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BawliBooch
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Re: R u s s i a

Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:09 am

More than Putin, it is some strategists in the West who are furious that Russia hasn't just withered away like they had hoped. Instead with Putin in charge, Russia has renewed itself for the new century and once again emerged on the world stage as a major player. This has led to some furious hand-wringing in western capitals.

Is Putin and his cabal corrupt? For sure! But certainly no more or less than the corrupt Democrat-Republican duopoly in Washington. The only difference is that corruption in the American system has been institutionalised so much that what is considered corruption in the rest of the world is just "lobbying" in Washington parlance.

Russia is here to stay. They are a strong society that have in the past absorbed hard knocks and come back in spectacular fashion. They will be around even in 2117 when even USA might not exist in its current form.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
salttee
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Re: R u s s i a

Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:34 am

BawliBooch wrote:
More than Putin, it is some strategists in the West who are furious that Russia hasn't just withered away like they had hoped. Instead with Putin in charge, Russia has renewed itself for the new century and once again emerged on the world stage as a major player. This has led to some furious hand-wringing in western capitals.

Is Putin and his cabal corrupt? For sure! But certainly no more or less than the corrupt Democrat-Republican duopoly in Washington. The only difference is that corruption in the American system has been institutionalised so much that what is considered corruption in the rest of the world is just "lobbying" in Washington parlance.

Russia is here to stay. They are a strong society that have in the past absorbed hard knocks and come back in spectacular fashion. They will be around even in 2117 when even USA might not exist in its current form.

I've gotta give you credit BawliBooch, that's some densely packed meaningless gibberish.
You have talent, I believe you could nave a career ahead of you writing late night TV commercials.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: R u s s i a

Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:14 am

salttee wrote:
I've gotta give you credit BawliBooch, that's some densely packed meaningless gibberish.

What part of my comment was "gibberish"? The part about Russia once again emerging as a world power? Or the corrupt to the core system in Washington?

But considering your stand on #CrookedHillary.....!

salttee wrote:
You have talent, I believe you could nave a career ahead of you writing late night TV commercials.

When people run out of arguments, they often turn to personal attacks. I am afraid I cant sink to that level.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
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Dutchy
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Re: R u s s i a

Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:33 am

BawliBooch wrote:
More than Putin, it is some strategists in the West who are furious that Russia hasn't just withered away like they had hoped. Instead with Putin in charge, Russia has renewed itself for the new century and once again emerged on the world stage as a major player. This has led to some furious hand-wringing in western capitals.

Is Putin and his cabal corrupt? For sure! But certainly no more or less than the corrupt Democrat-Republican duopoly in Washington. The only difference is that corruption in the American system has been institutionalised so much that what is considered corruption in the rest of the world is just "lobbying" in Washington parlance.

Russia is here to stay. They are a strong society that have in the past absorbed hard knocks and come back in spectacular fashion. They will be around even in 2117 when even USA might not exist in its current form.


Two point:
- A prime example of whataboutism, look at America and their lobby industry which everybody hates, so nicely played. Putin is an autocrat and has been corrupt, personal ever since he was working in St. Petersburg and protected the mare for his corruption with western aid to the people there and since then in spectacular fashion on par with African leaders. Putin uses the Russian state as his own property, leaves corruption alone if the oligarch is willing to support him, or thrown into prison and stripped of all the money if not. Real opposition is dealt with a prison sentence or in extreme cases: death. Russian media isn't free. Justice system isn't free. No Russia isn't at par with America, Russia is a very corrupt autocratic society with nationalistic tendencies.

- "it is some strategists in the West who are furious that Russia hasn't just withered away like they had hoped" Who are those, name 3 please. If you look at what was actually said in those days, please hoped that Russia became a truly democratic society and was included in the world, instead it now is more or less a rogue state with tendencies to destabilize its neighbors and beyond. "Once again emerged on the world stage as a major player" yes it has, in a very negative way, just as North Korea is a major player. Russia is once again a regional power, not a major player at the world stage which truly influences where the world is heading to. EU, China, and America are that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: R u s s i a

Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:54 am

BawliBooch wrote:
What part of my comment was "gibberish"?


I agree, it was not gibberish, it was layered with propaganda technics, well tested in the old Soviet Union.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: R u s s i a

Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:13 am

salttee wrote:
I've gotta give you credit BawliBooch, that's some densely packed meaningless gibberish.
You have talent, I believe you could nave a career ahead of you writing late night TV commercials.


I get the impression you lack the basic requirement for a traditional critic: Actually understanding what you are criticizing.

Now the "Modern Critic" doesn't have that requirement at all. Fully sufficient to have at an agenda today. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
salttee
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Re: R u s s i a

Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
it was not gibberish

If this stuff isn't gibberish, what is?
some strategists in the West who are furious that Russia hasn't just withered away like they had hoped.
Strawman is too kind of a description for this.
Russia has renewed itself for the new century and once again emerged on the world stage as a major player.
Emerged as a military threat to its neighbors is a better description. Economically Russia barely beats out Spain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... P_(nominal)
This has led to some furious hand-wringing in western capitals.
Hand wringing in Bawly's mind
Is Putin and his cabal corrupt? For sure! But certainly no more or less than the corrupt Democrat-Republican duopoly in Washington.
Russia is and always has been notoriously corrupt.
Russia is here to stay.
Russia has the largest land mass of any nation and is under no threat from anyone - so yea, I guess they are here to stay.
They are a strong society that have in the past absorbed hard knocks and come back in spectacular fashion.
Yea, that molotov ribbentrop pact didn't work out so good, and neither did that communism thing.
They will be around even in 2117 when even USA might not exist in its current form.
Another Bawli strawman?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: R u s s i a

Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:55 pm

salttee wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
it was not gibberish

If this stuff isn't gibberish, what is?


It is far worse than gibberish, it is propaganda.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: R u s s i a

Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:11 am

LMP737 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
That is what the Russian administration and Putin do not want - the shitdisturbing west causing destruction and destabilization anywhere they go which then breeds Islamic militants which then causes us problems near our borders and in our country (Russia has a significant Muslim population).


Why do you think Chechens seem to turn up in every corner of the globe? Places like Grozny and Katyr Yurt ring a bell? I'm sure you'll blame it on the west though. Now that Russia is fully involved in Syria they are not neck deep in it so welcome to the club.

Why do Americans, Germans, Canadians, Russians and so on turn up in every corner of the globe?
I will be the first to admit and have actually wrote before on this forum that the Chechen mess back in the 90's was completely the fault of Russia and dumbass Yeltsin's handling of the situation. Everything that could be done wrong was, from political to military. Complete and utter embarassment.

But look at Chechnya and Grozny now. GRV is my favourite layover in Russia, made friends there and vacationed with my wife and kids this summer. Clean, beautiful and safe city. Only downside I found is that you can't even buy beer in the evening due to the strict alchohol restrictions.

Syria? Well not so neck deep in the same mess as the west in all their little invasions. Look here, President Bashar Assad, the internationally recognized head of Syria appealed to the Russian Federation for direct military assistance and asked for Russia to put boots on the ground. Do you recall that happening in Iraq or Libya? Moreover look at the result. After two years of military operations in Syria, which was already war torn the Russian Armed Forces have stabilized the situation on the ground, are close to driving out ISIS and restoring peace to a war torn country. Compare this to the west where you guys went in to more or less stable countries, created civil wars and gave birth to Islamic extremism. (Which then spilled over into Syria, where we now have to clean up the mess you idiots made out of nothing.)

LMP737 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
As far as Russian interference into U.S. elections go - awesome. I see absolutely nothing wrong with interfering in the internal affairs of the one country in the World that has interfered at one time or another in the internal affairs of pretty much every other country in the World.
Hats off to whoever planned that one and pulled it off


And it's worked out so well for Putin and his gang. Congress has basically tied Trumps hands when it comes to sanctions. More worrisome for little Jimmy Putin is the situation in North Korea. Answer this one for me, are the chances for war more or less likely since Trump took office? If it were to break out North Koreans are not going to come flooding across the border into the US. They'll start crossing into Russia.

I would say it worked out pretty well for "Putin and his gang". I am not going to lie and tell you that I knew what they were planning, but helping the US elect a President that cannot get anything done due to disagreements within his own government and within his own party (wow) has created quite a mess in the US. Plus increased divisions in the American public. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Russian Intelligence services that leaked the information about Trump's ties to Russia for this exact reason! :rotfl:
Trust me, getting rid of these sanctions is not in Russia's interests right now for many reasons and going through all the trouble to influence US elections isn't worth it. I would go as far as to say that if sanctions were cancelled tomorrow it would do more harm than good for Russia overall.

Not too worried about North Korea. Yes, Trump is a bit on the insane side. But he is also a showman, an actor. He is not an idiot. I also heavily doubt that DPRK will launch any first strike. In my view, what is happening now is just a show for internal consumption. Sabre rattling by Trump to show Americans he is not a pussy and Kim with the usual rhetoric for the same reason but for the North Koreans.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: R u s s i a

Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:36 am

tu204 wrote:
Why do Americans, Germans, Canadians, Russians and so on turn up in every corner of the globe?
I will be the first to admit and have actually wrote before on this forum that the Chechen mess back in the 90's was completely the fault of Russia and dumbass Yeltsin's handling of the situation. Everything that could be done wrong was, from political to military. Complete and utter embarassment.


Do Russian turn up in every corner of the globe? Besides the Middle east only in countries just ajacent to them.
Yes, Chechnya, luckily Putin could put himself in the forefront after the flat bombings in Moscow (probably organized by the FSB). After that Putin could send in the military and bombed the hell out of them and that's why he was known by the Russian electorate so he could get himself elected.

tu204 wrote:
But look at Chechnya and Grozny now. GRV is my favourite layover in Russia, made friends there and vacationed with my wife and kids this summer. Clean, beautiful and safe city. Only downside I found is that you can't even buy beer in the evening due to the strict alchohol restrictions.

Well done Putin to put in a dictator in there whom he can control: Ramzan Kadyrov. I would recommend reading about him. And I do hope he has found his cat again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5ri68tDZ0Q

tu204 wrote:
Syria? Well not so neck deep in the same mess as the west in all their little invasions. Look here, President Bashar Assad, the internationally recognized head of Syria appealed to the Russian Federation for direct military assistance and asked for Russia to put boots on the ground. Do you recall that happening in Iraq or Libya? Moreover look at the result. After two years of military operations in Syria, which was already war torn the Russian Armed Forces have stabilized the situation on the ground, are close to driving out ISIS and restoring peace to a war torn country. Compare this to the west where you guys went in to more or less stable countries, created civil wars and gave birth to Islamic extremism. (Which then spilled over into Syria, where we now have to clean up the mess you idiots made out of nothing.)


Ah yes. Syria. First: President Bashar Assad, the internationally recognized head of Syria, but is he? The United States, the European Union, and the majority of the Arab League called for Assad's resignation and don't recognize him as the Syrian leader anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... al_Council

I agree that America should never have invaded Iraq in 2003, the world was against it and yes it was the main reason ISIS exist, America did everything wrong in Iraq. As for Syria, when a group of teenagers had written revolutionary slogans on the wall of a school in Syria, security forces shot the boys death. Thousands of people went into the streets of the capital Damascus to express their dissatisfaction with the government of President Bashar al-Assad.

The demonstrators demanded the resignation of their president, the release of thousands of political prisoners and an end to corruption in the country. Sounds reasonable demands right? The response of President Bashar Assad: shooting the protesters and a civil war was born. Now Russia has indeed been the decisive factor in the Syrian civil war when Assad forces were only in control of a small portion of Syria, Putin stepped in and put things in favor of Assad. Pretty smart too, let ISIS be dealt with the western coalition and in the meantime crush the rest of the opposition and only now goes after ISIS.

So your version of this is a typical Russian propaganda response, omitting some pretty basic and damming things and only focus on the "winning". But given the current situation, Bashar al Assad, accused of war crimes, will probably have to continue to play a role in Syria. So Putin got his way and continue to have a friend in the Middle East and his harbor.

But tell me, what is it, International recognition is valid? I agree, but than you must favor: Russia getting the hell out of Crimea (nobody recognizes that) and stop meddling with Georgia and Ukraine. Kuddos for you seeing the light. Typical Russian propaganda response. So be careful with that kind of statement, because in the end it will come back to bite you.

tu204 wrote:
I would say it worked out pretty well for "Putin and his gang". I am not going to lie and tell you that I knew what they were planning, but helping the US elect a President that cannot get anything done due to disagreements within his own government and within his own party (wow) has created quite a mess in the US. Plus increased divisions in the American public. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Russian Intelligence services that leaked the information about Trump's ties to Russia for this exact reason! :rotfl:
Trust me, getting rid of these sanctions is not in Russia's interests right now for many reasons and going through all the trouble to influence US elections isn't worth it. I would go as far as to say that if sanctions were cancelled tomorrow it would do more harm than good for Russia overall.

Not too worried about North Korea. Yes, Trump is a bit on the insane side. But he is also a showman, an actor. He is not an idiot. I also heavily doubt that DPRK will launch any first strike. In my view, what is happening now is just a show for internal consumption. Sabre rattling by Trump to show Americans he is not a pussy and Kim with the usual rhetoric for the same reason but for the North Koreans.


Yes, it worked out great for Putin, since he believes in win-lose and not win-win. So he needs America weak (and the EU for that matter) for him to "win". I don't subcribe to that point of view and would like to see the Russian people strong and have a good economy without corruption - ah well one can dream right.

Yes, sanctions are so good for Russia overall, such a bullsh!t, but please keep spreading this propaganda, it is at least entertaining. And don't worry, they will stay in place.

I like to end on a note of agreement, North Korea will not attack first.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: R u s s i a

Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:21 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Why do Americans, Germans, Canadians, Russians and so on turn up in every corner of the globe?
I will be the first to admit and have actually wrote before on this forum that the Chechen mess back in the 90's was completely the fault of Russia and dumbass Yeltsin's handling of the situation. Everything that could be done wrong was, from political to military. Complete and utter embarassment.


Do Russian turn up in every corner of the globe? Besides the Middle east only in countries just ajacent to them.
Yes, Chechnya, luckily Putin could put himself in the forefront after the flat bombings in Moscow (probably organized by the FSB). After that Putin could send in the military and bombed the hell out of them and that's why he was known by the Russian electorate so he could get himself elected.

Neither you nor I have any real information on the bombings in Moscow. So there is no real point to discuss that. I can make any wild statements about pretty much anything and we would be on par here.

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
But look at Chechnya and Grozny now. GRV is my favourite layover in Russia, made friends there and vacationed with my wife and kids this summer. Clean, beautiful and safe city. Only downside I found is that you can't even buy beer in the evening due to the strict alchohol restrictions.

Well done Putin to put in a dictator in there whom he can control: Ramzan Kadyrov. I would recommend reading about him. And I do hope he has found his cat again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5ri68tDZ0Q

Yeah. Well done. In 10 years turning a wreck of republic into one of the most beautiful and safest in Russia actually is one hell of an achievement. Might I add that the west hasn't come close to that since the end of WW2. (Usually quite the opposite actually, making a wreck out of some place that was functional).
I don't really care if he found his cat or not and he isn't the best public speaker, but Kadyrov has done one hell of a job for Chechnya.

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Syria? Well not so neck deep in the same mess as the west in all their little invasions. Look here, President Bashar Assad, the internationally recognized head of Syria appealed to the Russian Federation for direct military assistance and asked for Russia to put boots on the ground. Do you recall that happening in Iraq or Libya? Moreover look at the result. After two years of military operations in Syria, which was already war torn the Russian Armed Forces have stabilized the situation on the ground, are close to driving out ISIS and restoring peace to a war torn country. Compare this to the west where you guys went in to more or less stable countries, created civil wars and gave birth to Islamic extremism. (Which then spilled over into Syria, where we now have to clean up the mess you idiots made out of nothing.)


Ah yes. Syria. First: President Bashar Assad, the internationally recognized head of Syria, but is he? The United States, the European Union, and the majority of the Arab League called for Assad's resignation and don't recognize him as the Syrian leader anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... al_Council

I agree that America should never have invaded Iraq in 2003, the world was against it and yes it was the main reason ISIS exist, America did everything wrong in Iraq. As for Syria, when a group of teenagers had written revolutionary slogans on the wall of a school in Syria, security forces shot the boys death. Thousands of people went into the streets of the capital Damascus to express their dissatisfaction with the government of President Bashar al-Assad.

The demonstrators demanded the resignation of their president, the release of thousands of political prisoners and an end to corruption in the country. Sounds reasonable demands right? The response of President Bashar Assad: shooting the protesters and a civil war was born. Now Russia has indeed been the decisive factor in the Syrian civil war when Assad forces were only in control of a small portion of Syria, Putin stepped in and put things in favor of Assad. Pretty smart too, let ISIS be dealt with the western coalition and in the meantime crush the rest of the opposition and only now goes after ISIS.

So your version of this is a typical Russian propaganda response, omitting some pretty basic and damming things and only focus on the "winning". But given the current situation, Bashar al Assad, accused of war crimes, will probably have to continue to play a role in Syria. So Putin got his way and continue to have a friend in the Middle East and his harbor.

But tell me, what is it, International recognition is valid? I agree, but than you must favor: Russia getting the hell out of Crimea (nobody recognizes that) and stop meddling with Georgia and Ukraine. Kuddos for you seeing the light. Typical Russian propaganda response. So be careful with that kind of statement, because in the end it will come back to bite you.

Please read your own Wikipedia link. Out of the 27 countries that "recognise" the Syrian "national council" only a handfull actually recognise them as the sole authority. Hell, even Russia is on that list because of "informal relations".

So what we had was the representatives of Syria ask Russia to come in and help them out. We did.
Which is much more than the west has done since Vietnam. Yes, for the sake of this argument I will accept that the South Vietnamese did ask for some sort of assistance. What we have now is a country that didn't go further into shit because of western meddling. I wish we had done the same in Iraq and Libya.

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I would say it worked out pretty well for "Putin and his gang". I am not going to lie and tell you that I knew what they were planning, but helping the US elect a President that cannot get anything done due to disagreements within his own government and within his own party (wow) has created quite a mess in the US. Plus increased divisions in the American public. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Russian Intelligence services that leaked the information about Trump's ties to Russia for this exact reason! :rotfl:
Trust me, getting rid of these sanctions is not in Russia's interests right now for many reasons and going through all the trouble to influence US elections isn't worth it. I would go as far as to say that if sanctions were cancelled tomorrow it would do more harm than good for Russia overall.

Not too worried about North Korea. Yes, Trump is a bit on the insane side. But he is also a showman, an actor. He is not an idiot. I also heavily doubt that DPRK will launch any first strike. In my view, what is happening now is just a show for internal consumption. Sabre rattling by Trump to show Americans he is not a pussy and Kim with the usual rhetoric for the same reason but for the North Koreans.


Yes, it worked out great for Putin, since he believes in win-lose and not win-win. So he needs America weak (and the EU for that matter) for him to "win". I don't subcribe to that point of view and would like to see the Russian people strong and have a good economy without corruption - ah well one can dream right.

I like to end on a note of agreement, North Korea will not attack first.


I won't argue that Putin believes in win-lose. Because that is the exact same approach that the west persued with Russia before. So absolutely nothing wrong with that. You guys don't want to play fair and play along, then it will be a win-lose scenario with you guys on the losing end.

Dutchy wrote:
Yes, sanctions are so good for Russia overall, such a bullsh!t, but please keep spreading this propaganda, it is at least entertaining. And don't worry, they will stay in place.

In 3 years Russia is now one of the leading producers of grain, production of everything else to do with agriculture is seing growth in double digits industrial production is rising. Yeah, I would say it's working quite well.
You can of course believe the bullshit propaganda your media and politicians are feeding you though that Russia's economy is in devestated, or whatever is is Obama said two years ago. :hissyfit:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: R u s s i a

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:53 pm

tu204 wrote:
Neither you nor I have any real information on the bombings in Moscow. So there is no real point to discuss that. I can make any wild statements about pretty much anything and we would be on par here.


Nope, proven that the unexploded bomb was planted by the FSB, sure they said it was a training, but a live bomb in an occupied apartment building when a number of others did indeed explode. That is factual information. So Putin is having appearances against him. What it isn't is a wild claim, because there is some substance to it.

tu204 wrote:
Yeah. Well done. In 10 years turning a wreck of republic into one of the most beautiful and safest in Russia actually is one hell of an achievement. Might I add that the west hasn't come close to that since the end of WW2. (Usually quite the opposite actually, making a wreck out of some place that was functional).
I don't really care if he found his cat or not and he isn't the best public speaker, but Kadyrov has done one hell of a job for Chechnya.


The DDR was also the safest place on earth as is North Korea. Point being it isn't a free society but a repressive one, but just go there and have a great time.
Second part: whataboutism and the west don't want a repressive regime. And your statement isn't true either.

tu204 wrote:
Please read your own Wikipedia link. Out of the 27 countries that "recognise" the Syrian "national council" only a handfull actually recognise them as the sole authority. Hell, even Russia is on that list because of "informal relations".

So what we had was the representatives of Syria ask Russia to come in and help them out. We did.
Which is much more than the west has done since Vietnam. Yes, for the sake of this argument I will accept that the South Vietnamese did ask for some sort of assistance. What we have now is a country that didn't go further into shit because of western meddling. I wish we had done the same in Iraq and Libya.


You forgot to answer this one: But tell me, what is it, International recognition is valid? Crimea is from Ukraine, not many countries recognize Russia's annexation. You can't have both, my friend.

Ukraine asked the west to help them, should they do that? Georgia asked for it, should they do that?

Assad has lost any authority when he started shooting at his people and all human right violations. Of course, Russia doesn't care, it voted a resolution down in the UNSC to continue to investigate the use of chemical weapons. So yes, since you are so enthusiastic about Kadyrov, I can imagine that you also like Assad.

http://www.thehagueinstituteforglobalju ... nd-R2P.pdf

tu204 wrote:
I won't argue that Putin believes in win-lose. Because that is the exact same approach that the west persued with Russia before. So absolutely nothing wrong with that. You guys don't want to play fair and play along, then it will be a win-lose scenario with you guys on the losing end.


Oh please, oh Russia is so pathetic and the big western countries only want to bully them, so sad for mother Russia. It is bullshit, your country was robbed by the same people whom are in power, not western companies. But if that is the case, well f*ck Russia, but I hope they will turn around and do want a win-win.

tu204 wrote:
In 3 years Russia is now one of the leading producers of grain, production of everything else to do with agriculture is seing growth in double digits industrial production is rising. Yeah, I would say it's working quite well.
You can of course believe the bullshit propaganda your media and politicians are feeding you though that Russia's economy is in devestated, or whatever is is Obama said two years ago. :hissyfit:


Same propaganda, good for the Russian farmers, yes, but not so good for Russian citizens and the middle class.

Please continue to spread your propaganda, it is entertaining.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: R u s s i a

Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:06 pm

Dutchy wrote:

The DDR was also the safest place on earth as is North Korea. Point being it isn't a free society but a repressive one, but just go there and have a great time.
Second part: whataboutism and the west don't want a repressive regime. And your statement isn't true either.

I think the point is to live in a safe place with good infrastructure with oppertunities as something much more important than some made up "freedoms". The majority of Chechens would agree as they are free to leave Chechnya for other Russian regions or leave the country alltogether.
Problem with you is that you don't even have a grasp on the ethnic issues in Chechnya. They are a clan based society and on top of that are heavily religious. If the authorities let their guard down that place will become a mess again. So the status quo is much better than any other alternative. Both for Chechens and also for their neighbours.

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Please read your own Wikipedia link. Out of the 27 countries that "recognise" the Syrian "national council" only a handfull actually recognise them as the sole authority. Hell, even Russia is on that list because of "informal relations".

So what we had was the representatives of Syria ask Russia to come in and help them out. We did.
Which is much more than the west has done since Vietnam. Yes, for the sake of this argument I will accept that the South Vietnamese did ask for some sort of assistance. What we have now is a country that didn't go further into shit because of western meddling. I wish we had done the same in Iraq and Libya.


You forgot to answer this one: But tell me, what is it, International recognition is valid? Crimea is from Ukraine, not many countries recognize Russia's annexation. You can't have both, my friend.

Ukraine asked the west to help them, should they do that? Georgia asked for it, should they do that?

Actually I don't really care about "international recognition", because anyone can change the rules on what they consider "international" and "recognition". For example how you tried to spin it so that it appears that Assad has no "international recognition" based on a few countries' full recognition and some "unofficial ties" with whoever the opposition in Syria is.
I see it as more important to what the local population wants. Syria is a tough case as it is pretty divided. However I am still sure that our guys did the right thing by putting boots on the ground and in two years time brought stability to the country and pretty much took care of the ISIS problem.

As far as Ukraine or Georgia goes, again, I don't really care. The west can bring forces in to Georgia and Ukraine. They can parade around Kiev and Tbilisi all they want. I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to invade Crimea or Abkhazia or South Ossetia though.

Dutchy wrote:
Of course, Russia doesn't care, it voted a resolution down in the UNSC to continue to investigate the use of chemical weapons.

http://www.thehagueinstituteforglobalju ... nd-R2P.pdf


You sound like an honest guy, but the options here are:
1) You are trying to be misleading on purpose and take everyone reading your post to be an idiot by spreading propaganda.
or
2) You have been mislead yourself and are spreading misinformation and propaganda here.
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017 ... probe.html

Let me elaborate:
There were two UN SC resolutions, one by the US and one by the Russian Federation. Both were vetoed by each other on the same day.

The US resolution was to prolong the mandate of the inspectors in Syria.

The Russian one was to change the mandate. One of the specific changes was to have inspectors actually go out in the field to personally see what they were inspecting and not rely on hell-knows-what information from hell-knows-who. Do you find that to be so unreasonable? Do you for instance think it would be ok for your local police department to remotely investigate for example if someone breaks into your house?

So to retain any credibility you now have to say that:
The US doesn't care because they voted a resolution down in the UN SC. Or, you can also make a statement like: Both Russia and the US are behaving like children by voting down each other's resolutions instead of sitting down at a bar and work out the differences to write up a resolution both of them can agree on.

I will accept either of these statements from you, or a variation but with the same meaning.

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I won't argue that Putin believes in win-lose. Because that is the exact same approach that the west persued with Russia before. So absolutely nothing wrong with that. You guys don't want to play fair and play along, then it will be a win-lose scenario with you guys on the losing end.


Oh please, oh Russia is so pathetic and the big western countries only want to bully them, so sad for mother Russia. It is bullshit, your country was robbed by the same people whom are in power, not western companies. But if that is the case, well f*ck Russia, but I hope they will turn around and do want a win-win.


Hey, I am all for win-win. But it doesn't seem the west is ready or willing. Starting from the expansion of NATO after the reason for NATO being there (Soviet Union) ceased to exsist. Untill then it looks like both parties are going to try to play towards a win-lose situation with the respective party trying to be on the "win" side.

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
In 3 years Russia is now one of the leading producers of grain, production of everything else to do with agriculture is seing growth in double digits industrial production is rising. Yeah, I would say it's working quite well.
You can of course believe the bullshit propaganda your media and politicians are feeding you though that Russia's economy is in devestated, or whatever is is Obama said two years ago. :hissyfit:


Same propaganda, good for the Russian farmers, yes, but not so good for Russian citizens and the middle class.

Actually as a middle class Russian citizen I couldn't give a rat's ass that some millionaires cannot get US/EU visas or hold bank accounts there. And I also don't care that I cannot buy groceries from the EU since that fact in particular is helping out local farmers.

Dutchy wrote:
Please continue to spread your propaganda, it is entertaining.

And you can continue to spread yours. It amuses me to see how far from the truth you are, however you truly seem to believe on what is going on in Russia. Exact same as your politicans and analysts, which is why they are not getting anywhere in their dealings with Russia.
Pretty cool.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
LMP737
Posts: 5304
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: R u s s i a

Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:36 pm

tu204 wrote:

Why do Americans, Germans, Canadians, Russians and so on turn up in every corner of the globe?.
.


Germans and Canadians turn up at every corner of the globe? That's probably news to Germans and Canadians.

tu204 wrote:
I will be the first to admit and have actually wrote before on this forum that the Chechen mess back in the 90's was completely the fault of Russia and dumbass Yeltsin's handling of the situation. Everything that could be done wrong was, from political to military. Complete and utter embarassment

Then Putin added fuel to the fire.

tu204 wrote:
But look at Chechnya and Grozny now. GRV is my favourite layover in Russia, made friends there and vacationed with my wife and kids this summer. Clean, beautiful and safe city. Only downside I found is that you can't even buy beer in the evening due to the strict alchohol restrictions.


A lot of urban renewal probably helped. Just be careful what you say and don't get caught listening to the Village People.

tu204 wrote:
Syria? Well not so neck deep in the same mess as the west in all their little invasions.


Trust me, you are neck deep in it now. Assad does not have power to defeat the opposition on his own because his forces have been depleted. That leaves Putin a choice. Leave and have things go sideways for Assad or stay.

tu204 wrote:
Look here, President Bashar Assad, the internationally recognized head of Syria appealed to the Russian Federation for direct military assistance and asked for Russia to put boots on the ground.


:lol: Yup, that's how it starts! Didn't you guys say the same thing about Afghanistan? As for Assad isn't he the guy who used chemical weapons on his own people?

tu204 wrote:
After two years of military operations in Syria, which was already war torn the Russian Armed Forces have stabilized the situation on the ground, are close to driving out ISIS and restoring peace to a war torn country.


You're killing me dude!!! As an American I've heard this sort of talk before so trust me when I say don't believe the hype. And by the way don't try and pretend Russia single handedly drove ISIS out.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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BawliBooch
Posts: 854
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:24 am

Re: R u s s i a

Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:20 am

After reading through some of the responses here, I think I now have a better perspective on how Trump managed to win in the US! :)

It is nobody's case that Russia is a beacon of honesty or democracy. Far from it. The "Medvedev model" of corruption is well embedded in Russian society. But its asinine to take the position that America is much better than Russia when it comes to corruption. Marginally better? Sure! But can anyone really make the case that oligarchies dont exist here? Come on now!

Where America scores is that they still have a free judiciary and a relatively free media, though the limits of that are being severely tested with the new Trump regime. The next 2 years are crucial for American democracy. Americans need to stand firm to protect their institutions that form the foundation of their democracy.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4021
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Re: R u s s i a

Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:29 am

BawliBooch wrote:
It is nobody's case that Russia is a beacon of honesty or democracy. Far from it. The "Medvedev model" of corruption is well embedded in Russian society. But its asinine to take the position that America is much better than Russia when it comes to corruption. Marginally better? Sure! But can anyone really make the case that oligarchies dont exist here? Come on now!


Ok, again whataboutism and that is dangerous. It is the Putin model of corruption, why name it after Medvedev is beyond me, give the man credit for his massive achievement. Putin is thé man, not Medvedev, Medvedev is a puppet.

Russia at 131 (next to Ukraine, how ironic) and America 18. I know, transparency is a bitch when it comes to whataboutism, but there you have it.
Marginally better? No way, day and night better, they aren't in the same league.

https://www.transparency.org/news/featu ... index_2016

Oligarchs in Russia are at the controls, with the upper oligarch in the Kremlin for the past 18 years, in the US it is far more indirect influence, see the difference there? And indeed, the justice system and the media are still without direct government control, in Russia, they are in the pockets of the Kremlin. So again not in the same league. So yes the case can be made quite easily and that begs the question, where are you from?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: R u s s i a

Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:07 am

tu204 wrote:
I think the point is to live in a safe place with good infrastructure with oppertunities as something much more important than some made up "freedoms". The majority of Chechens would agree as they are free to leave Chechnya for other Russian regions or leave the country alltogether.
Problem with you is that you don't even have a grasp on the ethnic issues in Chechnya. They are a clan based society and on top of that are heavily religious. If the authorities let their guard down that place will become a mess again. So the status quo is much better than any other alternative. Both for Chechens and also for their neighbours.


Really "freedoms" between quotes? I, for one, rather live in a free society than a totalitarian one where you have to be afraid of the government if you don't follow the party lines. The Chechnian "leader" is definitely not someone whom gives a rat's ass about human rights. But heck, you and your family are save and can vacation there, so why would you care?

tu204 wrote:
Actually I don't really care about "international recognition", because anyone can change the rules on what they consider "international" and "recognition". For example how you tried to spin it so that it appears that Assad has no "international recognition" based on a few countries' full recognition and some "unofficial ties" with whoever the opposition in Syria is.
I see it as more important to what the local population wants. Syria is a tough case as it is pretty divided. However I am still sure that our guys did the right thing by putting boots on the ground and in two years time brought stability to the country and pretty much took care of the ISIS problem.

As far as Ukraine or Georgia goes, again, I don't really care. The west can bring forces in to Georgia and Ukraine. They can parade around Kiev and Tbilisi all they want. I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to invade Crimea or Abkhazia or South Ossetia though.


Ah ok, so you don't care about international recognition, you brought it up, you gave it as the argument why your supreme leader was right to intervene and now you don't care because your bluff was called out. Funny how these arguments can be fluent for you so it can morph in any way or shape so that it fits your beliefs and the world vision of Russia. Thanks for showing us so clearly. And no, international recognition is something which you can see in the media: many world leaders said that Assad has lost his authority to govern and how many countries have still diplomatic ties with the Assad regime?

"I see it as more important to what the local population wants." auch, Chechynia comes to mind, they didn't want to be under Russia control, see what happened there. Syrian people rebelled against Assad, Russia came to his aid. And I seriously doubt, if Siberian people truly want to break away from the Russian Federation, you would applaud it. ISIS was mainly dealt with from the Western alliance, don't let Russia get the credit for that. Russia and the Assad regime chose to attack everyone except ISIS and only after they defeated the rest, now they turn to ISIS. A prime example of how distorted your view of reality is.

Yes, Putin's Russia did obtain Crimea or Abkhazia or South Ossetia illegally and they are there to stay. So no one will recognize it, sanctions will be in place but no one will ever go and fight for it, not important enough. So the bully tactic worked in these cases and just showed to the rest of the world what kind of rogue country Russia is.

tu204 wrote:
You sound like an honest guy, but the options here are:
1) You are trying to be misleading on purpose and take everyone reading your post to be an idiot by spreading propaganda.
or
2) You have been mislead yourself and are spreading misinformation and propaganda here.
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017 ... probe.html

Let me elaborate:
There were two UN SC resolutions, one by the US and one by the Russian Federation. Both were vetoed by each other on the same day.

The US resolution was to prolong the mandate of the inspectors in Syria.

The Russian one was to change the mandate. One of the specific changes was to have inspectors actually go out in the field to personally see what they were inspecting and not rely on hell-knows-what information from hell-knows-who. Do you find that to be so unreasonable? Do you for instance think it would be ok for your local police department to remotely investigate for example if someone breaks into your house?

So to retain any credibility you now have to say that:
The US doesn't care because they voted a resolution down in the UN SC. Or, you can also make a statement like: Both Russia and the US are behaving like children by voting down each other's resolutions instead of sitting down at a bar and work out the differences to write up a resolution both of them can agree on.

I will accept either of these statements from you, or a variation but with the same meaning.


Haha, so you give me a sort of complement and than you give me a false dilemma. Funny kind of debating style you have.

"It rejected the United States draft on extending the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons‑United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism due to a permanent member’s veto in a vote of 11 in favour to 2 against (Bolivia, Russian Federation), with 2 abstaining (China, Egypt). Had the draft been adopted, it would have extended the Mechanism — established by resolution 2235 (2015) and set to expire on 17 November — for a further one year.

The Russian Federation’s draft was rejected after that delegation first submitted and then withdrew it by 4 votes in favour (Bolivia, China, Kazakhstan, Russian Federation) to 7 against (France, Italy, Sweden, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States and Uruguay), with 4 abstaining (Egypt, Ethiopia, Japan and Senegal). It would have welcomed the “full and profound cooperation” extended by the Government of Syria to the Mechanism and the fact‑finding mission, the other entity investigating the chemical attacks." https://www.un.org/press/en/2017/sc13072.doc.htm

What you failed to mention is a couple of things. `US resolution were more members in favor then the Russian one. And more importantly, Russia wanted the Syrian government to be involved in a fact-finding mission for the use of chemical weapons by all parties involved, including the same Syrian government.

So I will choose option number three, Russia wanted to whitewash the Syrian government with their resolution and most members were against that. And guess what, I understand and I think it is a good thing for one of the suspects not getting involved in the investigation in one way or the other. And Russia has a long history in this conflict to protect the Assad regime and they will continue to do so. I guess you are all for that.

tu204 wrote:
Hey, I am all for win-win. But it doesn't seem the west is ready or willing. Starting from the expansion of NATO after the reason for NATO being there (Soviet Union) ceased to exsist. Untill then it looks like both parties are going to try to play towards a win-lose situation with the respective party trying to be on the "win" side.

I seriously doubt you are for the win-win. And don't blame it on the west and thus victimising Putin's Russia, you want Russia to be a proud nation again right? And there you have it, you want NATO gone? Why, it has nothing to do with Russia? Aren't countries free to organize themselves in any way they want? Nobody want to attack Russia, the other way around, may be as we have seen in 3 cases.

tu204 wrote:
Actually as a middle class Russian citizen I couldn't give a rat's ass that some millionaires cannot get US/EU visas or hold bank accounts there. And I also don't care that I cannot buy groceries from the EU since that fact in particular is helping out local farmers.


Do you know the difference between median and average? The average wealth is in Russia higher than in India, the median wealth isn't. Telling right? Do you care about that? Does the middle class care about that? And they are not millionaires, they are billionaires, with money stolen from the Russian people, do you care about that? Does the middle class care about that?

Dutchy wrote:
And you can continue to spread yours. It amuses me to see how far from the truth you are, however you truly seem to believe on what is going on in Russia. Exact same as your politicans and analysts, which is why they are not getting anywhere in their dealings with Russia.
Pretty cool.


I truly see and everyone can see, what Russia is up too in the world and I believe in numbers and I believe I am far more objective about your home country, than you are.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1532
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: R u s s i a

Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I think the point is to live in a safe place with good infrastructure with oppertunities as something much more important than some made up "freedoms". The majority of Chechens would agree as they are free to leave Chechnya for other Russian regions or leave the country alltogether.
Problem with you is that you don't even have a grasp on the ethnic issues in Chechnya. They are a clan based society and on top of that are heavily religious. If the authorities let their guard down that place will become a mess again. So the status quo is much better than any other alternative. Both for Chechens and also for their neighbours.


Really "freedoms" between quotes? I, for one, rather live in a free society than a totalitarian one where you have to be afraid of the government if you don't follow the party lines. The Chechnian "leader" is definitely not someone whom gives a rat's ass about human rights. But heck, you and your family are save and can vacation there, so why would you care?


Well I guess we will just disagree here then. As someone that grew up and untill recently lived in Canada, I really do not see any difference in any freedoms.
Furthermore, people in Russia are quicker to speak their minds on political terms, be it for or against the current government.
Now try in Canada to speak out against the stupid immigration/refugee policies and you will see what I mean. Speak out against other bullshit PC subject and well you get the point...

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Actually I don't really care about "international recognition", because anyone can change the rules on what they consider "international" and "recognition". For example how you tried to spin it so that it appears that Assad has no "international recognition" based on a few countries' full recognition and some "unofficial ties" with whoever the opposition in Syria is.
I see it as more important to what the local population wants. Syria is a tough case as it is pretty divided. However I am still sure that our guys did the right thing by putting boots on the ground and in two years time brought stability to the country and pretty much took care of the ISIS problem.

As far as Ukraine or Georgia goes, again, I don't really care. The west can bring forces in to Georgia and Ukraine. They can parade around Kiev and Tbilisi all they want. I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to invade Crimea or Abkhazia or South Ossetia though.



Yes, Putin's Russia did obtain Crimea or Abkhazia or South Ossetia illegally and they are there to stay. So no one will recognize it, sanctions will be in place but no one will ever go and fight for it, not important enough. So the bully tactic worked in these cases and just showed to the rest of the world what kind of rogue country Russia is.

Who obtained Abkhazia or South Ossetia? Get your head out of the sand. Even your bullshit OSCE fact mission stated that the dumbshit Sakashvilli started it.
Afterward the Georgians got their asses kicked and declared independence.

Before saying stupid shit, maybe you actually go there and speak to people there? Read a little bit on their history. As someone who has been to Abkhazia countless times and spoken to them I can tell you one thing - you are a goof to even believe that they are Georgia or will ever become part of Georgia again. Or even that they were ever rightfully a part of Georgia. That was a mistake and they corrected it.

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
You sound like an honest guy, but the options here are:
1) You are trying to be misleading on purpose and take everyone reading your post to be an idiot by spreading propaganda.
or
2) You have been mislead yourself and are spreading misinformation and propaganda here.
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017 ... probe.html

Let me elaborate:
There were two UN SC resolutions, one by the US and one by the Russian Federation. Both were vetoed by each other on the same day.

The US resolution was to prolong the mandate of the inspectors in Syria.

The Russian one was to change the mandate. One of the specific changes was to have inspectors actually go out in the field to personally see what they were inspecting and not rely on hell-knows-what information from hell-knows-who. Do you find that to be so unreasonable? Do you for instance think it would be ok for your local police department to remotely investigate for example if someone breaks into your house?

So to retain any credibility you now have to say that:
The US doesn't care because they voted a resolution down in the UN SC. Or, you can also make a statement like: Both Russia and the US are behaving like children by voting down each other's resolutions instead of sitting down at a bar and work out the differences to write up a resolution both of them can agree on.

I will accept either of these statements from you, or a variation but with the same meaning.


Haha, so you give me a sort of complement and than you give me a false dilemma. Funny kind of debating style you have.

"It rejected the United States draft on extending the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons‑United Nations Joint Investigative Mechanism due to a permanent member’s veto in a vote of 11 in favour to 2 against (Bolivia, Russian Federation), with 2 abstaining (China, Egypt). Had the draft been adopted, it would have extended the Mechanism — established by resolution 2235 (2015) and set to expire on 17 November — for a further one year.

The Russian Federation’s draft was rejected after that delegation first submitted and then withdrew it by 4 votes in favour (Bolivia, China, Kazakhstan, Russian Federation) to 7 against (France, Italy, Sweden, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United States and Uruguay), with 4 abstaining (Egypt, Ethiopia, Japan and Senegal). It would have welcomed the “full and profound cooperation” extended by the Government of Syria to the Mechanism and the fact‑finding mission, the other entity investigating the chemical attacks." https://www.un.org/press/en/2017/sc13072.doc.htm

What you failed to mention is a couple of things. `US resolution were more members in favor then the Russian one. And more importantly, Russia wanted the Syrian government to be involved in a fact-finding mission for the use of chemical weapons by all parties involved, including the same Syrian government.

So I will choose option number three, Russia wanted to whitewash the Syrian government with their resolution and most members were against that. And guess what, I understand and I think it is a good thing for one of the suspects not getting involved in the investigation in one way or the other. And Russia has a long history in this conflict to protect the Assad regime and they will continue to do so. I guess you are all for that.


Hey, whatever. You want to try to spin anything your way. Reality is that both parties are to blame here. It is beyond me how blinded by the bullshit propaganda force fed to you that you actually believe that your guys are little angels and share no blame here.

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Hey, I am all for win-win. But it doesn't seem the west is ready or willing. Starting from the expansion of NATO after the reason for NATO being there (Soviet Union) ceased to exsist. Untill then it looks like both parties are going to try to play towards a win-lose situation with the respective party trying to be on the "win" side.

I seriously doubt you are for the win-win. And don't blame it on the west and thus victimising Putin's Russia, you want Russia to be a proud nation again right? And there you have it, you want NATO gone? Why, it has nothing to do with Russia? Aren't countries free to organize themselves in any way they want? Nobody want to attack Russia, the other way around, may be as we have seen in 3 cases.


Then why the hell did NATO expand and the west kept on trying to interfere in Russia's internal affairs since 2000? Pretty stupid way of trying to gain trust. Your guys did everything possible to have Russia and Russians turn against the west. Enjoy the mess you guys made.


Dutchy wrote:
And you can continue to spread yours. It amuses me to see how far from the truth you are, however you truly seem to believe on what is going on in Russia. Exact same as your politicans and analysts, which is why they are not getting anywhere in their dealings with Russia.
Pretty cool.


I truly see and everyone can see, what Russia is up too in the world and I believe in numbers and I believe I am far more objective about your home country, than you are.[/quote]
Amazing how ignorant you are. It actually makes me think you may be outright trolling and cannot be that misguided or stupid to actually be serious with that statement.

But if you are, there is nothing to discuss further. I am telling you that I am looking at a wall and it is black, and you are somewhere far away and listening to someone that claims they are looking at the same wall and they say it is white...and you believe that someone and and tell me that I am blind. Well, you are about as bright as my cat. Thats a compliment by the way, my cat is really smart and can open doors and stuff ;)
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: R u s s i a

Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:31 pm

tu204 wrote:
Well I guess we will just disagree here then. As someone that grew up and untill recently lived in Canada, I really do not see any difference in any freedoms.
Furthermore, people in Russia are quicker to speak their minds on political terms, be it for or against the current government.
Now try in Canada to speak out against the stupid immigration/refugee policies and you will see what I mean. Speak out against other bullshit PC subject and well you get the point...


Are you Canadian? Or a Russian that has grew up in Cananda?


tu204 wrote:
Who obtained Abkhazia or South Ossetia? Get your head out of the sand. Even your bullshit OSCE fact mission stated that the dumbshit Sakashvilli started it.
Afterward the Georgians got their asses kicked and declared independence.

Before saying stupid shit, maybe you actually go there and speak to people there? Read a little bit on their history. As someone who has been to Abkhazia countless times and spoken to them I can tell you one thing - you are a goof to even believe that they are Georgia or will ever become part of Georgia again. Or even that they were ever rightfully a part of Georgia. That was a mistake and they corrected it.


Yes, the little green men, whom also saw action in Crimea and later Putin confessed they were regular Russian soldiers, whom helped, nothing to see there. And read up about it, it was an open war between Russia and Georgia, even cost the life of a Dutch journalist, whom was killed in Tbilisi, Russian still haven't answered for that one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

So the truth, Russia kicked Georgian's ass and now you have to separatistic "countries" whom aren't recognized by anyone and under defacto Putin Russia's control.

I don't care whom these areas share their legions to. What I do care about is the bullying by Russia and starting wars or destabilizing its neighbors. I do care about the international rule of law. I do care about the tribal warfare Russia is engaging itself in, which is so middle ages. If they want independence, whom am I to judge, I don't even have an opinion on that, how could I? If they want to separate themselves, fine, hold a truly free referendum, under the control of an independent international team.
But what Russia did in Abkhazia or South Ossetia was a dress rehearsal for Crimea and what they are doing right now in eastern Ukraine.

Oh, btw stop using anecdotal evidence and trying to look an authority on the subject, not working with me at all.

tu204 wrote:
Hey, whatever. You want to try to spin anything your way. Reality is that both parties are to blame here. It is beyond me how blinded by the bullshit propaganda force fed to you that you actually believe that your guys are little angels and share no blame here.


Nothing more to say about that? Don't put words in my mouth, I don't believe the west are little angels, I do believe Russia is helping out their pale Assad by not having a truly independent inquiry into the chemical attacks. So, in this case, I put much more faith in the US resolution than the Russian one, since Russia has a vested interest in this. And what spin is there in this? Please enlighten us......

tu204 wrote:
Then why the hell did NATO expand and the west kept on trying to interfere in Russia's internal affairs since 2000? Pretty stupid way of trying to gain trust. Your guys did everything possible to have Russia and Russians turn against the west. Enjoy the mess you guys made.


Stupid argumentation. First NATO expansion, nothing to do with Russia, everything to do with the countries whom wanted to join, why not? Does Russia have some claim to them because of they, de facto, occupied them for 40 years? Somewhere afraid for the Russian bear and look at Georgia and Ukraine, not without cause.
Secondly, could you elaborate the interference in Russia's internal affairs since 2000? What are those, who did interfere? How did they interfere?

Thirdly, it is the same kind of reasoning as this: if a girl is dressed sexy, I can rape her, it is her fault, she shouldnot have dressed the way she did. I, for one, don't subscribe to that point of view.

tu204 wrote:
Amazing how ignorant you are. It actually makes me think you may be outright trolling and cannot be that misguided or stupid to actually be serious with that statement.

But if you are, there is nothing to discuss further. I am telling you that I am looking at a wall and it is black, and you are somewhere far away and listening to someone that claims they are looking at the same wall and they say it is white...and you believe that someone and and tell me that I am blind. Well, you are about as bright as my cat. Thats a compliment by the way, my cat is really smart and can open doors and stuff ;)


Haha, the resident troll is accusing me of trolling, you are a funny guy.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 4021
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Re: R u s s i a

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:07 am

This is Putin's Russia: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 69951.html

Russian business should be prepared to switch to production to military needs at any time, said Vladimir Putin on Wednesday. The Russian president was speaking at a conference of military leaders in Sochi.

“The ability of our economy to increase military production and services at a given time is one of the most important aspects of military security,” Mr Putin said. “To this end, all strategic, and simply large-scale enterprise should be ready, regardless of ownership.”

A day earlier, the president had spoken of a need to catch up and overtake the West in military technology. “Our army and navy need to have the very best equipment — better than foreign equivalents,” he said. “If we want to win, we have to be better.”


My question is why? Nobody wants to attack Russia, the west doesn't want to attack Russia. Does Putin plan to invade, sorry come to the "aid" of ethnic Russian people in the Baltics?

Does Russia want to start another cold war?

Why is Putin saying these things and thus cause more distance between the Russian people and the west?

Don't Russian people see that funds are far better spend on things which will enhance the country, instead of these militaristic things?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
Posts: 4623
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: R u s s i a

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:51 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Nobody wants to attack Russia, the west doesn't want to attack Russia.


You are pretty much out of the loop, aren't you?

There will be no direct attack.
But there is an undeclared full spectrum war run by the US all the time.
Not only against the Russian Federation.

Any breast beating public proclamations to the contrary are blatant lies.
Murphy is an optimist
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5650
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: R u s s i a

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:37 pm

WIederling wrote:
But there is an undeclared full spectrum war run by the US all the time.
Not only against the Russian Federation.


Reading too much of Sputnik news, I suppose?
 
WIederling
Posts: 4623
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: R u s s i a

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:52 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
WIederling wrote:
But there is an undeclared full spectrum war run by the US all the time.
Not only against the Russian Federation.


Reading too much of Sputnik news, I suppose?


??
going through my browser history i found this and only this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKhbI2XUob4
to make it short: you are wrong.

But:
Observation. That helps. ignore what people tell about intentions. look at what they do.
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: R u s s i a

Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:26 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Nobody wants to attack Russia, the west doesn't want to attack Russia.


You are pretty much out of the loop, aren't you?

There will be no direct attack.
But there is an undeclared full spectrum war run by the US all the time.
Not only against the Russian Federation.

Any breast beating public proclamations to the contrary are blatant lies.


Since I am so out of the loop, could you give me 3 examples please, what the US did to the Russian Federation in this undeclared full spectrum war. And I am not too bright, so could you also explain what an undeclared full spectrum war is in your eyes?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1532
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: R u s s i a

Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Well I guess we will just disagree here then. As someone that grew up and untill recently lived in Canada, I really do not see any difference in any freedoms.
Furthermore, people in Russia are quicker to speak their minds on political terms, be it for or against the current government.
Now try in Canada to speak out against the stupid immigration/refugee policies and you will see what I mean. Speak out against other bullshit PC subject and well you get the point...


Are you Canadian? Or a Russian that has grew up in Cananda?


Hard to answer that question.
If you want to look at my ancestry, it is 50% Ukranian, 25% Lithuanian (regularly visit my Granma, aunt and cousins by the way. Sad place.) and 25% Russian (of which is a mix).
So for my biography, born in Russia, at the age of 7 my family moved to Canada, grew up there, school and college then work, the deal. At 21 met my future wife a couple years later had our first child and decided that we didn't want our child to grow up in that culture, so we left.


Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Who obtained Abkhazia or South Ossetia? Get your head out of the sand. Even your bullshit OSCE fact mission stated that the dumbshit Sakashvilli started it.
Afterward the Georgians got their asses kicked and declared independence.

Before saying stupid shit, maybe you actually go there and speak to people there? Read a little bit on their history. As someone who has been to Abkhazia countless times and spoken to them I can tell you one thing - you are a goof to even believe that they are Georgia or will ever become part of Georgia again. Or even that they were ever rightfully a part of Georgia. That was a mistake and they corrected it.


Yes, the little green men, whom also saw action in Crimea and later Putin confessed they were regular Russian soldiers, whom helped, nothing to see there. And read up about it, it was an open war between Russia and Georgia, even cost the life of a Dutch journalist, whom was killed in Tbilisi, Russian still haven't answered for that one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

So the truth, Russia kicked Georgian's ass and now you have to separatistic "countries" whom aren't recognized by anyone and under defacto Putin Russia's control.

I don't care whom these areas share their legions to. What I do care about is the bullying by Russia and starting wars or destabilizing its neighbors. I do care about the international rule of law. I do care about the tribal warfare Russia is engaging itself in, which is so middle ages. If they want independence, whom am I to judge, I don't even have an opinion on that, how could I? If they want to separate themselves, fine, hold a truly free referendum, under the control of an independent international team.
But what Russia did in Abkhazia or South Ossetia was a dress rehearsal for Crimea and what they are doing right now in eastern Ukraine.

Oh, btw stop using anecdotal evidence and trying to look an authority on the subject, not working with me at all.


Amazing. Georgia plays a little ethnic cleansing game with (what was then) their own people, and you protect them. Wake up! Buy or download the new phrasebook from the OSCE! After the hissyfit at first, they recognized that it was Saakashvilli that launched the attack.

If Ossetia was a dress rehearsal, than it was one that you guys launched and got your asses handed to you on a platter. Feel free to try again.

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Amazing how ignorant you are. It actually makes me think you may be outright trolling and cannot be that misguided or stupid to actually be serious with that statement.

But if you are, there is nothing to discuss further. I am telling you that I am looking at a wall and it is black, and you are somewhere far away and listening to someone that claims they are looking at the same wall and they say it is white...and you believe that someone and and tell me that I am blind. Well, you are about as bright as my cat. Thats a compliment by the way, my cat is really smart and can open doors and stuff ;)


Haha, the resident troll is accusing me of trolling, you are a funny guy.


I get it. You are a fanatic. You don't give a rat's ass about facts. You are not a troll, although it would be better if you were one. You actually and honestly believe that the shit coming out of your mouth is the truth. Your version of the truth. You do not accept a different one. You think that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Your values should be shared. Your point of view should be the accepted one and so on. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

Here, let me blow your mind:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petr_Pavlensky

So this dude does all kinds of crazy shit. Nails his ballsack to the Red Square, draws dicks on drawbridges and so on. His finishing act was setting fire, yes, setting fire, an act of arson to the doors to the FSB headquarters in Moscow. This guy was only held for a couple days and let go on parole. All the bullshit "human rights" organizations worldwide went apeshit over this.

Long story short, he left Russia for France, got political asylum there. And what did he do next? Set fire to the gate/doors of the Bank of France!!!
He was arrested and is still being held. Where is the public outcry? Where are all these bullshit organizations calling for his immediate release like when he did the same shit in Russia?

Dudes, are you serious? Are you that blind to your actions that you let such double standards happen in front of your noses?

What the hell do you expect Russians to think when they are given these facts?

You are full of shit and you know it. But thanks for giving Russians a front row seat in seeing it. Live.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3368
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Re: R u s s i a

Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Why is Putin saying these things and thus cause more distance between the Russian people and the west?

Don't Russian people see that funds are far better spend on things which will enhance the country, instead of these militaristic things?

Let's suppose that "the Russian people" do indeed recognize the situation that you have proposed.

What, precisely, do you think they could do about it given the current state of government?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: R u s s i a

Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:56 pm

tu204 wrote:
I get it. You are a fanatic. You don't give a rat's ass about facts. You are not a troll, although it would be better if you were one. You actually and honestly believe that the shit coming out of your mouth is the truth. Your version of the truth. You do not accept a different one. You think that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Your values should be shared. Your point of view should be the accepted one and so on. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.


According to you:
- Where am I a fanatic in?

- Are there more version of the truth?

- do you accept a different version then what you believe to be the truth?

- What are my values whom I am pushing?

Interesting to see what are your answers to it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1532
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: R u s s i a

Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
I get it. You are a fanatic. You don't give a rat's ass about facts. You are not a troll, although it would be better if you were one. You actually and honestly believe that the shit coming out of your mouth is the truth. Your version of the truth. You do not accept a different one. You think that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Your values should be shared. Your point of view should be the accepted one and so on. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.


According to you:
- Where am I a fanatic in?

- Are there more version of the truth?

- do you accept a different version then what you believe to be the truth?

- What are my values whom I am pushing?

Interesting to see what are your answers to it.


1) You are a fanatic of your values, your vision of the truth. I don't know you too well, but the you seem to be pretty sure that it is your version of government and your view of democracy is the one that should be universally accepted. Just by throwing phrases like "I have a better idea of what is going on in Russia" despite not living here shows that.

2) Hell yeah, there are several versions of the "truth". I experienced it myself firsthand when I moved to Russia 4 years ago. Pretty much everything I read and saw in the western media was bullsit when it came to Russia. The final straw for me personally was when I was working at the 2014 Sochi Olympics and at the same time reading bullshit about it in the western media. Imagine if I told you from somewhere far away that the house next to yours houses drug addicts, but in reality it does not. And all you have to do is look at the house next door to see that I am full of shit. Well, that is when I once and for all lost any respect I ever had for the western press.

3) Sure, I accept them. On your turf. I see you are from the Netherlands. I have been to Amsterdam countless times and I totally respect your culture. I don't go to your country telling you how you guys should live your lives. If you are cool with it, I have no right to say otherwise as an outsider. However I do not want to see any of that shit here in my country where I live, raise my children and pay taxes. Do what you want where you live, don't try to push your views and your values onto where I live and we get along fine.

4) To sum them up, Liberal values.

P.S. In a parallel post you posted a photo of Yeltsin in front of the House of Parliament in Russia and said that that photo showed you hope or what not. When I saw the photo, I saw disgrace and misery.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: R u s s i a

Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:50 pm

tu204 wrote:
1) You are a fanatic of your values, your vision of the truth. I don't know you too well, but the you seem to be pretty sure that it is your version of government and your view of democracy is the one that should be universally accepted. Just by throwing phrases like "I have a better idea of what is going on in Russia" despite not living here shows that.


No, I see many types of government are functioning. The Singaporean government is also autocratic and is functioning fine.

What I do believe is that the universal human rights should be valid everywhere. I do believe that people should be free. And I hate corruption. Are you against these values?

Where did I say: "I have a better idea of what is going on in Russia"?

tu204 wrote:
2) Hell yeah, there are several versions of the "truth". I experienced it myself firsthand when I moved to Russia 4 years ago. Pretty much everything I read and saw in the western media was bullsit when it came to Russia. The final straw for me personally was when I was working at the 2014 Sochi Olympics and at the same time reading bullshit about it in the western media. Imagine if I told you from somewhere far away that the house next to yours houses drug addicts, but in reality it does not. And all you have to do is look at the house next door to see that I am full of shit. Well, that is when I once and for all lost any respect I ever had for the western press.


May I ask what the western media said, that isn't the truth and where did you obtain this knowledge? And the same in Sochi, what did the western media portrayed that wasn't the case. Please come with some examples, I can't do anything with this.

Facts are facts, but you can have a different take on facts.

tu204 wrote:
3) Sure, I accept them. On your turf. I see you are from the Netherlands. I have been to Amsterdam countless times and I totally respect your culture. I don't go to your country telling you how you guys should live your lives. If you are cool with it, I have no right to say otherwise as an outsider. However I do not want to see any of that shit here in my country where I live, raise my children and pay taxes. Do what you want where you live, don't try to push your views and your values onto where I live and we get along fine.


So you came to Amsterdam and you found that it is full of shit? Interesting. I don't mind if you criticize my country, I do it all the time. And with the exception of the universal human rights chapter, I don't say anything about the culture of your adopted country. I actually went to Russia and saw it with my own eyes. It was good to experience it for myself, the people and the culture. The line is of course in the international arena or in the bilateral relations between Russia and The Netherlands.

tu204 wrote:
4) To sum them up, Liberal values.


Yup, I am a liberal, so?

tu204 wrote:
P.S. In a parallel post you posted a photo of Yeltsin in front of the House of Parliament in Russia and said that that photo showed you hope or what not. When I saw the photo, I saw disgrace and misery.


Ok, that is fine. Same facts, different take. No problem there.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1532
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: R u s s i a

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
1) You are a fanatic of your values, your vision of the truth. I don't know you too well, but the you seem to be pretty sure that it is your version of government and your view of democracy is the one that should be universally accepted. Just by throwing phrases like "I have a better idea of what is going on in Russia" despite not living here shows that.


No, I see many types of government are functioning. The Singaporean government is also autocratic and is functioning fine.

What I do believe is that the universal human rights should be valid everywhere. I do believe that people should be free. And I hate corruption. Are you against these values?

Where did I say: "I have a better idea of what is going on in Russia"?

tu204 wrote:
2) Hell yeah, there are several versions of the "truth". I experienced it myself firsthand when I moved to Russia 4 years ago. Pretty much everything I read and saw in the western media was bullsit when it came to Russia. The final straw for me personally was when I was working at the 2014 Sochi Olympics and at the same time reading bullshit about it in the western media. Imagine if I told you from somewhere far away that the house next to yours houses drug addicts, but in reality it does not. And all you have to do is look at the house next door to see that I am full of shit. Well, that is when I once and for all lost any respect I ever had for the western press.


May I ask what the western media said, that isn't the truth and where did you obtain this knowledge? And the same in Sochi, what did the western media portrayed that wasn't the case. Please come with some examples, I can't do anything with this.

Facts are facts, but you can have a different take on facts.

tu204 wrote:
3) Sure, I accept them. On your turf. I see you are from the Netherlands. I have been to Amsterdam countless times and I totally respect your culture. I don't go to your country telling you how you guys should live your lives. If you are cool with it, I have no right to say otherwise as an outsider. However I do not want to see any of that shit here in my country where I live, raise my children and pay taxes. Do what you want where you live, don't try to push your views and your values onto where I live and we get along fine.


So you came to Amsterdam and you found that it is full of shit? Interesting. I don't mind if you criticize my country, I do it all the time. And with the exception of the universal human rights chapter, I don't say anything about the culture of your adopted country. I actually went to Russia and saw it with my own eyes. It was good to experience it for myself, the people and the culture. The line is of course in the international arena or in the bilateral relations between Russia and The Netherlands.

tu204 wrote:
4) To sum them up, Liberal values.


Yup, I am a liberal, so?

tu204 wrote:
P.S. In a parallel post you posted a photo of Yeltsin in front of the House of Parliament in Russia and said that that photo showed you hope or what not. When I saw the photo, I saw disgrace and misery.


Ok, that is fine. Same facts, different take. No problem there.


1) I too believe corruption is bad. However I think that blaming corruption for all of your problems is bullshit. I lived in Russia for 4 years and haven't seen corruption. None. Zero. From traffic ticket to business.

You personally did say that you had a better idea on what was going on in Russia than I. Kinda lazy to look it up, wanna make a bet out of it and I'll find it for you.

2) When I arrived in Sochi in January 2014, I came upon bullshit from housing not being completed to reports by the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Company) or empty stands. When I, as TBO (ticket box office) had almost one hundred people standing in line to buy tickets to said event. I was the one responsible for Roza Khutor Extreme Park. I kid you not, I had around 100 people waiting to buy tickets to a sold out event, while at the same time I was watching a CBC report about empty stands. My cashiers got a kick out of it too.

3) You didn't get my point. What I am saying is that you are free to do what you want in your country. When you start trying to push your views and values somewhere you don't live, a problem arises. I have nowhere in my life told someone how to live in their home. Try to do the same. Universal Human rights are a
pretty flimsy subject too. What do you accept as universal?

4) Nothing wrong with being a liberal. I respect that. But keep those values to your own country.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: R u s s i a

Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:16 pm

tu204 wrote:
1) I too believe corruption is bad. However I think that blaming corruption for all of your problems is bullshit. I lived in Russia for 4 years and haven't seen corruption. None. Zero. From traffic ticket to business.

You personally did say that you had a better idea on what was going on in Russia than I. Kinda lazy to look it up, wanna make a bet out of it and I'll find it for you.


I was in Russia for 1.5 weeks and encountered corruption. So anecdotical evidence = no evidence, it just doesn't count.

I still believe in must more objective numbers: Russia 131 out of 176 countries. So corruption is very bad in Russia. No denying that, right?
https://www.transparency.org/news/featu ... index_2016

tu204 wrote:
2) When I arrived in Sochi in January 2014, I came upon bullshit from housing not being completed to reports by the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Company) or empty stands. When I, as TBO (ticket box office) had almost one hundred people standing in line to buy tickets to said event. I was the one responsible for Roza Khutor Extreme Park. I kid you not, I had around 100 people waiting to buy tickets to a sold out event, while at the same time I was watching a CBC report about empty stands. My cashiers got a kick out of it too.


Sochi, the perfect example of how the Russian elite is robbing the Russian people: US$51 billion budget. And of course the Russian doping scandal. And all other controversies surrounding it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerns_ ... r_Olympics

Don't know how it was with you specific, anecdotical evidence at best, we can just look at the numbers again:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/2014-sochi ... 1391792932
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sochi-olym ... ket-sales/

Can't seem to find the exact numbers, but you get the drift.

tu204 wrote:
3) You didn't get my point. What I am saying is that you are free to do what you want in your country. When you start trying to push your views and values somewhere you don't live, a problem arises. I have nowhere in my life told someone how to live in their home. Try to do the same. Universal Human rights are a
pretty flimsy subject too. What do you accept as universal?


Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.

Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.

(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.


http://www.un.org/en/universal-declarat ... an-rights/

So which of those rights don't you agree with? And can be pushed away?

tu204 wrote:
4) Nothing wrong with being a liberal. I respect that. But keep those values to your own country.


Again which values am I pushing other than the Universal Declaration Human Rights and international law.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1532
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: R u s s i a

Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:32 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
1) I too believe corruption is bad. However I think that blaming corruption for all of your problems is bullshit. I lived in Russia for 4 years and haven't seen corruption. None. Zero. From traffic ticket to business.

You personally did say that you had a better idea on what was going on in Russia than I. Kinda lazy to look it up, wanna make a bet out of it and I'll find it for you.


I was in Russia for 1.5 weeks and encountered corruption. So anecdotical evidence = no evidence, it just doesn't count.

I still believe in must more objective numbers: Russia 131 out of 176 countries. So corruption is very bad in Russia. No denying that, right?
https://www.transparency.org/news/featu ... index_2016

tu204 wrote:
2) When I arrived in Sochi in January 2014, I came upon bullshit from housing not being completed to reports by the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Company) or empty stands. When I, as TBO (ticket box office) had almost one hundred people standing in line to buy tickets to said event. I was the one responsible for Roza Khutor Extreme Park. I kid you not, I had around 100 people waiting to buy tickets to a sold out event, while at the same time I was watching a CBC report about empty stands. My cashiers got a kick out of it too.


Sochi, the perfect example of how the Russian elite is robbing the Russian people: US$51 billion budget. And of course the Russian doping scandal. And all other controversies surrounding it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerns_ ... r_Olympics

Don't know how it was with you specific, anecdotical evidence at best, we can just look at the numbers again:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/2014-sochi ... 1391792932
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sochi-olym ... ket-sales/

Can't seem to find the exact numbers, but you get the drift.

tu204 wrote:
3) You didn't get my point. What I am saying is that you are free to do what you want in your country. When you start trying to push your views and values somewhere you don't live, a problem arises. I have nowhere in my life told someone how to live in their home. Try to do the same. Universal Human rights are a
pretty flimsy subject too. What do you accept as universal?


Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.

Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.

(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.


http://www.un.org/en/universal-declarat ... an-rights/

So which of those rights don't you agree with? And can be pushed away?

tu204 wrote:
4) Nothing wrong with being a liberal. I respect that. But keep those values to your own country.


Again which values am I pushing other than the Universal Declaration Human Rights and international law.


Well sorry that you first hand experienced corruption in Russia. How long ago was this?

As far as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights go. I agree. But which point do you think Russia violates?

You haven't answered my question about Russia and double standards, and in particular to Pavlensky. I've got another example for you: This last week the US is forcing Russia Today and Sputnik News to register as foreign agents in the US, plus taking away accredidation to attend Congress and Senate. Immediately Russia does the same, passing a law forcing foreign press to register as foreign agents. Simply a tit for tat. But look at the State Department throwing a hissy fit that this is unfair. What the hell are they thinking? I mean, if you want to pass these laws in the west, ok, but obviously there will be an immediate and symmetrical reaction. Or do you somehow think that you can do something towards us, and we for some reason cannot do the same towards you guys?

If the west really loves the "Russian population" so much and just dislikes Putin, do you guys realise that actions like this will turn even the biggest critics of Putin into his supporters? Or you guys just straight out idiots and can't understand the concept of cause and effect?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 4021
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: R u s s i a

Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:37 am

tu204 wrote:
Universal Declaration of Human Rights wrote:
Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.

Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.

(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.
(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.
(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declarat ... an-rights/


As far as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights go. I agree. But which point do you think Russia violates?


Good to see you subscribe to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, do you feel that in Russia no rights are violated for none of the people?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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