Muslim man lynched in India by Hindu extremists

BawliBooch · Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:47 am

5 members of a Muslim family were lynched by Hindu terrorists in Alwar, Rajasthan around 50 miles from the national capital Delhi. One of the men attacked died of his wounds. This is the 6th such incident in past 2 months alone.

Since 2014, groups of "Gau Raksha Samitis" (Cow protection groups) affiliated to the fascist Hindu organisation the RSS have been attacking Muslims under the cover of allegedly eating/serving or transporting cows. Buffalo meat in India is legal in most states but that hasnt stopped extremist Hindu Terror Groups from attacking minorities.

Video to news report on incident:
Muslim man killed by cow vigilantes in Rajasthan's Alwar

Apart from minority Muslims, Christians who make up around 6% of India's population have also found themselves under attack from RSS terrorists since their faction came to power in India in 2014.
Christians in India increasingly under attack, study shows.

BawliBooch · Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:44 am

Yogi Adityanath’s Hindu Yuva Vahini disrupts church meet alleging forced religious conversions

The UP Police stopped a prayer meeting at a church in Maharajgang after members of Chief Minister Adityanath’s Hindu Yuva Vahini alleged forced religious conversions, ANI reported on Saturday. They said foreign nationals were forcing local residents to convert to Christianity under the ruse of a prayer meeting, which had more than 150 people, including 11 United States nationals, in attendance.

The group’s members filed a complaint against the Dathauli church pastor, Yohannan Adam, who has denied the charge, Hindustan Times reported. “The charges are absolutely baseless. The people were attending a prayer meeting voluntarily. We prayed. Nothing else was done,” Adam said. He told ANI that police officers had climbed up on the alter and even taken their Bible. “One of our foreign friends had brought his friends to see the church,” he said.

The right-wing group has accused Christian missionaries in the region of forcibly converting locals to their faith. “The presence of US nationals indicates that innocent and illiterate Hindus were being converted by the missionaries, who lured them with money to change their religion,” said Krishna Nandan, a Hindu Yuva Vahini leader.

Earlier this year, the group had accused the Full Gospel Church in Gorakhpur of similar charges and attacked it. Several Hindu organisations have conducted ghar wapsi (homecoming) ceremonies for people who have allegedly been converted.

BawliBooch · Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:48 am

A familiar pattern: Months before elections are due in the state of Orissa, Hindu-Muslim riots being formented by organisations affiliated to the RSS.
Curfew imposed in Odisha town after communal clashes

Authorities on Friday imposed curfew in Odisha’s coastal town of Bhadrak as communal tensions flared over alleged derogatory comments about Ram and Sita on Facebook. Mobs set ablaze shops and attacked police vehicles a day after prohibitory orders were imposed in the town on Thursday.

DocLightning · Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:36 am

I'm always amused at Americans of Christian (or sometimes Jewish) extraction trying to take up Hinduism because it preaches a fancy cosmology and is not related to Christianity and preaches oneness and togetherness. Christianity superficially preaches similar concepts of unity, peace, love, and nonjudgmentalism.

But within the Abrahamic religions and Hinduism alike are violent teachings of self-supremacy and intolerance. We don't think of Hinduism as a religion prone to violent fundamentalism but it is. Massive, organized religions generally can be twisted into violence.

CanadaFair · Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 am

All known popular religions seem to come out of the East, why is that?

dtw2hyd · Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:45 pm

DocLightning wrote:
I'm always amused at Americans of Christian (or sometimes Jewish) extraction trying to take up Hinduism because it preaches a fancy cosmology and is not related to Christianity and preaches oneness and togetherness. Christianity superficially preaches similar concepts of unity, peace, love, and nonjudgmentalism.

Some of the major donors of Metro Detroit area Hindu temples are Caucasian Christians(not converts), because they are either friends of temple founders or found peace in visiting temple. Some are more regulars than me. So Hindu religious troll army tries to prove every one else is bad, that is not going to change my perception.

DocLightning wrote:
But within the Abrahamic religions and Hinduism alike are violent teachings of self-supremacy and intolerance. We don't think of Hinduism as a religion prone to violent fundamentalism but it is. Massive, organized religions generally can be twisted into violence.

No religion is exempt from radical element. It is up to the majority within the religion to put it down. The convergence of political, religious and organized internet trolls making it more difficult.

I believe there are one million religious internet trolls in India, 3/4th are in for $1 a post/tweet, not for religious believes. Leaves 250,000 religious internet trolls out of 1.2 Billion people.

BawliBooch · Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:41 am

DocLightning wrote:
But within the Abrahamic religions and Hinduism alike are violent teachings of self-supremacy and intolerance. We don't think of Hinduism as a religion prone to violent fundamentalism but it is. Massive, organized religions generally can be twisted into violence.

Hinduism does not preach intolerance - quite the opposite actually. The problem is some RW groups have taken it upon themselves to reinvent Hinduism to (in their own words) take on the challenge of Christianity & Islam. They base their ideology of Hindutva (Political Hindu) on the depraved writings of a British stooge called Savarkar who wrote a book these nutjobs consider their bible where he argues that just like Islam & Christianity draw strength from Vatican/Mecca (do they), Hindu's too must unite under a central "church" - presumably based in Nagpur.

These people don't represent us just like the ISIS doesn't represent Islam. If anything, the RSS and their terror activities bring disrepute to Hinduism in exactly the same way as ISIS/al Qaeda did to Islam.

Hinduism is not a religion. Its a way of life. One can be a Christian Hindu or a Muslim Hindu or Brahmin Hindu. Hinduism teaches us balance, consensus and tolerance. It certainly doesn't teach us to blow up buildings or lynch/rape minorities. Sadly, the activities of the RSS terrorists are now increasingly bringing disrepute to our way of life.

dtw2hyd wrote:
No religion is exempt from radical element. It is up to the majority within the religion to put it down. The convergence of political, religious and organized internet trolls making it more difficult.

Well said! It is our duty to put down the radical element within our religion.

johns624 · Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:37 pm

DocLightning wrote:
I'm always amused at Americans of Christian (or sometimes Jewish) extraction trying to take up Hinduism because it preaches a fancy cosmology and is not related to Christianity and preaches oneness and togetherness.

They equate all Hindus with Gandhi.

9w748capt · Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:51 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
But within the Abrahamic religions and Hinduism alike are violent teachings of self-supremacy and intolerance. We don't think of Hinduism as a religion prone to violent fundamentalism but it is. Massive, organized religions generally can be twisted into violence.

Hinduism does not preach intolerance - quite the opposite actually. The problem is some RW groups have taken it upon themselves to reinvent Hinduism to (in their own words) take on the challenge of Christianity & Islam. They base their ideology of Hindutva (Political Hindu) on the depraved writings of a British stooge called Savarkar who wrote a book these nutjobs consider their bible where he argues that just like Islam & Christianity draw strength from Vatican/Mecca (do they), Hindu's too must unite under a central "church" - presumably based in Nagpur.

These people don't represent us just like the ISIS doesn't represent Islam. If anything, the RSS and their terror activities bring disrepute to Hinduism in exactly the same way as ISIS/al Qaeda did to Islam.

Hinduism is not a religion. Its a way of life. One can be a Christian Hindu or a Muslim Hindu or Brahmin Hindu. Hinduism teaches us balance, consensus and tolerance. It certainly doesn't teach us to blow up buildings or lynch/rape minorities. Sadly, the activities of the RSS terrorists are now increasingly bringing disrepute to our way of life.

Couldn't say it better myself. I didn't know that any of the Hindu traditions/texts teach intolerance or self-supremacy. Sounds like some Reza Aslan-style nonsense. As you said, very important to distinguish political Hindutva from Hinduism.

BarfBag · Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:37 pm

It's important to understand why Hindutva exists. It exists because of monstrosities like this:
Gyanvapi Mosque built upon Kashi Viswanath

Mathura Keshav Deo Temple with Idgah Mosque dominating it

Remnants of the temple under Babri Mosque

Hindutva wasn't created in a political vacuum. It exists because Nehruvian 'secularism' depends on "lets pretend the horrific past of Islamic rule never happened, and all hug and be friends, without making amends for the ugly mistakes that are still blatantly visible". To do this involves portraying everyone from Akbar to Aurangzeb as a bunch of cuddly lovable folks.

In reality, Timur killed close to quarter of a million Delhi locals, a massacre the city took a century to recover from.
Babur was a savage iconoclast who knocked down the main Ayodhya temple and built a mosque upon it
For all the western tourists wondering 'gee, these Qutb Minar parts look a lot like that Hindu temple', yeah that's because it's built out the remnants of a demolished temple.
Akbar - often held as the exception - was responsible for the Massacre of Chittor. Rajputs will laugh at anyone who calls Akbar a good guy.
Jahangir, Shah Jahan, Aurangzeb - all tyrants from daddy to son, with the last being the zenith of craziness, right off from his treatment of Dara Shikoh.
And Mathura, Kashi, and elsewhere... WTF is a mosque doing right next to, or on top of, a temple ? It didn't happen by accident. There's no church, gurudwara or jain temple nearby. Just a mosque. How many Hindu temples/churches/synagogues are built next to the Kaaba in Mecca ? Oh wait, how many within 1000km of it ?

Yeah no, that isn't happening. No other religion countenances such mockery of some of the most sacred places of its faith. Nehru was idealistic, but a fool who doesn't realize that just because he ruled in a political vacuum in the 1950s doesn't mean he can make the country pretend the ugly scars of hundreds of years of invasion suddenly went away.

And no, this isn't a Hindu specific thing. Go to Gurudwara Sisganj and you'll see that the Sikhs are even less forgiving about this past, and even more vehement about enduring it's never forgotten. Aurangzeb had their next to last guru beheaded in Chandni Chowk. After having his disciples sawn in half and boiled alive respectively, in front of him. And Jahangir had Guru Arjan Dev before that executed. the Sikhs remember all this too. They don't get much regard simply because they're not small in number. But if the number of Sikhs and Hindus were reversed, you can bet there'd be a 'Sikhitva' movement instead.

In Somnath, the right thing was done, thanks to Sardar Patel - the mosque was moved away and the grand temple rebuilt for what - the 8th time ? Unfortunately, what should have been done the same way in at least Ayodhya, Kashi and Mathura, never was.

Now, one may not agree with or like Hindutva. But the fact is that as a political movement it's strong enough now. It runs the country and more than half the states. 'Secularism' was Nehru's admission that he didn't have the balls to fix all these issues, and in fact the only place where a fix was made - Somnath - was by Patel.

'Secularism' - a stupid word that implies the state does not interfere, but instead does the opposite and openly supports 'minorities' - is a remnant of a time when India was recently created - again thanks to Patel and VP Menon, who created a political unification out of this swiss cheese entity by convincing 625 princely states to become one country. 'Secularism' wasn't a permanent solution but a band aid, because these fixes couldn't be done without risking the destruction of political unity during the partition.

And why shouldn't anything be done ? Why does secularism depend upon Hindus not doing anything ? Why does the Muslim want to say 'yes I know that mosque is built upon your temple but don't you dare touch it'. Why should that be respected if our concern is not ? No Leftist ever answers that.

Hindutva exists because it has been 50+ years and India is now strongly politically and economically united, and Hindus still have not forgotten the massacres of the past. Look at the map. The left of India is Islamic. The right is also Islamic. India itself is 80% Hindu. A LOT of people died to keep it that way. But their sacred symbols were damaged or destroyed in the process, and Hindutva is nothing more than the movement to set it right. And it's going to get done, taking apart Nehruvian 'secularism' in the process.

The problem with Leftist characterizations of Hindutva is that it portrays it as a bunch of random crazies coming out of nowhere and hurting Muslims for no reason. It's nothing like that. There's a long sordid back story that no Leftist ever wants to acknowledge. That truth would be VERY inconvenient.

JJJ · Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:52 pm

BarfBag wrote:
WTF is a mosque doing right next to, or on top of, a temple ? It didn't happen by accident. There's no church, gurudwara or jain temple nearby. Just a mosque. How many Hindu temples/churches/synagogues are built next to the Kaaba in Mecca ? Oh wait, how many within 1000km of it ?

Yeah no, that isn't happening. No other religion countenances such mockery of some of the most sacred places of its faith.

Sorry but that happens everywhere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque%E2 ... C3%B3rdoba
Cathedral built inside a former Mosque

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia
Old Basilica turned into a mosque (then turned into a museum, and now apparently back into a mosque again).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of ... essaloniki)
Mosque turned into a church.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Cholula
Church built on top of an Aztec pyramid.

And so on. Religion and politics have always gone hand in hand. Whoever wins gets to keep the nice places.

BawliBooch · Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:02 pm

Aaaah! More Whataboutery from BarfBag!

So Muslim invader's came to India and committed some horrific abuses 5 centuries ago as they invaded. That act of 5 centuries ago is somehow justification for killing Muslim men and raping their women in 2017! Bravo @BarfBag! You have exceeded yourself!

Hindu kings of Vijayanagar also raped and pillaged and destroyed temples when they invaded neighbouring Hindu kingdoms. BarfBag should read up on the History of invasion of Kalinga for example. Another Hindu King Shivaji and his descendants regularly pillaged neighbouring princely states - Surat was an annual affair.

And yet BarfBag and his ideological brethren with their Khaki knickers and White shirts choose to look at these medieval conquests rather selectively. Its how they were taught in the RSS shakhas.

BarfBag doesnt speak for Hindu's - He speaks for the fascist RSS that has hijacked the Hindu religion much like the ISIS has hijacked Islam.

BawliBooch · Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:13 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Couldn't say it better myself. I didn't know that any of the Hindu traditions/texts teach intolerance or self-supremacy. Sounds like some Reza Aslan-style nonsense.

Absolutely. The fascist RSS derives much of its ideology from the works of Vinayak Savarkar - a cowardly catamite who wrote letters of apology to the British and later spied for the British intelligence. It was Savarkar who coined the term Hindutva - which means Political Hinduism. The founder of the RSS - another slimy character called Hegdewar based his theories off Savarkar's ideology. Inspired by the rise of the Fascists in Italy, he fashioned the RSS on similar lines. Note the similarity in their uniform and salute!

Nowhere does Hindu Religion preach intolerance or supremacist ideology! That is interpretation of some sick, depraved individuals and their brainwashed followers like one on this board.

9w748capt wrote:
As you said, very important to distinguish political Hindutva from Hinduism.

Absolutely.

We cannot allow Hindu religion to be hijacked by these RSS terrorists. Its time the liberal Hindu spoke up.

Flighty · Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:25 pm

Religious extremists/fundamentalists all believe in the same thing: secular, fake-religious propaganda and death.

People who belong to actual religions -- as opposed to these cults -- despise them.

BarfBag · Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:29 pm

JJJ: And so on. Religion and politics have always gone hand in hand. Whoever wins gets to keep the nice places.

Maybe you didn't get the memo, but that's EXACTLY what the Hindutva movement is doing - the winner taking the spoils and eliminating the losers symbolisms . You got a problem with that ?

BarfBag · Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:37 pm

BawliBooch: Nowhere does Hinduism preach intolerance or supremacist ideology.

This I agree with you vehemently about . It's also Hinduisms greatest weakness, because both Islam and Christianity do exactly this:
'There is no God but Allah'
'Jesus is the only path' (or whatever)

Fundamentally Hinduism has no exclusionist creed. This puts it at a huge disadvantage when faced with an army who sees Hindus not as a warring opponent but whose faith and culture must be destroyed.

Hindutva will remain as long as iconoclastic Abrahamic religions exist . It's a necessary defensive structure needed for a religion that itself doesn't otherwise denigrate other faiths but espouses a 'separate but equal' view of the path to divinity .

As for the resident Marxist:

BarfBag · Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:16 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Hindu kings of Vijayanagar also raped and pillaged and destroyed temples when they invaded neighbouring Hindu kingdoms.

so that's what they teach you at Jihadi Naxal University! Which imminent historian was the author of the text ? Lemme guess. Romila Thapar ? Irfan Habib ? Or some white skinned imminent historian like Wendy Doniger and Michael Witzel ?

BawliBooch wrote:
BarfBag should read up on the History of invasion of Kalinga for example. Another Hindu King Shivaji and his descendants regularly pillaged neighbouring princely states - Surat was an annual affair..

Guess why the Marathas kept raiding Surat ? Oh, yes, because it was a prosperous trading town within the Maratha Empire from whom they needed supplies to destroy the Mughals. And who bought back the Gates of Somnath Temple back from Muhammad Shah Abdali in Lahore after those wars ? Yup, the Maratha king Mahadaji Shinde. Those gates today adorn the Ujjain Jyotirlinga temple.

Ask any Surati what fate they would have preferred - Marathas appropriating food and goods for war, or being ruled by Mughals. Go ahead. It's a democracy in India. You know what's going to happen - every Hindu's going to vote 'thank god we were within the Maratha Empire and not under the horrible Mughals' 8-)

And guess what happened after the Kalinga War ? Ashoka became a pacifist Buddhist who set about creating what was then the world's largest empire, and whose seal today adorns our flag. How many of the Mughals did that ? Zero. No one wants a reminder of their plunder on our national symbols. No coin, note or flag shows them.

I would *love* to have a competitive argument about relative acts of Hindu and Muslim atrocities in warfare. I'll win easily. The Muslims were that good at plunder. You know it too

JJJ · Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:34 pm

BarfBag wrote:
JJJ: And so on. Religion and politics have always gone hand in hand. Whoever wins gets to keep the nice places.

Maybe you didn't get the memo, but that's EXACTLY what the Hindutva movement is doing - the winner taking the spoils and eliminating the losers symbolisms . You got a problem with that ?

I'm far away enough to afford not to care.

Please call back when you get to the 20th century, nevermind the 21st.

ElPistolero · Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:40 pm

Great posts from BarfBag!

While poorly written, they provide insight into the petty vindictiveness of this apparently violence-condoning movement that's largely stayed below the radar of international audiences.

For those struggling with the poor writing, I present to you Hindutva according to BarfBag:

- BarfBag and his co-ideologues activists are not a "bunch of random crazies". They are motivated by past wrongs - to the extent that they are "hurting Muslims" today for a "reason", namely transgressions by Muslim leaders between 1200 and 300 years ago. Its a vindictive backward-looking ideology, more obsessed with righting past wrongs than building a better India for the future (replacing a mosque with a temple won't materially change anything in India). Presumably, BarfBag also believes that violence against certain Rajput clans is justified due to the support they afforded to the British during the 1857 mutiny. I imagine he's forever perplexed by the fact that Europeans today don't lynch every German (or Roman) they can get their hands on.

- The fact that an old mosque stands in the place of an older temple is offensive to BarfBag and his Hindutva buddies. Why? Who knows. Buildings, including Hindu temples, get torn down and replaced all the time. Only temples replaced by mosques are worthy of conservation. If it's replaced by an apartment block, well, whatever.

- BarfBag's Hindutva appears to be all about being offended and demanding that it's concerns, however petty, be addressed. If they aren't, violence is apparently justified. Evidently, economic gain also justifies violence, as does the protection of certain animals. You read that right; according to BarfBag and his ilk, economic gain / certain animals > human lives. Including those of Hindus in Surat.

- Talking about destroying other religions' symbols, BarfBag and his co-ideologues seem blissfully unaware of the systematic destruction of Buddhism in its own birthplace by Hindus. Yep, India, the birthplace of Buddhism, now has less Buddhists than Vietnam. The destruction was so systematic that Ashoka's legacy was virtually erased from Indian history until a white Brit found it in the 19th century. Nowadays, despite BarfBag's predecessors/intellectual ancestors efforts, he's an acknowledged Indian great. But why stop there. Statues of India's most famous Buddhist, the author of the Indian constitution, are routinely decorated with shoe garlands as a sign of disrespect. I suspect BarfBag and his ilk have a serious case of cognitive dissonance.

- Carrying on with the theme of cognitive dissonance, BarfBag is apparently unaware that the Red Fort, featured prominently on the new Rs 500 note, was built by the Mughals. I can understand the conflict in his head; the Indian PM addresses India from the Red Fort on Independence Day every year. If the Red Fort (or Taj Mahal, for that matter) are not national symbols of India, what are they? Let me guess - the Taj Mahal was actually a Hindu temple

- BarfBag has finally answered a question that has vexed me for many a year: why do IITs struggle to break the Top 100 (or 150 or 200) in the QS university rankings? Evidently because while they're excellent at developing their students' technical proficiency, they do a very poor job at developing them intellectually. (No, I didn't go to JNU; I went to two well-known schools that both rank more than 150 places above the best performing IIT).

I'm a Hindu but I don't subscribe to Hindutva. From my perspective, it's just another inferiority/victim complex -driven ideology that appeals to people who prefer to blame others for their own shortcomings. I do, however, subscribe to the notion that a society can be judged by the way it treats its minorities. I get the impression that BarfBag and his ilk would prefer a situation in which certain Indian citizens would feel safer as foreigners in other countries, than as citizens in their own country. Which is a sad reflection of our times (for those of us who have the intellectual capacity to process it).

N867DA · Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:47 pm

This is absolutely disgusting and no human being should condone or even try to justify abuse like this.

But I would like to see India stop funding Hajj pilgrimages, stop having special civil codes for Muslims, stop treating Muslim sensibilities as some special class, and stop the spread of Saudi ideology in India.

BawliBooch · Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:42 am

N867DA wrote:
This is absolutely disgusting and no human being should condone or even try to justify abuse like this.

But I would like to see India stop funding Hajj pilgrimages, stop having special civil codes for Muslims, stop treating Muslim sensibilities as some special class, and stop the spread of Saudi ideology in India.

The RSS is effectively in power in India today. What stops them from doing all this and more? Why not stop funding for Hajj pilgrimage? Because Haj Pilgrimage subsidy has always been a thinly veiled subsidy that keeps Air India afloat. Also actually stopping state subsidy for Haj would take away a stick to beat the Muslims come poll time. Stop the spread of Saudi ideology? Ofcourse! But Owaisi and his cohorts are on Dear Leader's team now. So fat chance of that happening. Same reason why the temple at Ayodhya will never be built. Because actually doing that would take away the one issue that the RSS has to ratchet bigotry against Muslims. They only remember the Ram Temple at Election Time.

BarfBag ofcourse glosses over these facts because it would be inconvenient to look at these. Its just more convenient to defend the lynching of Christians, Muslims and lower castes as part of the Hindutva project to defend the Savarna Übermenschen!

PS: BarfBag doesnt represent Indians. He doesnt even represent Hindus. His defense of RSS Terrorism makes every proud Hindu retch in disgust.

BawliBooch · Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:18 am

BarfBag wrote:
so that's what they teach you at Jihadi Naxal University! Which imminent historian was the author of the text ? Lemme guess. Romila Thapar ? Irfan Habib ? Or some white skinned imminent historian like Wendy Doniger and Michael Witzel ?

Hmm! Some of us choose to believe in educated historians rather than in WhatsApp forwards. Dear Leader's fans (or Modiya's as we call them) may have a different choice when it comes to reading history.

BarfBag wrote:
Ask any Surati what fate they would have preferred - Marathas appropriating food and goods for war, or being ruled by Mughals. Go ahead. It's a democracy in India. You know what's going to happen - every Hindu's going to vote 'thank god we were within the Maratha Empire and not under the horrible Mughals'

For one thing: Surat was a Mughal port. And your comment about Surati's preferring to be looted and pillaged every year is downright hilarious!

BarfBag wrote:
And guess what happened after the Kalinga War ? Ashoka became a pacifist Buddhist who set about creating what was then the world's largest empire, and whose seal today adorns our flag.

Kalinga was invaded more than once. I was referring to the Vijayanagar empire invasion of Kalinga which happened 13 centuries later. You know the time when Vaishnav's & Shaivite kingdoms were looting and pillaging each others temples. But that history the RSS will not look at. You know: inconvenient and all.

BarfBag wrote:
I would *love* to have a competitive argument about relative acts of Hindu and Muslim atrocities in warfare. I'll win easily. The Muslims were that good at plunder. You know it too

Aaah! Relativism! Was Ashoka hindu? Were the Vijayanagar King's Hindu? Or the Maratha bands who laid waste to vast areas every year?

Jainism was the majority religion in India just a millenia ago. How did so many Jain temples come to be replaced by Hindu temples? Peaceful transition eh? And who invited Babur to invade India? And Ghori? Who were the top generals in the Mughal court? Were they Muslim or Hindu? The troops who bought down the Ram Lalla temple centuries ago fought under the flag of a Muslim king, but were the soldiers Muslim or Rajput Hindu?

Aaah! Other bits of history that BarfBag will chose to gloss over. Because you know: incovenient when he has to justify the lynching of Muslims in 2017.

BawliBooch · Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:41 am

BarfBag wrote:
Babur was a savage iconoclast who knocked down the main Ayodhya temple and built a mosque upon it

Exactly the kind of alternative history that drives RSS fascism in India.

The Babri Mosque was built by the Delhi Sultanate 125 years before Babur was born! It was renovated and renamed by Babur's son Humayun when he captured Awadh.

While it is certain that the Mosque was built on top of a pre-existing place of worship, it is by no means certain that it was a Hindu temple. Rival claims include that it was built over what was once a Jain Temple - which was the dominant religion in India before Hinduism took over. Hundreds and thousands of Jain Temples were replaced by Hindu temples or mosques over the centuries.

Exactly why the RSS theories of "correcting historical injustice" is plain crazy: it will open a pandoras box that will split India into a hundred pieces.

dtw2hyd · Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:22 am

One of their favorite foreign think tank has a session about Dravidian Christianity in India

So much for saving or promoting Hinduism, the only Hindu country in the world and loyal friend of India for several decades is now China's close buddy. Great achievement and second gift to China, after PayTM.

9w748capt · Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:34 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
One of their favorite foreign think tank has a session about Dravidian Christianity in India

So much for saving or promoting Hinduism, the only Hindu country in the world and loyal friend of India for several decades is now China's close buddy. Great achievement and second gift to China, after PayTM.

What? Damn

9w748capt · Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:40 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Absolutely.

We cannot allow Hindu religion to be hijacked by these RSS terrorists. Its time the liberal Hindu spoke up.

LOL - I'm gonna stay out of this pissing contest between you and barfbag (or puking contest?) - seems like you guys live in India and so are much more aware of these issues. I'm only peripherally involved/aware, having met some HSS folks while growing up here in the USA (my grandfather was heavily involved in RSS activities so my mom was looking for a way to keep me out of trouble - LOL). It's one thing to have pride in your religion and heritage, even your country of origin - it's quite another to try to go about this while dancing around in a khaki skirt while waving around a stick. I'm not sure how many "shakhas" there are these days, but for awhile it seemed HSS was making inroads. Then I think people realized um I live in Amrika and want to do more than look like a cross-dresser.

unrave · Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:13 am

I wonder why the topic has been curiously sensationalised with a strong political intent. I remember frequent occurrences of religious violence as long as I have followed news. This narrative that somehow India turned from a utopia to a bastion of religious intolerance overnight with the change of government in 2014 is flawed and deeply disturbing, even for someone who has never voted for the BJP. But hey, par for the course for what passes off as journalism in India these days I guess.

About Muslim invaders destroying Hindu temples: There is a reason why some of the grandest of the ancient temples still functioning today are found in the south (TN especially) and that no ancient temple survives in Delhi. Muslim conquerors were ruthless in their iconoclasm to the extent that several rulers made it their life's mission to destroy institutions of other faiths. (Aurangzeb was the Taliban and ISIS of his time, evidenced not the least by his attempts to destroy the Giant Buddhas in Afghanistan, a job eventually completed by his spiritual successors four centuries later). This much is true, and it is extremely uncharitable to compare Muslim invaders with warring Hindu rulers.

As for the topic being discussed: The wheels of justice unfortunately grind very slowly in India.

golfradio · Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:43 pm

Oh no the ultra lefties in India are on it now. Cherry picking criminal incidents and weaponizing them for political mileage. The problem with these kinds of pieces are that they distort reality and stifle a dialogue between opposing ideologies by promoting fear. People are made to fear views and positions which are contrarian to their own. It's a bit like statistics. You can make them say whatever you want to say and technically you can't dispute them.

This piece would make you think communal clashes and religious intolerance in India is a new phenomenon since the BJP has come to power. On the contrary, looking at the history of clashes in India, they go back centuries into the past. These clashes are not just aligned along religious lines but pretty much on every demographic attribute; caste, language, economics, provincial and so on. In a country of 1.2 billion squashed together with a population density of 382 per sq km (really imagine that), clashes are frequent and frankly expected.

Since independence in 1947 in the 16 elections that have been conducted only twice has a right leaning prime minister been elected to power. So a total of less than 10 years in the last 70 years. But some of the worst documented riots and clashes () happened when the so called secular INC was in power.
So it's facetious when claims are made that right leaning parties in power somehow make the social fabric worse off. If it was true India should never have communal discord. After all the first right leaning prime minister was elected 51 years after independence.

So ignore hysteric threads by individuals, irrespective which side they sit on.

golfradio · Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:49 pm

unrave wrote:
I wonder why the topic has been curiously sensationalised with a strong political intent. I remember frequent occurrences of religious violence as long as I have followed news. This narrative that somehow India turned from a utopia to a bastion of religious intolerance overnight with the change of government in 2014 is flawed and deeply disturbing, even for someone who has never voted for the BJP. But hey, par for the course for what passes off as journalism in India these days I guess.

I missed reading your post until after mine. You already said what I wanted to. To be honest these days, journalistic integrity is a fading notion.

ElPistolero · Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:23 pm

golfradio wrote:
Oh no the ultra lefties in India are on it now. Cherry picking criminal incidents and weaponizing them for political mileage. The problem with these kinds of pieces are that they distort reality and stifle a dialogue between opposing ideologies by promoting fear. People are made to fear views and positions which are contrarian to their own. It's a bit like statistics. You can make them say whatever you want to say and technically you can't dispute them.

This piece would make you think communal clashes and religious intolerance in India is a new phenomenon since the BJP has come to power. On the contrary, looking at the history of clashes in India, they go back centuries into the past. These clashes are not just aligned along religious lines but pretty much on every demographic attribute; caste, language, economics, provincial and so on. In a country of 1.2 billion squashed together with a population density of 382 per sq km (really imagine that), clashes are frequent and frankly expected.

Since independence in 1947 in the 16 elections that have been conducted only twice has a right leaning prime minister been elected to power. So a total of less than 10 years in the last 70 years. But some of the worst documented riots and clashes () happened when the so called secular INC was in power.
So it's facetious when claims are made that right leaning parties in power somehow make the social fabric worse off. If it was true India should never have communal discord. After all the first right leaning prime minister was elected 51 years after independence.

So ignore hysteric threads by individuals, irrespective which side they sit on.

Arguing that's what happening is nothing new is akin to arguing that anti-immigrant sentiments in some segments of British and U.S. societies haven't increased post-Trump or -Brexit. The primary concern there (and here) is that some of the more unsavoury characters (like one poster here) have been emboldened and that there's a reluctance on the part of the "political movement" they belong to, to put them back in their boxes.

This 'piece' isn't just about some guy getting lynched; it's about a broader perception of persecution. Witness these bizarro meat bans and cow vigilantes. While these may have existed in various iterations in the past, there is a sense that they can act with relatively greater impunity now because of the perceived tacit support of their political 'movement'/party. As it happens, some parties are less inclined to tackle these types of folk.

This is the kind of atmosphere that entrenches divisions. Every incident magnifies it in the eyes of the minority. Hysterics or not, perceptions matter. Wouldn't take much to end the meat bans, or put the cow vigilantes behind bars, but that might cost votes. So here we are, with a bunch of snowflakes demanding that they be allowed to trample others' rights because they're easily offended by just about everything.

Worth pointing out too that Indian immigrants abroad seem curiously reluctant to hold India to the same standards as they do the countries they now live in. When an Indian gets killed in the U.S., there is an uproar about hate crimes. When Africans/Northeasterners/Muslims/other minorities get attacked in India...well, business as usual. 70 years after independence, I think the reluctance to hold India to the same moral standard as the west says a lot.

And yes, all parties bear responsibility for that. That said, there is always merit in holding the party in power (whichever it is) accountable for what's happening on it's watch. Can't just excuse everything because the other guy was just as bad.

golfradio · Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:18 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
The primary concern there (and here) is that some of the more unsavoury characters (like one poster here) have been emboldened and that there's a reluctance on the part of the "political movement" they belong to, to put them back in their boxes.

I would agree if there were marauding mobs across the length and breadth of the country, riots were breaking out everyday and the number and intensity of these incidents against minorities showed a marked spike. But they aren't. Without being apathetic, I would say it's situation normal.

ElPistolero wrote:
As it happens, some parties are less inclined to tackle these types of folk

Again I would agree if historically the trend proved it to be true. But they don't. Going back to my earlier assertion, the worst cases of communal riots and persecutions happened when the so called secular parties were in power. History shows that in India really no party has been able to contain these elements.

ElPistolero wrote:
Witness these bizarro meat bans and cow vigilantes.

And is that a new phenomenon? We are talking about the cow belt. The first recorded riot about cow slaughter was in 1893, 31 years before the RSS came into existence. Even the Brits with their callous methods of quelling riots, took 3 days to control the mobs. Cow vigilantism has and will continue to occur, no matter which party is in power.

And that's my beef (pun intended) with this kind of reporting. It simplifies a complex sociological issue. The reporting of these incidents reach a crescendo when there is a bogeyman. It provides for an easy narrative which suits the political agenda on hand.

BawliBooch · Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:40 am

golfradio wrote:
Oh no the ultra lefties in India are on it now. Cherry picking criminal incidents and weaponizing them for political mileage. The problem with these kinds of pieces are that they distort reality and stifle a dialogue between opposing ideologies by promoting fear.

CHERRY PICKING? So what is the media supposed to do? Ignore the incidents of state-backed vigilante's lynching Muslims, Dalits & Christians? Covering up these incidents and pretending nothing happened would not be distorting reality?

golfradio wrote:
But some of the worst documented riots and clashes () happened when the so called secular INC was in power.

The INC was in power. But the RSS was always one of the perpetrators of communal violence in every riot since 1946. You could question the INC for failure for containing the riots, but the RSS cannot be let off the hook for actively inciting and participating in communal violence.

unrave wrote:
This narrative that somehow India turned from a utopia to a bastion of religious intolerance overnight with the change of government in 2014 is flawed and deeply disturbing

golfradio wrote:
This piece would make you think communal clashes and religious intolerance in India is a new phenomenon since the BJP has come to power.

That is not the point at all. Communal violence is not a new phenomena. What is new is that for the first time, the perpetrators of violence against religious & ethnic minorities, ie the RSS has direct access to state power. THAT is a first. And THAT has encouraged the perpetrators of this violence to increase their activities, because they know the state is now on "their side".

golfradio wrote:
I would agree if there were marauding mobs across the length and breadth of the country, riots were breaking out everyday and the number and intensity of these incidents against minorities showed a marked spike. But they aren't. Without being apathetic, I would say it's situation normal.

I am sure your country Canada is very safe for ethnic minorities. But I am afraid you have no idea of the spike in violence against minorities in India. Ignoring that and pretending its all "normal" is living in denial. You can afford to be dismissive, because you dont have to deal with it in Canada. Those of us who live here have to. Big difference.

BawliBooch · Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:58 am

Got 5 mins to spare? Watch this explosive investigative film "The Men in The Tree" by Lalit Vachani on how the RSS orchestrates communal riots against Muslims, Christians & Dalits , through pre-planned lies, implants and rumours through their camps. Listen from two ex-RSS wholetimers, D. R. Goyal and Purushottam Agarwal talk about their own experience. These and many other "pracharaks" left RSS hit by their conscience and sense of remorse.
The Men in the Tree

unrave · Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:55 am

Right, only Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and Dalits have been the victims of religious violence in India, and curiously all of them were instigated by the RSS. All riots perpetrated against Hindus in India are fictional. RSS are first rate scums, but I have a theory that the media's attempt attempt one community as the perpetrators and all others as victims plays into the hands of the RSS.

unrave · Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:55 am

Right, only Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and Dalits have been the victims of religious violence in India, and curiously all of them were instigated by the RSS. All riots perpetrated against Hindus in India are fictional. RSS are first rate scums, but I have a theory that the media's attempt attempt one community as the perpetrators and all others as victims plays into the hands of the RSS.

BawliBooch · Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:57 am

unrave wrote:
Right, only Muslims, Christians, Sikhs and Dalits have been the victims of religious violence in India, and curiously all of them were instigated by the RSS. All riots perpetrated against Hindus in India are fictional. RSS are first rate scums, but I have a theory that the media's attempt attempt one community as the perpetrators and all others as victims plays into the hands of the RSS.

All riots in India have involved the majority community on one side. And fact is, post 1946 (Direct Action Day), all riots have seen active participation of the RSS. Dare you to prove otherwise.

The fact that so many educated Indians, mostly living abroad, choose to turn a blind eye to this kind of violence against minorities and even justify it (as BarfBag did earlier), says a lot about the degree of radicalization of Hindu society as a whole. Not a positive sign for the future.

unrave · Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:53 pm

1997 Coimbatore riots. No RSS.

As long as the left demonises one particular community while being blind to the faults of the other, they will be relegated to the margins of politics in India, any amount of support from the media not withstanding.

pvjin · Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:57 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
The fact that so many educated Indians, mostly living abroad, choose to turn a blind eye to this kind of violence against minorities and even justify it (as BarfBag did earlier), says a lot about the degree of radicalization of Hindu society as a whole. Not a positive sign for the future.

To me it appears that Hindus actually have some gut unlike us Europeans. If minorities don't respect the majority I don't see why the majority should respect them.

BawliBooch · Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:53 pm

unrave wrote:
1997 Coimbatore riots. No RSS.

You are wrong. The local unit of the RSS, Hindu Munnani was very much a participant in the 1997-98 riots in Coimbatore.

unrave wrote:
As long as the left demonises one particular community while being blind to the faults of the other, they will be relegated to the margins of politics in India, any amount of support from the media not withstanding.

This is not about the left. Dont know why you chose to bring the left into this discussion. They are irrelevant. This is about the rampant rise in radicalization among Indian resulting in increasing attacks on minority Muslims & Christians.

Really tragic to see educated Hindu's defend this shameful abuse of minorities.

pvjin wrote:
To me it appears that Hindus actually have some gut unlike us Europeans. If minorities don't respect the majority I don't see why the majority should respect them.

All people should respect the law of the land. If Majority community starts taking the law into its hands to teach minorities a lesson, it becomes a jungle raj. Kind of like what we saw in Afghanistan.

golfradio · Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:08 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
So what is the media supposed to do?

Report in a non-partisan objective manner free of political and personal bias.

But then you turn around and read obviously fallacious assertions like this which reek of strong personal bias

BawliBooch wrote:
But the RSS was always one of the perpetrators of communal violence in every riot since 1946.

and the report and the reporter loses all credibility and turns it into hysteric hyperbole. I challenge you to claim that with a straight face (or never mind, with your ignorance, you would) and you will be laughed off from any intellectual company.

By your assertions, the 1984 anti sikh riots (more lives were lost in that one massacre than any other single massacre) was the handiwork of the RSS. The then home minister who did not answer calls from the President Giani Zail Singh must have been an RSS shakha pramukh? What about the 1990 Kashmiri pandit massacres? How about the annual riots during Ganesh festival that were a regular fixture in Hyderabad around the Charminar? The Owaisi brothers have to be RSS activists for sure? Let not the fact that the Assam riots had all to do about linguistic fault lines between the Assamese and the huge influx of Bengali Bangladeshis, stand in the way of a good story.

BawliBooch wrote:
But I am afraid you have no idea of the spike in violence against minorities in India

Care to provide statistics? Or does your proclaimed journalistic credentials absolve you from it?

You have been here only 8 months and I have read your posts on other threads. If there is someone as bad as a right wing kook, it is a left wing nut bar. I think I know whom to ignore. Good luck in your journalistic career.

Rise of the partisan media and the loss of journalistic ethics

BawliBooch wrote:
Not a positive sign for the future.

unrave · Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:39 pm

BawliBooch wrote:

You are wrong. The local unit of the RSS, Hindu Munnani was very much a participant in the 1997-98 riots in Coimbatore.

Hindu Munnani (literally translated as 'Hindu Front') is not a local RSS unit. RSS has been trying to establish a footprint in the region for years without much success. And radical Muslim units share as much responsibility for the riots as Hindu Munnani. I would know: one of the victims was a (Hindu) teacher in my school, killed for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Islamists did not stop there of course, next year saw the serial bomb blasts that killed 60+ and crippled the economy of the city for several years.

Oh and please show me where I have defended the killing of anyone.

BawliBooch · Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:21 am

unrave wrote:
Hindu Munnani (literally translated as 'Hindu Front') is not a local RSS unit.

Right! Just like the Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP) is not a RSS and the neither is the Durga Vahini. They just are willing participants in every RSS project. I believe in corporate circles this is called "hiving off operations into Joint Ventures (JV)"?

unrave wrote:
Oh and please show me where I have defended the killing of anyone.

When you attempt to justify the lynching of Muslims & Christians by using whataboutery, that is defending murder.

golfradio wrote:
By your assertions, the 1984 anti sikh riots (more lives were lost in that one massacre than any other single massacre) was the handiwork of the RSS.

I was in Delhi when the 1984 Hindu-Sikh riots broke out and yes we have seen how Kamal Nath's men behaved during those three days. But we have also seen how the RSS provided much of the muscle during the riots.

As a matter of fact, one of the first things LK Advani did after becoming Home Minister was to withdraw charges against the RSS members accused in the 1984 riots.

Relevant newspaper report from the period.

golfradio wrote:
Care to provide statistics? Or does your proclaimed journalistic credentials absolve you from it?

How many Muslims or Christians were lynched before 2014? How many have happened since? Any incident that may have happened before was followed up with arrests and due legal process. Is that happening now? Most of the accused are getting off scot free because of the Govt's unwillingness to act against the perpetrators who are from their camp. It might be ok for you, it isnt ok for me.

Some interesting reading:
India Minorities Face Increased Sectarian Attacks
Christians in India increasingly under attack, study shows

Now turn around and call "Voice of America" and Guardian names. 'Cos isnt that the ultimate defense for the bhakt? Abuse the media that calls out abuse of human rights and democracy?

Must say @golfradio: for someone who lives in Canada, you seem to have no understanding of basic Canadian values like human rights, respect for law and gender equality. Your defense of the fascist RSS and their murderous attacks on minorities shows that despite the years spent in the west, the Savarna supremacist still is alive and well! Wonder why desi's in the West fail to integrate fully into the societies they immigrate to?

Such radicalized elements living in Canada are a risk to society. A few radicalized Sikh Canadians bought down an Air India jumbo that killed 268 Canadians. It seems Canada & the US will soon need to do something about the radicalized Hindu's in their midst baying for Muslim / Christian blood.

unrave · Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:39 am

Oh man, you're seriously deluded. I wish Anet had an option like reddit does to hide posts made by particular users so that the trash you write remains hidden. So much for being a 'journalist'.

BawliBooch · Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:03 am

unrave wrote:
I wish Anet had an option like reddit does to hide posts made by particular users so that the trash you write remains hidden. So much for being a 'journalist'.

Yeah! I wish there was a way to just wish away the ugly reality and see only those things that fit our world view.

There might be hope for you! In our Hindu mythology, there was this character called Gandhari - she came up with an ingenious way to avoid looking at the actions of her husband and evil sons.

Perhaps this might work for Muslim/Christian hating defenders of Dear Leader? And Trump supporters too!

golfradio · Sun Apr 30, 2017 3:12 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Must say @golfradio: for someone who lives in Canada, you seem to have no understanding of basic Canadian values like human rights, respect for law and gender equality. Your defense of the fascist RSS and their murderous attacks on minorities shows that despite the years spent in the west, the Savarna supremacist still is alive and well!

Your powers of critical reasoning are astute. My comment about a left wing nut being as bad as a right wing kook must have given it away :biggrin:

BawliBooch wrote:
Wonder why desi's in the West fail to integrate fully into the societies they immigrate to?

Can't speak for others but I do just fine, thank you. You should come visit sometime. I vote conservative federally if you must know. The liberal MP is the left wing nut who proposed and had others like her pass the motion M-103. Provincially, I voted for the Green Party when I was in a different riding. The conservative candidate was too far right off the centre and the liberal was a bleeding heart. See it's easy. I have no problem seeing the forest for the trees. You should try it some time.

Any how since you so obviously suck at your day job and we are on a site for aviation enthusiasts, let's talk about something else shall we?

How's that sim project coming along? Did you buy that LED projector you wanted for your sim? You should spend more time on it. Don't buy the Oculus Rift though. Those VR thingies are not for every one.

BawliBooch · Mon May 01, 2017 2:57 am

golfradio wrote:
Any how since you so obviously suck at your day job and we are on a site for aviation enthusiasts, let's talk about something else shall we?

How's that sim project coming along? Did you buy that LED projector you wanted for your sim? You should spend more time on it. Don't buy the Oculus Rift though. Those VR thingies are not for every one.

The sim project is done & dusted thank you.

As for my day job, I do very well thank you. Since India has become unliveable, I have made the same choice as your folks did a generation back - will be writing for a daily in Canada soon!

9w748capt · Mon May 01, 2017 3:51 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
Wonder why desi's in the West fail to integrate fully into the societies they immigrate to?

The hell? You are 110% WRONG on that one. Absolutely off base. Indian-Americans (irrespective of religion) are among the most successful ethnic groups (if not the most successful) in the US and Canada. A large chunk of our parents came over as engineers, doctors, businesspeople - and by and large have done extraordinarily well. I was raised in a small town in Michigan, not in New York, LA, or Chicago. There were hardly any asians at all in my schools growing up. Yet America proved itself to be a place where you can succeed on your merits, not because of your race or religion. There actually aren't many countries that can say that (see Western Europe). I consider myself unbelievably lucky to have grown up in such an accepting and tolerant country, today's bullshit be damned.

On a side note - we all agree that the crimes against minorities in India are wrong and uncalled for. No one disagrees there. But you also seem to completely gloss over the history of Islam and it's spread throughout the subcontinent (and world, really). You seem to totally forgive aurangzeb and his ilk for attempting to wipe out Hinduism/Buddhism/Jainism but demonize the radical Hindus and their actions today. I have to say attitudes like yours do nothing but motivate the RSS-types today.

ElPistolero · Mon May 01, 2017 4:16 pm

golfradio wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
The primary concern there (and here) is that some of the more unsavoury characters (like one poster here) have been emboldened and that there's a reluctance on the part of the "political movement" they belong to, to put them back in their boxes.

I would agree if there were marauding mobs across the length and breadth of the country, riots were breaking out everyday and the number and intensity of these incidents against minorities showed a marked spike. But they aren't. Without being apathetic, I would say it's situation normal.

ElPistolero wrote:
As it happens, some parties are less inclined to tackle these types of folk

Again I would agree if historically the trend proved it to be true. But they don't. Going back to my earlier assertion, the worst cases of communal riots and persecutions happened when the so called secular parties were in power. History shows that in India really no party has been able to contain these elements.

ElPistolero wrote:
Witness these bizarro meat bans and cow vigilantes.

And is that a new phenomenon? We are talking about the cow belt. The first recorded riot about cow slaughter was in 1893, 31 years before the RSS came into existence. Even the Brits with their callous methods of quelling riots, took 3 days to control the mobs. Cow vigilantism has and will continue to occur, no matter which party is in power.

And that's my beef (pun intended) with this kind of reporting. It simplifies a complex sociological issue. The reporting of these incidents reach a crescendo when there is a bogeyman. It provides for an easy narrative which suits the political agenda on hand.

Is it normal? HRW says it's not ( another 2 Muslims were killed over the weekend):

"Human Rights Watch report says that since the Hindu-nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party formed India's federal government in 2014, attacks against Muslims and Dalits (formerly known as untouchables) have risen over rumours that they sold, bought or killed cows for beef."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-39769172

This took place in Assam - not really cow belt, but under BJP rule.

In any case, we're dancing around the issue. The fact that incidents like this can take place under any government isn't in dispute. There are, however, questions about the different parties' willingness to do something about it. The number of incidents is higher than before, which one might reasonably interpret as indicative of the ruling parties position on it.

And no, they're not just targeting beef; there are entire 'meat' bans in place now. No snowflake (regardless of religion) should have the right to kill someone for eating any type of animal meat, simply because it offends them. Evidently some Hindutva folk dispute this. It's not a complex sociological issue - it's just a reflection of inferior values and backward thinking that needs to be quashed (like that other complex sociological issue - sati).

Interesting that you voted Conservative federally, given the whole C-24 issue (two classes of citizenship) and the 905's rejection of it. As a society/community defining issue, it was far more consequential than M-103. But then again, I accept that some immigrants might find it easier to vote in favour of two-tiered citizenship than to vote for people of certain faiths.

Maybe Leitch is right; maybe we do need more testing for potential immigrants on values.

ElPistolero · Mon May 01, 2017 4:29 pm

9w748capt wrote:

On a side note - we all agree that the crimes against minorities in India are wrong and uncalled for. No one disagrees there. But you also seem to completely gloss over the history of Islam and it's spread throughout the subcontinent (and world, really). You seem to totally forgive aurangzeb and his ilk for attempting to wipe out Hinduism/Buddhism/Jainism but demonize the radical Hindus and their actions today. I have to say attitudes like yours do nothing but motivate the RSS-types today.

In short, we all agree that crimes against minorities are wrong, but we should also believe that it is wrong to dismiss events that took place 300 years ago as irrelevant to what's taking place today.

I personally tend to see what Aurangzeb and co did 350+ years ago as irrelevant to crimes against Muslims in India today (I certainly don't want to be lynched in London for what my ancestors may or may not have done to Brit civilians during the 1857 mutiny - a more recent event). Unless, of course, the goal of dredging it up constantly is to keep memories and antagonistic sentiments fresh.

I think we should be able to clearly state that some of these Hindutva types are on the wrong side of morality without resorting to 350+-year old history in a bid to understand them.

Or are you suggesting that they're just a modern Hindu incarnation of Aurangzeb and co?

9w748capt · Mon May 01, 2017 5:11 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
9w748capt wrote:

On a side note - we all agree that the crimes against minorities in India are wrong and uncalled for. No one disagrees there. But you also seem to completely gloss over the history of Islam and it's spread throughout the subcontinent (and world, really). You seem to totally forgive aurangzeb and his ilk for attempting to wipe out Hinduism/Buddhism/Jainism but demonize the radical Hindus and their actions today. I have to say attitudes like yours do nothing but motivate the RSS-types today.

In short, we all agree that crimes against minorities are wrong, but we should also believe that it is wrong to dismiss events that took place 300 years ago as irrelevant to what's taking place today.

I personally tend to see what Aurangzeb and co did 350+ years ago as irrelevant to crimes against Muslims in India today (I certainly don't want to be lynched in London for what my ancestors may or may not have done to Brit civilians during the 1857 mutiny - a more recent event). Unless, of course, the goal of dredging it up constantly is to keep memories and antagonistic sentiments fresh.

I think we should be able to clearly state that some of these Hindutva types are on the wrong side of morality without resorting to 350+-year old history in a bid to understand them.

Or are you suggesting that they're just a modern Hindu incarnation of Aurangzeb and co?

No not suggesting that at all. What I'm trying to say is that I totally understand people like BawliBooch and their extreme disdain for the Hindutva-types who have hijacked Hinduism and created a very bad name for Hindus (and I don't even really consider myself that religious but am certainly proud of my heritage) - but at the same time I feel it's important to understand the origins of RSS and similar organizations and what their motivations might have been. For example there's no questioning the atrocities committed by the muslim invaders during the mughal era, regardless of how long ago it was. Granted one can definitely point to other examples - like in Cambodia where the constant state of war between the Hindu and Buddhist Kings eventually led to the downfall of the Khmer Empire. But I agree there's no place for retaliation hundreds of years later against innocent people of any religion (but at the same time I don't think it's appropriate to totally forget history either). Certainly what would be better is constructive dialogue of a mutually beneficial nature which would ideally lead to the ability to understand one another and peacefully coexist. But god knows that's too much to ask for these days - not just in India, but anywhere.

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