JoePatroni707
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CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:09 pm

California will begin to require new cars to be fitted with license plates from delivery to purchaser. Currently California allows for the operation of a motor vehicle for a period of up to 6 months with a temporary report of sale ( a small sticker affixed to the lower right hand corner or the front windshield). With more and more automated tolls the state is losing millions of dollars in lost tolls as the current system does not allow for tracking of vehicles currently operation under the temporary provision.

I personally did not affix my plates for almost 6 months before I finally put on my plates. Steve Jobs (Apple Computers) used this provision to never put plates on his car, he would simply buy a new car every 6 months.
 
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Tugger
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
California will begin to require new cars to be fitted with license plates from delivery to purchaser. Currently California allows for the operation of a motor vehicle for a period of up to 6 months with a temporary report of sale ( a small sticker affixed to the lower right hand corner or the front windshield). With more and more automated tolls the state is losing millions of dollars in lost tolls as the current system does not allow for tracking of vehicles currently operation under the temporary provision.

I personally did not affix my plates for almost 6 months before I finally put on my plates. Steve Jobs (Apple Computers) used this provision to never put plates on his car, he would simply buy a new car every 6 months.

I am fine with the change. Just closes a loophole, no big deal. Some in my own family have kept that temporary front windshield sticker in place for a couple years (they had the plates in the trunk.

Tugg
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JoePatroni707
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:30 pm

If I had my temp sticker still I would not have gotten my red light ticket either. Good thing I still have my temp sticker, its going back on and plates are coming off.
 
lewis
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:45 pm

I agree with the measure. I see a lot of people driving around without plates, I even know people that keep their plates off on purpose, which can cause a lot of problems in the long run. I just don't get why some are so much against license plates on cars. Is it a way for them to stick it to the man or something? Then the same people turn around and tell you how much they don't care about the NSA snooping in their communications or how necessary it is to be radiated every time you want to travel by air.
 
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 3):
I just don't get why some are so much against license plates on cars.

They are ugly and. . .

Quoting lewis (Reply 3):
Then the same people turn around and tell you how much they don't care about the NSA snooping in their communications or how necessary it is to be radiated every time you want to travel by air.

. . . privacy issues.


Oh, and they are hardly necessary anyways. It's only real purpose is tax related.
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JoePatroni707
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:59 pm

My friend did not put the plates on her Mercedes E63 for almost 18 months. He reason was to "show off" that people would think she "just got it". She got stopped once for not signaling on a lane change and the cop did not cite her for no plates but gave her a stern warning. And yes she got out of the no signal ticket too...
 
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Tugger
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:08 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
Quoting lewis (Reply 3):
I just don't get why some are so much against license plates on cars.

They are ugly and. . .
[...]
Oh, and they are hardly necessary anyways. It's only real purpose is tax related.

I personally think we should go to an RFID system, that would be very simple and would vastly reduce out of date registration issues, no need for cameras, etc.

Tugg
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ACDC8
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:08 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
They are ugly and

Especially the front   

I've always wondered about cars with no plates running around LA ... now I know LOL! Is California the only state that allows one to run without plates for a certain period of time?
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:09 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 7):
Is California the only state that allows one to run without plates for a certain period of time?

Nope. And others have these paper temporary plates that also don't do much for those auto-toll systems.
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lewis
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:14 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):

They are ugly and. . .

I can see that, but...

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):

Oh, and they are hardly necessary anyways. It's only real purpose is tax related.

I am pretty sure your opinion would change if someone caused an accident and fled the scene without anyone being able to identify the exact car. Worse, what if there is a hit and run involving one of your loved ones? Would you still be OK with the perpetrator's privacy?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:23 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
It's only real purpose is tax related.

    And law enforcement related???
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PPVRA
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:33 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 9):
I am pretty sure your opinion would change if someone caused an accident and fled the scene without anyone being able to identify the exact car. Worse, what if there is a hit and run involving one of your loved ones? Would you still be OK with the perpetrator's privacy?

Most of the time, people stop in an accident. The few that run away can be tracked down with investigative work.

I am not in favor of forcing everybody out there to weaken/surrender their privacy, including a loved one's privacy, because a few people might run away from justice.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):
    And law enforcement related???

Take away the tag and they won't pull you over for driving without a tag or an expired tag.

Police use more your DL's number and the car's VIN number.

[Edited 2013-10-30 09:36:34]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
lewis
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:44 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
I am not in favor of forcing everybody out there to weaken/surrender their privacy, including a loved one's privacy, because a few people might run away from justice.

What sort of privacy do you lose by having a license plate exactly? So far I have seen comments about avoiding being caught in speed cameras and avoiding fines. Do you mean lose the option to circumvent the law when you talk about privacy?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
Most of the time, people stop in an accident.

I did mention hit and runs. The point is to catch the ones that do not stop, obviously. And many more reasons for law enforcement.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
The few that run away can be tracked down with investigative work.

Which costs more and is not always successful. I have seen too many times the alerts being posted about vehicles that the police is looking for. An alert for a "black Acura" in LA would not be really helpful.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:47 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
Take away the tag and they won't pull you over for driving without a tag or an expired tag.

Police use more your DL's number and the car's VIN number.

Security cameras seeing a car drive away from a murder scene will see your tag not your DL or VIN
Citizens seeing a car snatch a kid will see your tag not your DL or VIN
A car that is involved in a chase that gets away will have its tag seen not its DL or VIN
Amber Alerts substantially narrow down a "White Ford" to its tag and not its DL or VIN
Police on the lookout for a suspect will be looking for your tag and not your DL or VIN

There are plenty of uses for tags that DLs and VINs can't fulfill
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PPVRA
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:51 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
What sort of privacy do you lose by having a license plate exactly? So far I have seen comments about avoiding being caught in speed cameras and avoiding fines. Do you mean lose the option to circumvent the law when you talk about privacy?

You can be identified and tracked.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
Which costs more and is not always successful. I have seen too many times the alerts being posted about vehicles that the police is looking for. An alert for a "black Acura" in LA would not be really helpful.

People don't always get tag numbers, either.

Think of it this way - tag or no tag, the accident has already occurred and your loved one isn't in any more danger if the motorist that ran way isn't caught. But the privacy issue is exposing yourself to potential criminal activity and possibly an accident ("hey, that's Princess Diana's cars - lets drive next to her and say hello, maybe take some pics!").
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:52 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):

Refer to my reply above, #15.
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
People don't always get tag numbers, either.

And sometimes they do. What's your point?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Think of it this way - tag or no tag, the accident has already occurred and your loved one isn't in any more danger if the motorist that ran way isn't caught.

And? One, it's good to catch that person and prevent that person from committing any more crimes, two, there are plenty more reasons than just hit and runs.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
But the privacy issue is exposing yourself to potential criminal activity and possibly an accident ("hey, that's Princess Diana's cars - lets drive next to her and say hello, maybe take some pics!").

How often does this happen?!

I'm all for privacy but there are reasonable things (like license plates) that society if fine with. If society decides against it with a majority, so be it. I don't think they're unconstitutional or anything
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
Oh, and they are hardly necessary anyways. It's only real purpose is tax related.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
Most of the time, people stop in an accident. The few that run away can be tracked down with investigative work.

Yeah, please go find the white car for me. Exactly what privacy are you losing by having license plates? Regular citizens can't access the information, and if you're afraid of big brother, cops can find your information anyways when you get stopped.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 18):
Yeah, please go find the white car for me. Exactly what privacy are you losing by having license plates? Regular citizens can't access the information, and if you're afraid of big brother, cops can find your information anyways when you get stopped.

It really confuses me, because then police would have to stop all white Ford F250s and look at the VIN numbers (a real violation of privacy) or be a completely ineffective police force. PPVRA--real life isn't CSI. You can't just give the police a description of a white pickup truck and expect them to find it. Crime is already hard to solve, harder than people realize, and there are a TON of crimes that go unsolved already. Cops aren't magical
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
It really confuses me, because then police would have to stop all white Ford F250s and look at the VIN numbers (a real violation of privacy) or be a completely ineffective police force. PPVRA--real life isn't CSI. You can't just give the police a description of a white pickup truck and expect them to find it. Crime is already hard to solve, harder than people realize, and there are a TON of crimes that go unsolved already. Cops aren't magical

Exactly. Have I found hit and run vehicles without getting a plate, yes...but it makes it a lot harder and more work that could be better spent doing something else.
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JoePatroni707
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:18 pm

Understandably dealers are opposed to this new law. If plates have to be affixed before delivery, then it could delay the delivery of the car to the customer for a few days before the plates can be processed. This could especially be true if the car is sold say late on a Friday evening, having to wait till Monday for the DMV to open to process the application.
 
lewis
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:21 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
You can be identified and tracked.

So? Driving a car is not a right, it is a privilege (oh gotta love that usual soundbite). Don't want to be identified and tracked? Walk or take the bus.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
("hey, that's Princess Diana's cars - lets drive next to her and say hello, maybe take some pics!")

Yes, I am sure all people have the princess issue. Even celebrities cannot really hide, paparazzis can follow them from their house to wherever they go. They don't drive around looking for celebrity plates.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Think of it this way - tag or no tag, the accident has already occurred and your loved one isn't in any more danger if the motorist that ran way isn't caught.

You are kidding right? That is the most absurd thing I have heard this week. So what is done is done, no need to cry over spilled milk. Let them go away.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):

I am not in favor of forcing everybody out there to weaken/surrender their privacy, including a loved one's privacy, because a few people might run away from justice.

All other first world countries don't have a problem with tagging cars with license plates.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):

You can be identified and tracked.

So you can be tracked by your credit/debit card usage, you can be tracked via your cell phone, in some cities with security cameras and facial recognition your movements can be tracked, you're being tracked all the time so what's the big deal about plates?
 
vikkyvik
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
Police use more your DL's number and the car's VIN number.

Yeah, let's put those up on the Amber Alert boards and see how successful we are.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Think of it this way - tag or no tag, the accident has already occurred and your loved one isn't in any more danger if the motorist that ran way isn't caught.

Perhaps. But other people could be in considerable danger, especially if said driver has a history of reckless driving and/or hit-and-runs.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
Good thing I still have my temp sticker, its going back on and plates are coming off.

Why? As some sort of protest?
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
If I had my temp sticker still I would not have gotten my red light ticket either. Good thing I still have my temp sticker, its going back on and plates are coming off.

Maybe don't run red lights then?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
The few that run away can be tracked down with investigative work.

1) This comes as a cost to the taxpayer.
2) Success is not guaranteed...and given the low importance of hit-and-runs where nobody is hurt, success is unlikely.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
I am not in favor of forcing everybody out there to weaken/surrender their privacy, including a loved one's privacy, because a few people might run away from justice.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
You can be identified and tracked.

What would you be doing that would cause someone to even want to track you? Further, how many times has a person been harmed because they were tracked down by their license plate?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
"hey, that's Princess Diana's cars - lets drive next to her and say hello, maybe take some pics!"

This example doesn't make sense. License plates have nothing to do with that accident.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 24):
Yeah, let's put those up on the Amber Alert boards and see how successful we are.

  
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PPVRA
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
People don't always get tag numbers, either.

And sometimes they do. What's your point?

You have to read that reply in light of Lewis' comments. My point was that license plates don't always lead to capture of the person who caused an accident. Case in point, that man that recently admitted to killing a man on a video posted online.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Think of it this way - tag or no tag, the accident has already occurred and your loved one isn't in any more danger if the motorist that ran way isn't caught.

And? One, it's good to catch that person and prevent that person from committing any more crimes, two, there are plenty more reasons than just hit and runs.

AFAIK, most hit and runs are the results of accidents, not intentional crimes. I don't see significant risks in not solving the case right away.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
How often does this happen?!

Very hard to tell. For sure it's a lot more often than it gets reported, rather than the other way around.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Security cameras seeing a car drive away from a murder scene will see your tag not your DL or VIN

I doubt security cameras can really see tag numbers. They are not angled to capture tags. At least the programs I've watched on TV, you can tell the car color, model and the suspect. Not the tag.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Citizens seeing a car snatch a kid will see your tag not your DL or VIN

Can you cite an example where this happened? I think criminals are more careful than that.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
A car that is involved in a chase that gets away will have its tag seen not its DL or VIN

Aren't most car chases due to car theft? That's not gonna help you ID the driver.

In any case, unless a violent crime has been committed, I am against car chases. They are too dangerous.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Amber Alerts substantially narrow down a "White Ford" to its tag and not its DL or VIN

Don't know enough about AMBER Alerts. But such is the nature of privacy, sometimes it complicates things.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Police on the lookout for a suspect will be looking for your tag and not your DL or VIN

Would be nice to have an actual police officer chime in, but I have a feeling the check out and car that matches model and color description. After all, you can swap tags pretty easily.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
lewis
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:41 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):

Would be nice to have an actual police officer chime in, but I have a feeling the check out and car that matches model and color description. After all, you can swap tags pretty easily.

Check out replies 18 & 20.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Can you cite an example where this happened? I think criminals are more careful than that.

That is actually what some amber alerts are about. They are looking for cars that have committed a crime like an abduction or a hit and run. License plate AND description are provided. As I said, looking for a black sedan or even a black Jetta in a big city is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

[Edited 2013-10-30 10:44:57]
 
PPVRA
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:01 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 18):
Yeah, please go find the white car for me. Exactly what privacy are you losing by having license plates? Regular citizens can't access the information, and if you're afraid of big brother, cops can find your information anyways when you get stopped.

Anyone who sees me walking into my car can take down my tag info and use it to identify and track me any time. That's a simple fact.

Quoting lewis (Reply 22):
So? Driving a car is not a right, it is a privilege (oh gotta love that usual soundbite). Don't want to be identified and tracked? Walk or take the bus.

Don't mix up issues. Driving a car is not a right to the extent you have to pay for the cost of it, it is absolutely a right to the extent the government has no right telling you whether you can or cannot do it.

Quoting lewis (Reply 22):
Yes, I am sure all people have the princess issue. Even celebrities cannot really hide, paparazzis can follow them from their house to wherever they go. They don't drive around looking for celebrity plates.

Don't make assumptions about people's lives based on a single example.

Quoting lewis (Reply 22):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Think of it this way - tag or no tag, the accident has already occurred and your loved one isn't in any more danger if the motorist that ran way isn't caught.

You are kidding right? That is the most absurd thing I have heard this week. So what is done is done, no need to cry over spilled milk. Let them go away.

I never said "let them go away". I said don't expose yourself to more risk unnecessarily.



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 20):
Exactly. Have I found hit and run vehicles without getting a plate, yes...but it makes it a lot harder and more work that could be better spent doing something else.

I am not in favor of making police work easier by weakening the privacy of an entire population.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
All other first world countries don't have a problem with tagging cars with license plates.

Sure, they invented it and people got used to them.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
So you can be tracked by your credit/debit card usage, you can be tracked via your cell phone, in some cities with security cameras and facial recognition your movements can be tracked, you're being tracked all the time so what's the big deal about plates?

It's not like anyone can use those thing to identify and track you. Credit card companies aren't going to share that info with anyone coming through their doors.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 24):
Yeah, let's put those up on the Amber Alert boards and see how successful we are.

Never said to do this.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 24):
Perhaps. But other people could be in considerable danger, especially if said driver has a history of reckless driving and/or hit-and-runs.

No need to catch the guy right away.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
1) This comes as a cost to the taxpayer.

At least it's not a privacy cost. Hard to put a price tag on that.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
2) Success is not guaranteed...and given the low importance of hit-and-runs where nobody is hurt, success is unlikely.

Success is not guaranteed if nobody writes down the tag number, either.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
What would you be doing that would cause someone to even want to track you? Further, how many times has a person been harmed because they were tracked down by their license plate?

1. You don't have to be doing anything illegal or in any way wrong for someone to track you down and commit a crime
2. I don't know how many times criminals, stalkers, etc use tag numbers to identify and track their victims. Probably a very hard figure to determine.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
"hey, that's Princess Diana's cars - lets drive next to her and say hello, maybe take some pics!"

This example doesn't make sense. License plates have nothing to do with that accident.

So? License plates make it easier to identify and track people. . . leading to higher chances of an accident happening.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:07 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 27):
That is actually what some amber alerts are about. They are looking for cars that have committed a crime like an abduction or a hit and run. License plate AND description are provided. As I said, looking for a black sedan or even a black Jetta in a big city is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

The example given involved witnesses to an abduction. My answer was in response to this specific circumstance.

If the dad of a little girl abducts her, you can infer the tag number from the missing car in the garage.

[Edited 2013-10-30 11:08:27]
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lewis
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:09 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
it is absolutely a right to the extent the government has no right telling you whether you can or cannot do it.

Nope, the government sure as hell has a right to tell you whether you can or cannot operate a vehicle. Try driving around without a driver's license or with an unregistered vehicle (plates or no plates on).

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):

Anyone who sees me walking into my car can take down my tag info and use it to identify and track me any time.

So because someone knows that you drive the car with license ABC123, they can track you AT ANY TIME? How would they do that exactly? I don't know of any way I can find out where car ABC123 is at any time, unless of course I run into you randomly.

If they want to track you, they can see you walking to your vehicle sans plates and follow you around very easily as well. If they see you walk to a car, all they have to do is follow the car you just entered.
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:10 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
AFAIK, most hit and runs are the results of accidents, not intentional crimes.

An intentional crime is committed the second someone flees the scene of an accident.
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lewis
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:10 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Citizens seeing a car snatch a kid will see your tag not your DL or VIN

Can you cite an example where this happened? I think criminals are more careful than that.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 29):

The example given involved witnesses to an abduction. My answer was in response to this specific circumstance.

If the dad of a little girl abducts her, you can infer the tag number from the missing car in the garage.

Huh?
 
vikkyvik
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 24):
Yeah, let's put those up on the Amber Alert boards and see how successful we are.

Never said to do this.

I know you didn't. What's easier to track in an Amber Alert for citizens and police? License plate #, or VIN? I suppose we could stop every silver Civic in LA to check the VIN, but I think some would view that as a larger invasion of privacy. Not to mention terribly inefficient.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 24):
Perhaps. But other people could be in considerable danger, especially if said driver has a history of reckless driving and/or hit-and-runs.

No need to catch the guy right away.

There's no need to catch most criminals right away. I'd bet the vast percentage of them don't immediately go out and commit another crime. They should still be caught sooner rather than later.
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Tugger
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
I am not in favor of forcing everybody out there to weaken/surrender their privacy,

A license plate made up of essentially randomly assigned digits does not intrude on ones privacy.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
Take away the tag and they won't pull you over for driving without a tag or an expired tag.

That is why I prefer the RFID to be added, no need to pull over anyone. If a police car (or other enforcement entity) is equipped properly and detects an out of date RFID/registration a ticket could be automatically issued (or the officer could be notified so they could do it). Simple, no wasting anyone's time.

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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:18 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
You have to read that reply in light of Lewis' comments. My point was that license plates don't always lead to capture of the person who caused an accident. Case in point, that man that recently admitted to killing a man on a video posted online.

Again, I agree. They don't always lead to capture. So? They often do lead to capture

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
AFAIK, most hit and runs are the results of accidents, not intentional crimes. I don't see significant risks in not solving the case right away.

Agreed. What does the length of time before you look for the suspect have to do with license plates?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Very hard to tell. For sure it's a lot more often than it gets reported, rather than the other way around.

Well until I see some hard numbers, I'm not buying it

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
I doubt security cameras can really see tag numbers. They are not angled to capture tags. At least the programs I've watched on TV, you can tell the car color, model and the suspect. Not the tag.

Again, some can, some can't.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Can you cite an example where this happened? I think criminals are more careful than that.

You really overestimate the common criminal then. Crime is so easy to get away with, it really is, if you cover your tracks. One of the police's best friends is the lack of intellect from a criminal. I digress... I'm about to go to lunch now and don't have time to pull up any cases, I can if you insist. I do remember hearing of a few. I was mainly arguing for the whole Amber Alert argument, it gives out tag numbers so you don't have a million people calling in about a white F250. Granted, I can't tell you how many of those plates were seen by witnesses and how many were linked to the suspect (without having seen the plates)

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
In any case, unless a violent crime has been committed, I am against car chases. They are too dangerous.

Exactly. A lot of chases are disengaged. I worded it poorly. You can not risk an accident and luckily, the police dash cams pick up the tag number and can put that in the system so the suspect can be tracked down to a certain address or another cop can spot the car. Without tags, you can have some pretty non-descriptive look outs (for a white truck, that's no help)

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
But such is the nature of privacy, sometimes it complicates things.

I agree, I'm just not swayed that having plates is a huge violation of privacy. You are right though, it is a violation of privacy, but we in society have chosen to give up a bit of privacy for the greater good. When it starts to get out of hand, that's when people complain and get the law changed. If 50%+1 think that tags are too much, then so be it

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Would be nice to have an actual police officer chime in, but I have a feeling the check out and car that matches model and color description. After all, you can swap tags pretty easily.

There are several on this forum including KaiGywer according to his profile. I majored in Criminal Justice and did an internship with a police department which admittedly does NOT make me anywhere near an expert, but I know a few things here and there. I try not to say things I am not sure of and cannot back up. Most of license plate hits we had were expired registration, which yes, goes towards your tax theory quite nicely  

And yes, when a car is pulled over we'd pull up the DL and that's usually when things got interesting. But tags do serve an important role in LE even if 95%* of the cases are tax related. Don't discount that 5%*, it goes far to solve crimes

*obviously throwing some numbers out there, it could even be 99%/1% for all I know
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 30):
Nope, the government sure as hell has a right to tell you whether you can or cannot operate a vehicle. Try driving around without a driver's license or with an unregistered vehicle (plates or no plates on).

I am morally opposed to the use of force to prevent someone from driving a car if that person has not committed any crimes. Anyone who does this should be considered the criminal and needs to spend some time in jail.

Quoting lewis (Reply 30):
So because someone knows that you drive the car with license ABC123, they can track you AT ANY TIME? How would they do that exactly? I don't know of any way I can find out where car ABC123 is at any time, unless of course I run into you randomly.

You think the police drives around randomly looking for "White Ford Bronco License ABC123"? Yes they can "crowdsource" through AMBER alerts, but they don't sit in the police station with their arms crossed either.

Criminals can do investigative work, too. If they see your car parked where you work, they know you are not at home. Call in a second criminal and give him the go ahead to burglarize your home. There are many possible examples, including much more ominous ones involving risk of life.

Quoting lewis (Reply 30):
If they want to track you, they can see you walking to your vehicle sans plates and follow you around very easily as well. If they see you walk to a car, all they have to do is follow the car you just entered.

Yes they can. But that's more difficult.
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
You can be identified and tracked.

Should houses also not have address numbers on them? And if not, why not? They are required by code.

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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
I am morally opposed to the use of force to prevent someone from driving a car if that person has not committed any crimes. Anyone who does this should be considered the criminal and needs to spend some time in jail.

A car is like any other heavy vehicle. You need to check specific boxes (health, age) and be qualified to drive it safely. Unless you are advocating that anybody, regardless of their age, health or ability to drive should be allowed to do so.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
You think the police drives around randomly looking for "White Ford Bronco License ABC123"? Yes they can "crowdsource" through AMBER alerts, but they don't sit in the police station with their arms crossed either.

Criminals can do investigative work, too. If they see your car parked where you work, they know you are not at home. Call in a second criminal and give him the go ahead to burglarize your home. There are many possible examples, including much more ominous ones involving risk of life.

That has nothing to do with what I asked you. So you drive car ABC123. You said that by having license plates they can track you any time. How would they track you exactly? Does the license plate have a chip that broadcasts your location at all times? Unless you have the whole city looking for you (thus you are a criminal/have done something very wrong), I don't see how someone can track you.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):

Criminals can do investigative work, too. If they see your car parked where you work, they know you are not at home. Call in a second criminal and give him the go ahead to burglarize your home. There are many possible examples, including much more ominous ones involving risk of life.

They can just as easily pass by your car and check the VIN number. They can also be outside your house to see when you leave. The license plates, or lack thereof, do nothing to prevent that from happening.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):

Quoting lewis (Reply 30):
If they want to track you, they can see you walking to your vehicle sans plates and follow you around very easily as well. If they see you walk to a car, all they have to do is follow the car you just entered.

Yes they can. But that's more difficult.

How so? If I see you walking in a vehicle all I have to do is follow you around. Having plates or not makes absolutely no difference to me.


Other than avoiding fines or arrest, you have yet to show how the lack of license plates protects your privacy.
 
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:34 pm

Absolutely remarkable from a European perspective that any vehicle is allowed a grace period without number plates.

PPVRA yes of cause they are primarily for Tax and Insurance purposes and rightly so.

Here in the UK all road vehicles are required to be registered - Even powered garden mowers !

There is a national data base accessible by the police and insurance companies that contains all vehicle ID information, yes the VIN the colour the engine number and size .
It also updates and contains details of stolen vehicles and even reported number plate thefts

It also references the users insurance policies expiry date and for vehicles on their third birthday of registration and subsequently annually the MOT test certificate number.

All this is collated annually when paying the road tax.
You are required to submit the insurance policy, MOT test certificate and registration form (Log book) at a post office along with the fee.

Some road traffic police vehicle have equipment that reads those plates and references the data base .
Any discrepancies and a warning is sounded.

This is avery powerful tool in crime investigation and prevention.

The officers will then follow up with a stop and question roadside interview.

As for privacy the standard register sequences incorporate a year code (Of first registration) and a geographical code identifying region of registration. They do not identify the vehicle owner in any way.

You can however transfer previous used registrations for a fee to new vehicles and these are called cherished plates often they may resemble a name and company or word.
Still these still follow the same year/geographical identifiers on close inspection.

A further identifier is the incorporation of the dealers Zip/Post code on the number plates.

All these identify the car to the authorities however not the general public.
 
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:37 pm

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 31):
An intentional crime is committed the second someone flees the scene of an accident.

Some people freak out and run away. Are they a menace to society? I think not.

Quoting lewis (Reply 32):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Citizens seeing a car snatch a kid will see your tag not your DL or VIN

Can you cite an example where this happened? I think criminals are more careful than that.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 29):

The example given involved witnesses to an abduction. My answer was in response to this specific circumstance.

If the dad of a little girl abducts her, you can infer the tag number from the missing car in the garage.

Huh?

"Citizens seeing a car snatch a kid will see your tag. . ."

(deleted part of the statement for emphasis)

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 33):
I know you didn't. What's easier to track in an Amber Alert for citizens and police? License plate #, or VIN? I suppose we could stop every silver Civic in LA to check the VIN, but I think some would view that as a larger invasion of privacy. Not to mention terribly inefficient.

The reason I mentioned VIN and DL numbers is because that's what the bureaucracy use. It's also how you get traffic tickets.

Quoting tugger (Reply 34):
A license plate made up of essentially randomly assigned digits does not intrude on ones privacy.

I can think of a lot of randomly assigned digits that you would not be willing to post here.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):
Agreed. What does the length of time before you look for the suspect have to do with license plates?

License plates arguably can speed up the process, no? This argument was used above agains my position.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):
I agree, I'm just not swayed that having plates is a huge violation of privacy. You are right though, it is a violation of privacy, but we in society have chosen to give up a bit of privacy for the greater good. When it starts to get out of hand, that's when people complain and get the law changed. If 50%+1 think that tags are too much, then so be it

Tracking and identifying is what gives the police that help. Just remember that this also gives everyone else the opportunity to do the same.

Quoting tugger (Reply 37):
Should houses also not have address numbers on them? And if not, why not? They are required by code.

Not by law. But it has very practical purposes. For the matter that is one of my pet peeves in the U.S., a lot of stores don't have or have hidden address numbers on them, making it difficult to know whether or not you drove past a place you are looking for.
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 39):
Absolutely remarkable from a European perspective that any vehicle is allowed a grace period without number plates.

I actually like it. It means I can walk into a dealership and then out with a brand new car in a matter of minutes. Back home I would have to wait for days (sometimes even a couple of weeks) for the plates to arrive at the dealership. You still do get the temporary sticker at the front and everything.
 
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:42 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):

"Citizens seeing a car snatch a kid will see your tag. . ."

(deleted part of the statement for emphasis)

Yeah to which I replied that they will issue an amber alert about it with the said tag. What does the father snatching his own child and the missing car from the said father's garage have to do with anything?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):
It's also how you get traffic tickets.

So back to my point, it IS about avoiding traffic tickets and not really "privacy".

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):
Tracking and identifying is what gives the police that help. Just remember that this also gives everyone else the opportunity to do the same.

Unless "everyone else" can issue amber alerts or can have a fleet of hundreds of cars in the area looking for you, the comparison you are making is moot.

[Edited 2013-10-30 11:46:02]
 
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:44 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 38):
A car is like any other heavy vehicle. You need to check specific boxes (health, age) and be qualified to drive it safely. Unless you are advocating that anybody, regardless of their age, health or ability to drive should be allowed to do so.

There are other ways to go about doing this without a draconian legal requirement.

Quoting lewis (Reply 38):

The reason the police likes tags is because it makes it easier to identify and track criminals, right? So why are you trying to find excuses to why a criminal or any other person could not use tags for the same exact reason?
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 42):
So back to my point, it IS about avoiding traffic tickets and not really "privacy".

I was not talking about tags in that post.
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:48 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
There are other ways to go about doing this without a draconian legal requirement.

So having a valid DL and a license plate is "draconian".

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
So why are you trying to find excuses to why a criminal or any other person could not use tags for the same exact reason?

See the end of reply 42. There are no excuses because "just a criminal" or "just anyone" does not have the means to track you with the license plate the same way law enforcement can. If you still cannot understand why, I give up.
 
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:49 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40):
I can think of a lot of randomly assigned digits that you would not be willing to post here.

There are number that are meant to be seen publicly and others that aren't, so what is your point? Again you attempt to relate things that have no relationship.

Those "random numbers" you are talking about (I assume you are talking about) identify the person specifically, they are just attached to an object, allow access to other information about me that can allows others access to parts of my life that do not belong. Those "other numbers" aren't even seen by law enforcement in any normal circumstance.

You are not making any sense.

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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 45):
So having a valid DL and a license plate is "draconian".

What's draconian is your coercive reaction to people who don't have their "papers" in order. I would never put a gun to someone's head because of this, nor would I ask anyone else to do the same for me.

Quoting lewis (Reply 45):
See the end of reply 42. There are no excuses because "just a criminal" or "just anyone" does not have the means to track you with the license plate the same way law enforcement can. If you still cannot understand why, I give up.

Just because the police has more means than the average criminal does not invalidate my argument.

Quoting tugger (Reply 46):
There are number that are meant to be seen publicly and others that aren't, so what is your point? Again you attempt to relate things that have no relationship.

Choice. That's my point.

[Edited 2013-10-30 11:56:41]
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flymia
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:59 pm

In Florida we have temporary plastic dealer plates or the dealer will just do the registration for you and it has plates available. I agree seeing all those cars around California with no plates makes no sense.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 28):
it is absolutely a right to the extent the government has no right telling you whether you can or cannot do it.

So everyone should fly a plane too right? You need a license, and there are requirements for that such as age, eye sight, physical abilities etc.. The government can absolutely take someones license to drive away for many reasons and to think otherwise is just foolish and naive.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
If they see your car parked where you work, they know you are not at home. Call in a second criminal and give him the go ahead to burglarize your home. There are many possible examples, including much more ominous ones involving risk of life.

Or they can see your car is not parked at your home. Or they can watch you leave your home. Or they can ring the door bell and see if anyone answers. Ringing the doorbell is what most robbers do.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 43):
So why are you trying to find excuses to why a criminal or any other person could not use tags for the same exact reason?

Since when do criminals have access to license plate data. They have the same laptops cops have and the same network accesses? I guess some might but 99% don't. I don't see how a licnese plate is a privacy issue. I think that is taking it way to far. I mean I could watch you get in your car and just follow you. Now you will want all cars to be the same make and color? Because some people might be driving the only E63 in the neighborhood. I mean really license plates? Seriously? I can't even imagine what you have to think about things like Facebook or the NSA.
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RE: CA To Require Plates On Cars From Delivery

Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:59 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
Choice. That's my point.

Please. You have a choice: Don't own or drive a car. No one is forcing you to identify yourself. If you choose to purchase and operate a vehicle then certain rules will need to be followed.

I assume you are also against aircraft registrations.

Tugg
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