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Tugger
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Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:27 pm

So I guess "Only Nixon could go to China" will go for Trump, he has offered up what conservatives have fought for years: Price negotiation and competition for pharmaceuticals.

By having pharmaceuticals bid to provide government business it will drive costs down, but it has been disallowed for years by Congress, in particular conservative supporters. Medicare etc. has wanted the right to negotiate or request competitive bids for a long time. Lets see if it can happen finally.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ce-bidding

Tugg
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Hillis
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:33 pm

Won't happen. I don't believe a thing that comes out of the man's mouth. He's just yanking our chains.
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Francoflier
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:07 pm

Isn't the inability to allow a real free market in pharmaceuticals (which the GOP has always fought tooth and nail) the reason Obamacare ended up being so expensive and reviled?

I actually agree on Trump that the market should be a lot more competitive, but I have no doubt that he has no idea how to achieve that, as with most things. Not to mention that he would have to fight the entire majority which, ironically, got elected thanks to him.

Once again, just empty words to fool the dumb masses, while he appoints another family member or big-bank / big-oil exec and sweeps his Russian collusion allegations under the carpet.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:13 pm

This will probably be one of the things Congress will ignore from Trump. The fact that the Republicans control the executive branch does not mean they'll obey Trump's whims. In a similar manner, Trump could also veto a bill he doesn't agree with. Of course, Ryan and McConnell face bigger pressure from their caucuses and constituents to follow or not follow Trump's plans.

Expect a Twitter war.
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cjg225
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:46 pm

Maybe other countries should pony up for some pharma research and production start-up.
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B777LRF
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:57 pm

cjg225 wrote:
Maybe other countries should pony up for some pharma research and production start-up.


Oh, you mean like, I don't know, maybe the Swiss? Or Swedes? Or Danes? Or Germans?

If you're unhappy with US.gov bankrolling pharmaresearch (where, by the way, is the proof of this happening?), whilst the pharma companies scores the profit, well, you're just being un-American!
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
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moo
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:59 pm

cjg225 wrote:
Maybe other countries should pony up for some pharma research and production start-up.


Roche, Novartis, Sanofi, Novo Nordisk, Bayer, Allergan, AstraZenica, Shire Pharmaceuticals, Teva Pharmaceutical, GlaxoSmithKline. Thats nearly half of the top 25 pharmaceutical companies in the world.

Countries outside the US *are* investing in pharmaceutical research. Its a myth that all investment comes from the US.
 
bhill
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:06 pm

Fat Chance...follow the money. Pharma has contributed more lobbying $$ than ANY other industry...
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cjg225
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:21 pm

B777LRF wrote:
[Oh, you mean like, I don't know, maybe the Swiss? Or Swedes? Or Danes? Or Germans?

If you're unhappy with US.gov bankrolling pharmaresearch (where, by the way, is the proof of this happening?), whilst the pharma companies scores the profit, well, you're just being un-American!

moo wrote:
Roche, Novartis, Sanofi, Novo Nordisk, Bayer, Allergan, AstraZenica, Shire Pharmaceuticals, Teva Pharmaceutical, GlaxoSmithKline. Thats nearly half of the top 25 pharmaceutical companies in the world.

Countries outside the US *are* investing in pharmaceutical research. Its a myth that all investment comes from the US.

Yes, because where a company is corporately headquartered surely means that that location is where all their activity takes place.
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ER757
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:21 pm

bhill wrote:
Fat Chance...follow the money. Pharma has contributed more lobbying $$ than ANY other industry...

***ding, ding, ding*** we have a winner!
It's a great idea, and hardly an original one by The Donald, but he's going to find out REAL fast how things work in Washington.
 
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moo
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:58 pm

cjg225 wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
[Oh, you mean like, I don't know, maybe the Swiss? Or Swedes? Or Danes? Or Germans?

If you're unhappy with US.gov bankrolling pharmaresearch (where, by the way, is the proof of this happening?), whilst the pharma companies scores the profit, well, you're just being un-American!

moo wrote:
Roche, Novartis, Sanofi, Novo Nordisk, Bayer, Allergan, AstraZenica, Shire Pharmaceuticals, Teva Pharmaceutical, GlaxoSmithKline. Thats nearly half of the top 25 pharmaceutical companies in the world.

Countries outside the US *are* investing in pharmaceutical research. Its a myth that all investment comes from the US.

Yes, because where a company is corporately headquartered surely means that that location is where all their activity takes place.


Care to actually come up with a decent reply? Your "observation" applies equally to the other 13 or so top 25 pharma companies who are US... didn't think of that, now did you?
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:19 pm

i am not sure how this would work. the company that makes the medicine i take spent millions of dollars on research.
they charged me 9k for 30 pills, then when Elizabeth Warren held pharmaceuticals CEO feet under the fire.
magically the price dropped down to 5,800k for 30 pills.

the company said it had nothing to do with CEO being grilled on life saving medicine. They said they were able to drop the cost because the drug was now two years old
and most of the cost for research had been paid.

however, under auditing, it shows that most of the money they make does not go to research, but to the CEO's.

If Trump can do something about the greed going on in pharmaceutical industries i would be impressed.
 
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cjg225
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:10 pm

moo wrote:
Care to actually come up with a decent reply? Your "observation" applies equally to the other 13 or so top 25 pharma companies who are US... didn't think of that, now did you?

Yes, I did think of that. And it doesn't help much since your reply and the other quoted reply implied that research is located where the company is corporately headquartered, an element I didn't bring into the conversation because it's largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of manufacturing. You can be based anywhere you want; it's where you actually do works that matters.

And I still stand by the point that the US hosts most pharma research and production start-up costs. It's not that hard to look at the the pharma research landscape and see where most of it is based. Production is different story; that's much more spread out across the world. But the R&D and tech transfer areas are heavily concentrated in the US.

US prices are higher in large part because other countries, with their much stricter government controls on pricing, won't give pharma companies enough to offset their R&D and tech transfer costs. The prices outside the US help cover ongoing production costs and that's about it.
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ltbewr
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:26 pm

Ban most consumer advertising and marketing to doctors. Billions are spent on TV ads in the USA, salespersons to talk to doctors, freebees to buyers and doctors (although much of that has disappeared), paying doctors to do seminars to plug their drugs.
Try to limit in the USA lawsuits, how much lawyers can get in contingency fees, have court appointed neutral experts appointed by Judges to end the costly battles of the experts. Penalize lawyers who bring frivolous lawsuits.
Make sure clinical trials are done right to limit the huge costs of lawsuits from drugs found out to have severe side effects.
Mandate production of drugs in the USA for the USA market. At least some of the money being made comes back to the USA.
Research costs are a problem. A company may spend 100 Million + on a promising drug and it turns out to be a bust, so have to recoup the costs elsewhere but some formula should be developed to recoup for failed drugs fairer. I would also also note the taxpayer monies spent on developing new drugs and related research so the government and taxpayers should get some of that back in lower costs.
Rework the tax laws to encourage research but limit marketing, excessive pay to business side executives.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:26 pm

If Trump can do something about the greed going on in pharmaceutical industries i would be impressed.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:10 am

100% of projects start out in academia, where the fundamental science is best. unfortunately the relative cost of this work is coated to what the industry willing to pay.

If you are to believe big pharma it cost 5 billion approximately to get a new drug approved by the FDA They claim most of the money goes down the tube trying to jump over hurdles set up by big government. However the people complaining are CEO's who live James Bond styled life complete with mansions, yachts and jets. Should we believe them?

They are already made at the government for allowing a generic industry to benefit after a certain time period from all the R&D they supposedly paid for. Yet, are they really paying for it? most of the research is actually funded by the taxpayer since surprise surprise big Pharc biggest customer is our government health care system.

It's all smoke and mirrors. So if Trump wants to step through this pile of dong, Great!
 
Hillis
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:24 am

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
If Trump can do something about the greed going on in pharmaceutical industries i would be impressed.


Since he is about greed himself, I don't hold my breath. I think you'll see the opposite effect.
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DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:01 am

Trump likes to negotiate with businesses so let's see him do his magic. i have low expectations, but it sure would be nice if he surprised us.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:01 am

besides, it's better than he starts his negotiations skills at home before he takes on China.
Last edited by DLFREEBIRD on Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Mir
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:02 am

Credit where credit is due: this should happen. I don't trust Trump to have a fair and open bidding process and not have it be a corrupt mess, but I'll at least give him the credit for coming out in favor of the idea.
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Aesma
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:24 pm

What if a drug has no competitor ?
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tommy1808
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:47 pm

Aesma wrote:
What if a drug has no competitor ?


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Flighty
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:05 pm

He will get it done. People keep doubting him, he keeps delivering results.

He is the leader of the Republican Party. If Republicans do not like him, they can retire from politics (and I hope many of them do so incredibly quickly).
 
Calder
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:52 pm

Important to note that the US is one of only 2 or 3 countries where pharmaceutical manufacturers are allowed to advertise direct to consumers.

I believe one of the others is New Zealand, and I can't recall the 3rd (if their is one).
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:01 pm

Flighty wrote:
He will get it done. People keep doubting him, he keeps delivering results.


What exactly has he delivered on so far that should make us expect results from him? (Genuine question)

Flighty wrote:
He is the leader of the Republican Party. If Republicans do not like him, they can retire from politics (and I hope many of them do so incredibly quickly).


That's not how politics work.
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bhill
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:46 pm

You folks are missing the point....We KNOW new cutting edge drugs are expensive, and prolly not covered under insurance. The issue is why EXISTING drugs, even generics are ridiculousness priced . Recent event are replete with the bullshit that Pharma is pulling...

Epi pens
Statins
MPH is one I take...Long Acting formulation is EXPENSIVE....for a drug that WWII pilots used to stay awake on long flight missions
And this is but a small sample.

BTW, the US Government DOES grant Pharma R&D dollars....and we wind up paying TWICE if you by the "we need to recoup R&D costs" arguments..

We are being SCREWED pure and simple.....and when Pharma has the balls to flip the Congressional Panels the bird under oath??!!!

Fuck 'em.....Nationalize the lot of them,
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:07 pm

Flighty wrote:
He is the leader of the Republican Party. If Republicans do not like him, they can retire from politics (and I hope many of them do so incredibly quickly).

Or you know, they can just ignore him and push whatever bills they want in Congress. Trump can veto them, but he can't force Congress to do what he wants (whether Trump understands this is another question).
 
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:43 am

Calder wrote:
Important to note that the US is one of only 2 or 3 countries where pharmaceutical manufacturers are allowed to advertise direct to consumers.

I believe one of the others is New Zealand, and I can't recall the 3rd (if their is one).


Its Israel.
 
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:48 am

moo wrote:
cjg225 wrote:
Maybe other countries should pony up for some pharma research and production start-up.


Roche, Novartis, Sanofi, Novo Nordisk, Bayer, Allergan, AstraZenica, Shire Pharmaceuticals, Teva Pharmaceutical, GlaxoSmithKline. Thats nearly half of the top 25 pharmaceutical companies in the world.

Countries outside the US *are* investing in pharmaceutical research. Its a myth that all investment comes from the US.


No but we in the US are paying for it no doubt. The rest of the world negotiates the rates they will pay for drugs but they stick it to the people in the United States. Let me ask the people on this board who live in other countries since I do not have access to your televisions. Do any of you outside of the US have non stop commercials from drug companies like we do here when you are watching you favorite football match? We subsidize the rest of the world when it comes to drugs and that is a solid fact.
 
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:29 am

stratosphere wrote:
No but we in the US are paying for it no doubt. The rest of the world negotiates the rates they will pay for drugs but they stick it to the people in the United States. Let me ask the people on this board who live in other countries since I do not have access to your televisions. Do any of you outside of the US have non stop commercials from drug companies like we do here when you are watching you favorite football match? We subsidize the rest of the world when it comes to drugs and that is a solid fact.


Yes we have some adverts, usually for painkillers, drugs against cold etc. but not that many. (Denmark) I don't think you are subsidizing the rest of the world when it comes to drugs. You are subsidizing the solid profits of the pharma industry.
 
seb146
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:52 am

We keep hearing from the right how competition for anything is good because it drives prices down. The fact is, the opposite happens. And all of this fretting over profits for health care is coming from the party of "every life is sacred."
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Francoflier
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:00 am

stratosphere wrote:
We subsidize the rest of the world when it comes to drugs and that is a solid fact.


Feelings, hearsay and gross generalizations are now called solid facts? no wonder Trump won. We truly have completely lost touch with reality and pragmatism.

The US doesn't subsidize anyone other than their own pharmaceutical companies. No company, American or other, is held at gunpoint by 'the rest of the World' to sell them cheap drugs. What happens is that countries with organized healthcare systems and governments which do not side unilaterally with businesses over their citizens are able to negotiate the price they will pay for medicine.

Let me reassure you, pharma companies still very much profit from it, they're just not applying grossly over-inflated margins on their drugs as they do in America because the US healthcare system and government lets them do as they please.

If you want to find the culprit for ridiculous medication prices in the US, you don't need to look at the rest of the World... the US has a broken healthcare system which lets corporation prey off the sick, all enabled by a government deeply influenced by lobby money.
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Aesma
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:30 pm

Last time I checked TV ads are a cost not a revenue item. If seeing an ad for a drug makes you go to the doctor and demand that drug, you're part of the problem. But I agree such ads are better avoided. In France we only have ads for over the counter medicine. Aspirine is not over the counter, by the way.

Also, when people go see the doctor for no good reason, it doesn't cost too much to the system as a visit is 25€.
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cjg225
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:07 pm

seb146 wrote:
We keep hearing from the right how competition for anything is good because it drives prices down. The fact is, the opposite happens. And all of this fretting over profits for health care is coming from the party of "every life is sacred."

One of the most expensive (and effective) drugs in the US had its price slashed within days of the first competing drug entering the market just this past year.

Competition is very real in the pharma industry. Billion-dollar decisions are made with what the competition is expected to do in mind.

People forget that pharma is an industry, just like any other. People feel that it should be treated differently because of what it produces. "Oh, how can they profit off peoples' sicknesses?" Should all food companies be held to a stricter standard for pricing? I mean, food is waaaaay more fundamental to life than pharmaceuticals are. Maybe food companies shouldn't be able to make a particular level of profit.
Aesma wrote:
Also, when people go see the doctor for no good reason, it doesn't cost too much to the system as a visit is 25€.

Don't confuse "cost to the system" with "reimbursement amounts."
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Tugger
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:15 pm

Aesma wrote:
Also, when people go see the doctor for no good reason, it doesn't cost too much to the system as a visit is 25€.

Actually I will challenge this.

You said "no good reason and I do not think at all that any visit only costs the system 25€/$25, the cost is far more. Maybe one of the doctors on our board could chime in on this but I would bet that the cost is at least double maybe more,the doctors time, training, support staff, systems to manage it, facilities and medicines and items needed on hand, all cost. And then there is the opportunity cost of the time being used for something unneeded versus something productive.

Still preventive healthcare is far more cost effective that after the fact or "emergency room" care so that is also important. I would think the price simply comes from being enough to cover part of the real cost but not dissuade someone from visiting. There should still be a reason to visit.

Tugg
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Aesma
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:22 pm

It's still nowhere near US prices.

As for food, it has taken less and less of our income, and nowadays even people with nothing, living on the street, don't die from starvation.

On the other hand healthcare is more and more expensive.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:28 pm

Tugger wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Also, when people go see the doctor for no good reason, it doesn't cost too much to the system as a visit is 25€.

Actually I will challenge this.

You said "no good reason and I do not think at all that any visit only costs the system 25€/$25, the cost is far more. Maybe one of the doctors on our board could chime in on this but I would bet that the cost is at least double maybe more,the doctors time, training, support staff, systems to manage it, facilities and medicines and items needed on hand, all cost. And then there is the opportunity cost of the time being used for something unneeded versus something productive.

Still preventive healthcare is far more cost effective that after the fact or "emergency room" care so that is also important. I would think the price simply comes from being enough to cover part of the real cost but not dissuade someone from visiting. There should still be a reason to visit.

Tugg


Well when I go see my local doctor (5 houses down) and pay 25€ it has to cover everything, there is no other revenue stream. Well in fact since a few years there is, if a doctor does certain things (like pushing for preventative measures, helping patients changing their habits, etc.) they can earn a few thousands euros more per year, but aside from that, it's all about the money coming directly from the patients. Hospitals and even private clinics get money from the public coffers, but not family doctors.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
seb146
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:21 am

cjg225 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We keep hearing from the right how competition for anything is good because it drives prices down. The fact is, the opposite happens. And all of this fretting over profits for health care is coming from the party of "every life is sacred."

One of the most expensive (and effective) drugs in the US had its price slashed within days of the first competing drug entering the market just this past year.

Competition is very real in the pharma industry. Billion-dollar decisions are made with what the competition is expected to do in mind.

People forget that pharma is an industry, just like any other. People feel that it should be treated differently because of what it produces. "Oh, how can they profit off peoples' sicknesses?" Should all food companies be held to a stricter standard for pricing? I mean, food is waaaaay more fundamental to life than pharmaceuticals are. Maybe food companies shouldn't be able to make a particular level of profit.


Food very different than pharmaceuticals. A person can grow their own vegetables and comparison shop. They go into the market knowing how much money they have and how much they can spend. Medical? Who knows.

The Republican replacement for ACA? If you get sick, die quickly!
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Francoflier
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:43 am

cjg225 wrote:
Should all food companies be held to a stricter standard for pricing?


There is, always has been and always will be enormous competition in the food market.

Anyone can market a frozen pizza if they follow a few rules governing safe food processing. It doesn't have to go through extensive ans expensive scientific and peer reviewed testing.
Pharma companies demand exclusive access to the market to guarantee return on their investment. The government tends to grant that access. The problem is that they then proceed to take advantage of that exclusivity to make very high profits off the needs of sick people, regardless of whether these have the means to afford it or not.

So, do we want, as a society, find a way to ensure that we get a right balance between the need for these companies to recover the heavy R&D investment and be sustainable and at the same time ensure that everybody has access to basic healthcare?

Because if we don't, what are the options?
1/ We, as the Republicans want to do, continue to help these companies make massive profits by granting them exclusive rights to market (monopolies), but not controlling their margins and thus not guaranteeing that everyone can access these medications and just let them die?
2/ We make it cheaper to get drugs to the market, and let anybody sell drugs with no guarantee of their effectiveness or potential dangerous side-effects?
3/ We let free global competition ensure that there are companies manufacturing and selling the same drugs to create a free market but by doing so remove the means and incentive to create new drugs as it would be too expensive to be viable since the competition could just copy the formula?
4/ ??

As with everything, the answer lies in a compromise.
Letting every Martin Shkreli of this World get rich is not that compromise...
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BMI727
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:12 am

Tugger wrote:
So I guess "Only Nixon could go to China" will go for Trump, he has offered up what conservatives have fought for years: Price negotiation and competition for pharmaceuticals.

Of course he has. Trump is not a conservative.

Hillis wrote:
Won't happen. I don't believe a thing that comes out of the man's mouth. He's just yanking our chains.

You seem to have no trouble believing him when he says he will do something you disagree with? If you don't believe a thing that comes out of his mouth then all of the uproar about Muslim registries and such is pointless.

ltbewr wrote:
Ban most consumer advertising and marketing to doctors.

Exactly whose rights are violated by advertising by private pharmaceutical companies?

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
most of the research is actually funded by the taxpayer since surprise surprise big Pharc biggest customer is our government health care system.

Well that's the part that has to change. Get the government out of healthcare.

Aesma wrote:
What if a drug has no competitor ?

Then congratulations, you're the smartest guy around and you've earned yourself a monopoly for the duration of your patent. Go get rich and don't feel bad about it.

bhill wrote:
We are being SCREWED pure and simple.....and when Pharma has the balls to flip the Congressional Panels the bird under oath??!!!

The the government should stop buying everyone's healthcare. Let the government stop buying everything and if you think something is a poor value then don't buy it.

seb146 wrote:
We keep hearing from the right how competition for anything is good because it drives prices down. The fact is, the opposite happens. And all of this fretting over profits for health care is coming from the party of "every life is sacred."

There's nothing hypocritical about it at all if you care about defending everyone's rights. Equal protection under the law and all that.

Francoflier wrote:
1/ We, as the Republicans want to do, continue to help these companies make massive profits by granting them exclusive rights to market (monopolies), but not controlling their margins and thus not guaranteeing that everyone can access these medications and just let them die?

Yes. What do you believe makes you so special that you should be allowed to violate the property rights of others?

Francoflier wrote:
As with everything, the answer lies in a compromise.
Letting every Martin Shkreli of this World get rich is not that compromise...

There should be no compromise when it comes to people's rights. Why should you be allowed to steal someone's property? Even the fact that patents run out after a time comes dangerously close to the sort of compromise that abridges inventors' property rights.
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Francoflier
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:58 am

BMI727 wrote:
Yes. What do you believe makes you so special that you should be allowed to violate the property rights of others?


Property rights? Who's talking about property rights violation?

That intellectual property is granted and enforced by the Government... which is us (or at least is supposed to work for us). Regulations are what give them any value.
And I never said I was against stripping pharma companies of their patents and the rights to benefit from them.
You seem to only think in extremes... There is a vast difference between giving them a monopoly and letting them take full advantage of it at the expense of some of your citizens and ordering them to give medicine for free.
I was pointing out the double standard that some seem to be extremely in favor of government meddling as long as it favors some (mostly themselves, funny enough), but staunchly against when it favors others.

If the government artificially creates value in these drugs by granting exclusivity, why couldn't it control the amount of that value?
Otherwise it could just let the companies fend for themselves and allow Indian manufacturers to flood the market with cheaper generic versions of the same drugs.

But there is no need for that as there is more than enough room for them to make a profit AND not charge extortionate prices for their products. It works in other countries... It's just that Americans have been fooled to believe that they need to pay $500 for a pill because that's what it's worth.
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Aesma
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:02 pm

BMI727 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
What if a drug has no competitor ?

Then congratulations, you're the smartest guy around and you've earned yourself a monopoly for the duration of your patent. Go get rich and don't feel bad about it.


Follow your logic to the end. Why have (government enforced) patents, are they part of the free market ?

- if yes, then why do they expire after 20 years, and not 50 or 1000 ?
- if no, then let's forget about patents and see what happens.
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seb146
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:28 pm

BMI727 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We keep hearing from the right how competition for anything is good because it drives prices down. The fact is, the opposite happens. And all of this fretting over profits for health care is coming from the party of "every life is sacred."

There's nothing hypocritical about it at all if you care about defending everyone's rights. Equal protection under the law and all that.


Your statement makes no sense. You say "equal protection" but every one of your posts is "I got mine, screw everyone else" which is the basic way of thinking of the Republican party. I stand by my statement that the party of Jesus loves life as long as that life can afford it.
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Tugger
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:37 pm

BMI727 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
What if a drug has no competitor ?

Then congratulations, you're the smartest guy around and you've earned yourself a monopoly for the duration of your patent. Go get rich and don't feel bad about it.
[...]
Francoflier wrote:
1/ We, as the Republicans want to do, continue to help these companies make massive profits by granting them exclusive rights to market (monopolies), but not controlling their margins and thus not guaranteeing that everyone can access these medications and just let them die?

Yes. What do you believe makes you so special that you should be allowed to violate the property rights of others?

[/quote]

BMI, I'll jump it on this as well and laugh at your silly reasoning here.....
So you support the government involvement in creating an artificial barrier to competition via patents? Is that right?

You support government intervention and regulation. Right?

There are many that believe that patents are one of the most insidious and harmful attacks on free market principles.

Tugg
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cjg225
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:48 pm

seb146 wrote:
Food very different than pharmaceuticals. A person can grow their own vegetables and comparison shop. They go into the market knowing how much money they have and how much they can spend. Medical? Who knows.

And yet there are still many, many people who can't afford food and go hungry every day. So, again, why isn't there similar uproar for food companies to provide food at prices every person can afford or give food for free? Food is more fundamental than pharmaceuticals are to life.

The fact of the matter is that pharma companies go through substantial efforts to provide a plethora of drugs at low cost or give them away for free. I don't see them getting any credit for that.

This brings me to another point... The constant harping about pharma companies' greed leads me to believe that very, very few people have even the slightest understanding of the health care community. I doubt most people realize how many middlemen are between or tangential to the path between pharmaceutical manufacturers and the individual consumer. Wholesalers, Pharmacy Benefits Managers (PBMs), insurance companies, hospitals, pharmacies, and others have incredible influence on the prices, and all of them are taking their shares of the profits. Look at wholesalers, for example. The largest 3 wholesalers in the US each, individually, are bigger than the two largest US pharmaceutical manufacturers COMBINED. The largest of the Big 3 wholesalers is bigger than the top 4 US pharma combined combined. The wholesalers alone exercise enormous power over the manufacturers. Wholesalers tend to have lower margins than the pharma manufacturers largely (but not entirely, of course) because they don't have the overhead and R&D expenditures of manufacturers. Their size, though, and influence in the health care market give them an incredible amount of power over the manufacturers. I don't see anyone complaining about them even though they're deciding what drugs to carry and signing deals that effectively limit access with parties farther along the chain.

And I certainly I don't see anyone ever talking about PBMs, probably because by and large no one has any idea what they are or what role they play in pharmaceutical pricing. I can assure you... it's a lot. PBMs probably have the most to do with end-of-line pricing than any other entity in the pharmaceutical end-to-end process.

Show of hands, how many people here have worked in any manner in the very, very broad healthcare industry?
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BMI727
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:15 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Property rights? Who's talking about property rights violation?

Limiting the rights of pharmaceutical companies to price their products how they wish, placing excessive taxes on profits that are deemed too high, limiting intellectual property rights, etc. all violate the property rights of the companies' shareholders.

Francoflier wrote:
That intellectual property is granted and enforced by the Government...

Not granted, only protected and enforced. No government ever gives anyone any rights.

Francoflier wrote:
You seem to only think in extremes...

Protection of rights must be extreme. You can't violate someone's rights a little bit and say it's okay. It's wrong to make determinations about how others value their rights.

Francoflier wrote:
If the government artificially creates value in these drugs by granting exclusivity, why couldn't it control the amount of that value?

The government does not create value, the value is held in the knowledge and ability to make the medicine not in regulations.

Francoflier wrote:
It's just that Americans have been fooled to believe that they need to pay $500 for a pill because that's what it's worth.

The problem is that nobody cares how much it costs because the government pays it. Get the government out and you'll go a long way towards fixing it. The same dynamic messed up housing prices and college tuition.

Aesma wrote:
Follow your logic to the end. Why have (government enforced) patents, are they part of the free market ?

The government protects intellectual property for the same reason that police investigate if your car is stolen.

Aesma wrote:
- if no, then let's forget about patents and see what happens.

I'll tell you what will happen. Either 1) The profitability of pharmaceutical research no longer justifies the investment and advancement slows to nearly nothing or 2) Everything about medical research and development becomes proprietary and is held closely. Development will slow because virtually no information is shared.

seb146 wrote:
You say "equal protection" but every one of your posts is "I got mine, screw everyone else" which is the basic way of thinking of the Republican party.

Do you believe that the unborn should be protected just as much as shareholders of pharmaceutical companies? Really you're just providing another example of the fundamental liberal hypocrisy.

seb146 wrote:
I stand by my statement that the party of Jesus loves life as long as that life can afford it.

You should argue against points people are actually making.

Tugger wrote:
You support government intervention and regulation. Right?

It protects the rights of citizens, which is why we have the government after all. Just like how the government should intervene and investigate when someone is murdered.
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seb146
Posts: 15664
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:19 am

cjg225 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Food very different than pharmaceuticals. A person can grow their own vegetables and comparison shop. They go into the market knowing how much money they have and how much they can spend. Medical? Who knows.

And yet there are still many, many people who can't afford food and go hungry every day. So, again, why isn't there similar uproar for food companies to provide food at prices every person can afford or give food for free? Food is more fundamental than pharmaceuticals are to life.

The fact of the matter is that pharma companies go through substantial efforts to provide a plethora of drugs at low cost or give them away for free. I don't see them getting any credit for that.

This brings me to another point... The constant harping about pharma companies' greed leads me to believe that very, very few people have even the slightest understanding of the health care community. I doubt most people realize how many middlemen are between or tangential to the path between pharmaceutical manufacturers and the individual consumer. Wholesalers, Pharmacy Benefits Managers (PBMs), insurance companies, hospitals, pharmacies, and others have incredible influence on the prices, and all of them are taking their shares of the profits. Look at wholesalers, for example. The largest 3 wholesalers in the US each, individually, are bigger than the two largest US pharmaceutical manufacturers COMBINED. The largest of the Big 3 wholesalers is bigger than the top 4 US pharma combined combined. The wholesalers alone exercise enormous power over the manufacturers. Wholesalers tend to have lower margins than the pharma manufacturers largely (but not entirely, of course) because they don't have the overhead and R&D expenditures of manufacturers. Their size, though, and influence in the health care market give them an incredible amount of power over the manufacturers. I don't see anyone complaining about them even though they're deciding what drugs to carry and signing deals that effectively limit access with parties farther along the chain.

And I certainly I don't see anyone ever talking about PBMs, probably because by and large no one has any idea what they are or what role they play in pharmaceutical pricing. I can assure you... it's a lot. PBMs probably have the most to do with end-of-line pricing than any other entity in the pharmaceutical end-to-end process.

Show of hands, how many people here have worked in any manner in the very, very broad healthcare industry?


There are a lot of people trying to get food companies to lower prices for the poor.

There are a lot of "middlemen" in the food industry, too. Fertilizer, processing, trucking, grocers, advertising, and peripheral companies.
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seb146
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:22 am

BMI727 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
You say "equal protection" but every one of your posts is "I got mine, screw everyone else" which is the basic way of thinking of the Republican party.

Do you believe that the unborn should be protected just as much as shareholders of pharmaceutical companies? Really you're just providing another example of the fundamental liberal hypocrisy.

seb146 wrote:
I stand by my statement that the party of Jesus loves life as long as that life can afford it.

You should argue against points people are actually making.


The unborn is completely different than human adults. Especially human adults who do everything in their power to protect the unborn but damn and hate the born.

Speaking of hypocrisy, Republicans keep screaming how every life is sacred and precious. Unless they are poor. Because Jesus and The Bible.
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prebennorholm
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:02 pm

I think that in this case Trump really has a good point. Not because I am an expert in this field, or even have any specific knowledge. But I will share some observations:

Here in my country Denmark we have at least three very large pharmaceutical industries which all are heavily dependent on export to the US market. They have during the later years literally been printing money, and their stock market value has gone through the roof - benefitting my retirement savings.

Yes, they do spend a lot of money on R&D. But nothing like what they spend on shareholders like me.

It took only one twitt from Trump to shave 3 or 4 billion dollars off the stock value of only the biggest of those three companies. And to shave a few thousand dollars off my retirement savings. This is likely because the stock market dealers know something which I don't know.

These observations tell me that the USA has substantial potential savings on drugs imports as low hanging fruits. And that Trump in this case is on the right track.

And PS: Please don't worry for my retirement in case Trump gets it his way. I will do just fine without benefitting from vastly overpriced drugs export to the USA. I will have a comfortable retirement on investments "only" in companies which deliver true value for money.
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Pyrex
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Re: Trump wants bidding and price competition for pharmaceuticals

Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:16 pm

The fix for the problem of drug costs in the U.S. is actually remarkably simple - just create a law that states that Medicare / Medicaid will not pay more for a specific drug than the average of the prices paid in a set of ~10 developed countries (UK, Germany, Norway, etc.), giving drug companies a three-year phase-in period (as I assume many of the contracts with foreign governments are multi-year). Then just sit back and relax - no need for the U.S. government to actually get involved in the nitty-gritty of negotiating individual drug prices. Sure, prices will rise in those other markets, and some people in smaller countries might go untreated / die of curable diseases as drug companies opt to pull out of those markets instead of accepting a lowball offer that will screw up their averages, but that is a price U.S. citizens should be willing to take - time for the U.S to stop subsidizing medical research for the rest of the developed world.
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