foot the bill because you don't wanna pay in like anyone else.

I used to be against the individual mandate until I really thought of it like that... if you opted out of health insurance AND opted out of us saving your life/paying for you because you don't have insurance it would be one thing... but we obviously aren't going to live in a world where we just let people die on the streets.

Get coverage. You can be the healthiest human on the planet and get nailed by a drunk driver or something. I shouldn't have to pay for you because you didn't feel like paying for yourself

*('you' in general, you =/= PHX787)
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Ken777
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:01 am

Quoting pu (Reply 37):
The egregious problem with US healthcare is the massive and hugely profitable medical-industrial complex built around the elderly.

Actually treating the elderly is a lower profit operation (per treatment) because Medicare places caps on what is paid per treatment. With the ACA it also puts huge competitive pressure on areas like DME charges.

Quoting pu (Reply 37):
But in the USA, costs for those over 60 are far more than most people can afford to pay in annual premiums at ANY age....it just can't work

That is because people in the Medicare age bracket have paid into the system during their working life and get a better system than those with employer nanny care. You also need to understand that Medicare does not pay your full medical bill. So in addition to lifetime taxes and a months premium it is responsible to get another policy called MediGap.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 39):
Jewish, Catholic, and Muslim-affiliated hospitals have long complained about how national acts on procreational rights have gone against their beliefs.

And yet the religious hospitals are more than willing to take all the tax breaks - like no property taxes. To a material degree that places them in a position of needing to conform to the communities they operate in.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Have you read anything on how broke Medicare is?

Medicare has a positive Trust Fund (just like Social Security) and the changes from the ACA can only help - especially in the areas of DME and Fraud.

There was a short term reduction in funding the program when Obama was working to avoid a depression, but there is no need for that now. In reality, we can depend on both inflation and potential increases in the FICA percentage to keep it active.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 41):
The union helps, but I was more demonstrating the fact that it isn't rare for someone in the working class to have access to cheap healthcare.

People in the working class don't have a chance to have a decent health insurance under our system. They are living paycheck to paycheck and are either
 
PHX787
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:13 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
Get coverage. You can be the healthiest human on the planet and get nailed by a drunk driver or something. I shouldn't have to pay for you because you didn't feel like paying for yourself

Oh trust me, I have coverage. I have all I really need, especially siince i've had ear isssues for a long time.

But don't MANDATE those who can't afford it to buy something they can't afford.

That's how the housing market crashed. Not by mandates, but by tricking people into junk loans that they couldn't afford.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 46):
And yet the religious hospitals are more than willing to take all the tax breaks - like no property taxes. To a material degree that places them in a position of needing to conform to the communities they operate in.

As much as I hate organized religion again, we do see many of these organizations sponsoring so much charity. you don't see it because they don't gloat about it like leftist celebs do.

The point of volunteering and donation is to help someone by sacrifice. Not make everybody feel bad by blabbering about it.

If I wanted to blabber about my own charity I'd be making a new thread every day. Hell yesterday I bought a water bottle for a dude who was drunk and passed out in front of my apartment, and waited for the police to arrive to make sure he was ok. He woke up soon after, chugged the bottle, thanked me, and was on his way.
I didn't even talk about this to my friends.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 43):
That the states don't have to pay for. The extra Medicaid coverage is paid for under the ACA plan. For the states that refuse to accept the federal money to cover that is just ignorance on their part.

Someone's gonna have to pay if this thing sticks.
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romeobravo
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:30 pm

Barring 2 exceptions below (and maybe a few other minor areas), I would have a largely unregulated free market system. No more regulations on insurance discrimination and such. No more tax incentives to favour healthcare. No more subsidies for the poor. I would massively scale down the FDA, possibly eliminate it. Allow opt outs for practise regulations. Eliminate or massively scale down patents. Either privatise or at least graduate licensure. Get rid of medicare.

Do all that and you might find you have affordable healthcare.

There are 2 areas in medical care where the market fails. That is children born into poor families who can't afford it - taxation could cover them and any chronic conditions they pick up at this stage. Finally, serious emergency procedures where you have no time or ability to negotiate - say you get hit out cold by a car and your life is on the line. In this situation tax would have to probably cover it too. An alternative might be mandating emergency coverage. You'd also need to cap emergency treatment costs.
 
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Aesma
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RE: What Is The Alternate To The ACA?

Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 48):
Eliminate or massively scale down patents.

How do you expect drug companies to spend money on R&D if there are no patents ? Already they're scaling down research because it takes so much time (while costing more and more money) that the initial patent only covers 10 years or less of commercial production.

For the rest, I see you're fine with the poor and unhealthy being unable to get any kind of coverage, and just dying younger of preventable causes. Why would you want to cover their babies doesn't really make sense, though.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

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