ltbewr
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Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:13 am

Over the last several years, we had all heard of sensational media stores of cases of rape of teen and college aged women. Most recently a Kansas City newspaper (the Star) put out a story of a 14 year old female that earlier this year had had raped, apparently after getting drunk, and left for dead in her home front yard on a cold night in a town in Missouri and that some in that town making her the bad person instead of the rapists. Last year it was Sandusky, Ohio where a teen woman was severely drunk and raped by a number of men. Two years ago a HS Cheerleader who refused to cheer the name of a basketball player who she claims raped her and she got kicked off the team instead of the basketball player. Almost all colleges have had rapes on their campuses or in their communities of students and problems with the victims made victims again, dropping out as their alleged rapist was still allowed on campus. Too many women had killed themselves, been psychologically ruined, unable to have good relationships with men due to rape.

So, how do we deal with trying to reduce the rate of rape of teen and college aged woman? There have been a number of articles over the last weeks on Huffington Post, ESPN.com, Slate.com and so on that have led to some suggestions, and a lot of arguments over the pros and cons of what can be done from victim blaming to not enough blame of the attackers. Those articles and comments seem to bring out several threads including:

Alcohol use/abuse, drugging of beverages, (especially of those under 21), that drinking puts a woman at risk, so should go to any parties or at least not alone or even drink at all or only from sealed containers (like bottled/canned beer).

The disporportinate numbers of men who are alleged to have raped who are on Football or Basketball or on other sports teams, and seem to get away with it so not to lose the player.

In colleges, certain dorm areas and Fraternity houses are at higher risk of rapes occurring

That some rapists may have parents who are politically connected or have the money to hire lawyer to make sure their soon is protected. Few of the raped women have such resources.

How, and made worse with social media and texting, the bullying or 'slut' calling of victims by peers for their claims of rape.

The lack of backbone or fear of lawsuits that make HS and college administrators not want to enforce laws and rules as to assaults or alcohol use.

Parents who don't do their job to keep the HS aged kids away from the parties or alcohol, or even sponsor parties in violation of laws against serving minors alcohol.

Young men not taught sexual responsibility by their parents, giving in to peer pressure to have sex, even rape so don't be seen as 'gay' or a jerk or having underlying mental issue that may make them want to rape.

So do you here have any ideas on how we (men and women) on what we can do to reduced the rate of rape of young women ?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:23 am

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
Over the last several years, we had all heard of sensational media stores of cases of rape of teen and college aged women.

Is this just the media being the media or is this actually an increasing problem? I mean any rape is too much rape but these things have a history of people freaking out over an epidemic that just isn't there

Quoting ltbewr (Thread starter):
victim blaming to not enough blame of the attackers.

I am tired of treading lightly in this debate. I'm usually forced into silence because even touching this subject causes a bunch of angry responses. I am 100% against putting blame on the victim BUT it's to the point now where even if you give girls/women helpful tips like going to parties with a friend, not jogging at night alone, etc I get the whole "why are you telling ME how to act!? Tell the guys to stop raping women!" We do tell guys to not rape women. The advice given is very helpful and not always common sense, and the whole angry feedback is akin to me telling you to lock your doors... "why do I have to lock my doors? Tell the criminals not to rob me!"

That's just what I've encountered. Can't give any good advice because someone thinks I'm blaming a victim for getting raped which is absurd. Sorry, rant off. I'm sure a few of yall have had similar experiences

Another thought provoking idea is the notion that we should "change society's acceptance of violence towards women." Sounds great, but how do we do that? Legislate against violent movies (a violation of free speech.) ? Is it through awareness campaigns? Honest question
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:36 am

One of biggest problems with this is the fact that america is rife with Rape Culture. At the same time, we've done a decent job of criminalizing the behavior. So where does that leave us?

One thing I'm picking up on (and this certainly isn't a criticism of your position) is that Victim Blaming and Slut Shaming are alive and well enough here that even your OP makes mention of the fact that some of these women were drunk. I think that's honestly a non-factor, but it really seems like a lot of media attempts to mitigate rape by mentioning this. I think the tone, intended or otherwise, that "well that's what can happen when you're drunk" is a problem right there.

Sorry, I don't have anything useful to tell you, buy when a whole culture is that tolerant of this problem, it really does look like it's a socially systemic issue.
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usflyer msp
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:43 am

Many "rapes" are not actually rapes. Unfortunately, higher education is full of man-hating feminist nutjobs who use a very broad definition of rape...
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:01 am

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 3):
feminist nutjobs who use a very broad definition of rape...

First off, I see what you did there. Very clever.

Secondly, I agree that we really have muddied the waters by glamorizing a certain level of victimhood for some of the drama queens out there, and between that and some of the most assinine implied consent laws being implemented, I totally see where you are coming from.

However, I do believe that points of views, as expressed by md90 there, that tsk tsk rape victims as an opt out instead of acknowleding that a crime occurred, do more harm than good. And that goes for everyone, not just the crime victims in question.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:20 am

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 2):
I think that's honestly a non-factor

It is absolutely 100% not a drunk woman's fault she got raped, you are correct. BUT, and again, I am putting on my flame suit, in addition to helping the victim out in every way we can and not guilting her into anything, we can tell all the other women the facts: be careful when you get drunk. You can, by no fault of your own, get raped if you are not careful. It's like getting rear-ended in a car... the other person is at fault but your car is still all jacked up. Not really a win on your part.

I won't deny that victim blaming does indeed happen, I should have made myself clear. I'm just under the belief we can foster a culture where women can dress and do what they want but they do so in a safe manner and take good precautions that avoid crimes that we will never remove from society, no matter how hard we try (and that's not a cop out, we can do what I mentioned in conjunction with tackling the rape problem on the perpetrator side as well.) Going back to my analogy, if someone gets burglarized and we comfort them and recommend a security system, we are by no means blaming the victim for not having a security system and getting burglarized, and we absolutely prefer that people wouldn't go breaking into homes, but wishing is a pretty poor precaution, I'll settle on locks and security systems.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 3):
Many "rapes" are not actually rapes.

I don't want to go to one extreme or the other (not all rapes are rapes, true, but there are still plenty of rapes) but what boggles me is when two people get intoxicated and they have sex and then after the fact, one of them says they were drunk and it wasn't consensual. Well technically, the alleged rapist was drunk to so that person couldn't consent either. Again, I'm not saying that every girl that accuses someone of rape just got drunk and regretted it the next morning, but I think our courts often forget the burden of proof and presumption of innocence
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:54 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
and again, I am putting on my flame suit,

I'm about to disagree with the hell out of you, but I don't think we're worrying about flamming here.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
we can tell all the other women the facts: be careful when you get drunk. You can, by no fault of your own, get raped if you are not careful. It's like getting rear-ended in a car... the other person is at fault but your car is still all jacked up.

But it still sends the wrong message, for a couple of reasons. First of all, guilt removed or not, we're still telling a woman that the burden of her not getting raped falls to her. I understand fully that intoxication makes rape more possible. Nevertheless, a woman should not have to modify her behavior in a way that a man would not to avoid being assaulted. That's unexcusable, and represents a foreseeable and preventable failure on society's part.

Secondly, and less importantly, I'm not down with the notion that a provocatively dressed, drunken woman has the ability (that a sober, conservatively dressed one doesn't) to alter the level of self control needed to not rape someone. As men (and I say that since this is a.net, and there aren't many broads here), we should be thoroughly outraged by the notion that we could somehow be reduced to animal behavior simply by altering a few stimuli.

Including mention of a rape victim being intox'ed at the time sends a very disquieting message along those lines.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
but wishing is a pretty poor precaution,

And how is telling a woman 'watch out when you get drunk' different to this? They point of the OP (and he's right about this IMO) is that we have a big problem with Rape Culture in the US, and that's what needs to be addressed. I'm not going to tell you I have any answers there, but I know what's not one.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
but what boggles me is when two people get intoxicated and they have sex and then after the fact, one of them says they were drunk and it wasn't consensual.

Yeah, I'm really not sure about the legality of that. Sounds like a mess.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Again, I'm not saying that every girl that accuses someone of rape just got drunk and regretted it the next morning, but I think our courts often forget the burden of proof and presumption of innocence

The burden of proof for rape is already pretty high. Consider what someone who's been raped has to go through to get an assailant to the trial phase. It's not pretty.
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oly720man
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:37 am

Education, education, education.

If kids are growing up with the mentality that you have sex as soon as possible, and peer pressure, media prurience, ready availability of porn, questionable behaviour of "role models" and the macho-jock ethos all add fuel to the fire, it's not really a surprise that some will act on their urges and these rapes are occurring. .If you have few or no "boundaries" and can't discriminate between what I'll loosely call entertainment and what you may see as having sex is the thing to do, regardless, then what's to stop you?
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:27 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Is this just the media being the media or is this actually an increasing problem? I mean any rape is too much rape but these things have a history of people freaking out over an epidemic that just isn't there

Does it matter?

One rape is too many, and if the media are 'sensationalizing' the issue then that puts more attention on the issue. For example, to take the case in Missouri cited by the OP, this has drawn attention because somebody in the outside world found out that the attackers were not going to be charged, and made a fuss about it. Whether word spreads by traditional media or social media, that is a good thing.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 3):
Many "rapes" are not actually rapes

Actually the opposite. Many sexual encounters which are rape are "excused" by a culture that blames the women for being drunk etc.

PLEASE LET'S BE CLEAR: Contrary to what the media sometimes has you believe, rape is NOT the act of dragging somebody into a dark alley kicking and screaming and forcing yourself on them; it is any sexual conduct that is not consented to, or in which one party was legally incapable of providing consent.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
I think our courts often forget the burden of proof and presumption of innocence

This is something that the media does sensationalise out of all proportion.

Courts don't forget the burden of proof, which is why the victim often bares almost the entire evidential burden. Often the only witness is the victim, so if the accused pleads not guilty then the victim's evidence basically has to prosecute them single handedly. This places immense pressure and emotional strain on the victim. In most cases their recollections of the event are quite hazy, and it can be relatively easy for the defence attorney to trip them up with inconsistencies or pick wholes in their testimony. There is also the "shame" factor, which precludes many victims from coming forward, or then declining to press charges when they discover that they would be required to confess intimate sexual details in court.

It is simply an unfortunate reality of our justice system that it is tipped slightly in favor of the attacker. The presumption of innocence until proven guilty is a fundamental human right, and I could never advocate it be taken away from anyone, but the criminal justice system should consider how they run sexual assault trials. Even just having the trial behind closed doors and suppressing the court records could make a difference.
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casinterest
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:15 pm

So let's bring some fact into this.

At least in the US, rapes have been declining as a percentage of the population and in overall numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics


I think education, and the proliferation of Smartphones can be attributed to this fact. Folks are more active on social media, and their friends know where they are.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 8):
One rape is too many, and if the media are 'sensationalizing' the issue then that puts more attention on the issue. For example, to take the case in Missouri cited by the OP, this has drawn attention because somebody in the outside world found out that the attackers were not going to be charged, and made a fuss about it. Whether word spreads by traditional media or social media, that is a good thing.

Media sensationalism has it's problems too though. There have been many cases where the alleged perpetrators were tried in the media, before in court, and their cases were bungled by the Prosecuting attorney's. Take a read of "Duke Lacross"

Rape is also a stigma, and in some cases I think a lot of victim's do not come forward, and I think it allows some folks to go on and commit more crimes. They have their reasons, and I think a lot has to do with the issues of burden of proof, and having seen cases such as the cheerleader one from above where nothing good came out of it for the accuser. It is usually no surprise in big cases of abuse to have 2 or more victim's step forward after a high profile complain it filed.


However Education and awareness are key, and I think that there need to be real discussions about rape in sex ed classes as young as middle school.
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cmf
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:26 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Is this just the media being the media or is this actually an increasing problem?

I don't think it is either. I think it is a sign that society is finally starting to address something that has always been there.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Is it through awareness campaigns? Honest question

Partially it is. Removing the stigma around reporting it is important.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 3):
Many "rapes" are not actually rapes. Unfortunately, higher education is full of man-hating feminist nutjobs who use a very broad definition of rape...

Please define many. Is it most? Is it half? Is it 10%? Most modern reports I know talk about a few percent with some specific segments in the 10% rate. In my mind making a big fuzz about false accusations is an attempt to ignore the big problem.
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Mir
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:46 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I am 100% against putting blame on the victim BUT it's to the point now where even if you give girls/women helpful tips like going to parties with a friend, not jogging at night alone, etc I get the whole "why are you telling ME how to act!? Tell the guys to stop raping women!"

I know what you mean, but I draw the line at telling women not to do something that we wouldn't tell men not to do. I read an article the other day about how women shouldn't get drunk at parties, because it can lead to them getting raped. Fair enough. Yet in the same article, it mentioned that men often use being drunk as a defense for raping ("I'd had a few beers, I didn't know what I was doing", etc.). Well then how about we also tell men to not get drunk at parties, since their judgement might get clouded and they might do something that hurts someone else or that they'd otherwise regret? I don't hear much of that going around, certainly not as much as we're telling women not to drink too much (to the article author's credit, she did mention it, if only briefly). And yet I'd bet that it would have just as much of an effect on the number of rapes and sexual assaults as women not drinking too much.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
We do tell guys to not rape women.

We do. We also glorify having sex, so there are some very mixed messages there.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 6):
Nevertheless, a woman should not have to modify her behavior in a way that a man would not to avoid being assaulted. That's unexcusable, and represents a foreseeable and preventable failure on society's part.

  

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ANITIX87
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:33 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 3):
Many "rapes" are not actually rapes. Unfortunately, higher education is full of man-hating feminist nutjobs who use a very broad definition of rape...

It doesn't matter. If someone feels physically or emotionally violated by something sexual, then it's abuse at the very least, and can easily be classified as rape. There are many cases of a woman saying she was raped, and the man saying, "Oh come on, that wasn't rape." Emotionally violating someone is less "obvious" but is just as bad as physically violating someone. I won't go into details, but it took a very hard lesson for me to learn that and I will always regret the outcome.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 7):
Education, education, education.

This is a big part of it, yes, but the culture in general is messed up. I consider myself well-educated and I gre up in a family very open about sex, respect, love, and the rest of it. But growing up here in the USA, I've been subject to media and peer experiences that sometimes glorify rape (among men) and even excuse it (among both men and women). The underlying cause is cultural, not solely a result of parenting or education. Pornography obviously is to blame for some of it, but I won't go so far as to condemn it as a cause.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 8):
it is any sexual conduct that is not consented to, or in which one party was legally incapable of providing consent.

Exactly. Rape doesn't even have to include intercourse itself. Another misconception is that there cannot be rape in a committed, long-term relationship (or marriage). Just because you're "with" someone, doesn't mean you have their consent automatically. And yet, if a woman claimed her husband raped her, the onus of proof would be on her and I don't know of a court of law anywhere who would convict the husband. As it stands, only 30% of rapists even get charged (it my be lower), and that's only among those who get report, which is a minuscule percentage of actual assailants.

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flymia
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:40 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Is this just the media being the media or is this actually an increasing problem? I mean any rape is too much rape but these things have a history of people freaking out over an epidemic that just isn't there
Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 6):
They point of the OP (and he's right about this IMO) is that we have a big problem with Rape Culture in the US, and that's what needs to be addressed.
Quoting casinterest (Reply 9):
At least in the US, rapes have been declining as a percentage of the population and in overall numbers.

Exactly. I am not saying its not a problem but we all know what the media can do to make things look a lot worse. Look no farther than the "summer of sharks" or the year of "airline emergency landings" the media can make anything look like a epidemic. How about that crazy swine flu? We have a problem in the U.S. because there is a large amount of rapes but it is not worse than it was years ago.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 2):
that even your OP makes mention of the fact that some of these women were drunk. I think that's honestly a non-factor, but it really seems like a lot of media attempts to mitigate rape by mentioning this.

It is a factor. It is not an excuse for the accused rapist but you can't say its not a factor. Everything is a factor.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 6):
ut it still sends the wrong message, for a couple of reasons. First of all, guilt removed or not, we're still telling a woman that the burden of her not getting raped falls to her. I understand fully that intoxication makes rape more possible. Nevertheless, a woman should not have to modify her behavior in a way that a man would not to avoid being assaulted. That's unexcusable, and represents a foreseeable and preventable failure on society's part.

That is like saying I should leave my doors unlocked, and not turn my alarm on because the burden of not being robbed is not on me its on the robbers. Lets me real here. A woman's chances of being raped is significantly more than any man has the chance of being raped. That is just the way it is. Is that a problem? Yes, we all wish rapes would decline. Which they are. But we can't sit here and not give advice on how to avoid just because it is not fair. If the girls want to drink a lot, bring friends.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
I know what you mean, but I draw the line at telling women not to do something that we wouldn't tell men not to do. I read an article the other day about how women shouldn't get drunk at parties, because it can lead to them getting raped. Fair enough.

I tell my girlfriend to try not to walk alone in a parking lot at night, or go to an ATM alone at night. Myself, I would. You think this is wrong advice?
Lets be real here there is a big difference between men and women when it comes to being targets of crimes. Its statistics and physical vulnerability. No one should go get wasted anywhere, especially without being with other friends but again I don't see why it would be unfair advice to tell a woman not to do it alone as when looking at the statistics she would be much more likely to be a victim of a crime alone and drunk than a man who is alone and drunk is. We should not fight statistics just because we want to be "fair" the world is not fair.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
but I think our courts often forget the burden of proof and presumption of innocence

I am going to have to disagree with you there (rarely happens), the courts and prosecutors offices certainly know their burden of proof and for that reason many rape cases are never prosecuted because it would be irresponsible to do so. Is that a bad situation for he victim? Yes, but sometimes you just can't go forward with a case no matter the crime. It would just not be ethical to do so.

I have dealt with rape cases before in some of the agencies I have worked for while in law school. The vast majority of the cases the victim was not at fault at all. There were a few cases though which were pleaded out where the victim was young, and after what I thought was consensual actions the female would plead rape. Why? Well in my honest opinion their parents found out. Is it really rape when you get in a car with two male friends, knowingly skip school, knowingly go to one of the friends home, one of the men was your so called boyfriend, and then claim rape days later. The story just did not add up.

A guy I know got into trouble overseas when two young females claimed him and his friends raped them. It was a pretty well known case in Miami. End result. Every security camera footage there was showed the two females having a blast with the guys, and the girls wanting the guys to come into their hotel room. Guess who found out about this the next day. Their father. And this was not the first time these two girls claimed to be raped before either.

I know the above cases are exceptions not the norm. But every case is different and that is why sometimes we can't prosecute every claim.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
We do. We also glorify having sex, so there are some very mixed messages there.

If someone sees rape and having sex as the same thing they have some major problems.
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:57 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 9):
Media sensationalism has it's problems too though

I understand entirely what you are saying, and if nothing else then media sensationalism has the potential to incite the "she was asking for it" brigade. That said, more airtime being given to the issue can hopefully raise awareness of it over the long term.

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
think it is a sign that society is finally starting to address something that has always been there.

  

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 12):
Rape doesn't even have to include intercourse itself

  

It does vary jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but as a rule then yes.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 12):
Another misconception is that there cannot be rape in a committed, long-term relationship (or marriage)

Don't get me started on that kettle of fish! This is one area in which we need to seriously raise awareness, as in many cases victims aren't aware that their spouse is acting illegally and that they have rights.
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Starbuk7
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:05 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 7):
Education, education, education.



I hope this education will include personnel responsiblity!! Kids and young adults are not being held accountable for their actions anymore. It's always someone elses fault that and individual did something bad, never their own.

I truely agree with education, but personnel responsibility and morality need to be a big part of that.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:18 pm

Education is key here, both sexual and alcohol-related. The 21 yo limit for alcohol just means it's even cooler to drink since it's illegal, totally counterproductive.

As for the drunk factor in rape, don't forget the guy can also be drunk. Having drunk sex and claiming rape afterwards can happen, I've seen it first hand. I've also stopped a guy who was clearly not drunk from raping a drunk girl (that I knew wasn't "open" ). This last one happened during an engineering school sanctioned "integration week-end" where a bunch of 18-23 yo pretty much drank 24/24 for three days, with games and all, supposedly "chaperoned" by professors, quite the experience ! At another such integration week-end there were nude dancers, pretty wild.
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
I know what you mean, but I draw the line at telling women not to do something that we wouldn't tell men not to do.

Sorry but that makes no sense in the real world. It would be nice and rosy if we were all equally capable of dealing with certain situations, but we are not. In general, a man will be able to defend himself better than a woman. Is that a general rule? Of course not, there are women out there that would overpower men or there are men out there that do not have the size or the experience to defend themselves from pretty much anyone. I do advise my female friends to be extra cautious when walking home at night on their own or when they are going through more dangerous areas of the city. This is not based on any prejudice I have against women but on this thing called reality.


Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 2):
"well that's what can happen when you're drunk" is a problem right there.

Being drunk is not necessarily a problem. Knowing how you act when you are drunk is the main issue. If someone is intoxicated and makes certain advances or suggestions that they wouldn't be making if they were not drunk, they better know how alcohol affects them and know their limits. Want to drink excessively and lose control? Make sure you have a friend or two around you that can cover your back, whether that would be in a case when you senselessly decide to follow someone and have intercourse or pick up your keys and attempt to drive.

These points are not about putting blame on victims, it is about being as cautious as possible in certain situations. If I walk through a bad neighborhood counting $100 bills and I get mugged and assaulted, of course it is not REALLY my fault and of course I did not commit any crime. At the same time though I was being irresponsible and I was not thinking that my actions were making me a target for a criminal out there. And before you compare that to a rape, it can be a traumatic experience as well and can even result to my death.
 
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:45 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 12):
It doesn't matter. If someone feels physically or emotionally violated by something sexual, then it's abuse at the very least, and can easily be classified as rape. There are many cases of a woman saying she was raped, and the man saying, "Oh come on, that wasn't rape." Emotionally violating someone is less "obvious" but is just as bad as physically violating someone. I won't go into details, but it took a very hard lesson for me to learn that and I will always regret the outcome.

I have to disagree. If someone physically violates you without your consent, that is the definition of rape. Period. Just because you have sex with someone and you regret it and feel "emotionally violated" afterwards does not make it rape! All that other stuff is jsut psychobabble..
 
lewis
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 18):
I have to disagree. If someone physically violates you without your consent, that is the definition of rape. Period. Just because you have sex with someone and you regret it and feel "emotionally violated" afterwards does not make it rape! All that other stuff is jsut psychobabble..

  

The "oh I woke up next to this person I don't really know" or "I wouldn't have had sex with him if I was sober" is not really rape. Some personal responsibility should definitely be part of the equation.
 
ANITIX87
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:55 pm



Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 18):
Just because you have sex with someone and you regret it and feel "emotionally violated" afterwards does not make it rape!

But there is a huge difference between "feeling emotionally violated" and "regretting having sex with someone". The two can be separate.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 18):
I have to disagree. If someone physically violates you without your consent, that is the definition of rape.

No, that is the cultural definition of rape. I'll agree that "emotionally violated" may not constitute rape in a legal sense, but it is abuse nevertheless. Let me put a scenario forward.

A married couple comes home from a night out. No alcohol involved, both totally sober. Happily married, for many years. They start having sex (consensual). The man, wanting to explore a more "kinky" approach, pulls his wife's hair during sex. She reacts positively. He takes it a step further, and smacks her ass. Again, she reacts positively. He moves even more into the kinky side of things and slaps her, hard, in the face or wraps his hands around her throat. She reacts negatively, tells him she doesn't like it. They finish and then she starts to cry, saying she didn't think he had that side to him and she feels he violated her trust and that she was afraid he was going to hurt her.

How do you define that? She may consider it rape. You may not. I wouldn't have, until recently. But if she feels violated and says she was raped because of the emotional trauma his actions caused (even if the slap didn't hurt her physically), then nobody has the right to tell her, "Oh, come on, that's just psychobabble, he didn't violate you."

There is (or should be) trust in any sexual encounter. There are boundaries and by definition if you go past the other person's boundaries or trust limits without asking and without their consent, you've violated them.

TIS

[Edited 2013-10-24 09:04:25]
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lewis
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:01 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 20):
A married couple
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 20):
Happily married, for many years
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 20):
he violated her trust and that she was afraid he was going to hurt her.
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 20):
How do you define that?

I would pretty much place it in the same category as them having a fight, him throwing a plate and start breaking stuff and her being afraid that during this anger outburst he could have also hurt her. Trust? Gone. Fear? Ditto. Is there really a law that would consider what you described as rape? The sexual act itself was consensual. It may not have been right and she would rightfully lose her trust but emotionally violated as in raped? I think this is putting a "rape" label on something that really isn't.

[Edited 2013-10-24 09:05:00]

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 20):

But there is a huge difference between "feeling emotionally violated"

And there is a huge difference between feeling emotionally violated and being raped. I can also get emotionally violated if I find out my partner is cheating on me. That does not make it rape.


[Edited 2013-10-24 09:06:06]

[Edited 2013-10-24 09:07:12]
 
usflyer msp
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:07 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 21):
I think this is putting a "rape" label on something that really isn't.

Which is exactly what the nutjob feminists want. In their world, every man is a rapist and every woman is a victim!
 
ANITIX87
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:10 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 21):
I would pretty much place it in the same category as them having a fight, him throwing a plate and start breaking stuff and her being afraid that during this anger outburst he could have also hurt her. Trust? Gone. Fear? Ditto. Is there really a law that would consider what you described as rape? The sexual act itself was consensual.

I think most people would agree with you, including lawyers and judges. If such a scenario went to court, it's very unlikely the husband would be found guilty. But just because the "legal" definition of rape doesn't apply, violating a woman in that way is never acceptable, whether it's in anger or in a drunken stupor. It shows a lack of respect and understanding so in my personal opinion, it does qualify as sexual abuse.

Quoting lewis (Reply 21):
And there is a huge difference between feeling emotionally violated and being raped. I can also get emotionally violated if I find out my partner is cheating on me. That does not make it rape.

True, I agree with you here. I just left my girlfriend of four years (a girl who was my best friend and future wife) because she cheated on me. She did not "rape" me, but I wouldn't say she violated me emotionally, either. She may have hurt me, destroyed me, and betrayed my trust, but I don't feel "violated."

PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying you're wrong to disagree, I'm just trying to illustrate how much of a cultural issue this is, and that because people disagree it is difficult to define, legislate, and educate regarding this issue.

TIS

[Edited 2013-10-24 09:12:38]
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lewis
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:22 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 23):
I think most people would agree with you, including lawyers and judges. If such a scenario went to court, it's very unlikely the husband would be found guilty. But just because the "legal" definition of rape doesn't apply, violating a woman in that way is never acceptable, whether it's in anger or in a drunken stupor. It shows a lack of respect and understanding so in my personal opinion, it does qualify as sexual abuse.

There is not really a "legal definition of rape". There is a general definition of a rape and it is there for a reason. You cannot just scream rape every time you get emotionally violated and brand someone as a sexual offender. We have seen how this slippery slope has affected so many people for trivial and dumb things in this country.

I do not think it is a matter of culture, just a matter of sensitivities. I know women that can claim they are emotionally violated because a drunk grabbed their behinds in a crowded club, while most would just respond with a slap or dousing someone with their drink. That is definitely not a rape and I wouldn't even call it sexual abuse. If there are women out there that would claim sexual abuse because their partner/husband went a bit rougher than they would want during consensual sex then, no comment from me, just a suggestion to maybe discuss the issue at a time outside intercourse or find another partner.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 6):
Nevertheless, a woman should not have to modify her behavior in a way that a man would not to avoid being assaulted.

Define modifying behavior? Are you talking about not drinking? Are you talking about changing the way you dress? I'm against those. I'm for saying "don't let your drinks go unattended," "don't get black out drunk," "have a friend with you when you drink." If that is being sexist, well I guess I'm a sexist. The advice I just mentioned actually is good advice for anyone, not just females

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 6):
Secondly, and less importantly, I'm not down with the notion that a provocatively dressed, drunken woman has the ability (that a sober, conservatively dressed one doesn't) to alter the level of self control needed to not rape someone. As men (and I say that since this is a.net, and there aren't many broads here), we should be thoroughly outraged by the notion that we could somehow be reduced to animal behavior simply by altering a few stimuli.

I agree, and I'm not even talking about that. Have women run around in bikinis bottoms and topless for all I care, there is a safe way of doing it (which is just a safe way of doing anything, see above) and an unsafe way

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 6):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
but wishing is a pretty poor precaution,

And how is telling a woman 'watch out when you get drunk' different to this?

How is "wishing a woman doesn't get raped" different from telling a woman to watch her drink in a club and not to get black out drunk? I think the difference is obvious

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 8):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Is this just the media being the media or is this actually an increasing problem? I mean any rape is too much rape but these things have a history of people freaking out over an epidemic that just isn't there

Does it matter?

One rape is too many,

And I agreed with you. It is VERY important to understand the situation before you wanna get a good fix for it. I never said "ignore the problem if rapes are declining, its fixing itself." But are rapes increasing? Decreasing? Staying the same? If there is a change, what can we point to as the cause? Did a school program start in 1998 that is having a positive affect on rape? Did the music starting from 2003 have a negative impact on rape?

That's what I'm talking about

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
Removing the stigma around reporting it is important

VERY true. That is what the military is currently doing. That is why there appears to be a spike in sexual assaults in the military, but that's for another thread

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
I know what you mean, but I draw the line at telling women not to do something that we wouldn't tell men not to do. I read an article the other day about how women shouldn't get drunk at parties, because it can lead to them getting raped.

And I'm not even talking about that, but I covered it above. Any of the advice I give can easily be applied to men... men may be at less risk for date rape, but it could still happen. Not getting black out drunk, ok, I'm telling people what not to do. But I think that's pretty good advice we can all agree on and actually, I think guys have a bigger problem with getting black out drunk. Nothing to do with sexism against women. Etc

Quoting flymia (Reply 13):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
but I think our courts often forget the burden of proof and presumption of innocence

I am going to have to disagree with you there (rarely happens), the courts and prosecutors offices certainly know their burden of proof and for that reason many rape cases are never prosecuted because it would be irresponsible to do so. Is that a bad situation for he victim? Yes, but sometimes you just can't go forward with a case no matter the crime. It would just not be ethical to do so.

Perhaps I fell into the sensational trap. Forgive me, I try not to do that  

-----

I think I've kinda demonstrated my point here. The fear of blaming the victim makes me scared to give advice like "watch your drinks" and the other advice I've outlined. I know others feel the same. My advice does NOT put guilt on the victim, I don't think, and if that does, I'm sorry. I think women (and men) should know common sense things like don't over drink. If that's considered victim blaming and slut shaming, then so be it, I hold that opinion and I think those that disagree with giving advice like that are only fueling the problem in an effort to be PC.

Once more, I'm AGAINST:

Telling women how to dress

Telling women they should not drink or even get drunk (but I am for telling women AND men to not get blacked out drunk)

Telling women they shouldn't go to clubs

Telling women they shouldn't ever go somewhere alone (I recommend going in a group, but telling them to merely be cautious alone isn't telling them not to go have fun)

Telling women to not be promiscuous--have fun. You can have sex with 5 guys out of 6 and you have a right to say NO to the last one

Telling women not to flash or go around naked (I recommend that anyone doesn't do this because it can lower your reputation if done in the wrong groups and can affect employment, but she has the right to do it and not have sex)

I can go on but I think (hope) my point is made
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smittyone
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:53 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 25):
Once more, I'm AGAINST:

Telling women how to dress

Telling women they should not drink or even get drunk (but I am for telling women AND men to not get blacked out drunk)

Telling women they shouldn't ever go somewhere alone (I recommend going in a group, but telling them to merely be cautious alone isn't telling them not to go have fun)

Telling women to not be promiscuous--have fun. You can have sex with 5 guys out of 6 and you have a right to say NO to the last one

Telling women not to flash or go around naked (I recommend that anyone doesn't do this because it can lower your reputation if done in the wrong groups and can affect employment, but she has the right to do it and not have sex)


For the record I plan on telling my daughter ALL these things.

Not because I'm sexist but because I want her to be safe in the world as it exists today, not how it is supposed to be or hopefully will be 20 years from now.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:01 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 26):
For the record I plan on telling my daughter ALL these things.

Not because I'm sexist but because I want her to be safe in the world as it exists today, not how it is supposed to be or hopefully will be 20 years from now.

Exactly, it's just good advice. As much as I'd love to see the world without rapists, they will ALWAYS be there. I'm not trying to restrict what anyone does, I just want them to be safe doing it. Quite frankly, I have a huge issue with someone trying to tell me I'm blaming the victim when I give such harmless, non-fun/freedom draining pieces of advice. I'll let the others I responded to respond to my posts because I have a feeling they agree with a lot of what I said.

I'll also add that someone might say "well someone shouldn't be scared to give advice like watch your drinks." Well guess what, people are afraid of saying things like that, so I think people should be more receptive to what others say instead of labeling them victim blamers
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cmf
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:12 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 20):
She reacts negatively, tells him she doesn't like it. They finish and then she starts to cry, saying she didn't think he had that side to him and she feels he violated her trust and that she was afraid he was going to hurt her.

The way you describe it I would not classify it as rape. But, change it so that after being told to stop he still continues and I would classify it as rape. This is what Assange is accused of having done.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 22):
Which is exactly what the nutjob feminists want. In their world, every man is a rapist and every woman is a victim!

Isn't that what the male chauvinist way to describe it?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 22):
Which is exactly what the nutjob feminists want. In their world, every man is a rapist and every woman is a victim!

I was too busy responding to people that quoted me and I overlooked this. Actually, I agree with you. NUT JOBS think this. The VAST majority of feminists and normal people have a very reasonable definition of rape. Don't chase the boogymen (well, boogywomen) extremists, I've seen some crazy ones too but they do NOT reflect mainstream views and it really deflects from the real issue here
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ANITIX87
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:28 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 28):
The way you describe it I would not classify it as rape. But, change it so that after being told to stop he still continues and I would classify it as rape.

And now we're into the gray area of what, exactly, qualifies as "consent." A girl may not want to say no for fear of angering the guy. Or maybe, because they're married (or in a serious relationship) she feels she's not allowed to say no (likewise, the man may believe there is "implied" consent in a committed relationship). A girl may not be able to say no if she's drunk, etc. But without the word "yes", he doesn't have consent. If she feels violated, it doesn't matter whether she told him to stop or not. Some may argue that it gives the victim an "advantage", because they can claim rape whenever they want, but I wouldn't think that a majority of rape accusations are made to save face after a regretful decision or to get back at someone (or for any other reason than legitimately feeling violated).

Now, having said all that, I will admit that there are situations where "consent" is stressed as a factor but may not necessarily be. If a sober guy takes a drunk girl home and she gives consent at the time, then later claims it was rape because she regrets it or doesn't remember, then she's victimizing herself for a decision she made (though, admittedly, perhaps not in a totally coherent state of mind). I'm not condoning the guy's actions, nor am I condemning her accusation, but perhaps we need a new law/definition for this type of situation. No matter how well you educate the guy in this situation, no matter how many times he's been told "if she's drunk she can't give consent", if you put any college-age male in this situation, he will have a hard time stopping himself long enough to think, "Hmm, well, if we have sex and she doesn't remember she'll tell people I raped her. I shouldn't have sex with this gorgeous, willing girl. It's better for me." Instead, he'll ask her, she'll say "yes" and he'll think, "Ok! We're good to go!"

TIS
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cmf
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:33 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 30):
but I wouldn't think that a majority of rape accusations are made to save face after a regretful decision or to get back at someone

I understand you have the position you have if you think this is the majority of cases. I very much doubt it is but would love to see statistics.
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usflyer msp
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 30):
And now we're into the gray area of what, exactly, qualifies as "consent." A girl may not want to say no for fear of angering the guy. Or maybe, because they're married (or in a serious relationship) she feels she's not allowed to say no (likewise, the man may believe there is "implied" consent in a committed relationship). A girl may not be able to say no if she's drunk, etc. But without the word "yes", he doesn't have consent. If she feels violated, it doesn't matter whether she told him to stop or not. Some may argue that it gives the victim an "advantage", because they can claim rape whenever they want, but I wouldn't think that a majority of rape accusations are made to save face after a regretful decision or to get back at someone (or for any other reason than legitimately feeling violated).

I don't see what is so gray here. If the female is of sound mind and gives no indication that she does not consent, then it is not rape. The male is a horny guy not a mind reader! I completely disagree that the female has to say yes; I think consent is implied unless the female says no or is uncooperative...
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:37 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 32):
I think consent is implied unless the female says no or is uncooperative...

Wow. You need to talk to more females. There are plenty of reasons why a female wouldn't say No even though they don't want to do it. I'm serious, please adopt a different view or you might be a rapist, not even kidding. Not all rapists kidnap females and hold them down with a knife, you know
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ANITIX87
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 32):
I think consent is implied unless the female says no or is uncooperative...

That's where your entire disillusionment comes in. There is no such thing as implied consent. Even a girl being your wife doesn't mean there's implied consent.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
There are plenty of reasons why a female wouldn't say No even though they don't want to do it.

Exactly. It'd be nice to get a woman's input in this thread.

TIS
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smittyone
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
Wow. You need to talk to more females. There are plenty of reasons why a female wouldn't say No even though they don't want to do it. I'm serious, please adopt a different view or you might be a rapist, not even kidding. Not all rapists kidnap females and hold them down with a knife, you know

Absolutely. It's incumbent on the pilot to make sure that he's "cleared for takeoff"...silence from the tower ain't it!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
Exactly, it's just good advice. As much as I'd love to see the world without rapists, they will ALWAYS be there. I'm not trying to restrict what anyone does, I just want them to be safe doing it. Quite frankly, I have a huge issue with someone trying to tell me I'm blaming the victim when I give such harmless, non-fun/freedom draining pieces of advice. I'll let the others I responded to respond to my posts because I have a feeling they agree with a lot of what I said.

I'll also add that someone might say "well someone shouldn't be scared to give advice like watch your drinks." Well guess what, people are afraid of saying things like that, so I think people should be more receptive to what others say instead of labeling them victim blamers

Yup, and to avoid perpetuating the 'blame the women' culture this kind of advice is best given to individuals about how to manage their risk by parents etc. rather than people saying blanket stuff like "Women shouldn't do xyz".
 
lewis
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):

Wow. You need to talk to more females. There are plenty of reasons why a female wouldn't say No even though they don't want to do it. I'm serious, please adopt a different view or you might be a rapist, not even kidding. Not all rapists kidnap females and hold them down with a knife, you know

So let me get this straight. I see what you mean here but if I meet a girl, start fooling around and things keep moving to the obvious without any form or rejection or apathy/unconsciousness on her side should I stop and ask "Do you want to have sex with me?". I don't know, that has never happened to me but if that is the case maybe I should have written consents or even have it recorded so that I am not accused of rape in the future? And the girl "would not say no even if they don't want to do it"? So she would say yes but really she would mean no? I'm not sure I'm following here. I knew that "no means no" but the "yes may mean no too" has never come up in related discussions that I have had.
 
usflyer msp
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:23 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 36):
So let me get this straight. I see what you mean here but if I meet a girl, start fooling around and things keep moving to the obvious without any form or rejection or apathy/unconsciousness on her side should I stop and ask "Do you want to have sex with me?".

I know what you mean, if that is the case I've raped almost every woman I have ever been with! It also means several women have raped me! Maybe it is cultural but the women I know would have no problems telling a dude "no" if she didn't want to do something and then kick his ass if he didn't stop. They have never been subscribers to the cult of female victimhood...
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:28 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 36):
Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 37):

No. I'm not saying if you don't get a verbal yes means you're a rapist. I'm saying that just assuming not hearing No ALWAYS = consent is not true. You need to be careful
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ANITIX87
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:02 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 36):
I knew that "no means no" but the "yes may mean no too" has never come up in related discussions that I have had.
Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 37):
I know what you mean, if that is the case I've raped almost every woman I have ever been with! It also means several women have raped me!

That's not at all what DeltaMD90 and I are saying. We're simply making the point that "No means no" but that "The absence of Yes can also mean No". This is a very extreme example, but just because a girl invites you to her place and takes off all her clothes and sits in front of you and says, "I love having sex." That doesn't automatically mean you've gotten permission from her and can now have sex with her. Just because you and your girlfriend come home from an awesome night out, it doesn't mean that you have the unrestricted privilege to have sex with her then and there, no questions asked.

Yes, of course, in both situations, it's likely that you'll have sex, and it'll be great, and that she will totally be into it. And in the latter, there is an implied trust and respect so that you don't need to explicitly ask if she's giving consent.

But if, in either situation, the girl suddenly tells you, "I'm not OK with this" that means "Stop." Many guys (I'm not saying you, lewis or usflyer msp, just a general statement) would continue. They'd be thinking the girl didn't mean it, or was playing coy, or could be convinced eventually. A smart girl would put an end to it immediately. A girl who is afraid might stop resisting after a while and give in. In either case (whether nothing happened, or whether the girl stopped resisting and got angry later) a guy might get angry and say "She was showing all the signs of wanting to, it's not rape" or "but we're in a relationship, I should be allowed to, so it's not rape."

Similarly, in either case, if you have sex with the girl and she doesn't try to stop you but tells you afterwards something like, "I regret doing that, I didn't want to, but I was afraid to say no" (it happens, trust me) then you've suddenly set yourself up for an accusation. Even if she had said yes explicitly and then changed her mind afterward (for whatever reason), she can still turn around and accuse you (happens to people all over the world, every day). Those are the scenarios that create this "rape culture" we're talking about.

A vast majority of men in the civilized world fall into the "good" category. If a girl says no, they may beg and plead a little and try to convince her to change her mind, but they're not going to forcefully have their way with her (or, at least, I'd like to think so). "Rape" the way most people define it it (violent, forceful abuse and sexual acts) is not so common as the media would have you believe. But that's not the only way to "rape" someone. The fact that we use the word so loosely in other aspects of life ("Whoa, did you see, the Red Sox raped the Cardinals 8-1 last night!") shows how diluted the word (and the act) have become, especially among men.


Let me put another scenario forward. A couple (in a long-term, committed relationship) has a very heated argument. Nasty words fly, anger is in the air, both parties are desperately fighting for their side to prevail. The woman is apologetic, but the man is angry. Finally, things settle down, at least verbally. But the man is still angry, and before he knows what's come upon him, and blinded by rage, he's got his girlfriend (or wife) by the arm and is leading her into their bedroom. He undresses her and proceeds to have his way with her, driven by anger. She asks him to kiss her, he says no, he's too angry to show that kind of intimacy. She cries through the act. (Note, at no point has she said "I don't want to do this" or "Please stop" or anything like that). When he finishes, he gets dressed, she is obviously distressed and upset and lays in the bed alone. In this scenario, did he rape her?

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jetblueguy22
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 15):
I truely agree with education, but personnel responsibility and morality need to be a big part of that.

There needs to be personal responsibility on both sides. Morning after regret should not be treated as rape.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 22):
Which is exactly what the nutjob feminists want. In their world, every man is a rapist and every woman is a victim!

I think you've seen too many lifetime movies. Yeah there are extreme elements of feminism just like with any ideology. But far from all of them.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 29):
The VAST majority of feminists and normal people have a very reasonable definition of rape. Don't chase the boogymen (well, boogywomen) extremists, I've seen some crazy ones too but they do NOT reflect mainstream views and it really deflects from the real issue here

The problem, just as with politics is those extremists yell the loudest and are heard the most. By definition I'm a feminist. I think a woman is equal to a man and should have the same opportunities. But we today consider feminists to be the ones who act like equality isn't the truth, women are superior.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 35):
Absolutely. It's incumbent on the pilot to make sure that he's "cleared for takeoff"...silence from the tower ain't it!

Good analogy, but are men supposed to get something recorded or in writing every time? How about breathalyze their partner to make sure they aren't intoxicated? Reminds me of the love contract from the Chappelle Show.

This is a serious topic that absolutely needs to be constantly worked on. But I think people blow it way out of proportion. You hear that guys go around in college and rape women. But are we talking about an epidemic here? Or is it just assumed it happens? My university is a big party school, yet we never hear about these types of things happening. There is a stigma associated with a certain frat, but is it true? The numbers say no. I think the fact that male college students are deemed horny little monsters is wrong and disrespectful. Are there bad apples? Of course! Just like with anything. But I hang out with some frat guys who would take a guy out back and take care of a guy attempting to take advantage of a girl before letting close to anything happening. Rape is a touchy case and it ruins lives. But we have to stop demonizing men because they have a Y chromosome and deal with the jerks that perform the act.
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:31 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 40):
But we today consider feminists to be the ones who act like equality isn't the truth, women are superior.

"We?" Who's we? I don't automatically lump everyone described as a feminist into men-hating womyn domination world supporters. There are plenty (majority) of reasonable feminists who describe themselves as feminists. I don't agree with all of their positions (but that doesn't make me anti-woman) but I disagree with your claim.

Among some groups of people, mostly sexist/semi-sexist people, feminist has a negative connotation, but I wouldn't say that's what normal people think when they hear feminist...
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:25 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 39):
"I'm not OK with this"

That means No. That is not the same as saying nothing and continuing with the act as if nothing is wrong.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 39):
Similarly, in either case, if you have sex with the girl and she doesn't try to stop you but tells you afterwards something like, "I regret doing that, I didn't want to, but I was afraid to say no" (it happens, trust me) then you've suddenly set yourself up for an accusation.

If she showed no signs of resisting and continued in the act like as a normal person does, engaging with the person showing no signs of distress I don't see how this is rape unless she was intoxicated or under the influence of any other substances.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 39):
Even if she had said yes explicitly and then changed her mind afterward (for whatever reason), she can still turn around and accuse you (happens to people all over the world, every day).

And that is all she is doing, accusing you. If she explicitly said yes and during the duration of the act showed no signs of distress, never once tried to end the act it is not rape. I don't care what her "feelings" were after the act. If she felt fine doing it at the time but then after the act felt like it was a mistake or regrets it that is not rape, that is just regretting having sex with someone. Anyone who claims rape from that should be charged with perjury and claiming false accusations to law enforcement.

Both my answers above assume she had nothing to feel threaten about. There was no weapon, no threat of physical force, no previous history of physical force or violence or even mental abuse. This also assumes the person is not in a position or power of black mail. It also of course assumes both parties are of legal consenting age and the one making the rape claim was not intoxicated or under the influence of other substance which would impair their judgment or physical abilities.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 39):
In this scenario, did he rape her?

Yes. Because:

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 39):
he's got his girlfriend (or wife) by the arm and is leading her into their bedroom
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 39):
He undresses her and proceeds to have his way with her, driven by anger
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 39):
She cries through the act
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 39):
she is obviously distressed and upset

Of course that is rape. Like I said previously signs of distress, physical force or intimidation, mental abuse or intimidation or even just a history of any type of abuse.

But for a female to decide afterwards that she regrets having sex with someone, for no real reason. Even though she proceeded in the act without any of the previously mentioned signs or without trying to stop the act. That is not rape and in no way should it ever be considered rape IMO. Just being accused of rape has some very very serious consequences for the person being accused of the crime.
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:20 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
"We?" Who's we? I don't automatically lump everyone described as a feminist into men-hating womyn domination world supporters. There are plenty (majority) of reasonable feminists who describe themselves as feminists. I don't agree with all of their positions (but that doesn't make me anti-woman) but I disagree with your claim.

I meant society. Try going around and asking people (especially men) what they think about feminists. The thought often goes to the militant side.

Quoting flymia (Reply 42):
Just being accused of rape has some very very serious consequences for the person being accused of the crime.

Especially this day in age. Once that hits the internet that person is screwed for life. Hardly something anybody deserves unless it was truly rape and not regret.
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ltbewr
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:37 am

There has been a spirited discussion here as I have seen with other articles on this subject, that is good. We need to have this to bring out the issue and figure out ways to reduce such rapes.

Alcohol seems to be a common thread in these published rapes of teen and college women. Reducing the use of alcohol by those under 21 and especially if under 18 would have benefits well beyond reducing rapes of young women. Reasonable penalties, not 'zero tolerance' including community service, suspension from sports and other school activities for underage alcohol use is already done at some high schools and should be expanded including into college for those drunk on campus and college communities. Those that see illegal alcohol or drug use or possible rape or other assaults and call the cops should be protected and not prosecuted. Some states already have such protective laws, they should be expanded. Young men and women need to realize that drinking is a responsibility, and yes, shouldn't if underage, shouldn't go to parties with underage drinking or drink at all if not sure of the source of the beverage or drink too much. Families must set good examples against underage and irresponsible by any age of use of alcohol in their homes along with reasoned and strong enforcement of host liability civil and criminal laws.

We need a huge revision of 'sex ed' in our schools. We need a educational program that includes the schools, the community, to some extent religious institutions, police and law enforcement and families from grade school to let people know the social and legal responsibility of sex including defining what is rape. End the so-called 'abstinence only' sex ed in our schools, we need to have programs that encourage sex as a part of love, not a prize for the sports star, and reduce peer pressure to have sex at high risk parties. Parents must also be strong as to their teens putting themselves at sexual risk, including going to illegal parties with alcohol.

Law enforcement, justice and health care systems must have well run programs to go after alleged rapist, to help woman victims while not going over the line for false claims. Communities also have to support police, make sure enforcement is fair and no one despite their parents power and money or lack of it meaning the difference of enforcing rape and underage drinking laws.

In the end, a number of small but important act can improve the lives of millions of young women from the risk of rape.
 
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:16 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 8):
Actually the opposite. Many sexual encounters which are rape are "excused" by a culture that blames the women for being drunk etc.

Yup. There a lot of stereotypes about what is supposedly not rape that need to be addressed on a wide and social level. I think this is the biggest part of the problem.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 9):
There have been many cases where the alleged perpetrators were tried in the media, before in court, and their cases were bungled by the Prosecuting attorney's. Take a read of "Duke Lacross"

I do believe that that DA wound up disbarred and charged (very rightly so) over the issue. I remember following that case and being amazed that it went to the level it did. What an ego!

Quoting casinterest (Reply 9):
However Education and awareness are key, and I think that there need to be real discussions about rape in sex ed classes as young as middle school.

Indeed quite so. The things we are taught young tend to, for better or worse, stay with us. Just as an example, I've never done cocaine. Though my profession completely bars this anyway, there was a time when that was not true, and I had every opportunity to snort up. The reason I didn't was that where I went to school, Drug Education began in the 4th grade. A lot of it I didn't retain, but I do remember hearing about an NBA player who dropped dead on his first use of the product when it interacted with a previously undiagnosed heart condition. Now, I honestly can't tell you how factual or not that account, but things heard young stay with people in ways that a lot of other things do not. The story may well have been BS, but I did carry a completely irrational fear of dropping dead from that.

I think this is something that can be adapted to our younger generations WRT rape culture and the relative acceptability of sex with non-volunteering parties due to alcohol/drugs, etc. I fully agree that it is just too late (as evidenced by a lot replies here) to re-educate everyone, but a strong, progressive replacement of the present generational complacency will do wonders for this issue, no doubt.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 12):
The underlying cause is cultural, not solely a result of parenting or education. Pornography obviously is to blame for some of it, but I won't go so far as to condemn it as a cause.

I don't even think Pornography is to blame for any of it. I may be well out on my own for this one, but given how industrialized Pornography has become, along with the rest of the entertainment industry, it's hard to look at that as something different to any other supply/demand situation. Porn doesn't make the Rape Culture, it's just a reflection of that and what we want.

Quoting flymia (Reply 13):
Look no farther than the "summer of sharks" or the year of "airline emergency landings" the media can make anything look like a epidemic. How about that crazy swine flu?

I'll buy that. Where I differ is that I do not see a specific harm in it. Rape is a very real occurrence without regard to how much it's actually happening. If folks institutionally believe raping someone will bring a lot of attention, this cannot be a bad thing.

Quoting flymia (Reply 13):
It is a factor. It is not an excuse for the accused rapist but you can't say its not a factor. Everything is a factor.

Disagree. She doesn't get raped because she got drunk, she got raped because she got raped.

Quoting flymia (Reply 13):

That is like saying I should leave my doors unlocked, and not turn my alarm on because the burden of not being robbed is not on me its on the robbers. Lets me real here. A woman's chances of being raped is significantly more than any man has the chance of being raped.

And yet we don't treat home invasion victims like they had it coming.



Quoting flymia (Reply 13):

I tell my girlfriend to try not to walk alone in a parking lot at night, or go to an ATM alone at night. Myself, I would. You think this is wrong advice?

Yes, it is. You should not be doing those things alone either. There are a lot of things that "equalize" in those situations where any advantage you have as a man would be quickly erased.

Quoting flymia (Reply 13):
We should not fight statistics just because we want to be "fair" the world is not fair.

You're damned straight it's not. Unlikely it ever will be. Nevertheless, that does not alleviate our responsibility as a society to better these things were we can.

There was a time when dying in childbirth was a common thing for women. That wasn't fair either. Think we shouldn't have done anything about it, or been ok with the status quo?

Quoting flymia (Reply 13):
I know the above cases are exceptions not the norm. But every case is different and that is why sometimes we can't prosecute every claim.

And that's actually good to know in its own way. I don't think anyone here wants a lynch mob or people like Naifong still in office either.

Quoting lewis (Reply 17):
And before you compare that to a rape, it can be a traumatic experience as well and can even result to my death.

It very well can be. We just shouldn't approach it in such a way that suggests "you were being stupid, of course that happened."

Quoting lewis (Reply 21):
Is there really a law that would consider what you described as rape? The sexual act itself was consensual.

It can easily be rape even if it started out consensual. If you go where she didn't want to and asked you stop and you continue on, then yes, it's a rape.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 22):
Which is exactly what the nutjob feminists want. In their world, every man is a rapist and every woman is a victim!

You mean like every Muslim wants you beheaded for being an infidel? Just because Al-Queda issued a Fatwa over the issue?

Not every Feminist wants you cock on a pike. In fact, most would be quite happy with being treated as equals in society at large. You know, kind of like the way you would expect to.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 25):

Define modifying behavior? Are you talking about not drinking? Are you talking about changing the way you dress?

Literally anything she would have to do that you would not.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 25):
How is "wishing a woman doesn't get raped" different from telling a woman to watch her drink in a club and not to get black out drunk? I think the difference is obvious

Because you are transferring the onus of not being raped to her. I realize you're about to say otherwise to hedge that back a bit, but as long as you feel the need to tell her to adapt to higher odds of being raped, you're contributing to the problem.

This is a systemic issue that will not be resolved by what you tell your wife or little sister. And by telling women to deal with it on an individual level like that, you're telling them that that's the way things are and that you're not interested in changing it.

Again, I realize that you're about to say otherwise, but you need to take a step back and realize how that comes across to a woman. That's easier said than done, and therefore may represent a gender communication issue, but having good intentions doesn't count much against that.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 25):
My advice does NOT put guilt on the victim, I don't think, and if that does, I'm sorry.

There's no need to be sorry; no one asked you to. But it is unrealistic to think that what you're saying should come across in a different way.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 26):

For the record I plan on telling my daughter ALL these things.

Not because I'm sexist but because I want her to be safe in the world as it exists today, not how it is supposed to be or hopefully will be 20 years from now.

And that's not a crime. There is a base instinct that tells me to do the same despite my position (I'm not a very hands off kinda guy where raising my kids are concerned). The only difference is that I add what to do if she is indeed overpowered. Bite him in the neck. Until you feel your teeth meet.

If I'm going to be hypocritical, might as well go whole-hog.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 29):
The VAST majority of feminists and normal people have a very reasonable definition of rape.

I would tend to agree with the caveat that one really can't use the term Vast majority of feminists with any authority. It's such a broad (seriously, no pun intended) group that it's an effective impossibility to really speak for any of them. Gloria Stynem wouldn't have much in common with Anna Sarkesian, etc...

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 35):
Absolutely. It's incumbent on the pilot to make sure that he's "cleared for takeoff"...silence from the tower ain't it!

Unless it's the late 1970s and you work for KLM...   

Quoting flymia (Reply 42):
If she explicitly said yes and during the duration of the act showed no signs of distress, never once tried to end the act it is not rape. I don't care what her "feelings" were after the act.

Or maybe if you want to avoid that happening, you should just make sure not to put yourself in that situation. Be careful what kind of woman you take home.

But if the worst does happen, you can always be drug through the legal system to clear your name. It will be an expensive and humiliating process and I think it's safe to say a lot of folks will look askance at you from here on out. But that's what happens when you take foolish chances and fail to take into account how badly her "feelings" after the fact can mess you up in real terms.

In any case, if you didn't want that to happen, you really shouldn't have brought such a drama queen home.

See what I did there?



For the record, I do actually agree with you that abuse of process is a very real offense and should not be treated with kid gloves. In fact, were the universe my thing to run, false accusations would be met with the same punishments the accused would have suffered upon conviction. Don't know how that is IRL, but there you go.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 44):


We need a huge revision of 'sex ed' in our schools. We need a educational program that includes the schools, the community, to some extent religious institutions, police and law enforcement and families from grade school to let people know the social and legal responsibility of sex including defining what is rape. End the so-called 'abstinence only' sex ed in our schools,

Yup. Kids need to be educated from an early start.
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 43):
I meant society. Try going around and asking people (especially men) what they think about feminists. The thought often goes to the militant side.

Well I disagree with your claim but it's probably impossible to prove or disprove. I see negative connotations usually with only right or far-right wingers

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 45):
Yup. There a lot of stereotypes about what is supposedly not rape that need to be addressed on a wide and social level. I think this is the biggest part of the problem.

I think many are, slowly, and I think progress is being made fortunately

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 45):
Literally anything she would have to do that you would not.
Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 45):
Again, I realize that you're about to say otherwise, but you need to take a step back and realize how that comes across to a woman.

Well, if that's your burden and if saying "watch your drink" and "don't get black out drunk" to a woman (OR a man, because it applies to them too) then fine, I'm a "victim blamer." Not only do I vehemently disagree, I think people like you add to the problem. If telling people this generic, non-gender based, rational advice is somehow blaming a victim, I'd reassess that logic.

Two more points, otherwise we'll have to just strongly disagree:

1. I'm not going to a rape victim after the fact and saying "oh, well you should've watched your drink!" Absolutely not. I'm talking about education in schools to prevent something like that. Don't think I'm micromanaging the actions of the victim. That is irrelevant, rape is rape

2. Just a question, because I really think we are closer in agreement than we think--are you opposed to telling high schoolers generic advice, and just for the sake of this question I'll narrow it down to this single question--to girls AND boys: "If you are at a party, you should watch your drink."

That is mostly the extent of it. I'm not talking about woman indoctrination classes
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
I think many are, slowly, and I think progress is being made fortunately

Too slowly, but yes, it is. The problem is that there is a good deal of pushback, and those opinions are overdue for marginalization.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
If telling people this generic, non-gender based, rational advice is somehow blaming a victim, I'd reassess that logic.

You keep tieing that advice to rape, and that's the problem, and why you aren't helping anything. Again, I'm sure your intentions are on the level & all, but the way this comes across ties law-abiding behavior to being assaulted. With that in mind, I'm not sure you're familiar with how the mind of a rape victim works (not that I would expect you to be), and why this is particularly awful.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
Don't think I'm micromanaging the actions of the victim.

Ok, well if that's the case you would need to find a different way to express that. To a rational person, what you've said thus far points elsewhere.

As I said, I'm sure you mean well, but the fact is that we're talking about people who simply won't see things the way you will. As I've said before, I don't claim to have all the answers, but I know that telling women they should modify their behavior for these reasons is essentially telling them to accommodate the habits of rapists. And I think you don't see that.

Just a hint where dealing with anything involving communications (especially across gender lines on very sensitive issues). Why you say matters not at all. It's what people hear that counts.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
-are you opposed to telling high schoolers generic advice, and just for the sake of this question I'll narrow it down to this single question--to girls AND boys: "If you are at a party, you should watch your drink."

Sure. Just don't tie it to being raped. I'm sure you can find plenty of other reasons to say that. In any case, it's not as though women don't know what can happen (this is also something I think you may not know) anyway.
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 47):
You keep tieing that advice to rape

I already pointed out earlier that this is advice in general, not just for getting raped. Getting blacked out drunk can get you in trouble in many more ways than being raped. I do find it hard to not tie "watching your drinks" with rape, but I don't care

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 47):
To a rational person, what you've said thus far points elsewhere.

And why are you able to claim the term "rational?" I know plenty of rational people that agree with me and find it absurd that telling someone to "watch your drinks" is equated to victim blame. I find your position somewhat irrational. I don't think there is some fixed point of rationality either of us can compare it to, there is obviously a lot of opinion

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 47):
telling women they should modify their behavior for these reasons is essentially telling them to accommodate the habits of rapists.

For the 10th time, I've said it's generic advice for BOTH men and women, but again, me telling you to lock your doors at night = me blaming burglar victims? I find that absurd


Being raped is traumatic, I know, and I don't pretend to know what it's like. I'm not saying for anyone to analyze a victims actions and telling her what to do next time. But at the same time, if she overhears people like me telling high school students to cover their drinks (to avoid rape or just in general) and she gets all upset, sorry if I sound insensitive, but she needs to deal with it--I'm not gonna keep my mouth shut and potentially have a bunch of high school students get in trouble themselves. The entire universe doesn't revolve around a rape victim... if giving others advice offends, get over it. I draw a line.

Maybe a better question--how would you deal with it? Minus the working on the perpetrator side (ie: stop violence against women.) How do you go about helping prevent it from the victim side? How do you tell them to lock their doors at night, so to speak?
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oly720man
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RE: Dealing With Teen/College Rape In The USA

Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
2. Just a question, because I really think we are closer in agreement than we think--are you opposed to telling high schoolers generic advice, and just for the sake of this question I'll narrow it down to this single question--to girls AND boys: "If you are at a party, you should watch your drink."

Is "watch your drink" being construed as an order or some useful or common sense advice?



To widen things a bit from high-school parties and drinking, teenage girls in certain areas are being educated about sexual exploitation.

http://www.love146.org/prevention-education/

Typically, we work with a classroom of high school students four times over the course of one month. These sessions equip students to understand the realities of human trafficking, better protect themselves and their peers from risk, and get help. At the same time they are being challenged to rebel against those who groom them to be buyers and sellers of sex and rethink a culture where the word “pimp” is a compliment and “ho” is a joke.

It's all very well to want to live in a world where you should be free to do what you want without fear of being sexually abused, but the reality is that there are lots of men, and some women, who want girls or boys either for personal sexual gratification or exploitation and kids need to be aware that there are some nasty people out there who will do many things to try and catch them. Forewarned is forearmed.

In the UK last year there was an anti-rape advert/campaign that ran on tv for a while to hopefully make people think.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/17238674

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gEftWCG5Ow
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