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WarRI1
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Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:53 am

http://hosted2.ap.org/RIPRJ/APPoliti...d-63974a22ec624a8fb090b5daa37efa66



This poll shows that people who have paid their dues all their working life, do not want anyone trying to change the game. I agree with them. I paid dearly, on nearly every dime for 42 years. The Cost of living is needed by many millions. The ceiling most certainly should be raised. I remember well that every time I exceeded the ceiling the next year it was raised again. Now we have many who exceed the ceiling in a week, or a month. There should be no ceiling, pay on every dime, like the 99% do.
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StuckInCA
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:58 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
This poll shows that people who have paid their dues all their working life

What about those of us who also will have paid all of our working life and are almost certain to collect much less relative to the current generation of retirees? Tough luck? If the math doesn't work, it doesn't work.
 
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:03 am

That is too bad... I think a really simple fix would be to slowly raise the retirement age. If you are actually old and frail, by all means draw it early, but if you are healthy, continue to work.

I do realize that older citizens have 'paid into the system,' but when SS was originally set up, a great many people paid into the system and never drew from it (since the life expectancy would often nix them before they were able to draw from SS.) It's a good safety net for the old and disabled to not end up on the streets, but I don't see it as something people should live off of for 20 years. I don't want that for myself when I get old... I want to work til I can't and then draw unless I die before

SS is a safety net, not a 401K. JMO, I can see how one's expectations might be different if they viewed SS as something more than just a safety net for their whole lives.
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:23 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 1):
What about those of us who also will have paid all of our working life and are almost certain to collect much less relative to the current generation of retirees? Tough luck? If the math doesn't work, it doesn't work.

What would you call it, tough luck? Who would you blame, me? Them who have already paid all their lives, and on every cent they made. I suggest you and others who are now paying blame those who caused this funding problem. Our esteemed congress, and our esteemed corporations who sent the tax paying jobs overseas by the millions. Jobs that paid into that fund. They have been disappearing for about 30 years now. Tell that to your congressman/woman. I know your generation has been asleep, could give a shit less. bought all the cheap shit, supporting the killing off of union jobs. Time to pay the Piper as they say. When you are getting less, blame the people who deserve blaming, look in the mirror also.

[Edited 2013-11-03 20:23:27]
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:28 am

For 70% or more Americans and probably more in the next 5-20 years, Social Security (SS) will be the only or an overwhelming majority of their income once they 'retire' or can no longer work. Any affect on the monies from they have assumed and planned for from SS could severely hurt them personally and financially

Many more than expected are now taking SS the moment they turn 62 due to changing financial fortunes. That can include: collapsing incomes as their jobs have gone as obsolete, got laid off, cannot get anything but lower paying jobs, may not be able to work due to their or a spouse's health, never in a pension program or it was destroyed by their employer of the 2008 crash or underfunded; divorced; have to pay huge premiums for health insurance; never able to save in a 401(k)/IRA or lost a lot of their money in the 2008 crash and never caught up. Others say why not take the SS money at 62 as think they may not live to 65/66 to get '100%' base rates or just to have some money to live a little better, pay bills, build up some savings.

Proposals to reduce future payments, raise the age one can get SS at '100%' base rates, use a inflation formula that is lower than the general CPI (the so-called 'chained CPI') that ignores the real inflation of health care, supplemental health care premiums, energy, housing and other costs of living are all very unpopular for good reason.

I do think over the next 10 years or so, there should be a progressive increase, above the rate of inflation of the employment ceiling amount on SS and Medicare taxes are paid on to assure sufficient revenues to make SS payments. At about a certain income point, the % rate of tax could be lower for both the individual and their employer than for those below a certain ceiling level. I also think there should be some need basis to get SS, including denial in full or part of eligible SS benefits if a person gets a substantial pension (like $50K or more as a base for a reduced payment), has a huge IRA/401(k) (like over $ 1 Million in solid assets) or a similar level of annual annuity payments.
 
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:37 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
That is too bad... I think a really simple fix would be to slowly raise the retirement age. If you are actually old and frail, by all means draw it early, but if you are healthy, continue to work.

One has to remember that the SS system was set up when there were no pensions for the average worker. One also has to be cognizant of the fact that many millions are still out there from that age. One has to recognize that many millions today, and getting worse every year have no pension, no 401 K, nothing but substandard wages to live on. They struggle to survive, never mind retire. As I said before, we should all look in the mirror, and say "We have met the enemy, and they is us".

I believe that with all my heart. I remember the golden age of manufacturing, wages, unions. Not one of those did I have a hand in destroying. Quite the opposite, I fought the good fight, still do. I must say, I saw this collapse coming 30 years ago. I was lucky, I made and my wife made enough to save, and we have pensions. I ask, who should be blamed, the worker? The government? The corporations? I know who I blame, and it is not the worker.
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:44 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):

What is to be done, then? The math seems to be against SS. I want it to be adequate to cover those who need it, but only those who need it. I think there are plenty of 65 year olds that are more than capable of staying in the work force
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:50 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 4):
For 70% or more Americans and probably more in the next 5-20 years, Social Security (SS) will be the only or an overwhelming majority of their income once they 'retire' or can no longer work. Any affect on the monies from they have assumed and planned for from SS could severely hurt them personally and financially

Absolutely, just think what a disaster we will have then. I for-see us going back to the days of children and parents sharing more and more of daily expenses, living together, because of lower wages, less opportunity. It is already happening. We might be the huddled masses like the words at the Statue of Liberty. Instead of them coming here, they will be here. The wealthy will do all right, they always do because the 99% let them.
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:09 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
What is to be done, then? The math seems to be against SS. I want it to be adequate to cover those who need it, but only those who need it. I think there are plenty of 65 year olds that are more than capable of staying in the work force

I believe Hillary proposed during the Primary battle to raise the ceiling so you pay on every cent earned, just like the 99%. I believe she claimed that would raise 1Trillion dollars over 10 years. That would sure help. We have to pay on every cent, so should all. Once again, a loophole for the wealthy. Is anyone naïve enough to believe a worker proposed that ceiling? I think not. There are many people over 65 who want to work over 65, no doubt. There are millions on disability SS. Some deserve it, many, many do not. It is a scam. When I signed up at 62, I was the oldest guy in the room. I was shocked, this needs to be rectified, also we can blame the government, and Lawyers. Costs billions.

I do not have a concrete answer, but we will need SS more and more as time goes on, as mentioned before. The need is growing, not shrinking. I do think a trillion dollars, and better wages, more jobs will solve the problem. I certainly know that a shrinking job base is not the way to go, as has been happening for years.







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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:33 am

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2008/...-population-projections-2005-2050/



If this comes true, bad days ahead. Look at the dependents for every 100 workers near the bottom.
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:34 am

Another quick and needed fix is to use the PCE index instead of the CPI to direct increases in benefits. The PCE index is a more accurate measure of inflation (and the "official" measure as far as the Federal Reserve is concerned) but retirees prefer the CPI because it overstates inflation, so any adjustment for inflation in benefits is effectively a raise in purchasing power.

[Edited 2013-11-03 20:41:38]
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:48 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 10):
Another quick and needed fix is to use the PCE index instead of the CPI to direct increases in benefits. The PCE index is a more accurate measure of inflation (and the "official" measure as far as the Federal Reserve is concerned) but retirees prefer the CPI because it overstates inflation, so any inflation adjustment in benefits is effectively a raise in benefits.

I cannot imagine anyone living on the minimum SS alone. Just the other day, I was at lunch and we overheard a group of women talking about ones husband passing away, she said, that even though she was receiving her husbands higher amount, she was still out her amount and it was affecting her finances severely. This is the reality of it all, one has to live on a fixed income to understand. That is why a cost of living increase is so important to many people on SS. If all you have is SS, and with everything going up. you are squeezed more and more.
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:22 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
That is why a cost of living increase is so important to many people on SS.

I'm not against cost-of-living increases, but using the CPI for that purpose is a cost-of-living-plus-some-extra increase. Whether SS is enough to live on (no), whether one should count only on SS to live on (no), are separate arguments from how to calculate an increase correctly, in my opinion.
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:24 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
This poll shows that people who have paid their dues all their working life, do not want anyone trying to change the game.

Of course they don't, they're pretty much off the hook and will be dead long before it causes them a problem.

The middle is the preferable place to be in a pyramid scheme: those at the bottom lose money and those at the top go to jail.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 1):
What about those of us who also will have paid all of our working life and are almost certain to collect much less relative to the current generation of retirees? Tough luck? If the math doesn't work, it doesn't work.

Have as many kids as possible maybe? Sweat it out? That's basically just the way life is as a potential Ponzi scheme victim.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
That is too bad... I think a really simple fix would be to slowly raise the retirement age. If you are actually old and frail, by all means draw it early, but if you are healthy, continue to work.

We need to set a series of dates over the next few decades to phase out Social Security. Based on when you are born your contributions and benefits will be adjusted downwards until there is eventually a birth date after which people are exempt.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
SS is a safety net, not a 401K.

No, it isn't. A 401(k) is an actual investment.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 3):
Who would you blame, me?

I would blame the liberals who enacted the system and never bothered to cut it off in all these decades.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 3):
our esteemed corporations who sent the tax paying jobs overseas by the millions. Jobs that paid into that fund. They have been disappearing for about 30 years now. Tell that to your congressman/woman. I know your generation has been asleep, could give a shit less. bought all the cheap shit, supporting the killing off of union jobs. Time to pay the Piper as they say. When you are getting less, blame the people who deserve blaming, look in the mirror also.

I don't need to have a job to benefit from Social Security, baby boomers need me to have a job to benefit from Social Security. That's how these sorts of schemes work.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 4):
I also think there should be some need basis to get SS, including denial in full or part of eligible SS benefits if a person gets a substantial pension (like $50K or more as a base for a reduced payment), has a huge IRA/401(k) (like over $ 1 Million in solid assets) or a similar level of annual annuity payments.

That's no good. The solution to a Ponzi scheme is not to ensure it screws people in the middle as well as the bottom of the pyramid.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
One has to recognize that many millions today, and getting worse every year have no pension, no 401 K, nothing but substandard wages to live on.

What sort of fool doesn't save money?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
I remember the golden age of manufacturing, wages, unions. Not one of those did I have a hand in destroying.

You did, you just did not realize or care. Benefits went up, wages went up, but skill and productivity did not keep pace. At that point, it would be stupid not to send manufacturing to locales where the value proposition is better.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
The math seems to be against SS.

Liberals don't do numbers, apparently. For some reason, math and economics just seems to escape them.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):
The wealthy will do all right, they always do because the 99% let them.

The 99% don't let them do anything. It's their money, not ours.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
We have to pay on every cent, so should all. Once again, a loophole for the wealthy.

No, they shouldn't. The wealthy have no use for Social Security and will not have any interest in benefits. The wealthy get nothing out of the system, so forcing them to pay in more for the system is shamelessly using them as a piggy bank.
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:26 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
people who have paid their dues all their working life, do not want anyone trying to change the game. I agree with them. I paid dearly, on nearly every dime for 42 years.

Newsflash, you did not pay into Social Security, you just paid taxes by another name. Social Security contributions are not deposits, nor are they insurance premiums (unless you show me a legally-binding contract you signed that says otherwise), they are just a disguised way to increase general government revenue (partly to help pay for the people that came BEFORE you). I work with insurance companies and I can tell you, if any insurance company ran its business the way Social Security runs theirs, your friendly local insurance regulator would shut it down so fast it would make your head spin and its management would quickly find out just how slimming an orange jumpsuit can be.

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
The ceiling most certainly should be raised. I remember well that every time I exceeded the ceiling the next year it was raised again. Now we have many who exceed the ceiling in a week, or a month. There should be no ceiling, pay on every dime, like the 99% do.

I would love to be able to pay more into Social Security - provided you are close enough to retirement to actually stand a shot at collecting it, Social Security provides by far the best return on "investment" out there, particularly given the war on savers Ben Bernanke is undertaking. Of course, if you raise the contribution ceiling you also need to raise the maximum payouts, which would only make Social Security go insolvent even faster.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 1):
If the math doesn't work, it doesn't work.

The longer I live the more I think everyone should be required to take actuarial studies in High School. My favorite example of government flying in the face of reality was when they tried to introduce CLASS as a part of Obamacare. CLASS was basically supposed to be a voluntary long-term care insurance program offered by the government (long-term care is a line of business most insurance companies have abandoned after losing tons of money and not being able to cope with the massive Federal Reserve money-printing). The way CLASS was designed, you would start taking in insurance premiums now but payouts would have a deferral period so that, at the earliest, payouts under CLASS would only start being made close to the end / after the 10-year period the Government Accountability Board was required to look at in their math to see if Obamacare was going to reduce costs or not. The way government accounting worked, all insurance premiums CLASS was going to take in in the first 10 years would count as revenue, thus proving that Obamacare reduced costs! This is just borderline criminal... luckily government and outside actuaries ran the numbers and concluded that there was basically no way this would not blow up pretty badly and the HHS nixed the plan.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
I do realize that older citizens have 'paid into the system,'

No they have not. See above.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 4):
use a inflation formula that is lower than the general CPI (the so-called 'chained CPI') that ignores the real inflation of health care, supplemental health care premiums, energy, housing and other costs of living are all very unpopular for good reason.

Governments like to manipulate inflation figures down to justify more money-printing. The official inflation statistics used by the Fed do not take into account housing costs, despite the fact that housing represents a huge component of the monthly budget of most households.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 4):
the % rate of tax could be lower for both the individual and their employer

The employer does not, and never has, paid any SS contributions, those contributions are 100% made by the employees through reduced salaries. Trying to further shift the cost of Social Security to employees is just a sneaky way to increase taxes on individuals.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 4):
there should be some need basis to get SS, including denial in full or part of eligible SS benefits if a person gets a substantial pension (like $50K or more as a base for a reduced payment), has a huge IRA/401(k) (like over $ 1 Million in solid assets) or a similar level of annual annuity payments.

So, let me get this straight, if you saved money every month throughout your career you get hosed, but if you blew it all on hookers and cocaine you come out on top? Sounds like our estate tax system at work, a great way to align incentives. What's to stop people from cashing out of their 401Ks and paying the penalty one day before applying for Social Security?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
a group of women talking about ones husband passing away, she said, that even though she was receiving her husbands higher amount, she was still out her amount and it was affecting her finances severely

At the very least, Social Security should be changed so it stops hosing single people and people with no kids.
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:50 pm

Social Security is a pay-as-you-go system. Currently it takes in enough to pay out the benefits to those retired, without adversely affecting the rest of the budget. However the ratio between workers paying social security taxes and those receiving them is tiling from a 1960 ratio of 5:1 to a ratio in 2030 of 2.2:1. By 2030 the amount of taxes collected to social security, will be 75% of what is to be paid out. This is a switch that makes Social Security unfundable due to demographics.

Raising the contribution limit would only raise the payouts, so it would not work under the current law . What has to change are the ratio between those receiving benefits and those paying into it. it will take law .
1. Raise the age of eligibility
2. Reducing benefits for certain income levels
3. increasing taxes on those still working
4. Provide incentives for couples to have more children to increase the workforce.


I think we could get away with just doing the first two without touching the third or fourth, but these are the real changes that must be made.
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:04 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 14):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
I do realize that older citizens have 'paid into the system,'

No they have not. See above.

Semantics. You pay the tax now to support those that already paid the tax earlier in their lives and you expect to recieve the same. I realize I'm not actually putting money into the DeltaMD90 SS Fund

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
1. Raise the age of eligibility
2. Reducing benefits for certain income levels
3. increasing taxes on those still working
4. Provide incentives for couples to have more children to increase the workforce.


I think we could get away with just doing the first two without touching the third or fourth, but these are the real changes that must be made.

I agree that we shouldn't touch 3 or 4, but I'd really like to focus on 1. Like I said, we are living longer, healthier lives. If someone cannot work and gets sick at 55, let them draw SS. If someone is 65 and has never been healthier, keep em in the labor force til IDK, 75. That might not seem "fair" but look at it this way: I'm sure the 75 year old is more than happy to be finally collecting SS like that 55 year old has been, but the 75 year old had 20 more healthy, productive years, and the 55 year old died at 57.

I realize the financial sense that your point #2 makes but I still find it tough to swallow. The rich help fund the system a lot more than the poor and when they reach the age of retirement, they don't get to draw anything from it? I guess my perspective changes if I view it as a pseudo 401(k) you pay into (semantics, Pyrex, bear with me) or if you view it as a safety net to keep the old and unhealthy from dying in the streets
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:31 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
but I'd really like to focus on 1

I agree. Look people are making it to 90 with regular ease these days, which is 23 years past the 67 year old retirement age. The average age of death is still 78 in the US, but many of the deaths that occur and still count, are folks that never collected retirement pensions. Once you make it to retirement, the average life expectancy is age 86. If you make it to 86, you have a 50/50 shot at 93. So raising the retirement age for full benefits makes sense, since folks that make it to 67 are going to probably live at least 15 years longer.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
I realize the financial sense that your point #2 makes but I still find it tough to swallow. The rich help fund the system a lot more than the poor and when they reach the age of retirement, they don't get to draw anything from it?

I think they should be able to draw from it, but I think there should be a top end gap on payouts. This could be arbitrary, but I think at current living expenses a top out of 6,000 to 7,000 a month in benefits would be more than generous. I do not propose allowing a person that paid more in to receive less monthly than someone who paid very little in. However I think the idea of the system is a bit retirement and a bit of social security for those less fortunate. Some of this tax will never be seen by the person that put it in, however they should see a progressive benefit for their contributions in this system.
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:28 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
Social Security is a pay-as-you-go system. Currently it takes in enough to pay out the benefits to those retired, without adversely affecting the rest of the budget. However the ratio between workers paying social security taxes and those receiving them is tiling from a 1960 ratio of 5:1 to a ratio in 2030 of 2.2:1. By 2030 the amount of taxes collected to social security, will be 75% of what is to be paid out. This is a switch that makes Social Security unfundable due to demographics.

Raising the contribution limit would only raise the payouts, so it would not work under the current law . What has to change are the ratio between those receiving benefits and those paying into it. it will take law .
1. Raise the age of eligibility
2. Reducing benefits for certain income levels
3. increasing taxes on those still working
4. Provide incentives for couples to have more children to increase the workforce.


I think we could get away with just doing the first two without touching the third or fourth, but these are the real changes that must be made.

Like others I too agree that the changes need to be made. The sad thing is I do not know if it is possible with one party sometimes appearing to want to have it fail and the other party not willing to make concessions on benefits. We have known of this for the past 30+ years and no one has been willing to make the simple changes to fix the problems. Especially when the issue was first raised, the changes would have been simple, a small increase in the SS tax, place some limits on the benefits, and set aside and secure a portion of the funds for future use. But they delayed and delayed it, and are still delaying making any decision. It is not that hard a concept and a solution is straight forward as you noted above, the hard part is getting any legislation though Congress to resolve the issue.

Tugg

[Edited 2013-11-04 11:30:37]
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
I realize the financial sense that your point #2 makes but I still find it tough to swallow. The rich help fund the system a lot more than the poor and when they reach the age of retirement, they don't get to draw anything from it?

That's true with a lot of things that taxes go toward. Ideally, I'd like everybody to get back what they put in, but we're going to have a demographic problem and things are going to have to get cut. And if you don't need the help, that seems to be a reasonable place to cut.

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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:01 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 1):
What about those of us who also will have paid all of our working life and are almost certain to collect much less relative to the current generation of retirees? Tough luck? If the math doesn't work, it doesn't work.

I look at my pay stub every week depressed to know I will never get to see the money that I paid into the system. I'm all for giving those who paid into the system their share. But there has to be a point where what my generation has paid into the system can be redeemed as well.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
That is too bad... I think a really simple fix would be to slowly raise the retirement age. If you are actually old and frail, by all means draw it early, but if you are healthy, continue to work.

We do have to raise the retirement age for sure. But how do we determine if someone is old and frail? That is a really subjective thing.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 3):
Our esteemed congress, and our esteemed corporations who sent the tax paying jobs overseas by the millions.

Social Security is affected a lot more by the fact that families are a lot smaller now than it is job's going overseas. If there was 20% unemployment, I'd agree with you. But the problem is more there are more people getting pay outs because of age than not enough jobs paying in.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 3):
supporting the killing off of union jobs.

The demise of unions is not the cause of social security issues.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
If someone cannot work and gets sick at 55, let them draw SS. If someone is 65 and has never been healthier, keep em in the labor force til IDK, 75. That might not seem "fair" but look at it this way: I'm sure the 75 year old is more than happy to be finally collecting SS like that 55 year old has been, but the 75 year old had 20 more healthy, productive years, and the 55 year old died at 57.

But you don't know that the person is going to die at 57. They may miraculously pull through and live to 90. We need a hard line that says you can get SS at this age like we do now. The only thing is the age has to be increased.

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
And if you don't need the help, that seems to be a reasonable place to cut.

Although they don't need the help they are entitled to that money just as someone who made $65,000 a year.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:07 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 20):
We do have to raise the retirement age for sure. But how do we determine if someone is old and frail? That is a really subjective thing.

The same way they determine if people can draw early today. There is subjectivity but there also is a line (might be a fuzzy one, but it's there) that says "no, this person isn't healthy enough to work." I should have clarified, I don't think people should just work til 100 just because they can. I just think the retirement age should be raised to a higher age (maybe 70 would do the trick, maybe 75) but if you're actually unable to work prior to that age, you can draw just like you can draw today

My idea isn't that complex at all, it's basically what we have today, we just have a higher retirement age. Also, I think people need to realize that this is a safety net and not a 401(k)... invest your own money, SS will be there to keep you from living on the street
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ER757
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:26 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
What sort of fool doesn't save money?

The sort of fool that has a low-paying job and needs their entire paycheck to meet living expenses. The sort of fool whose child or spouse has a medical condition that requires multiple surgeries or round the clock medical care that insurance either doesn't completely cover or that has a lifetime maximum benefit. There are others of course, but these are just two examples.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
We need to set a series of dates over the next few decades to phase out Social Security. Based on when you are born your contributions and benefits will be adjusted downwards until there is eventually a birth date after which people are exempt.

As long as you younger folks are OK with it, this old man has no objections. I'll take mine though, thank you very much.
  

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 14):
At the very least, Social Security should be changed so it stops hosing single people and people with no kids.

You are my new hero!  
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:59 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 12):
I'm not against cost-of-living increases, but using the CPI for that purpose is a cost-of-living-plus-some-extra increase. Whether SS is enough to live on (no), whether one should count only on SS to live on (no), are separate arguments from how to calculate an increase correctly, in my opinion.

This I cannot argue with, I leave it to the experts in government to come up with what is fair, in relation to cost of living hikes. I'll tell you this, what we are getting in my opinion is not based on reality, not nearly enough to come close to staying above water for those in real need, such as someone who only has SS as an income.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 3):
What would you call it, tough luck? Who would you blame, me? Them who have already paid all their lives, and on every cent they made.

You may have paid SSI tax on every dime you made, but that doesn't mean every dime of Social Security payments is from your earned income, or even your generation's earned income. Those receiving Social Security today will, on average, receive a lifetime benefit significantly exceeding their lifetime contributions.

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
This poll shows that people who have paid their dues all their working life, do not want anyone trying to change the game. I agree with them. I paid dearly, on nearly every dime for 42 years

Greed is a hell of an emotion. Real economic numbers show that:

- Seniors are wealthier today than in past generations
- Seniors are enduring recessions more comfortably than any other age group
- Senior median net worth has risen 48% since 1989
- Under 40 net worth has decreased 31% since 1989

But by all means, they need their "hard earned benefits" that exceed their net contributions.

Source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...-11e3-a624-41d661b0bb78_story.html
 
BMI727
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
Social Security is a pay-as-you-go system.

There was a different term when Bernie did it.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
2. Reducing benefits for certain income levels

Screws people with money.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
3. increasing taxes on those still working

Screws those still working.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 15):
4. Provide incentives for couples to have more children to increase the workforce.

Screws people who don't want to have kids. So much for getting the government out of the bedroom then?

Quoting ER757 (Reply 22):
The sort of fool that has a low-paying job and needs their entire paycheck to meet living expenses.

Not my problem.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 22):
As long as you younger folks are OK with it, this old man has no objections. I'll take mine though, thank you very much.

That's odd. Most old guys seem convinced that people are too stupid to have anyone other than the government manage their money.
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:44 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 24):
You may have paid SSI tax on every dime you made, but that doesn't mean every dime of Social Security payments is from your earned income, or even your generation's earned income. Those receiving Social Security today will, on average, receive a lifetime benefit significantly exceeding their lifetime contributions.

That is the system, and the way it is. By the way, millions pass away without collecting any money. Do you advocate reimbursing them?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 24):
Greed is a hell of an emotion. Real economic numbers show that:

I find that repugnant, to infer that old people, millions of them factory workers, who never had a shot at a pension, busted their balls working for the man, and ended up in a rented apartment to show for their years of toil are somehow greedy because they want to collect from a system they were promised would help them in their old age after years of paying taxes. I find that beyond the pale.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:45 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25):
Not my problem.

It could be if the cost of having impoverished seniors outweighs SS contributions. You seem to only think of the cost of one side of scenarios. I'm not saying your way is always more expensive, but it is worth consideration.

That all changes if you are basing decisions off principle vs the bottom line. I'll ask you something theoretical, and all it is is theoretical. I'm not trying to trap you into anything, just want to get your opinion. Would you pay someone $1 now to prevent them from costing you $2 down the line? Are you more concerned about only spending $1 vs $2 or are you basing everything off principle and don't want to pay the $1 and will just deal with the reckless consequences of an individual, even if it ends up costing you $2 later.

I also know that it's impossible to be this precise on anything, I'm just being hypothetical
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WarRI1
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:04 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
It could be if the cost of having impoverished seniors outweighs SS contributions

Absolutely, people will be supported, they will not starve here. If SS does not function, it will then be welfare for millions. People should be careful of what they advocate. Less money, less consumption. We are a consumer based economy, what are these experts advocating? I cannot figure it out. No jobs, no SS taxes. No money for millions, less consumption by millions. Guess what?
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:40 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
That is the system, and the way it is.

And have you wondered why support for the system is low among young people? The young are your patrons, so you would be well served to consider their perspective.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
By the way, millions pass away without collecting any money. Do you advocate reimbursing them?

Yes, I think that's one of the worst features of Social Security.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
I find that repugnant, to infer that old people, millions of them factory workers, who never had a shot at a pension, busted their balls working for the man, and ended up in a rented apartment to show for their years of toil are somehow greedy because they want to collect from a system they were promised would help them in their old age after years of paying taxes.

The article I cited specifically cautioned against this nonsense. You are portraying a scenario that is demonstrably untrue of millions of Social Security recipients. Yes, some need Social Security to stay above the poverty line. Many don't. Yet, people like you paint these sweeping sob stories to justify rejecting changes for anyone.

Without fail, someone like you will say "I paid dearly, on nearly every dime for 42 years," as if you would have paid a dime if you knew you would never see it again.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
I find that beyond the pale

What else can you call it other than greed when one generation forces another to finance its material standard of living at the cost of the future generation's well being?

To be fair, you could also call it cowardly or ignorant.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:08 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 30):
Without fail, someone like you will say "I paid dearly, on nearly every dime for 42 years," as if you would have paid a dime if you knew you would never see it again.

I and millions more did just that, we put our faith in our government. They made us a promise, we paid for years on that promise. Now the younger generation seem to have lost that faith. I have to wonder. Is it selfishness? Is it the worship of wealth, that is so prevalent on here, that made one blind to the corruption of our Democracy, our government? Is it the crooked politicians we elect? Is it the younger generation being gullible, listening to the naysayers? Is it the government haters spreading their hate? Is it the younger people not paying attention for many years, while it all went into the pockets of the wealthy. Is it the younger generation finally realizing that they might be screwed over along with the older folks who raised the younger generation?
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BMI727
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:17 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 31):
Is it the worship of wealth, that is so prevalent on here, that made one blind to the corruption of our Democracy, our government?

What's more corrupt than a Ponzi scheme?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 31):
Is it the younger generation finally realizing that they might be screwed over along with the older folks who raised the younger generation?

Indeed, which is why I want to phase the system out before it can collapse.
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StuckInCA
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 3:19 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 31):
Now the younger generation seem to have lost that faith. I have to wonder. Is it selfishness? Is it the worship of wealth, that is so prevalent on here, that made one blind to the corruption of our Democracy, our government? Is it the crooked politicians we elect? Is it the younger generation being gullible, listening to the naysayers? Is it the government haters spreading their hate? Is it the younger people not paying attention for many years, while it all went into the pockets of the wealthy. Is it the younger generation finally realizing that they might be screwed over along with the older folks who raised the younger generation?

Well that's nice. What about the sustainability of the program? While I have a lot of respect for my grandparents generation (you're likely too young for that), I really feel that many of the people 65+ these days would gladly sell future generations out so that they can continue to afford 372 channels of HD digital cable and multiple vacations each year. Despite potentially having been retired for quite some time. I even put my parents in this category (they may only have 300 channels though). I've been paying in for a long time too - and will continue to do so. But I don't anticipate getting any of it back. And I wouldn't recommend a path based on my financial gain without considering future generations.

This argument reminds me of people in the fishing industry whining about quotas bringing up that their fathers and grandfathers have been fishing these waters for years. Pay no mind to the depleted stock. Just make an emotional plea about how "this is how it's always been."

Same with the timber industry at times.
 
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:00 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 33):
(you're likely too young for that),

I am certainly of the older generation. I still say, raise the ceiling, pay for every dime you make. They did it to us, let everyone pay, no exception. 1 trillion dollars of new revenue according to Hillary. That goes a long way. More jobs, goes further. There would not be a shortage if this country was on track, as it used to be. How can anyone swallow the bull from the right? When someone tells you they are going to screw you, as the advocates of the status quo do, believe them. The right says we will cut government spending, entitlements, they will try. They lie, too much money for the wealthy in government spending. Think big oil, farm subsidies, defense, to name a few. They are going to screw you all in the future, if they attain power. It is time to finally realize your station in life. Does anyone really think they are going to stop the upward flow of wealth?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:06 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 31):
Now the younger generation seem to have lost that faith. I have to wonder. Is it selfishness?

Well me personally, I have no problem with a safety net for the very old and disabled, but I don't see it as something to rely on. I don't want to put my eggs in the SS basket because unlike a retirement account that I own, it might not be there when I'm old. Plus, as I've said before, I don't think it should be something the elderly can use to go world traveling in their golden years... it's simply there for the people, for whatever reason, don't have their money saved from their whole life, and should put meals on the table and a decent roof over their heads.

I went many directions in this post, but I just see it differently than many older people see it nowadays. I don't want it expanded to pamper us all when we are older, I want it there as a last resort. JMO
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WarRI1
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:21 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):
I went many directions in this post, but I just see it differently than many older people see it nowadays. I don't want it expanded to pamper us all when we are older, I want it there as a last resort. JMO

I agree, it was put into place to give dignity to people in their old age. The generation before me, saw what they had to rely on during the Great Depression, most had nothing. I do not think anyone with just SS is going on vacation. Many of them would be in shelters if not for subsidized housing. The other night, they said there were openings in subsidized housing. 6000 showed up for applications. This in little R.I.
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jetblueguy22
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:03 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 23):
I leave it to the experts in government to come up with what is fair,
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 23):
I'll tell you this, what we are getting in my opinion is not based on reality, not nearly enough to come close to staying above water for those in real need, such as someone who only has SS as an income.

You just said that those in the government should decide which is fair, but those in need right now are not getting enough. Pardon my lack of understanding, but that doesn't make sense. Those same "experts" are the ones determining the levels right now.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 26):
I find that repugnant, to infer that old people, millions of them factory workers, who never had a shot at a pension, busted their balls working for the man, and ended up in a rented apartment to show for their years of toil are somehow greedy because they want to collect from a system they were promised would help them in their old age after years of paying taxes. I find that beyond the pale.

I don't think anybody is saying they are greedy at all. What I do think is being said is that we need to fix this quick, fast, and in a hurry or else those in similar situations in 20 years are really going to be in trouble.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 31):
hey made us a promise, we paid for years on that promise. Now the younger generation seem to have lost that faith. I have to wonder. Is it selfishness? Is it the worship of wealth, that is so prevalent on here, that made one blind to the corruption of our Democracy, our government? Is it the crooked politicians we elect? Is it the younger generation being gullible, listening to the naysayers? Is it the government haters spreading their hate? Is it the younger people not paying attention for many years, while it all went into the pockets of the wealthy. Is it the younger generation finally realizing that they might be screwed over along with the older folks who raised the younger generation?

I don't think doubt in Social Security is new at all. I was discussing this subject with my stepfather a couple months ago. He told me he remembered that when he started his job 26 years ago his boss telling him that by the time his kids were his age at the time there wouldn't be a penny left in social security. That he would never see a dime. Now here we sit in 2013 and he's telling me that by the time I have kids my age there won't be anything left. The problem is the same as it was 26 years ago. We don't have enough people paying in and too many people pulling from the pool. Do we need reform? Absolutely, but we need to keep the revenues coming in and stop saying because someone is rich they can't pull. SS is an entitlement program. You are entitled to that money when you reach the minimum age. Increase that bottom limit, that is fine. But blaming the younger generation is not the way to go. We didn't put the program on this path. Your generation's leaders did it.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 34):
1 trillion dollars of new revenue according to Hillary.

I don't doubt she said this. But I'd like to see some hard numbers on that. A trillion is a lot of money. Something just doesn't seem right to me.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 34):
There would not be a shortage if this country was on track, as it used to be. How can anyone swallow the bull from the right?

Huh? Bush tried to reform it and the left kicked and screamed that it was wrong. I have yet to see Obama come up with a comprehensive plan to overhaul the system. Fact of the matter is nobody is doing anything anymore but sitting on their rear pushing the problem away as it is charging at us like a herd of rhinos.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 34):
They are going to screw you all in the future, if they attain power. It is time to finally realize your station in life. Does anyone really think they are going to stop the upward flow of wealth?

I think you've read a few too many pamphlets from the left. Politicians whether left or right end up screwing us one way or another. The way they go about it though is different.
Pat
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BMI727
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:54 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 33):
I still say, raise the ceiling, pay for every dime you make. They did it to us, let everyone pay, no exception.

Above a certain income level people have no need or use for Social Security. To continue to force those people, likely the ones with the intelligence and discipline to save and invest wisely for decades, to contribute is only getting them to subsidize others who lacked the foresight.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 33):
How can anyone swallow the bull from the right?

It's not hard to see it isn't bull if you look at the numbers and factors involved.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 33):
When someone tells you they are going to screw you, as the advocates of the status quo do, believe them.

That's exactly what proponents of Social Security are trying to do. I'd much rather give people more freedom and snuff out the fuse before anything blows up.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 36):
I don't think doubt in Social Security is new at all.

It isn't new if you were paying attention.
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Mir
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:27 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 20):
Although they don't need the help they are entitled to that money just as someone who made $65,000 a year.

How about the money I'm paying in right now? Am I entitled to that? Because I'm probably not going to see all of it, if any of it. I don't see why it should be different for older generations if they don't need the help.

-Mir
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jetblueguy22
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:42 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 38):
Am I entitled to that? Because I'm probably not going to see all of it, if any of it. I don't see why it should be different for older generations if they don't need the help.

You are absolutely entitled to it. I'm not at all saying you aren't. But why do you deserve it more than they do? Did they not pay their share as well?
Pat
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ER757
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:00 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 32):
I really feel that many of the people 65+ these days would gladly sell future generations out so that they can continue to afford 372 channels of HD digital cable and multiple vacations each year

I'll let BMI727 repond - for once I think I'll share his selfish opinion. Wonder how that feels when the shoe's on the other foot:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25):
Not my problem.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:37 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 39):
You are absolutely entitled to it. I'm not at all saying you aren't. But why do you deserve it more than they do? Did they not pay their share as well?

I think it's the same line of reasoning as welfare. You and I pay into welfare through taxes (most of the poor don't) yet they are the ones drawing from the welfare. Aren't we entitled to draw from the welfare? That defeats the point of it

That's why I think people really need to define what SS is. Is it a safety net (like welfare?) If yes, then it should cover only enough for food and housing, nothing more, and only those whole absolutely need it should draw from it. I think I'm under this opinion. Or do we define it as that plus some pocket change? If that is the case, we should all be able to draw from it to some extent, but the contributions will be higher.

I'm perfectly fine with paying into it to keep seniors alive and healthy (without paying for their big screens and vacations) and never drawing from it myself, just my personal retirement fund. That way, the SS tax will be minimal. But defining the mission of SS is essential because I have different opinions depending on what we want SS to be
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BMI727
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:45 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
You and I pay into welfare through taxes (most of the poor don't) yet they are the ones drawing from the welfare.

Money out, nothing in. If that isn't a bad deal I don't know what is.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
Aren't we entitled to draw from the welfare?

We should be entitled to not pay into it since it's our money in the first place.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:53 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):

BMI... before you say you're answer is to "create a system where everyone can succeed on their own" don't you realize that no matter how ideal the circumstances that there will always be people that lose everything/have nothing??

Do you want these people to become homeless hooligans that break into your house and kill you for money or do you prefer to pay for basic welfare that gives them food and a roof over your head?

Your response always seems to be "not my problem" (which is wrong since an extremely impoverished class is everyone's problem) or what I outlined in the beginning of my post which I addressed. We agree on so much but there always seems to be a tiny portion that we don't but the consequences are often very large. You act like you can just ignore a bunch of completely broke people like they won't be a problem or that it's actually cheaper or even practical to just "hire more cops" to stop the mobs of starving poor people.

Blinding ideology is no good. You need to think realistically sometimes. I know you hate paying for the poor but even under the most realistically ideal situations, it's cheaper/more beneficial to have a minimum safety net than them roving around starving.
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WarRI1
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:57 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 36):
I leave it to the experts in government to come up with what is fair

That was said tongue in cheek, I do not think we have a say in the way it is run do you?

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 36):
You just said that those in the government should decide which is fair, but those in need right now are not getting enough. Pardon my lack of understanding, but that doesn't make sense. Those same "experts" are the ones determining the levels right now.

They most certainly are not getting enough, the ones in need. I know some personally, do you? I do not include myself at all. I most certainly do not need help. I will not refuse the money, when it is well known that many very wealthy take the money, I paid, they paid. I cannot be a hypocrite. I do say, eliminate the ceiling. Hillary said over ten years, 1 Trillion. I assume she would know, before putting that out there. I do not consider here a fool like so many other politicians. I am not a Hillary fan by the way.
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BMI727
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:18 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 43):
that there will always be people that lose everything/have nothing??

There will be, but that's on them. I'd rather they not take my money.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 43):
Do you want these people to become homeless hooligans that break into your house and kill you for money or do you prefer to pay for basic welfare that gives them food and a roof over your head?

If the money must be spent anyway, I'd rather spend it on larger police departments or living in a gated community. At least then you're rewarding people who presumably have been mostly responsible and somewhat educated.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:24 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
There will be, but that's on them. I'd rather they not take my money.

Again, you just ignore half the issue. What happens after it's "on them" and they don't get welfare?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
If the money must be spent anyway, I'd rather spend it on larger police departments or living in a gated community

And again, who says that's cheaper or even effective? You'd need a ton of police (that you'd have to pay salary and benefits for, more than just welfare money) instead of just paying welfare.


Your solutions are akin to me saying "I would rather make a system that makes everyone rich and no one poor and I keep all that money." Great. How is that realistic or possible? There are certain realities we have to deal with like there will always be poor people, those poor people will often turn to crime, and police can't stop everyone no matter how much money you throw that way (and it won't be cheaper either)
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:25 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 43):
it's cheaper/more beneficial to have a minimum safety net than them roving around starving.

It is also safer, too many guns around now.
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BMI727
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:45 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
What happens after it's "on them" and they don't get welfare?

That's for them to figure out.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
And again, who says that's cheaper or even effective? You'd need a ton of police (that you'd have to pay salary and benefits for, more than just welfare money) instead of just paying welfare.

I don't think you would. Liberals have this fantasy of poor people being savages who demand institutionalized protection money, but I don't buy that.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
There are certain realities we have to deal with like there will always be poor people, those poor people will often turn to crime, and police can't stop everyone no matter how much money you throw that way (and it won't be cheaper either)

There will always be poor people, and being poor is a problem. I'd prefer that problem be isolated to them and not spread to everyone.
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Mir
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RE: Older Americans Nix SS Changes In Poll.

Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:26 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 39):
You are absolutely entitled to it. I'm not at all saying you aren't. But why do you deserve it more than they do? Did they not pay their share as well?

Why do they deserve it more than me? My point is that if I'm going to be expected to give up my future Social Security benefits (which I'm pretty sure I am), then I don't see any problem with having well-off seniors now giving up some of their benefits. In both cases, people will be paying into the system and not getting a full return. I'm okay with that, but only if that pain is spread through various generations. I'm definitely not okay with letting the baby boomers keep their full benefits and stick the younger generations with all the pain.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
I'd prefer that problem be isolated to them and not spread to everyone.

Except that it never works that way. It's been tried, but it never works.

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