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LAX772LR
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Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:37 pm

Forgive me if I missed any extant thread about this; but sadly, Otto Warmbier, the 21yr-old UVA student on a tour of N.Korea who was sentenced to 15yrs hard labor for taking a banner out of his hotel room (and then returned last week in a vegetative state), has died.

Image

The official explanation by the N.Korean regime was a "Botulism infection," even though medical examination revealed trauma and massive brain damage linked to oxygen deprivation.

Image

The last his parents will have ever heard him speak, is his being forced to tearfully apologize to the regime in their kangaroo-court setting, before being sentenced. How freakin' tragic.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:45 pm

Very tragic indeed. Poor guy and poor family.
RIP.

Yet many westerners still travel to this loser country for the "adventure". I can only hope this will be a wake up call to at least some potential tourists to stay far away from that place.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:03 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
Very tragic indeed. Poor guy and poor family.
RIP.

Yet many westerners still travel to this loser country for the "adventure". I can only hope this will be a wake up call to at least some potential tourists to stay far away from that place.


It is a very cruel regime. 100.000's of North Koreans are going to a hell, just like this poor chap.

If you go to such a country, don't do anything which could be in any way taken offense, be aware what kind of regime you visit. Don't take any photographs of the military. Don't take any photographs of random people. Don't speak to anyone just random. You can visit, I actually would like to, just to see this surrealistic world before it is going to collapse.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:51 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
Yet many westerners still travel to this loser country for the "adventure". I can only hope this will be a wake up call to at least some potential tourists to stay far away from that place.

Same.

Especially since the Euna Lee and Laura Ling imprisonment (the journalists that former President Clinton ended up going over there to retrieve); whereafter the State Department made it absolutely clear, in no uncertain terms, that we're not going to bail out every single dumbass who goes over there and ends up getting detained.

Image

Sorry, but going over there at this point, when so few countries have diplomatic relationships or clear expectations for visiting patronage... is just plain irresponsible IMO. And outright foolish.

Not to say that this kid deserved what happened to him (we was stupid as f#ck for what he did, let's make no bones about that), but there's plenty of places to go for "adventure." A place where sneezing the wrong way can get you hard labor? No. Just no. Stay your ass home.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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alberchico
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:53 pm

Dutchy wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Very tragic indeed. Poor guy and poor family.
RIP.

Yet many westerners still travel to this loser country for the "adventure". I can only hope this will be a wake up call to at least some potential tourists to stay far away from that place.


It is a very cruel regime. 100.000's of North Koreans are going to a hell, just like this poor chap.

If you go to such a country, don't do anything which could be in any way taken offense, be aware what kind of regime you visit. Don't take any photographs of the military. Don't take any photographs of random people. Don't speak to anyone just random. You can visit, I actually would like to, just to see this surrealistic world before it is going to collapse.


Take a look at this video. This guy takes a few steps away from the group to take a picture,and gets called out for it. I wouldn't be surprised if the U.S. bans Americans from visiting altogether.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN6NUCXcWLQ
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
Zaf
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:02 pm

Dutchy wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Don't take any photographs of the military. Don't take any photographs of random people. Don't speak to anyone just random.

Its not that strict, there are lots of youtube videos by people who visited.

RIP Otto Warmbier
 
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alberchico
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:34 pm

If you want your blood to boil, see how the Huffington Post treated his arrest when it first happened.

http://archive.is/kLVA9
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:37 pm

I used to want to visit NK for the adventure, but after arching a few documentaries and following Otto Warmbiers case, I hope the Kim regime is met with a few Tomahawk and Jdams to come to a fitting end. Even better would be for him to be caught alive, tried, and executed at The Hague; or in my dream world, Huntsville, Texas, home of the State of Texas' execution chamber.

The NK top brass know they won't stand a chance in the event of an American invasion . Watch "Inside the Kimdom", it's an NHK documentary on YouTube.

This is truly a case of curiosity killed the cat, and has surely opened my eyes to finally accepting that I as a young person am not untouchable and the world is not all sunshine and rainbows.

RIP Otto.
Eat 'em up Kats!
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:33 am

alberchico wrote:
If you want your blood to boil, see how the Huffington Post treated his arrest when it first happened.

http://archive.is/kLVA9


Within that story there is a link to a New York Times news account of the arrest. Seems pretty straight reporting to me.

My question to you is, do you think that either the NYT news story, or the opinion piece by La Sha, published by Huffington Post, should be suppressed?

Or are opinions that in some manner do not agree with what you or I might think nevertheless worthy of publication?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:59 am

TWA772LR wrote:
The NK top brass know they won't stand a chance in the event of an American invasion.

They also know that they can create millions of corpses in Seoul, in the span between the first and final shot of any such invasion..... which is essentially what's been stopping any Western power from invading them.

That, and China doesn't want a humanitarian crisis spilling over their border, so they of all entities are the last ones who want the Kim dynasty to fail.



TWA772LR wrote:
Watch "Inside the Kimdom", it's an NHK documentary on YouTube.

Interesting.


TWA772LR wrote:
This is truly a case of curiosity killed the cat

Probably the best overall description of this entire sad ordeal. :(
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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cpd
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:19 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
The NK top brass know they won't stand a chance in the event of an American invasion.

They also know that they can create millions of corpses in Seoul, in the span between the first and final shot of any such invasion..... which is essentially what's been stopping any Western power from invading them.

That, and China doesn't want a humanitarian crisis spilling over their border, so they of all entities are the last ones who want the Kim dynasty to fail.



TWA772LR wrote:
Watch "Inside the Kimdom", it's an NHK documentary on YouTube.

Interesting.


TWA772LR wrote:
This is truly a case of curiosity killed the cat

Probably the best overall description of this entire sad ordeal. :(



Fake an industrial emergency in Seoul, all people need to evacuate for safety, warn NK that the disaster might also affect them. When everyone is safely evacuated - start dealing with NK.
 
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DDR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:19 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
The NK top brass know they won't stand a chance in the event of an American invasion.

They also know that they can create millions of corpses in Seoul, in the span between the first and final shot of any such invasion..... which is essentially what's been stopping any Western power from invading them.

This. Seoul would be wiped off the face of the Earth.
 
jbflyguy84
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:29 am

Having been there myself, twice, its really simply know the rules and play by the rules... North Koreans are not some scary monster that we should all be afraid of... Just as I have to when in the middle east, I play by their rules and what they says goes.

I honestly never had any fear at any point on my visits, hell, even the customs officer on my arrival last time bent over backwards to apologise to me for saying that I was bringing a book into the country when it was just 2 cartons of cigarettes.

The hotel with the idiot stayed was the one where there is, allegedly, secret communication rooms (its actually not so secret, the elevator lists floor 6 as a 'communication room') and wanted to go in there. There are many doors that say no entry, staff only etc and we are clearly told that in that building and any others for that matter that we follow whatever the says - its really not rocket science.

Was I allowed to go off in a taxi or walk around freely, no I wasn't, but I also wasn't told once that I wasn't allowed to take a picture of something.

People who haven't set foot in the country really have no leg to stand on when talking smack about the country. Sure, they have big issues, but its not like Kim Jong Un is walking the streets beheading people... gotta love the media!
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:48 am

jbflyguy84 wrote:
Having been there myself, twice, its really simply know the rules and play by the rules... North Koreans are not some scary monster that we should all be afraid of... Just as I have to when in the middle east, I play by their rules and what they says goes.

I honestly never had any fear at any point on my visits, hell, even the customs officer on my arrival last time bent over backwards to apologise to me for saying that I was bringing a book into the country when it was just 2 cartons of cigarettes.

The hotel with the idiot stayed was the one where there is, allegedly, secret communication rooms (its actually not so secret, the elevator lists floor 6 as a 'communication room') and wanted to go in there. There are many doors that say no entry, staff only etc and we are clearly told that in that building and any others for that matter that we follow whatever the says - its really not rocket science.

Was I allowed to go off in a taxi or walk around freely, no I wasn't, but I also wasn't told once that I wasn't allowed to take a picture of something.

People who haven't set foot in the country really have no leg to stand on when talking smack about the country. Sure, they have big issues, but its not like Kim Jong Un is walking the streets beheading people... gotta love the media!

Believe me I know. Like I've said, I've read TRs about people going to NK. I always play by the rules of whatever country I'm in. I even saw on one of the docs a NK woman saw a cop abusing someone (or doing something she didn't agree with) and started shoving the cop and cussing at him and all the cop said was go away.

It's just hard for Americans to swallow this because NK is a lose cannon and no one knows for sure what little things can get you in trouble and what mood the cop that catches you may be in.

That being said, I'd rather go to prison in Iran or the Soviet Union. It may not be much better, but at least it's better. And given the current state of affairs between the US and NK, I say, hell no I won't go.
Eat 'em up Kats!
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:50 am

DDR wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
The NK top brass know they won't stand a chance in the event of an American invasion.

They also know that they can create millions of corpses in Seoul, in the span between the first and final shot of any such invasion..... which is essentially what's been stopping any Western power from invading them.

This. Seoul would be wiped off the face of the Earth.

Seoul would be destroyed but you can't tell me that the South Koreans don't have a plan in place for if/when that happens.
Eat 'em up Kats!
 
ual777
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:51 am

jbflyguy84 wrote:
Having been there myself, twice, its really simply know the rules and play by the rules... North Koreans are not some scary monster that we should all be afraid of... Just as I have to when in the middle east, I play by their rules and what they says goes.

I honestly never had any fear at any point on my visits, hell, even the customs officer on my arrival last time bent over backwards to apologise to me for saying that I was bringing a book into the country when it was just 2 cartons of cigarettes.

The hotel with the idiot stayed was the one where there is, allegedly, secret communication rooms (its actually not so secret, the elevator lists floor 6 as a 'communication room') and wanted to go in there. There are many doors that say no entry, staff only etc and we are clearly told that in that building and any others for that matter that we follow whatever the says - its really not rocket science.

Was I allowed to go off in a taxi or walk around freely, no I wasn't, but I also wasn't told once that I wasn't allowed to take a picture of something.

People who haven't set foot in the country really have no leg to stand on when talking smack about the country. Sure, they have big issues, but its not like Kim Jong Un is walking the streets beheading people... gotta love the media!


No, he just has them executed with anti aircraft guns instead.

His family's regime is one of the most oppressive and brutal on the planet and has made the lives of millions a living hell. He's shelled innocent S. Korean civilians, and executes family members of those deemed "enemies of the state." Those that are lucky enough to not be killed outright are sent to concentration camps.

Yes the kid was dumb, but getting 15 years hard labor and coming back a comatose vegatable 15 months later and dying is outrageous for trying to shanghai some banner.

Your tourist dollars/euros/whatever help prop up this murderous regime, and apparently some of their propaganda worked.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
jbflyguy84
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:14 am

ual777 wrote:

Your tourist dollars/euros/whatever help prop up this murderous regime, and apparently some of their propaganda worked.


Is it all kittens and rainbows? No, its certainly not, but on the flip side it is also not downtown Kabul or some shady suburb of a second tier US City. I'll reiterate, play by the rules and everything is fine and that goes for locals and tourists alike.

Tourism has this wonderful ability to broaden ones mind. I'll never forgot some of the conversations I had with local people. really quite amazing. They hold their leader as a demigod, actually as their father as religion is not practiced publicly there. I find it an insane mentality to have, but who I am to judge?

I went in with an open mind and came out the same way.
 
jbflyguy84
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:21 am

TWA772LR wrote:

It's just hard for Americans to swallow this because NK is a lose cannon and no one knows for sure what little things can get you in trouble and what mood the cop that catches you may be in.



You've touched on an interesting point, and I think it is slightly different for Americans. I had a young guy (just about to enter college) who was a US Citizen and he was certainly treated differently to the rest of us (I am Australian). He was the only US Citizen on the tour actually.

I actually went with YPT, which is the company Warmbier went with, and now they have said they will stop taking Americans as they are the ones that are being watched most closely. They also have more restrictive entrance/exit requirements and can't visit certain parts of the country.

I will agree that now may not be the best time travel, particularly with Trump being as much of a loose cannon as Kim. Although I doubt nothing will happen, its Trump's mouth that will ruin it for most of us.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:42 am

cpd wrote:
Fake an industrial emergency in Seoul, all people need to evacuate for safety, warn NK that the disaster might also affect them. When everyone is safely evacuated - start dealing with NK.

K, and now for a dose of reality:

The largest "organized" emergency evacuation in modern western society was the evacuation of New Orleans in the week immediately prior to Hurricane Katrina: more than 800,000 of the metro's 1.5million vacated the metropolitan area. And yet we still had remainders, stragglers, chaotic traffic, strandings, and deaths/injuries.... and that was BEFORE the storm hit.

800,000 out of 1.5million.
Now realize that Seoul is a metro of 24million.................



TWA772LR wrote:
DDR wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
They also know that they can create millions of corpses in Seoul, in the span between the first and final shot of any such invasion..... which is essentially what's been stopping any Western power from invading them.

This. Seoul would be wiped off the face of the Earth.

Seoul would be destroyed but you can't tell me that the South Koreans don't have a plan in place for if/when that happens.

Sure they do: watch millions of their people die.
Sad, but logistically inevitable, if such an attack were to happen.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:03 am

TWA772LR wrote:

The NK top brass know they won't stand a chance in the event of an American invasion . Watch "Inside the Kimdom", it's an NHK documentary on YouTube.



The chances of a US invasion of North Korea are slim to piss all. Of course you would win but these guys have been preparing for this eventuality for decades, it will be a bloodbath for both sides.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:25 am

TWA772LR wrote:
I used to want to visit NK for the adventure, but after arching a few documentaries and following Otto Warmbiers case, I hope the Kim regime is met with a few Tomahawk and Jdams to come to a fitting end. Even better would be for him to be caught alive, tried, and executed at The Hague; or in my dream world, Huntsville, Texas, home of the State of Texas' execution chamber.

The NK top brass know they won't stand a chance in the event of an American invasion . Watch "Inside the Kimdom", it's an NHK documentary on YouTube.

This is truly a case of curiosity killed the cat, and has surely opened my eyes to finally accepting that I as a young person am not untouchable and the world is not all sunshine and rainbows.

RIP Otto.


Phhhh, do you ever think about consequences? Killing for you is apparently quite easy. Tried in The Hague is possible, enough for a court case, killing no, the civilized world doesn't do executions anymore, certainly not in my country.

Killing a few millions in an American invasion doesn't leave you warm or cold? Even if a few thousand of those are American soldiers? There are a million North Korean soldiers trained and armed, far less well trained and equipped but there are too many. And as mentioned, Seoul would be hit within 30 an hour. Like you brilliantly argued, the regime has nothing to loose.

TWA772LR wrote:
That being said, I'd rather go to prison in Iran or the Soviet Union. It may not be much better, but at least it's better. And given the current state of affairs between the US and NK, I say, hell no I won't go.


Soviet Union? That one seized to exist 25years ago.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:58 am

jbflyguy84 wrote:
People who haven't set foot in the country really have no leg to stand on when talking smack about the country.

You paid ridiculous money for even more ridiculous dog and pony show. That's all. Given its ethical and moral implications, really nothing to brag about.
It certainly does not make you some sort of an expert.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:59 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:

The NK top brass know they won't stand a chance in the event of an American invasion . Watch "Inside the Kimdom", it's an NHK documentary on YouTube.



The chances of a US invasion of North Korea are slim to piss all. Of course you would win but these guys have been preparing for this eventuality for decades, it will be a bloodbath for both sides.

The is a huge morale problem among the rank and file NK troops. Their high brass also make then believe we are still only at out military might of the 50s. Watch the documentary I mentioned in an earlier reply. It was a good one.
Eat 'em up Kats!
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:03 pm

Dutchy wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
I used to want to visit NK for the adventure, but after arching a few documentaries and following Otto Warmbiers case, I hope the Kim regime is met with a few Tomahawk and Jdams to come to a fitting end. Even better would be for him to be caught alive, tried, and executed at The Hague; or in my dream world, Huntsville, Texas, home of the State of Texas' execution chamber.

The NK top brass know they won't stand a chance in the event of an American invasion . Watch "Inside the Kimdom", it's an NHK documentary on YouTube.

This is truly a case of curiosity killed the cat, and has surely opened my eyes to finally accepting that I as a young person am not untouchable and the world is not all sunshine and rainbows.

RIP Otto.


Phhhh, do you ever think about consequences? Killing for you is apparently quite easy. Tried in The Hague is possible, enough for a court case, killing no, the civilized world doesn't do executions anymore, certainly not in my country.

Killing a few millions in an American invasion doesn't leave you warm or cold? Even if a few thousand of those are American soldiers? There are a million North Korean soldiers trained and armed, far less well trained and equipped but there are too many. And as mentioned, Seoul would be hit within 30 an hour. Like you brilliantly argued, the regime has nothing to loose.

TWA772LR wrote:
That being said, I'd rather go to prison in Iran or the Soviet Union. It may not be much better, but at least it's better. And given the current state of affairs between the US and NK, I say, hell no I won't go.


Soviet Union? That one seized to exist 25years ago.

The absolute last thing I want for any country is war, you're starting to twist words. And Kim could be caught by any country in the world under the doctrine of universality, tried, and even executed. That's how Israel caught Adolf Eichmann.

I know the USSR is gone. Considering the USSR was a considerably more open country than NK (PepsiCo had operations in the USSR even in the 70s) and some sense of human rights and non-mass brainwashing. It's meant to be anachronistic.
Last edited by TWA772LR on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eat 'em up Kats!
 
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pvjin
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:04 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
The is a huge morale problem among the rank and file NK troops. Their high brass also make then believe we are still only at out military might of the 50s. Watch the documentary I mentioned in an earlier reply. It was a good one.


Sure, but they would still kill loads of people in Seoul with their artillery, and after the invasion the entire North Korea would be a huge lawless and chaotic mess. Defeating the NK military isn't the problem, it's the civilian casualties in South Korea and handling what happens after the regime falls. USA couldn't stabilize Iraq and Afghanistan after their invasions, there's no reason to believe they would do much better in North Korea.

As for this student, assuming he indeed took the banner he wasn't exactly the brightest candle out there. When you travel to a country like North Korea you better not mess around, this should be pure common sense.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:11 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
The absolute last thing I want for any country is war, you're starting to twist words. And Kim could be caught by any country in the world under the doctrine of universality, tried, and even executed. That's how Israel caught Adolf Eichmann.


Sending some few Tomahawk and Jdams isn't going to war? Ok, check. The problem with rhetoric like that is that if it becomes fact, you will have an all out war. So hoping for this equals to go to war (and yes it is an act of war, if unprovoked).

As for execution, then a country should have the death penalty in the first place, only 20 countries have it and 3 countries probably have it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Calder
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:15 pm

Tremendously sad.

I shudder to think of what this poor kid went through after his "trial" and conviction.
C. T.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:16 pm

jbflyguy84 wrote:
Is it all kittens and rainbows? No, its certainly not, but on the flip side it is also not downtown Kabul or some shady suburb of a second tier US City. I'll reiterate, play by the rules and everything is fine and that goes for locals and tourists alike.


Yes, play by the rules - however the other side aren't playing by the rules when they used chemical weapons to kill one of their own IN A PUBLIC AREA of another country.

Why should we allow tourism money to flow into their coffers to prop up a despotic regime?
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
The absolute last thing I want for any country is war, you're starting to twist words. And Kim could be caught by any country in the world under the doctrine of universality, tried, and even executed. That's how Israel caught Adolf Eichmann.


Sending some few Tomahawk and Jdams isn't going to war? Ok, check. The problem with rhetoric like that is that if it becomes fact, you will have an all out war. So hoping for this equals to go to war (and yes it is an act of war, if unprovoked)..

That's what my emotional side is saying. I'm not my President to where I only make emotionally-based decisions. And since I'm not in a position of power, I can say whatever I want and nothing would happen.
Eat 'em up Kats!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:30 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
The absolute last thing I want for any country is war, you're starting to twist words. And Kim could be caught by any country in the world under the doctrine of universality, tried, and even executed. That's how Israel caught Adolf Eichmann.


Sending some few Tomahawk and Jdams isn't going to war? Ok, check. The problem with rhetoric like that is that if it becomes fact, you will have an all out war. So hoping for this equals to go to war (and yes it is an act of war, if unprovoked)..

That's what my emotional side is saying. I'm not my President to where I only make emotionally-based decisions. And since I'm not in a position of power, I can say whatever I want and nothing would happen.


that's true :D
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
c933103
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:53 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Not to say that this kid deserved what happened to him (we was stupid as f#ck for what he did, let's make no bones about that), but there's plenty of places to go for "adventure." A place where sneezing the wrong way can get you hard labor? No. Just no. Stay your ass home.


Zaf wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Don't take any photographs of the military. Don't take any photographs of random people. Don't speak to anyone just random.

Its not that strict, there are lots of youtube videos by people who visited.

RIP Otto Warmbier

It is not that strict, but the thing is how will you be able to tell things that are really sensitive apart from things that are only apparently not that sensitive? And who do you guys think the reason why North Korea killed that guy is really just because he have taken banner away?
 
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pvjin
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:49 pm

c933103 wrote:
It is not that strict, but the thing is how will you be able to tell things that are really sensitive apart from things that are only apparently not that sensitive? And who do you guys think the reason why North Korea killed that guy is really just because he have taken banner away?


Probably it would be a good start not to steal anything, usually people get kind of sensitive about somebody stealing their property. Obviously he got killed because of politics with theft being a mere excuse, but he wouldn't have ended up in that situation if he hadn't behaved in such a stupid manner.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Aesma
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:48 pm

Americans citizens are a bargaining chip and propaganda tool for the regime. He probably had an accident.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
c933103
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:28 pm

pvjin wrote:
c933103 wrote:
It is not that strict, but the thing is how will you be able to tell things that are really sensitive apart from things that are only apparently not that sensitive? And who do you guys think the reason why North Korea killed that guy is really just because he have taken banner away?


Probably it would be a good start not to steal anything, usually people get kind of sensitive about somebody stealing their property. Obviously he got killed because of politics with theft being a mere excuse, but he wouldn't have ended up in that situation if he hadn't behaved in such a stupid manner.

I mean, do you think he's really stealing thing as Pyongyang advertise?
 
ltbewr
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:57 pm

One issue as to this person's death will be how the USA, and in particular Pres. Donald Trump's administration will handle it. Will Trump push for a more confrontational policy, threaten war or push China even harder to get a deal to end the autocratic leadership there ? Will Trump do something just to say former Pres. Obama was wrong in his policy, to insult him and Trump look like 'more of real President' ?
NK is a terrible mix of issues, near impossible to deal with and I don't want the USA or any country extorted by them.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:18 pm

pvjin wrote:
c933103 wrote:
It is not that strict, but the thing is how will you be able to tell things that are really sensitive apart from things that are only apparently not that sensitive? And who do you guys think the reason why North Korea killed that guy is really just because he have taken banner away?


Probably it would be a good start not to steal anything, usually people get kind of sensitive about somebody stealing their property. Obviously he got killed because of politics with theft being a mere excuse, but he wouldn't have ended up in that situation if he hadn't behaved in such a stupid manner.


And even so, stealing or not, nobody in their right senses would end up in North Korea without actively knowing what they went into. The DPRK isn't a place you accidentally book a charter holiday to, it takes some serious planning and work to go there (unless they kidnap you, but I don't think this was the case here). You know that the DPRK and the USA have a tense relationship, and that tourists have gotten into major trouble in the country in the past. While the outcome is sad, I can't really have any pity with someone who takes such chances. IMHO, it is no different from those people on youtube who hang from the edges of skyscrapers. It is entirely at their own risk.
 
Zaf
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:13 pm

I don't think he was killed by NK. He probably tried to hang himself and the wardens noticed too late he got his brain damaged due too lack of oxygen.
He would be more valuable for them in healthy condition.
 
c933103
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:43 pm

Zaf wrote:
I don't think he was killed by NK. He probably tried to hang himself and the wardens noticed too late he got his brain damaged due too lack of oxygen.
He would be more valuable for them in healthy condition.

Then they would have no reason to cover it up as caused by Botulism ?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:36 am

ltbewr wrote:
One issue as to this person's death will be how the USA, and in particular Pres. Donald Trump's administration will handle it. Will Trump push for a more confrontational policy, threaten war or push China even harder to get a deal to end the autocratic leadership there ? Will Trump do something just to say former Pres. Obama was wrong in his policy, to insult him and Trump look like 'more of real President' ?
NK is a terrible mix of issues, near impossible to deal with and I don't want the USA or any country extorted by them.

He got China to be tougher on Kim, but now Russia is softening up. I'm kind of surprised we aren't hearing cries of war from the public given the recent tensions. Although, if war didn't result from the 1970's axe murders on the DMZ, or the shelling of Yeonpyeong Island, this surely won't. In the grand scheme, this barely shows up on the radar.

I put my emotional rhetoric upthread, but my logical rhetoric says the only war that will happen in North Korea is if they actually launch a warhead to the US, Japan, or SK. Then the Chinese and Russians will look the other way as the US goes in.

Korean Reunification, be it Pyongyang-based or Seoul-based, will not come without bloodshed.
Eat 'em up Kats!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:40 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Then the Chinese and Russians will look the other way as the US goes in.

...depends on HOW the US "goes in."

Beijing is only 420nm from Pyongyang, Shanghai only 100nm further; the Chinese would NOT be keen on certain types of armament/conflict (e.g. nuclear, but other possible examples) happening so close to the mainland's two most important cities.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:06 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Then the Chinese and Russians will look the other way as the US goes in.

...depends on HOW the US "goes in."

Beijing is only 420nm from Pyongyang, Shanghai only 100nm further; the Chinese would NOT be keen on certain types of armament/conflict (e.g. nuclear, but other possible examples) happening so close to the mainland's two most important cities.


Chinses aren't too keen to have an American friendly nation on its border, so they are perfectly happy with a buffer state between South Korea and China. And China has a protection agreement with North Korea to the same extent as America has with South Korea. So looking away, in this case, means breaking such an agreement.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:27 am

Dutchy wrote:
So looking away, in this case, means breaking such an agreement.

Doubtful that China has the slightest concern for that... after all, what would be the repercussions if it did? Nothing.

China's concerns are its own. Perhaps most notably, their aversion to the humanitarian crisis that would be on their doorstep should the Kim dynasty fall. We as Westerners often assume that disaffected and/or newly-freed N.Koreans would head for the South.

But (IINM it was) Peter Bergen who detailed that that's unlikely to be the case for two reasons:

  • they've been told every day for the last half-century that the South is basically the worst place in the universe
  • they know which direction that the trains that bear the food/agricultural supplements from China come from; and following any breakdown of structural authority, they'll likely get desperate then head in that direction-- bringing them straight to Chinese cities like Dandong.

...which is of course, the LAST thing China wants.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
jbflyguy84
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:47 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
jbflyguy84 wrote:
People who haven't set foot in the country really have no leg to stand on when talking smack about the country.

You paid ridiculous money for even more ridiculous dog and pony show. That's all. Given its ethical and moral implications, really nothing to brag about.
It certainly does not make you some sort of an expert.


1) EUR1,400 is certainly not a 'ridiculous' amount of money...I've spent more on 3 nights in a hotel in NYC!
2) I've at least been there. Twice. As compared to you, who I'm guess hasn't been once, so your when your knowledge is compared to mine makes me a textbook definition of expert...

Cheers!
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:28 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Then the Chinese and Russians will look the other way as the US goes in.

...depends on HOW the US "goes in."

Beijing is only 420nm from Pyongyang, Shanghai only 100nm further; the Chinese would NOT be keen on certain types of armament/conflict (e.g. nuclear, but other possible examples) happening so close to the mainland's two most important cities.

I don't think the US wpuld retaliate with a u clear response. As you stated with China, as well as Japan being in close proximity, there's too much bad that can happen with a nuke hitting the Peninsula.

The documentary I mentioned showed maps with NK AAA positions and their projected ranges. I'd like to know if there are any similar maps to Iraqi positions during the first Gulf War. There were a ton of positions in the mountains and a whole giant ring around Pyongyang.
Eat 'em up Kats!
 
flyguy89
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:54 pm

jbflyguy84 wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
jbflyguy84 wrote:
People who haven't set foot in the country really have no leg to stand on when talking smack about the country.

You paid ridiculous money for even more ridiculous dog and pony show. That's all. Given its ethical and moral implications, really nothing to brag about.
It certainly does not make you some sort of an expert.


1) EUR1,400 is certainly not a 'ridiculous' amount of money...I've spent more on 3 nights in a hotel in NYC!
2) I've at least been there. Twice. As compared to you, who I'm guess hasn't been once, so your when your knowledge is compared to mine makes me a textbook definition of expert...

Cheers!

You only saw exactly what the North Korean government wanted you to see. The only thing going on those tours makes you an "expert" in is propaganda.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:29 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
I don't think the US wpuld retaliate with a u clear response. As you stated with China, as well as Japan being in close proximity, there's too much bad that can happen with a nuke hitting the Peninsula.

I don't believe that even Trump is stupid/reckless enough to preemptively launch a Nuke.... but if Kim does, all bets are off.



TWA772LR wrote:
The documentary I mentioned

Watched it last night. Pretty interesting.

Though I was surprised at some of the people being so willing to show their face, seeing as they were still in proximity of the area, and considering the regime's penchant for kidnapping.



flyguy89 wrote:
jbflyguy84 wrote:
I've at least been there. Twice. As compared to you, who I'm guess hasn't been once, so your when your knowledge is compared to mine makes me a textbook definition of expert.

You only saw exactly what the North Korean government wanted you to see. The only thing going on those tours makes you an "expert" in is propaganda.

And apparently too woefully naive to realize it...
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:27 pm

https://fee.org/articles/class-and-race ... trocities/

Article about this young mans death pointing out how last year when he was arrested, some people thought it was schadenfreude and seemed to make an issue of him being a white, middle class student.
 
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DDR
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:26 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
I don't think the US wpuld retaliate with a u clear response. As you stated with China, as well as Japan being in close proximity, there's too much bad that can happen with a nuke hitting the Peninsula.

I don't believe that even Trump is stupid/reckless enough to preemptively launch a Nuke.... but if Kim does, all bets are off.



TWA772LR wrote:
The documentary I mentioned

Watched it last night. Pretty interesting.

Though I was surprised at some of the people being so willing to show their face, seeing as they were still in proximity of the area, and considering the regime's penchant for kidnapping.



flyguy89 wrote:
jbflyguy84 wrote:
I've at least been there. Twice. As compared to you, who I'm guess hasn't been once, so your when your knowledge is compared to mine makes me a textbook definition of expert.

You only saw exactly what the North Korean government wanted you to see. The only thing going on those tours makes you an "expert" in is propaganda.

And apparently too woefully naive to realize it...


Another informative and well thought out response LAX772LR. I agree completely.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:59 am

LAX772LR wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
I don't think the US wpuld retaliate with a u clear response. As you stated with China, as well as Japan being in close proximity, there's too much bad that can happen with a nuke hitting the Peninsula.

I don't believe that even Trump is stupid/reckless enough to preemptively launch a Nuke....

I agree as to nukes.

What I think will probably happen is that the US will launch a massive number of non-nuke missiles to take out all North Korean missile launch facilities, supply depots, and all artillery having a range capable of reaching Seoul. Also air strikes to knock out all NK air activity.

There will be no immediate need to launch a ground invasion.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Student detained by N.Korea for taking banner, dies

Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:30 am

BobPatterson wrote:
What I think will probably happen is that the US will launch a massive number of non-nuke missiles to take out all North Korean missile launch facilities, supply depots, and all artillery having a range capable of reaching Seoul. Also air strikes to knock out all NK air activity.


Good luck with that, the North Koreans are like mole-rats. They could have several missile launch facilities that we don't know about. There is no guarantee that they could hit them all. Same goes for hidden artillery emplacements and supply depots, not to mention the futility of hitting moving targets with cruise-missiles.

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