ImperialEagle
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Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:58 pm

Wow. This sounds pretty racist to me. Sounds like they need to be talking about inclusiveness and not just isolating one group of people over another.

Here's the link:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/...hite-males-have-unfair-advantages/

And again, where is the "Transparency"? Pentagon officials won't talk? Really? Who do they work for?

Oh well, if this is nothing but a lie, I'm sure the Administration will do everything it can to deny it.
If we don't hear a word I'll take that as an admission of guilt.  Wink

[Edited 2013-10-31 15:05:58]
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Mir
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:23 pm

Do we have a source for this other than an opinion piece that links to a document that gives you a time-out error when you try to load it?

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DocLightning
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:40 pm

Reads like a divisive, inflammatory piece that has very selectively chosen quotes that will most outrage the target audience.
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sccutler
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:51 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Reads like a divisive, inflammatory piece that has very selectively chosen quotes that will most outrage the target audience.

It does indeed - fairly strong stuff; is the linked Training Manual not legitimate?
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Dreadnought
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:55 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):

Do we have a source for this other than an opinion piece that links to a document that gives you a time-out error when you try to load it?

It's right here, straight out of the official Ft Knox training site.

http://www.knox.army.mil/Garrison/su...es/eoo/docs/EORC_Student_Guide.pdf

And holy crap, I just scanned through it. It is FILLED with pure propaganda, repeated ad nauseum. Military vets here will certainly be shocked at what our military has become.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:58 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Reads like a divisive, inflammatory piece that has very selectively chosen quotes that will most outrage the target audience.

I agree. I'm just gonna go on a whim and say what I think the situation is:

It's a fact that white males hold more leadership positions than minorities or females. I'm not just comparing it to the general population, I'm also comparing it to the actual demographics within the military. These are facts.

Why is the situation like this, though? It could very well be that, through socialization that white males tend to do better (and racism and sexism has nothing to do with it.) Another possibility is that the military is full of racism and sexism. What do I think the answer is? Both, of course. Socialization controls a huge part of all of our lives and how we act and it's not the military's fault that white males did better outside of the military. In the military, however, there may still be pockets of overt racism and sexism but what I think they are trying to highlight are the lone wolf closet racists/sexists and the unintentional racism and sexism. CPT Jones might be the most unracist/unsexist guy there is, consciously, but perhaps he subconsciously treats white males better than other soldiers.

Nothing controversial about that, right? I don't think they are talking about "keeping the white man down" and promoting black females all over the place. If a white male is doing better than a black female, the commander should be able to promote the white male without consequence. If he keeps overlooking the black female who works hard and promotes mediocre white guys, all it might take is just a bit of awareness for the commander to see the mistake he/she is making. Maybe the commander is a racist/sexist and fellow officers can spot this and correct the situation

Let me know when they start promoting less capable people just to get demographics up

Also, the Christian aspect is surprising to me. The military is still very religious with prayers at most major ceremonies and all. I'm seeing more and more atheist service members but I've never seen anyone get discriminated against, but I've heard of it happening. Cannot really comment from experience, but obviously, if there is discrimination going on I don't see how we can twist it into a huge injustice against Christians or something.

And homosexuality... before DADT was repealed I saw major opposition, but afterwards, the opinion on gay service members greatly improved. I hardly see any opposition to homosexuality, it seems to mostly come out (vocally) from higher ranks (but not too high of ranks) but homophobia still exists. Again, if the Pentagon wants to get rid of homophobia, is that an attack on straight people?


EDIT: I'll have to read the actual source and then see what I think about it. Have a feeling it's not going to be earth-shattering...

[Edited 2013-10-31 16:09:55]
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Ken777
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:11 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
It could very well be that, through socialization that white males tend to do better

I was in the Navy in the late 60's and, in terms of officers, I served on two very white ships. Not one officer of color. (I would note that years later the DDG I was on visited Perth where we were living and the CO was Black. The crew was also very supportive of this man, which was nice to see.)

In terms of senior officers during my service you need to look back to who was going to Annapolis 20 - 25 year before. That was where you had Commanders & Captains moving up the ladder to Admiral. They went to their military academies at a time before Truman integrated the military.

Same with women. How many would have gone to the service academies in the late 40s?

Things are far different these days, but it still takes 20 years to get 20 years experience.

Look at women and people of color these days and you need to look at when they started their military education. Do that and you can judge if they are being promoted at an expected level.

Gays in the military is a totally different situation because their preferences were hidden until recently. But I believe that a lot of gas have been promoted based on their performance over the years because they were successful at hiding their orientation.

At the enlisted level there was a simple, computer based grading system to get to E-4 and above. Standard tests were a significant part of that grading, which is pretty color blind.

I can also remember comfortable interaction between sailors without regards to color.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Another possibility is that the military is full of racism and sexism.

This country is full of racism and sexism, especially in the traditional South. The military is going to reflect what ever the problems are. Fortunately there has been some improvements in the military. I have been very surprised at the number of Naval Commanders who have been relieved over the past few years. Sexism has been a major cause for those being fired. Pretty shocking when you have a Commanding Officer of a warship that is cable of carrying nuclear weapons.
 
seb146
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:51 am

I wonder why this report is out now. Why did it not come out under GWB? I keep seeing these "stories" coming out and either covertly or overtly blaming Obama. This has been going on for decades and there was no outrage. Until now. We get it. The right hates Obama. The right will do literally ANYTHING to oust him. Any little nugget they can find to pounce on to bring Obama out of the White House. All because the American people decided to re-elect him. All because the American people took away some of their seats in the House. Can you imagine the faux outrage in 2014 when they lose the majority in the House?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:59 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
I wonder why this report is out now. Why did it not come out under GWB? I keep seeing these "stories" coming out and either covertly or overtly blaming Obama.

    Why don't we just stop doing everything until Obama gets out of office? Seriously, how come every tiny thing that just so happens to come out under Obama is some giant conspiracy to blame him? It's really annoying.

I'm surprised you didn't take the positive approach: maybe the President is pressuring the Pentagon to create a more fair and equal military? Please, anything other than these tin foil conspiracies of covering up everything under Bush and releasing it right as Obama takes office!!!!...... plus 4 years. Come on. Bad stuff happens every day. Events spanning years have to come out during some administration. Ever occur that this didn't come out under Bush because it wasn't ready to come out? The military hasn't created some conspiracy to dump a bunch of problems on a Democrat and not a Republican.

Ugh, I'll stop now. Seriously, calm down, not everything is a coordinated attack!
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Dreadnought
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:18 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):

I wonder why this report is out now. Why did it not come out under GWB? I keep seeing these "stories" coming out and either covertly or overtly blaming Obama. This has been going on for decades and there was no outrage. Until now. We get it. The right hates Obama.

Maybe because such things probably would not happen under GWB? This is hardly the first time we've heard noises about this administration trying to make the military politically correct.
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Flighty
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:48 am

Nothing new. The federal government has very preferential standards in hiring and procurement based on gender and race. Some of it is required by law. There is nothing hidden or confusing about that.
 
seb146
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:49 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Maybe because such things probably would not happen under GWB?

wow. just... wow.

You really believe that? Really?

wow. just.. wow.
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Mike89406
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:53 am

Just a bunch of jibberish IMO. Some people make the military sound like a racist and social club for the white man and it's not. Maybe in the south things are different but I can assure you that unless you are a minority with a clean history or woman you're not getting promoted above E-7 easily or accepted to officer programs unless you're parents are somebody.

There's been such a focus on weeding out racism, sexism, harassment out of the military since the tailhook scandal of the 90's. You have to pretty much walk on egg shells around fellow GI's so you won't be accused of any EO crimes or violations which can hurt or end you're military career.

The article is propaganda.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:26 am

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 12):
The article is propaganda.

It accurately portrays the training document. Did you bother to read it?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 11):
You really believe that? Really?

He was hardly a conservative but neither was he a rabid liberal, of the type who clearly wrote (or had controlling input on) the training document.
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Mike89406
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:44 am

The reporting is confusing and inflammatory I'd have to read more or see more evidence of this.

[Edited 2013-10-31 21:58:54]
 
seb146
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:50 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
the training document.

Two questions:

1. How long have you served in the military?
B. When was this guide written and updated?
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Superfly
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:52 am

Truly disgusting to read. Hard to believe that this is sanctioned by our own government. What kind of social experiment are they trying to pull off?
Sounds like they want our military to look like the Village People.



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seb146
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:59 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
Sounds like they want our military to look like the Village People.

Heavens to merkitroid! Our military looking like the people the people in America! Oh, the shame of it all! There are Blacks in America! There are Natives in America! There are Latinos in America! We can't have that. Only Whites. Whites only in America! /sarcasm
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Aaron747
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:35 am

If true, the contents of the manual are highly inappropriate. This is not the way to foment a workplace in which all participants are treating each other as equals. Military training should emphasize meritocracy and measure ability by not only performance but personal integrity.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
Sounds like they want our military to look like the Village People.

At least that would scare the shit out of the terrorists.
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seb146
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:47 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
At least that would scare the shit out of the terrorists.

And tea people.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
the contents of the manual are highly inappropriate.

THANK YOU! Democrats want to get rid of all references to gender and race. But, the tea people think that just encourages them; makes them feel "entitled" to services like education. And, how dare they think they should feel entitled to a job or anything! How dare minorities (or any American, for that matter) feel they are entitled to an education! Shame on them for thinking they can pull themselves up by their boot straps! They need to inherit billions of dollars like the "regular" Americans and not be given any boot straps!
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blueflyer
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:26 am

The predominantly white males of Fox News have an issue with an army that wants to make sure the predominance of white males among its upper ranks doesn't keep it from raising to the top talented people who do not belong to that group. I wonder why...

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
If true, the contents of the manual are highly inappropriate.

Why? Do you disagree that overall, white men have a socio-economic advantage over all other groups? Is it wrong to call others to this situation?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
I wonder why this report is out now. Why did it not come out under GWB?

I can't say whether there have been previous versions, but the particular training manual Fox refers to is dated April 2012.

[Edited 2013-10-31 23:26:50]
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Mike89406
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 6:46 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):

That's a Army training manual not a Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps document for starters. I have no idea how the Army conducts its training. I don't know if this is how they train perspective facilitators or strictly Army instructors. I attended a mini one day course to administer command climate surveys to see if there were organization problems dealing with racism, harassment, special or unfair treatment, fraternization etc...

The course never taught or implied to look down on minority and make him/her fell better or using the white man club etc... In fact the instructors that taught us the class were all minorities not one Caucasian. They should've known if this kind of language existed as they read the same course syllabus over and over to numerous classes.

I can tell you as a 20 yr navy veteran I never looked down on anyone or considered myself privileged. CO's, officers and other leaders do get relieved for credible ethics, discrimination violations. While racism exists it's much worse in regular society.

The only time I've truly experienced racism in the military was generally service members from the south. Having a few in laws from South Carolina it's a different culture than the rest of the US. Not saying that all southern people are racists but I digress...

The alleged source Faux news paraphrased most of the info so was he nitpicking or what?

Anyways I have no opinion yet well have too see what happens, if anything the manual will need to be rewritten and the DEOMI officer who gave the manual to the press... Chances are he/she will be found out.
 
Superfly
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:24 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
If true, the contents of the manual are highly inappropriate. This is not the way to foment a workplace in which all participants are treating each other as equals. Military training should emphasize meritocracy and measure ability by not only performance but personal integrity.

  
Exactly. I've always thought the military was merit based. When did these rules go in place? How is it that Colon Powell and Allan West managed to rise through the ranks?
When it comes to fighting our enemies, I don't care what race, gender or sexual orientation they are. Just as long as they're capable of doing the job is all that should matter.
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Mike89406
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 7:58 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):

That's the thing first and foremost we are there to do our job that's the single goal. The last thing leadership wants to deal with is someone's personal problems affecting work.

It doesn't matter if you like or hate certain people you do you're job. No system is perfect and there are times leadership gets involved if it affects production. Anyways I can't speak for every branch of military and I know some work centers are different but the goal is the same. Sometimes that has a lot to do with you're supervisor(s).

I've worked for a few bad managers but I've had great ones as well. I can only speak from my own experience though.

Anyways this report is early so who knows. Maybe it's an over zealous writer or could be credible. I don't agree that lumping in the military as whole is accurate just yet. I've never felt that I've been given special treatment because I'm white, maybe in the early 90's and before something like this might hold water. From my experience a lot of minorities and women are being promoted before I was given a chance.

If anything is inappropriate the person(s) who wrote the manual should've been rewritten.

[Edited 2013-11-01 01:08:18]
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:39 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 16):
Sounds like they want our military to look like the Village People.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 18):
At least that would scare the shit out of the terrorists.

      

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 21):
Not saying that all southern people are racists

Well, that is the implication isn't it? Twice.  
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 23):
It doesn't matter if you like or hate certain people you do you're job

Absolutely. Everybody has some kind of prejudices. I don't care how hard they deny it. Life just does it to you.
Nonetheless, you just get you're job done.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 23):
If anything is inappropriate the person(s) who wrote the manual should've been rewritten.

Absolutely. Now that there has been some attention brought to it (thanks to Fox) maybe something will be done about it. Maybe.  
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Kiwirob
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:40 pm

How many of these

Quote:
whereas a black, homosexual, atheist female in poor health receives many unearned disadvantages of social privilege

are in the armed forces. Someone in poor heath should choose a different profession.
 
seb146
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 20):
I can't say whether there have been previous versions

Maybe someone should check that out before outrage begins.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
I've always thought the military was merit based. When did these rules go in place? How is it that Colon Powell and Allan West managed to rise through the ranks?

Some time in the 1800s, IIRC. Where was the outrage then? Where was the outrage in WWI? Where was the outrage in WWII? Korea? Vietnam? Why now? Just now?
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Maverick623
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RE: Pentagon Training "White,Males,Christians" Have Ad

Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:45 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):

Exactly. I've always thought the military was merit based. When did these rules go in place? How is it that Colon Powell and Allan West managed to rise through the ranks?

Just a data point, but the PBS documentary "Carrier", filmed on the Nimitz in 2005 and released in 2008, put it in a rather interesting light.

While the enlisted ranks were very much integrated and seemed to be equalized as far as race and gender goes (down to the Senior Chief being black), every single command-level officer in the was a white male.


All that crud aside, it is a very good documentary... and it's amazing that they were able to get all that footage past the DOD censors.
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