anrec80
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:52 pm

Tugger wrote:
Yes, the separatists and rebels and those loyal to the former Yanukovych leadership did sell a lot of weapons then. Some to get out of the county quick, others to cause chaos, but mostly because they could make a quick buck and things had broken down enough to make it possible.

I'm pretty sure those same people will more than likely see the business end of the new weapons. But there will certainly be some "leakage", there always is with weapons.

Tugg


Did USA supply firearms to rebels? Since when?

Ukraine has always been selling weapons they inherited from USSR - during Yanukovich and before him. Its today’s leaders see themselves as temporaries in their positions. Why would they not sell anything that’s of some value? They did it before, are doing it now and will keep using chances to make more $$$. Why not resell this US aid?
 
salttee
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:12 am

anrec80 wrote:
Why not resell this US aid?
This reveals your ethical mindset and is one more symptom of the lack of ethics on the part of the past and current rulers of the Soviet Union / Russia.
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:53 am

Dutchy wrote:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Can't comprihend what happens in your head when writing these most hilarish statements ..............


I can even tell you why - such facts just don’t fit into your view of this world. You believe that nations can only want to join your EU more than anything - despite Brexit. You believe that Yanukovich “ran away” or “citizens kicked him out”, despite Obama hints and recent Biden revelations. Trump won - it’s “Russian meddling” despite that Democrats lost everything they could have and then some. And despite known and widely admitted American meddling into many countries’ policical processes, and even wars that followed when such meddling didn’t succeed. And there are more examples of course.

What can I tell you my friend - need to think more, and move away from beliefs that this world consists of a few axioms that explain all social and political processes. These processses are very complex and can’t be described by a few axioms like you are trying to. That’s about it.
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:56 am

salttee wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Why not resell this US aid?
This reveals your ethical mindset and is one more symptom of the lack of ethics on the part of the past and current rulers of the Soviet Union / Russia.


This is not my ethical mind set - did I ever supported bugging for international aid or providing it? Or are you one of those believers that USA sent the aid to Ukraine, and it was Putin who sold it? Vast majority of Ukrainians agree that they intended to kick out corrupt thieves from governing positions, but instead brought not only much bigger, uglier and corrupted thieves, but also war criminals. Why do you think they can’t lobby out some aid with intent to resell it?

I agree that there were many fair claims against Soviet or post-Soviet leaders, but it’s also true that more often than not Western intrusion a-la Maidan was bringing to power characters by far more corrupt and dangerous than the world has ever seen before.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:09 am

anrec80 wrote:
Did USA supply firearms to rebels? Since when?

Yes, at the beginning when things were falling apart, unintentionally or by theft and coercion. Rebels weren't declared, and some were in the military etc. And as I noted in my post and you conveniently ignored, others that were sympathetic to or part of the Yanukovych administration had access to and sold them for cash or to get out. And finally I also said there is and always be "leakage" with weapons sales.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:13 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Can't comprihend what happens in your head when writing these most hilarish statements ..............


I can even tell you why - such facts just don’t fit into your view of this world. You believe that nations can only want to join your EU more than anything - despite Brexit. You believe that Yanukovich “ran away” or “citizens kicked him out”, despite Obama hints and recent Biden revelations. Trump won - it’s “Russian meddling” despite that Democrats lost everything they could have and then some. And despite known and widely admitted American meddling into many countries’ policical processes, and even wars that followed when such meddling didn’t succeed. And there are more examples of course.

What can I tell you my friend - need to think more, and move away from beliefs that this world consists of a few axioms that explain all social and political processes. These processses are very complex and can’t be described by a few axioms like you are trying to. That’s about it.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Can't comprihend what happens in your head when writing these most hilarish assesments ..............
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:25 am

Dutchy wrote:
Can't comprihend what happens in your head when writing these most hilarish assesments ..............


Just attempts to think independently, my friend, and form my own opinion, based on my own life experiences. If you can’t comprehend it - I suggest you stop trying. It’s gonna be harder and harder on you...
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:29 am

Tugger wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Did USA supply firearms to rebels? Since when?

Yes, at the beginning when things were falling apart, unintentionally or by theft and coercion. Rebels weren't declared, and some were in the military etc. And as I noted in my post and you conveniently ignored, others that were sympathetic to or part of the Yanukovych administration had access to and sold them for cash or to get out. And finally I also said there is and always be "leakage" with weapons sales.

Tugg


I did not ignore it. What I kept saying is that firearms trade under post-Yanukovich leaders flourishes more than ever before. And let’s not get into all issues around “leakage” of US firearms, “unintentional theft” and the likes - this is exactly how ISIS became possible. And - receipt of USD 300 million firearms aid in 2014 (already with American admiree Yatsenyuk) and immediate resale of this whole thing - isn’t leakage. It’s intentional business transaction.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:43 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Can't comprihend what happens in your head when writing these most hilarish assesments ..............


Just attempts to think independently, my friend, and form my own opinion, based on my own life experiences. If you can’t comprehend it - I suggest you stop trying. It’s gonna be harder and harder on you...


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Can't comprihend what happens in your head when writing these most hilarish fiction ..............
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:13 am

anrec80 wrote:
I did not ignore it. What I kept saying is that firearms trade under post-Yanukovich leaders flourishes more than ever before. And let’s not get into all issues around “leakage” of US firearms, “unintentional theft” and the likes - this is exactly how ISIS became possible. And - receipt of USD 300 million firearms aid in 2014 (already with American admiree Yatsenyuk) and immediate resale of this whole thing - isn’t leakage. It’s intentional business transaction.

Well then you ignore available information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_ ... nt_of_ISIL
https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallar ... f-isis.asp
https://sputniknews.com/military/201512 ... ns-rifles/

It wasn't US weapons that created ISIS or the crisis in Syria etc. They are there and part of the problem of course but in fact as usual, Russian weapons dominate.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
salttee
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:53 am

anrec80 wrote:
it’s also true that more often than not Western intrusion a-la Maidan

You need to face the fact that the Maidan rioters were 100% Ukrainian.

anrec80 wrote:
was bringing to power characters by far more corrupt and dangerous than the world has ever seen before.
Oh, come on, surely if you take a second look at that passage you'll see how laughable the hyperbole is. And from where do you think the Ukrainians learned their corrupt habits? Or at least why do you think the Ukrainians never seemed to notice how out of step they were with the European states as far as corruption goes? All the CIS states were corrupt to the core.
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:11 am

salttee wrote:
You need to face the fact that the Maidan rioters were 100% Ukrainian.


Oh, come on, surely if you take a second look at that passage you'll see how laughable the hyperbole is. And from where do you think the Ukrainians learned their corrupt habits? Or at least why do you think the Ukrainians never seemed to notice how out of step they were with the European states as far as corruption goes? All the CIS states were corrupt to the core.[/quote]

Yes, rioters were Ukrainian (one-off visitors from other countries are unavoidable in such scenarios, but other than Saakashvili we can omit them). But - te key decision makers around Maindan, folks who were on the phone with Yanukovich and then-opposition, all EU leaders on Maidan stage - those were not. And - things were dependent on on rioters, but on all of those Western leaders. Who then recognized the coup.

Yes, what’s wrong with it? And - wait a min - do you think Putin somehow is involved into Ukrainian corruption? As if he comes there personally and corrupts otherwise completely honest and ethical people?

Corruption is a function of quality of of state’s institutions and leadership. If they are absent or degrade - anyone will “learn” corrupted habits very fast, if they believe there will be no consequences for such behavior. Pro-Western leaders were in power from 1991-1994, and 2005-2010. Who prevented them from building and reforming existing institution to drastically cut the corruption? Nobody. They didn’t do it because in Ukraine nobody never wanted a position in order to fight corruption, everyone always wanted it in order to service interests of theirs, and their business clan. Yanukovich, his predecessors and today’s leadership especially aren’t exception to this rule.

Ukrainians had more than fair share of opportunity to fix up and build out their statehood. But time after time they kept failing to recognize and elect leadership that would do it. Now - time is out, they are out of economic resource to maintain their statehood for much longer. Who knows what is next in store for that poor territory.
 
salttee
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:44 am

anrec80 wrote:
key decision makers around Maindan, folks who were on the phone with Yanukovich and then-opposition, all EU leaders on Maidan stage - those were not. And - things were dependent on on rioters, but on all of those Western leaders. Who then recognized the coup.
If there were westerners on the phones with Ukrainian politicos, they could not have been active players from afar, but rather were seeking information. Which only seems logical, there is no secret that various peoples in the west were very interested in Ukraine.

You really have to accept the obvious fact that Yanukovych was driven out by grass roots Ukrainian rejection of him and his programs. To this day the vast majority of Ukrainian people stand behind the concept of turning towards the west.

anrec80 wrote:
do you think Putin somehow is involved into Ukrainian corruption? As if he comes there personally and corrupts otherwise completely honest and ethical people?
I strongly suspect that that part of the world have always been corrupt by European standards. However the Soviet era hindered any movement towards modernity, including creating more just mores among the people. I do consider Putin to be a leftover from the Soviet era.
anrec80 wrote:
Corruption is a function of quality of of state’s institutions and leadership. If they are absent or degrade - anyone will “learn” corrupted habits very fast, if they believe there will be no consequences for such behavior. Pro-Western leaders were in power from 1991-1994, and 2005-2010. Who prevented them from building and reforming existing institution to drastically cut the corruption? Nobody. They didn’t do it because in Ukraine nobody never wanted a position in order to fight corruption, everyone always wanted it in order to service interests of theirs, and their business clan. Yanukovich, his predecessors and today’s leadership especially aren’t exception to this rule.
The evolution from regressive societal structures of the past takes place at a glacially slow pace. A few years of leaning towards western Europe could not create conditions that had never existed before in an ex-CIS state.

anrec80 wrote:
Ukrainians had more than fair share of opportunity to fix up and build out their statehood. But time after time they kept failing to recognize and elect leadership that would do it. Now - time is out, they are out of economic resource to maintain their statehood for much longer. Who knows what is next in store for that poor territory.
Even if Russia withdrew from their country and became a friendly peaceful neighbor, and Ukraine remained on the track of bringing itself into the European community, it would take many decades before they could be free from the past.
 
anrec80
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:49 am

salttee wrote:
If there were westerners on the phones with Ukrainian politicos, they could not have been active players from afar, but rather were seeking information. Which only seems logical, there is no secret that various peoples in the west were very interested in Ukraine.

Biden - to Yanukovich: "it's over, you have to leave Kiev". Or, as Biden put it - "I ordered him to leave Kiev". This is NOT information gathering. Anything but. And Nuland in American embassy with her infamous "f@ck the EU; we are in the game" - is that also information gathering?

salttee wrote:
You really have to accept the obvious fact that Yanukovych was driven out by grass roots Ukrainian rejection of him and his programs. To this day the vast majority of Ukrainian people stand behind the concept of turning towards the west.


There is nothing to accept; there never was such a fact, and still there is not. Before this bloody mess, it's been fluctuating 50-50 between pro-Western position and a rather neutral one (which was marketed as pro-Russian, but truly pro-Russian political parties were a minority there not exceeding 10% at their best times). 50% support for Western integration were fueled largely by talks of EUR 2000 pensions and EUR 4000 salaries (and those promises fueled Maidan as well), plus images of strolls around Paris. Now those dreams in the society are broken completely, and turn towards the West associates in their mind with poverty, shut down markets and war. Majority of Ukrainians just want to return to where they were before, including desires to return Yanukovich. I even think if he was to run in a democratic election, free from "right sector" gangs, he has a strong chance.

salttee wrote:
The evolution from regressive societal structures of the past takes place at a glacially slow pace. A few years of leaning towards western Europe could not create conditions that had never existed before in an ex-CIS state.

It's not a few years, we are talking almost 3 decades here. This is generous amount of time for at least something to emerge. And - the former Regional party had some politicians in it on secondary roles (vice-PMs, visible MPs) that were capable of improving the country and improving governance drastically. Without this coup, it would have taken 2-3 more electoral cycles in order for quality of governance to improve noticeably. But now these emerging institutions are destroyed, and the poor territory is thrown back by a few decades of developoment. The Regional party was just about to start performing a role of an institution, as opposed to a party created for an ambitious politician or an oligarch (which almost all of existing parties there are). And they should not have been told where to lean - they should make this decision themselves. And frankly, it's pro-Western politicians that were the most corrupt. In addition, they don't have and never had a pro-Western political party that could have eventually emerged as an institution; they were all "chieftain" type parties assembled under a specific person or people.

salttee wrote:
Even if Russia withdrew from their country and became a friendly peaceful neighbor, and Ukraine remained on the track of bringing itself into the European community, it would take many decades before they could be free from the past.


Aren't you yet annoyed at these talks of "Russia being in Ukraine"? Very few in Ukraine believe that. In addition - nobody there has ever seen even a single "aggressor", neither dead nor alive, for all of these 4 years. In the recent prisoners exchange, every single one of about 400 people from both sides is a Ukrainian citizen. Ukrainian military officials stated number of times that they don't conduct any operations against regular Russian troops. What more do you want?

Speaking of being free from the past - those nations who don't have their history generally don't have any future either. Yes, Soviet times were part of Ukrainian history. This time was harsh in some ways, but also full of glorious achievements. They themselves must determine how to treat this period in their history, and not be offered to "free themselves from it". Speaking of European track - in CIS, countries who do follow it (Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine) are significantly poorer than those who do not, and more corrupted.

Speaking of the territory's future - I think it's in hands of Russia. It's the only neighbor that has force resource to rebuild institutions shattered by all recent mess, provide financial resources for that, and provide markets for Ukrainians to sell their products so that they can earn $$$ to invest into their statehood. Provided that at some point Russia will care about it. Without that - they'll become yet another failed statehood that Eastern Europe has quite a few of.
 
WIederling
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:34 pm

salttee wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
it’s also true that more often than not Western intrusion a-la Maidan

You need to face the fact that the Maidan rioters were 100% Ukrainian.


The snipers that shot at everybody were from Georgia. ( and afaiks paid by western interests.
you see similar in Syria. Assad having protesters shot ever made all that much sense.)

In another vein:
Lots of weapons that were made accessible to ISIS traveled via Jordan ( delivered by C-17 :-) and the Ukraine.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:36 pm

Tugger wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Did USA supply firearms to rebels? Since when?

Yes, at the beginning when things were falling apart, unintentionally or by theft and coercion. Rebels weren't declared, and some were in the military etc. And as I noted in my post and you conveniently ignored, others that were sympathetic to or part of the Yanukovych administration had access to and sold them for cash or to get out. And finally I also said there is and always be "leakage" with weapons sales.


Directly the US inserted lots of synthetic "Free Syria Democratic Fighters" with lavish supply of weapons.
These invariably folded and "changed sides" towards ISIS handing over their weapons supply to same.

At the recent finish large groups of ISIS fighter seem to have "diffused" into US supported groupings.
( i.e. the US rescued them for use in another (new) conflict. Lets see where that is kicked off.)

Indirectly US and SA were very busy moving those cannibal Islamists into Syria well supplied.
for quite some time the SAA was solely opposed by inserted foreign fighters.

The "original" Syrian opposition was completely marginalized in a short time.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Tugger
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:22 pm

WIederling wrote:
Tugger wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Did USA supply firearms to rebels? Since when?

Yes, at the beginning when things were falling apart, unintentionally or by theft and coercion. Rebels weren't declared, and some were in the military etc. And as I noted in my post and you conveniently ignored, others that were sympathetic to or part of the Yanukovych administration had access to and sold them for cash or to get out. And finally I also said there is and always be "leakage" with weapons sales.


Directly the US inserted lots of synthetic "Free Syria Democratic Fighters" with lavish supply of weapons.
These invariably folded and "changed sides" towards ISIS handing over their weapons supply to same.

At the recent finish large groups of ISIS fighter seem to have "diffused" into US supported groupings.
( i.e. the US rescued them for use in another (new) conflict. Lets see where that is kicked off.)

Indirectly US and SA were very busy moving those cannibal Islamists into Syria well supplied.
for quite some time the SAA was solely opposed by inserted foreign fighters.

The "original" Syrian opposition was completely marginalized in a short time.

Yes but again the majority of weapons are not US, they are fact Russian, French, German, etc.

The story you quote has happened forever, from the Frech and Russian revolutions, to Vietnam and Afghanistan. And it go on forever probably in human societies.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:29 pm

WIederling wrote:
salttee wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
it’s also true that more often than not Western intrusion a-la Maidan

You need to face the fact that the Maidan rioters were 100% Ukrainian.


The snipers that shot at everybody were from Georgia. ( and afaiks paid by western interests.
you see similar in Syria. Assad having protesters shot ever made all that much sense.)

In another vein:
Lots of weapons that were made accessible to ISIS traveled via Jordan ( delivered by C-17 :-) and the Ukraine.


Proof all your statements here, or it is just blablablabla with no use at all.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:40 pm

Tugger wrote:
Yes but again the majority of weapons are not US, they are fact Russian, French, German, etc.


Those are much cheaper ( Russian and Bulgaria stuff ) and less telling.
There is no requirement that US provided weapons must be US manufactured weapons.
This has always been handled in the most convoluted way possible.
Think about the Iran contra affair ( for once those activities were reasonably well documented.)

Seymour Hersh seems to have researched a US source for weapons:
https://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m ... e-rat-line

the US appears deeply involved on the ISIS side.Still are.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:58 pm

WIederling wrote:
the US appears deeply involved on the ISIS side.Still are.


In your mind or something, you want to appear to be true.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:19 am

Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
the US appears deeply involved on the ISIS side.Still are.


In your mind or something, you want to appear to be true.


Just words or do you have some factual counter to Seymour Hersh's research?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:38 am

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
the US appears deeply involved on the ISIS side.Still are.


In your mind or something, you want to appear to be true.


Just words or do you have some factual counter to Seymour Hersh's research?


Now you believe in facts? Good for you, join us on the light side. Well, there are a number of questions open to you, so perhaps you find some time to answer them? You are the king of making statements without backing it up.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:57 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Quoting Redd (Reply 48):Not potentially ruin some young persons life that's just barely starting out because some politicians thought it would be a grand idea to bring other people's (and not their own) kids into the military.
I can't see how it ruins anyone's life, both my brother in laws and all of my Norwegian friends who were conscripted all enjoyed it. In Norway no politicians child would be exempted, it's not that kind of country. I hope it's still around when my children come of age, in in Norway females are now eligible for service if they choose to.


IMU a bit of public service as an adult starter is a good thing (TM)
( not valid for nations that go beyond defense and think foreign wars is the way to go.)

For France going to a career army created the environment for the Banlieue riots and
thus the foundation for the recent terrorist attacks.
( Conscription was France's perfectly working way to integrate the colonial minorities.)

Stopping conscrription in Germany hasn't run long enough to develop this kind of festering "carbuncles".
though I think AfD could be connected with younger Germans lacking in "Staatsbürgerkunde" .
Murphy is an optimist
 
salttee
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:34 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Biden - to Yanukovich: "it's over, you have to leave Kiev". Or, as Biden put it - "I ordered him to leave Kiev". This is NOT information gathering. Anything but.
Biden - to Yanukovich is one diplomat talking to his equal in another country aka diplomacy.
anrec80 wrote:
And Nuland in American embassy with her infamous "f@ck the EU; we are in the game" - is that also information gathering?
That's just the dialogue between two team members talking between each other. It is without context in this discussion. Are you objecting to the fact that US diplomats talk dirty between each other? Or are you just groping for an insult?
anrec80 wrote:
There is nothing to accept; there never was such a fact, and still there is not. Before this bloody mess, it's been fluctuating 50-50 between pro-Western position and a rather neutral one (which was marketed as pro-Russian, but truly pro-Russian political parties were a minority there not exceeding 10% at their best times). 50% support for Western integration were fueled largely by talks of EUR 2000 pensions and EUR 4000 salaries (and those promises fueled Maidan as well), plus images of strolls around Paris. Now those dreams in the society are broken completely, and turn towards the West associates in their mind with poverty, shut down markets and war.
Your statistical analysis lack any supporting data and the facts on the ground contradict your claims.
anrec80 wrote:
Majority of Ukrainians just want to return to where they were before, including desires to return Yanukovich. I even think if he was to run in a democratic election, free from "right sector" gangs, he has a strong chance.
Again you are just making things up. The facts are that the country of Ukraine wants Russia to stop meddling in its business.
anrec80 wrote:
It's not a few years, we are talking almost 3 decades here.
It wasn't until Yanukovich was tossed out that the Russian faction of the Ukrainian government was expelled. That hasn't been three decades. You talk as if you (or the Russian society) is the overseer for the Ukrainian people. They are a separate country you need to accept that fact. You, or Russia, are not their daddy.
anrec80 wrote:
Aren't you yet annoyed at these talks of "Russia being in Ukraine"? In addition - nobody there has ever seen even a single "aggressor", neither dead nor alive, for all of these 4 years. In the recent prisoners exchange, every single one of about 400 people from both sides is a Ukrainian citizen. Ukrainian military officials stated number of times that they don't conduct any operations against regular Russian troops. What more do you want?
That line of BS will only sell inside of Russia. You're wasting your time trying to push that off on westerners.
anrec80 wrote:
Very few in Ukraine believe that.
You need to stop stating your wishes as fact.
anrec80 wrote:
They themselves must determine how to treat this period in their history....
Exactly, so it is time for you to tend to your own business and leave them alone.
anrec80 wrote:
Speaking of European track - in CIS, countries who do follow it (Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine) are significantly poorer than those who do not, and more corrupted.
Where are the well to do countries that have rejected the west? Please make a list.
anrec80 wrote:
Speaking of the territory's future - I think it's in hands of Russia.
That statement of itself is practically a declaration of war. That attitude on your part is the problem.
 
tu204
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:46 pm

Tugger wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
At least this is what happened with firearms aid they received back in 2014 - within a week from arrival, it was sent to Syriah, to one of Assad’s generals.

Yes, the separatists and rebels and those loyal to the former Yanukovych leadership did sell a lot of weapons then. Some to get out of the county quick, others to cause chaos, but mostly because they could make a quick buck and things had broken down enough to make it possible.

I'm pretty sure those same people will more than likely see the business end of the new weapons. But there will certainly be some "leakage", there always is with weapons.

Tugg


Why are you singling out the rebels? In many scenarios the rebels were on the recieving end of the shipments bound for Ukraine.

You do realise that the current Ukrainian regime is as bad if not worse than the previous when it comes to robbing the country, right? Difference is that the previous corrupt regime of Yanukovitch left a little for ordinary citizens after robbing the country oh, and he didn't start a civil war that has killed somewhere around 10,000 people. You be the judge of which of these guys is the worse bastard :roll:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Tugger
Posts: 7276
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:38 pm

tu204 wrote:
Y the previous corrupt regime of Yanukovitch left a little for ordinary citizens after robbing the country

Well at least acknowledge that Yanukovych is/was corrupt, so you therefore understand why the population wanted him gone ad over threw him before he could force through changes in the law that would have secured him in his position of stealing from the country.

Now one question of course is why if you/Russia knew and know him to be corrupt, why the Russian leadership would not turn him over to the authorities in the country you acknowledge he stole from.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
tu204
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:32 am

Tugger wrote:
Now one question of course is why if you/Russia knew and know him to be corrupt, why the Russian leadership would not turn him over to the authorities in the country you acknowledge he stole from.

Tugg


Well thats a pretty easy one to answer. Because there is no way that Yanukovitch can recieve a fair trial from the current regime in Ukraine. Thats the standard practice in the world btw, do not extradite to a country where the person will not recieve a fair trial.

Maybe when the current junta in Kiev is overthrown after the people get fed up with being screwed in their arses even more he will be extradited. If he doesn't get Russian citizenship of course. (As you may know, the Russian Federation's constitution does not allow the extradition of it's citizens.)

I am though curious as to Victor Yanukovitch's current legal status in the Russian Federation - is he a refugee or just a "tourist"?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 4612
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:50 am

I have decided not to react to these bogus Russia threads anymore, no point in rebottling all these non-sense coming from the Putin groupies/trolls here. It just drains energy and accomplishes nothing.

Have fun guys and have a good 2018!
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1560
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:28 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I have decided not to react to these bogus Russia threads anymore, no point in rebottling all these non-sense coming from the Putin groupies/trolls here. It just drains energy and accomplishes nothing.

Have fun guys and have a good 2018!


Yeah obviously when you have your head in the sand and are unable to see things from a different perspective other than your own.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4612
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:37 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I have decided not to react to these bogus Russia threads anymore, no point in rebottling all these non-sense coming from the Putin groupies/trolls here. It just drains energy and accomplishes nothing.

Have fun guys and have a good 2018!


Yeah obviously when you have your head in the sand and are unable to see things from a different perspective other than your own.



Best wishes to you too Tu204, have a great 2018! As I said not going to take the bait anymore, sorry.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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