curlyheadboy
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Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:05 pm

From CNN:

The Argentine navy is looking for one of its submarines after it lost contact with the vessel off the country's Atlantic coast, the military service said Friday.

The ARA San Juan submarine was last spotted Wednesday in the San Jorge Gulf roughly 432 kilometers (268 miles) off the east coast, the navy said.
At least 44 crew members were on board, state-run news agency Telam reported Friday.
Crews are searching for the vessel by air and sea near its last known location, navy spokesman Enrique Balbi told reporters.


Praying for the souls onboard, this doesn't look good at all...
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:29 am

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flyingturtle
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:01 pm

A satcom company has registered seven attempts to communicate, all within a few minutes. Because radio comms from a sub is heavily restricted, it means that the sub has managed to surface at some time.

Given that a sub must have ELTs, I wonder why they haven't been used. Catastrophic failure after trying to use satcom?

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mmo
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:34 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
A satcom company has registered seven attempts to communicate, all within a few minutes. Because radio comms from a sub is heavily restricted, it means that the sub has managed to surface at some time.


David



Sorry, but it does not indicate the sub has managed to surface. What it does mean is the beacon has broken the surface. The EPIRB (Emergency Position Indicator Radio Beacon) broadcasts on 406 MHz and can be released either automatically in a distress situation or manually. They do broadcast for 24-48 hours continually.
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Dano1977
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:13 pm

Something serious must have gone wrong if they didn't blow the tanks?

or

There somewhere where they shouldn't have been.
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WIederling
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:23 pm

mmo wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
A satcom company has registered seven attempts to communicate, all within a few minutes. Because radio comms from a sub is heavily restricted, it means that the sub has managed to surface at some time.


David



Sorry, but it does not indicate the sub has managed to surface. What it does mean is the beacon has broken the surface. The EPIRB (Emergency Position Indicator Radio Beacon) broadcasts on 406 MHz and can be released either automatically in a distress situation or manually. They do broadcast for 24-48 hours continually.


The described satcom contacts seem to not reference the EPIRB transmissions.
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alberchico
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:41 am

US is sending rescue vessels down to Argentina in case the sub is found intact with survivors trapped inside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGBGiFjEmgM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mP5zMaj8ysg

Even though its in Spanish this graph helps display all the assets deployed to help with the search:

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Aesma
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:21 am

So, how is a diesel electric submarine operated during patrols, how much time snorkeling and how much time in a dive ?
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UltimoTiger777
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:42 am

Aesma wrote:
So, how is a diesel electric submarine operated during patrols, how much time snorkeling and how much time in a dive ?


Some modern German diesel submarines (the Argentinian ones are all German designed), can go for about three weeks without needing to snorkel. The problem for the Argentinian Navy is that it's been so badly underfunded since the Falklands War and the economic crisis's that Argentina has had, you have no idea if these vessels have been properly maintained. Just a few years ago one of their main surface combatants (ironically a British Type 42 destroyer), rolled over in harbour and sank after having lay derelict for some years.

All it would take is a few corners cut and that submarine will be a death trap.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:49 am

We're talking about some kind of air independent system then, or at least air storage/recycling, not just diesel-electric.
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:22 am

I'm waiting for the Argintine govt to announce the Brits sank it!! ;)
 
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:43 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
So, how is a diesel electric submarine operated during patrols, how much time snorkeling and how much time in a dive ?


Some modern German diesel submarines (the Argentinian ones are all German designed), can go for about three weeks without needing to snorkel. The problem for the Argentinian Navy is that it's been so badly underfunded since the Falklands War and the economic crisis's that Argentina has had, you have no idea if these vessels have been properly maintained. Just a few years ago one of their main surface combatants (ironically a British Type 42 destroyer), rolled over in harbour and sank after having lay derelict for some years.

All it would take is a few corners cut and that submarine will be a death trap.


The government purposely gutted military spending in the last 15 years, in which there was no economic crisis, in fact the economy doubled. So not so easy for the current or prior goverment to blame it on anything like that. 0.6% of GDP on military in 2015 is a completely willingful decision.
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:58 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
I'm waiting for the Argintine govt to announce the Brits sank it!! ;)


Yes, it's interesting the ARA San Juan was completed only a year after the Falklands war...


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flyingturtle
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:48 pm

During the last comms, the sub's crew reported a mechanical breakdown:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42055676


David
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salttee
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:55 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
During the last comms, the sub's crew reported a mechanical breakdown:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42055676


David
We hardly need to hear anything more after reading that.

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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:10 pm

Renewed hopes, the Navy has heard what it calls 'permanent and repetitive' sounds coming from the bottom of the ocean. They have 7 days of oxygen on board, so locating the sub and rescue has to happen before Wednesday is over.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ical-phase
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:11 pm

The Norwegian offshore vessel "Skandi Patagonia" will assist in the exploration after the missing submarine which has 44 people aboard :

Image

Photo: DOF Group

https://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/arge ... /24191641/
 
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:09 am

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flyingturtle
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:45 am

Redd wrote:
Renewed hopes, the Navy has heard what it calls 'permanent and repetitive' sounds coming from the bottom of the ocean. They have 7 days of oxygen on board, so locating the sub and rescue has to happen before Wednesday is over.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ical-phase


...which has been debunked now. :frown: :frown: :frown:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/a ... 96806.html

Still hoping the best,

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Aesma
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:06 am

The problem is that to send the distress signal they had to be very close to the surface. So if from there they haven't surfaced, then most probably they have sunk, meaning the thing is significantly flooded. I'm not expecting a good outcome.
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:42 am

Aesma wrote:
The problem is that to send the distress signal they had to be very close to the surface. So if from there they haven't surfaced, then most probably they have sunk, meaning the thing is significantly flooded. I'm not expecting a good outcome.


Sky News were speculating last night, that Sub slid off an ocean shelf and gone to the depths of the Atlantic, possibly exceeding it's test and crush depths...

No basis for this speculation though
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:02 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
or

There somewhere where they shouldn't have been.

This was my initial thought when they were so very vague about where the sub had gone missing.
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:27 pm

Redd wrote:
Shouldn't the US Navy's SOSUS underwater listening system get an accurate triangulation? Does anyone know if it's still operating?

SOSUS runs from Greenland via Iceland to the UK. The submarine was lost near Argentina... waaaay out of range for SOSUS.
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Redd
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:27 pm

Shouldn't the US Navy's SOSUS underwater listening system get an accurate triangulation? Does anyone know if it's still operating?
 
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:55 pm

The capabilities of the SOSUS have been decreased anyway, as the USN seeks to deploy theatre-specific listening capabilities.

In this case, two ships and sonobuoys dropped by the P-8 have not gathered any relevant noises from the sea.


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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:06 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
The capabilities of the SOSUS have been decreased anyway, as the USN seeks to deploy theatre-specific listening capabilities.

In this case, two ships and sonobuoys dropped by the P-8 have not gathered any relevant noises from the sea.


David


You would think they would have a crew member/s banging on the sub like a child with ADHD to create as much noise as possible
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:20 pm

A US search plane seems to have found an object 70 m below the surface, supposedly because the water was warmer at this place.

But that news report (in German) is sketchy, because it says radar had been used to find it.


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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:06 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
A US search plane seems to have found an object 70 m below the surface, supposedly because the water was warmer at this place.

But that news report (in German) is sketchy, because it says radar had been used to find it.


David


From NZ herald

A US navy plane searching for a missing Argentinian submarine has spotted an object on the ocean floor, local media say.

The plane's radar had discovered an area of heat around 70m below the surface of the southern Atlantic, leading
rescuers to believe it could be the missing ARA San Juan, the radio station Mitre and the newspaper Clarin reported


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/ar ... d=11946876

Isn't this what P3C Orion's (or any other maritime patrol aircraft) are designed to do?
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flyingturtle
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:08 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
Isn't this what P3C Orion's are designed to do?


Yes, but I'm sure the "radar" got born in translation. About three years ago I've devoured many books on submarines (and how to detect them), and I don't understand how you can detect the heat of an object that is 70 m below surface.

A thermocline, perhaps? Detected by active or passive sonar?


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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:57 pm

The news is that there are still no news.

Even the heat anomaly detected by the USN search plane is just... nothing. Likewise, flares sighted by the British polar research vessel were neither from the sub nor from a life raft. Zilch. Nothing.

And it's frustrating when I type "ARA San Juan" in Google's News search, and when selecting "past 1 hours", it turns up news that were debunked yesterday (or even earlier).


Though I fear the worst, I hope the best for the men and the woman from ARA San Juan.


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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:00 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
So, how is a diesel electric submarine operated during patrols, how much time snorkeling and how much time in a dive ?


Some modern German diesel submarines (the Argentinian ones are all German designed), can go for about three weeks without needing to snorkel. The problem for the Argentinian Navy is that it's been so badly underfunded since the Falklands War and the economic crisis's that Argentina has had, you have no idea if these vessels have been properly maintained. Just a few years ago one of their main surface combatants (ironically a British Type 42 destroyer), rolled over in harbour and sank after having lay derelict for some years.

All it would take is a few corners cut and that submarine will be a death trap.


From the Wiki article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_San_Juan_(S-42)#Operational_history

A mid-life update on the San Juan was carried out in Argentina between 2008 and 2013, taking longer than expected due to budget constraints. The upgrade cost around 100 million pesos ($12.4 million) and comprised more than 500,000 work hours during which the submarine was cut in half and had its four MTU engines and batteries replaced. The updates were carried out at the Argentine Industrial Naval Complex's (CINAR) Tandanor and Storni shipyards.

What Happened to the poor submariners???

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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:09 pm

Latest update:

According to the Argentine navy officials, the sound, described as "consistent with a non-nuclear explosion" that was "abnormal, singular, short, violent" was detected just three hours after the last known communication.


http://abcnews.go.com/International/sou ... d=51344895
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curlyheadboy
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:24 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Latest update:

According to the Argentine navy officials, the sound, described as "consistent with a non-nuclear explosion" that was "abnormal, singular, short, violent" was detected just three hours after the last known communication.


http://abcnews.go.com/International/sou ... d=51344895


This story looks worse and worse as time goes by, if they have been submerged all the time they're now approaching (if not past) the time they'd run out of breathable air, plus there's clues of a possible explosion. You can only speculate about it but, if they had a fire onboard (their last comm was about battery troubles) and it set off a torpedo (look in the sub blueprint above where the batteries sit)... well, that'd be all over for those poor souls. We can still hope until there's hope but still...
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:35 pm

Anyway, it was so catastrophic and fast that the emergency transmitter buoy could not be deployed. Otherwise, we'd probably have a signal since long ago.

In 2000, Kursk could not deploy the buoy - because it was fixated to the submarine. The Russian navy did not want an accidental deployment when Kursk shadowed a Nato exercise earlier in the Mediterrenean.


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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:01 pm

Would this sub have any "black boxes" that could be recovered??
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:55 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Would this sub have any "black boxes" that could be recovered??


None that I know of. Usually, a diving robot will give you enough pictures.

The Tornado fighter, as I have read in the early 90ies, does have a detachable black box - with an aerodynamical shape (to glide down), it's light enough to float, and it has a emergency transmitter.


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AR385
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:24 pm

They are all dead. A week ago. I am so sad. Hopefully it was quick,
 
ltbewr
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:57 am

Based on the recent report of an 'explosion' it may be a fuel vapor, electrical system or battery fire that led led to it. The conditions might have built up for a while before the explosion, but severe and quick enough to prevent a crash surfacing. The fire also could have triggered a structural collapse. I do hope for a through investigation, that the bodies of those on board are recovered or if not feasible, then the sub becomes their tomb and not to be disturbed.
 
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:25 am

ltbewr wrote:
Based on the recent report of an 'explosion' it may be a fuel vapor, electrical system or battery fire that led led to it. The conditions might have built up for a while before the explosion, but severe and quick enough to prevent a crash surfacing. The fire also could have triggered a structural collapse. I do hope for a through investigation, that the bodies of those on board are recovered or if not feasible, then the sub becomes their tomb and not to be disturbed.


diesel doesn't do fuel vapors.
battery fire does not go "large non nuclear explosion".

torpedoes going off? (from a collision?)
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bennett123
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:47 am

Good to see that the UK helped with the search effort.

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curlyheadboy
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:22 am

WIederling wrote:

diesel doesn't do fuel vapors.
battery fire does not go "large non nuclear explosion".

torpedoes going off? (from a collision?)


As I wrote above, the sub diagram shows the forward batteries are right below the crew compartment and the ordnance storage. If they had a battery fire, that may have rapidly incapacitated the crew and prevented them to resurface. Once the fire got to the torpedoes and burned for long enough, boom.
That's very sad.
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:47 am

I assume they use lead-acid batteries, not lithium ones. Can they lead to nasty fires, too?


David
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:00 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
I assume they use lead-acid batteries, not lithium ones. Can they lead to nasty fires, too?


Batteries: lead-acid.

Fire : yes. And yes, any fire on a sub is "nasty". I don't think that batteries caused a big bang here.
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:12 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
I assume they use lead-acid batteries, not lithium ones. Can they lead to nasty fires, too?


David



Lead-acid batteries can burn and blow up too, though without the intensity of lithium batteries. My first ever car was totaled by the battery catching on fire. It is of course purely academic to make assumptions without hard evidence, but the fact they reported battery troubles before they lost comms and apparently suffered an explosion stands out among the very small clues available in this moment.
On a side note, I am wondering how strong they'll commit to find and salvage the wreck after they give up hopes of rescuing anyone, the quest for answers will surely clash with the costly and difficult task to find the sunken ship.
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:42 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
I assume they use lead-acid batteries, not lithium ones. Can they lead to nasty fires, too?


David
And toxic fumes.
 
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:09 pm

A desperate attempt to get the Norwegian ship Sophie Siem ready to try and to possibly if they are stil alive to get the submarine crew up is underway. The ship is to help bring a US rescue capsule out to the area if the subamarine is found so that it can lock on to the submarine. However the ship is not really built for this task but was the only one available. They nare now cutting a hole in the ship to be able to possibly launche the capsule.


https://www.nrk.no/urix/norsk-skip-invo ... 1.13795689


Norwegian and British divers and ships from the Norwegian and British offshore oil industry did somethigng similare in relations to the tragedy with the Russian submarine Kursk.
 
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:29 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
I assume they use lead-acid batteries, not lithium ones. Can they lead to nasty fires, too?


David


Lead acid batteries produce hydrogen gas when charging.

curlyheadboy wrote:
My first ever car was totaled by the battery catching on fire


Battery fires are rather common in cars equipped with lead acid batteries. Most people have no idea how common they are. They are more common than fires in Hybrids and electrics.
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WIederling
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:27 am

falstaff wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
I assume they use lead-acid batteries, not lithium ones. Can they lead to nasty fires, too?


David


Lead acid batteries produce hydrogen gas when charging.

hydrogen gas ( and oxygen ) when overcharging. which you invariably do at the end of the charging cycle.
But that is a managed risk from use on a submarine.

curlyheadboy wrote:
My first ever car was totaled by the battery catching on fire

Just and only the battery?

Battery fires are rather common in cars equipped with lead acid batteries. Most people have no idea how common they are. They are more common than fires in Hybrids and electrics.


You can have fires from arcing on damaged cabling together with broken fuel lines.
But you won't get fires from just the batttery being damaged. this is absolutely rare.

More probable are explosions from (over)charging your car battery in the basement via unsuitable means.
( usually going boom when the noob comes back with a cigar or switches on the lights ( ignition source )
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petertenthije
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:36 pm

According to a statement by the Argentinian navy, the submarine reported problems just prior to disappearing. Therefor the submarine was under orders to return to port. They had orders to: "isolate the battery, and return while submerged back to Mar del Plata using another battery". Apparantly the main battery short-circuited when it came into contact with water that had spilled in through the snorkel.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-arge ... SKBN1DR2B3
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Re: Argentina's navy lost a submarine?

Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:14 pm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11 ... t-battery/

The Navy waited five days to confirm rumours the submarine had suffered a battery fault, and then insisted it was unrelated to the disappearance.

The message is also likely to raise further questions over the Navy’s decision to wait two days to begin a physical search for the ARA San Juan. While the force has insisted this was in accordance with protocol for a submarine that had lost communication, the existence of such faults has generated doubts over that decision.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling

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