tu204
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:00 am

On a related note, President Putin visited Khmeimim Airbase in Syria yesterday and announced "Mission Accomplished" and ordered the withdrawal of most forces stationed there.

It is too early to make any forecasts on future Syria, but it will be interesting to see if the Russian way of fighting conflicts abroad will have a better result that NATO.
After the mess in Afghanistan, Libya and Iraq the bar is set pretty damn low, so if Syrians stop shooting each other I would call it a success.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:01 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I am sure the Russian state will ignore any court unfavorable towards them, as we have seen by the conviction of Russia in the Greenpeace case, The Netherlands is still waiting for the money for the damages caused by the Russian state.


As is the way it should be. Why in the hell should Russia, a sovreign state ackgowledge a bullshit decision of a treaty that Russia explicitly noted that will not comply to settlement procedures...back in 1997 when the UNCLS was signed.

Those Greenpeace goofs should be forever greatful they were released and their ship wasn't sent to the scrappers as it should have been, ya know, having been basically used as a weapon to commit the crime.

Since you mention it, however, lets put politics aside and look at that Artic Sunrise case. Objectively
Where do you see any bias in the Russian Court's decision? I mean they were fucking lucky. The piracy charges (15 years max) were changed to aggrevated hooliganism (maximum 3 years) one month into the investigation, and then the case was closed (don't confuse with charges being dropped) due to an amnesty by the Russian Government. The bail money was returned to Greenpeace and they were permitted to take their shit barge back. What more could they ask for?


Apology for doing it in the first place. You call it a bullshit decision, ok, do you have anything else to back up your "bullshit" claim? It is a serious court, with serious independent judges, they interpreted a thready Russia signed and thus acknowledges.

And I think releasing the Greenpeace activist is a political decision and the amnesty kind of proofs it. The could have asked for their ship to be returned in the state the Russian government seized it illegally, but instead it was trashed.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I am sure the Russian state will ignore any court unfavorable towards them, as we have seen by the conviction of Russia in the Greenpeace case, The Netherlands is still waiting for the money for the damages caused by the Russian state.


As is the way it should be. Why in the hell should Russia, a sovreign state ackgowledge a bullshit decision of a treaty that Russia explicitly noted that will not comply to settlement procedures...back in 1997 when the UNCLS was signed.

Those Greenpeace goofs should be forever greatful they were released and their ship wasn't sent to the scrappers as it should have been, ya know, having been basically used as a weapon to commit the crime.

Since you mention it, however, lets put politics aside and look at that Artic Sunrise case. Objectively
Where do you see any bias in the Russian Court's decision? I mean they were fucking lucky. The piracy charges (15 years max) were changed to aggrevated hooliganism (maximum 3 years) one month into the investigation, and then the case was closed (don't confuse with charges being dropped) due to an amnesty by the Russian Government. The bail money was returned to Greenpeace and they were permitted to take their shit barge back. What more could they ask for?


Apology for doing it in the first place. You call it a bullshit decision, ok, do you have anything else to back up your "bullshit" claim? It is a serious court, with serious independent judges, they interpreted a thready Russia signed and thus acknowledges.

And I think releasing the Greenpeace activist is a political decision and the amnesty kind of proofs it. The could have asked for their ship to be returned in the state the Russian government seized it illegally, but instead it was trashed.


Apologize for what? GREENPEACE activists violated international law, while in international waters. They should be grateful for the fact that it was shown this unprecedented indulgence. Really - if this were the citizens of Russia, they would be condemned to the fullest. And I am very unhappy - I believe that criminals should be punished.Apologize for what? GREENPEACE activists violated international law, while in international waters. They should be grateful for the fact that it was shown this unprecedented indulgence. Really - if this were the citizens of Russia, they would be condemned to the fullest. And I am very unhappy - I believe that criminals should be punished.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:34 am

Scorpius wrote:
Apologize for what? GREENPEACE activists violated international law, while in international waters. They should be grateful for the fact that it was shown this unprecedented indulgence. Really - if this were the citizens of Russia, they would be condemned to the fullest. And I am very unhappy - I believe that criminals should be punished.


According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.

And among the group, there were Russian citizens.

So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:14 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Apologize for what? GREENPEACE activists violated international law, while in international waters. They should be grateful for the fact that it was shown this unprecedented indulgence. Really - if this were the citizens of Russia, they would be condemned to the fullest. And I am very unhappy - I believe that criminals should be punished.


According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.

And among the group, there were Russian citizens.

So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you :lol:


The statement "Among the perpetrators were Russian - it means all Russian criminals" is a deliberate lie and an attempt to denigrate the Russian.
A typical technique of Western propaganda.

Would not the specific points of international law that is allegedly violated Russia?
I remember that in the situation with the Arctic Sunrise it was not the first provocation, and Russia at first politely warned that attempts to sabotage the work of the oil platform will be regarded as aggression and criminal act. Even the Dutch government appealed, however, the Dutch government ignored all the warnings.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:15 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Apologize for what? GREENPEACE activists violated international law, while in international waters. They should be grateful for the fact that it was shown this unprecedented indulgence. Really - if this were the citizens of Russia, they would be condemned to the fullest. And I am very unhappy - I believe that criminals should be punished.


According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.

And among the group, there were Russian citizens.

So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you :lol:


The statement "Among the perpetrators were Russian - it means all Russian criminals" is a deliberate lie and an attempt to denigrate the Russian.
A typical technique of Western propaganda.

Would not the specific points of international law that is allegedly violated Russia?
I remember that in the situation with the Arctic Sunrise it was not the first provocation, and Russia at first politely warned that attempts to sabotage the work of the oil platform will be regarded as aggression and criminal act. Even the Dutch government appealed, however, the Dutch government ignored all the warnings.


- I said among the group were Russian citizens, not perpetrators and it certainly not means all Russians are criminals, that logic fails on so many levels. So misinterpretation on your side at best...........

- International law Russia violated, for which they were convicted: read the verdict if you are really interested, Google is your friend.

- Dutch government ignoring all warnings? It is not up to the Dutch government to say what a protest must look like, so that is bullshit. The only reason the Dutch government is involved is that Greenpeace ships are registered in The Netherlands (and a couple of Dutch citizens were on board).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

I am sure the Russian state will ignore any court unfavorable towards them, as we have seen by the conviction of Russia in the Greenpeace case, The Netherlands is still waiting for the money for the damages caused by the Russian state.


As is the way it should be. Why in the hell should Russia, a sovreign state ackgowledge a bullshit decision of a treaty that Russia explicitly noted that will not comply to settlement procedures...back in 1997 when the UNCLS was signed.

Those Greenpeace goofs should be forever greatful they were released and their ship wasn't sent to the scrappers as it should have been, ya know, having been basically used as a weapon to commit the crime.

Since you mention it, however, lets put politics aside and look at that Artic Sunrise case. Objectively
Where do you see any bias in the Russian Court's decision? I mean they were fucking lucky. The piracy charges (15 years max) were changed to aggrevated hooliganism (maximum 3 years) one month into the investigation, and then the case was closed (don't confuse with charges being dropped) due to an amnesty by the Russian Government. The bail money was returned to Greenpeace and they were permitted to take their shit barge back. What more could they ask for?


Apology for doing it in the first place. You call it a bullshit decision, ok, do you have anything else to back up your "bullshit" claim? It is a serious court, with serious independent judges, they interpreted a thready Russia signed and thus acknowledges.

And I think releasing the Greenpeace activist is a political decision and the amnesty kind of proofs it. The could have asked for their ship to be returned in the state the Russian government seized it illegally, but instead it was trashed.


Apology by whom and for what? Didn't understand that.

The amnesty was not for the specific case, it was for all criminal cases with certain criteria.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:33 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Apologize for what? GREENPEACE activists violated international law, while in international waters. They should be grateful for the fact that it was shown this unprecedented indulgence. Really - if this were the citizens of Russia, they would be condemned to the fullest. And I am very unhappy - I believe that criminals should be punished.


According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.

And among the group, there were Russian citizens.

So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you :lol:


Ooops, ignore my post above then.

Russia has absolutely nothing to apologize for to anyone in this matter. Doesn't matter what some international court said. In this case it matters what the Russian court said and some common sense.

Criminals with unknown intentions (don't bullshit me on the fact that they had Greenpeace written on their ship or whatever) tried to force their was onto a Russian strategic facility. They were then taken arrested and so was their ship and their accomplices as they were clearly an organised group that was supporting the criminals that were forcing their way onto a Russian strategic facility with unknown intentions.

Completely correct actions on behalf of Russia here up to the amnesty. Only problem I see here is that they were released before a criminal trial which opens up a few loopholes according to Russian law. However the dumbshits did not try to persue a civil case for damages in Russian court, which is why they will never see any money for any damages to their rusty barge.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:09 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Apologize for what? GREENPEACE activists violated international law, while in international waters. They should be grateful for the fact that it was shown this unprecedented indulgence. Really - if this were the citizens of Russia, they would be condemned to the fullest. And I am very unhappy - I believe that criminals should be punished.


According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.

And among the group, there were Russian citizens.

So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you :lol:


Ooops, ignore my post above then.

Russia has absolutely nothing to apologize for to anyone in this matter. Doesn't matter what some international court said. In this case it matters what the Russian court said and some common sense.

Criminals with unknown intentions (don't bullshit me on the fact that they had Greenpeace written on their ship or whatever) tried to force their was onto a Russian strategic facility. They were then taken arrested and so was their ship and their accomplices as they were clearly an organised group that was supporting the criminals that were forcing their way onto a Russian strategic facility with unknown intentions.

Completely correct actions on behalf of Russia here up to the amnesty. Only problem I see here is that they were released before a criminal trial which opens up a few loopholes according to Russian law. However the dumbshits did not try to persue a civil case for damages in Russian court, which is why they will never see any money for any damages to their rusty barge.


The same reasoning, the judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea don't agree with your point of view. So can you give me please the legal argument why their verdict is wrong and your point of view is the right one?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:10 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.

And among the group, there were Russian citizens.

So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you :lol:


The statement "Among the perpetrators were Russian - it means all Russian criminals" is a deliberate lie and an attempt to denigrate the Russian.
A typical technique of Western propaganda.

Would not the specific points of international law that is allegedly violated Russia?
I remember that in the situation with the Arctic Sunrise it was not the first provocation, and Russia at first politely warned that attempts to sabotage the work of the oil platform will be regarded as aggression and criminal act. Even the Dutch government appealed, however, the Dutch government ignored all the warnings.


- I said among the group were Russian citizens, not perpetrators and it certainly not means all Russians are criminals, that logic fails on so many levels. So misinterpretation on your side at best...........

- International law Russia violated, for which they were convicted: read the verdict if you are really interested, Google is your friend.

- Dutch government ignoring all warnings? It is not up to the Dutch government to say what a protest must look like, so that is bullshit. The only reason the Dutch government is involved is that Greenpeace ships are registered in The Netherlands (and a couple of Dutch citizens were on board).


You contradict yourself. If the Dutch government had nothing to ship - why the Dutch government initiated arbitration proceedings before the international Tribunal?
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.

And among the group, there were Russian citizens.

So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you :lol:


Ooops, ignore my post above then.

Russia has absolutely nothing to apologize for to anyone in this matter. Doesn't matter what some international court said. In this case it matters what the Russian court said and some common sense.

Criminals with unknown intentions (don't bullshit me on the fact that they had Greenpeace written on their ship or whatever) tried to force their was onto a Russian strategic facility. They were then taken arrested and so was their ship and their accomplices as they were clearly an organised group that was supporting the criminals that were forcing their way onto a Russian strategic facility with unknown intentions.

Completely correct actions on behalf of Russia here up to the amnesty. Only problem I see here is that they were released before a criminal trial which opens up a few loopholes according to Russian law. However the dumbshits did not try to persue a civil case for damages in Russian court, which is why they will never see any money for any damages to their rusty barge.


The same reasoning, the judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea don't agree with your point of view. So can you give me please the legal argument why their verdict is wrong and your point of view is the right one?



22.11.2013 — Today, the international Tribunal for the law of the sea adopted a decision on interim measures on business "Arktik sanrayz", initiated by the Kingdom of the Netherlands. The court ordered that the vessel Arctic sunrise and all persons detained in connection with a dispute must be released, and they should be allowed to leave the territory and Maritime areas under the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation after posting bail in the amount of 3.6 million euros.

The Arctic sunrise is an icebreaker under the flag of the Netherlands in use of the organization Greenpeace international.

According to the report of the Tribunal a request for provisional measures under article 290, paragraph 5, of the UN Convention on the law of the sea, was submitted by the Netherlands on 21 October this year in a dispute with the Russian Federation concerning the arrest and detention of the vessel Arctic sunrise and its crew by the Russian authorities.

A public hearing on the matter was held on Wednesday, November 6, 2012. The Russian Federation informed the Tribunal by note verbale the Embassy of the Russian Federation in Berlin dated 22 October 2013 that it does not intend to participate in the proceedings before the Tribunal.

As you know, on Board the vessel "Arktik sanrayz" which was used by the NGO Greenpeace international to conduct a protest in the Barents sea in relation to the platform Prirazlomnaya, September 19, landed the Russian representatives brought him to the port of Murmansk and detained him.

Exciting last month arbitration against Russia, the Netherlands stated that they are acting in accordance with the UN Convention on the law of the sea and that Russia is arresting and detaining the ship and its crew violated the Convention. The Dutch authorities also requested that the international Tribunal for the law of the sea, operating in Hamburg, Germany, has ordered interim measures to the arbitral proceedings.
Its current decision on provisional measures, the Tribunal adopted by a vote of 19 votes for, two against.

The Russian foreign Ministry in its statement today said that the Russian side did not participate in the proceedings, "because it doesn't consider the situation as a dispute between the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Russian Federation concerning the rights and obligations of the Russian Federation as a coastal state in its exclusive economic zone". This statement says that the Russian side proceeds from the fact that "the situation with the ship Arctic sunrise does not fall under the jurisdiction of the International Tribunal for the law of the sea". It draws attention to the reservation made by Russia upon ratification of the 1982 Convention, according to which, among other things, "it does not take referred to in section 2 of part XV of the Convention procedures leading to binding on the parties decisions in respect of disputes ... relating to activities of law enforcement in relation to the exercise of the sovereign rights and jurisdiction."


In the comments of the Russian foreign Ministry noted that "the Russian Federation will examine the decision of the International Tribunal for the law of the sea and formulate its attitude to it." It expresses the hope that "the Tribunal has approached this case objectively and making a decision took into account all aspects of his account of the incident, including, failure by the flag state with its international legal obligations and a violation of the vessel "Arktik sanrayz" under the UN Convention on the law of the sea 1982, conditions for the realization of the right of freedom of navigation in the exclusive economic zone of a foreign state".

The Russian foreign Ministry notes that "taken by the Russian authorities actions in respect of the vessel "Arktik sanrayz" and members of his team was caused by the illegal activities aboard the vessel of persons who flagrantly violated the norms of international and Russian law, in particular in the field of safety of navigation, and safety of the Prirazlomnaya platform".

It also States that "the ship "Arctic sunrise" was directly used as a tool to commit unacceptable from the standpoint of international law and a criminal offense according to Russian legislation acts - on Board in close proximity to the platform were taken to the people and speedboats, which was an attempt of penetration on the platform."
http://www.un.org/russian/news/story.as ... jBgElVl-Uk
 
tu204
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:07 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

According to whom did Greenpeace activist violate international law? According to international judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia violated international law, not Greenpeace.

And among the group, there were Russian citizens.

So if you believe the criminals should be punished, the criminals are proven to be the Russians, so kuddos to you :lol:


Ooops, ignore my post above then.

Russia has absolutely nothing to apologize for to anyone in this matter. Doesn't matter what some international court said. In this case it matters what the Russian court said and some common sense.

Criminals with unknown intentions (don't bullshit me on the fact that they had Greenpeace written on their ship or whatever) tried to force their was onto a Russian strategic facility. They were then taken arrested and so was their ship and their accomplices as they were clearly an organised group that was supporting the criminals that were forcing their way onto a Russian strategic facility with unknown intentions.

Completely correct actions on behalf of Russia here up to the amnesty. Only problem I see here is that they were released before a criminal trial which opens up a few loopholes according to Russian law. However the dumbshits did not try to persue a civil case for damages in Russian court, which is why they will never see any money for any damages to their rusty barge.


The same reasoning, the judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea don't agree with your point of view. So can you give me please the legal argument why their verdict is wrong and your point of view is the right one?


I did. Even your tribunal is not disputing the fact that in Russia's Exclusive Economic Zone the platform is Russian Sovreign Territory as are several miles of water around it. These clowns, particularly the ones with grappling hooks, tried to illegaly and agressively gain access to it (attack). Also note that under Russian regulations an oil platform is considered a critical infrastructural facility, like a nuclear power plant, a railroad or a pipeline. Therefore the operators of the platform and the Russian Forces had the right to protect it.

Now although the ship itself stayed a couple miles away, this is completely irrelevant as it and those aboard it were parties to the crime. The same as Somalian pirates launching attack boats from a "mothership", not only the attack boats are fair game, but so is the mothership.

So everything here is perfectly legal.

Now what I meant about loopholes in the Russian law: Since there was an amnesty, there was no conviction on any charge. Therefore everyone and everything arrested (minus illegal goods - be it drugs or weapons or whatever) is returned to whomever claims ownership at the time of arrest or if there are disputes, as the court decides. The condition of the ship was no doubt documented at the time of arrest (even if they tow your car here, the officer that signs off on it takes a shitload of photos and notes any significant dents or damage).

So when they got their shit back, at that time or in a reasonable timeframe afterwards they had to document any damage to their property and launch a civil suit in the local court at the district (region) where the arrest took place (Murmansk) and against the party that made the arrest, probably the Murmansk Prosecutor's Office, Murmansk Transport Police or the FSB for Murmansk Oblast. I have no clue who made that actual arrest and was responsible for the ship, but that would be clear from the papers documenting the arrest.

To sum it up, if they actually cared about getting reimbursed for damages, they could have hired a half-assed lawyer that barely passed Law School in Russia and followed the above procedure and to a high degree would have gotten some of their money at least. (Btw my little lifehack from above is now useless, I think the limitations for such a claim is 3 years). So they didn't do this and this is why they will see about 0 Dollars/Euros/Roubles :lol:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:32 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

You believe what you want to believe, I realize that you will never be convinced if Russians are convicted in court, in absence probably. But you know that Russians were part of the initial investigation team, right? So no point in debating it with you since you will never admit and be convinced by any investigation besides the Russian one.
We have lost 198 soles in this mass murder and another 100 from other countries, may we please give a damn? Quite insensitive from you.

As for eastern Ukraine, if Putin will end sending Russian soldiers to the region for a nice holiday, of course, the soldiers are allowed to take a vehicle - tanks and the like - with them, and of course everybody understands that they are also allowed to take a weapon with them, it is rather dangerous there, so they need something to defend themselves. Such a shame your Russians boys are dying there, but your Putin doesn't pay homage to them since he can't admit he sends his army into Ukraine. But the OVSE is watching.




As for eastern Ukraine, if Putin will end sending Russian soldiers to the region for a nice holiday, of course, the soldiers are allowed to take a vehicle - tanks and the like - with them, and of course everybody understands that they are also allowed to take a weapon with them, it is rather dangerous there, so they need something to defend themselves. Such a shame your Russians boys are dying there, but your Putin doesn't pay homage to them since he can't admit he sends
his army into Ukraine. But the OVSE is watching.

first find the Russian soldiers with equipment.
Whether there is Russian army - Ukraine would have smoothed out a couple of weeks. One of the complaints about Putin, by the way, from the Russian people is that in the situation in the Donbas had not intervened, our troops, and dont knocked the crap out of the Ukrainian government.


https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/worl ... -osce.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30039004
http://eastwest.eu/en/opinions/riding-t ... in-ukraine
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... ce-ukraine

Putin admits Russian military presence in Ukraine for first time
Russian president concedes military intelligence officers were operating in the country but insists it’s not the same as regular Russian troops


You probably will brush aside those pesky western media and the OCSE mission. But can you do the same with Putin himself?

And ok, once again you say that Russia should go to war with Ukraine. If that is your mentality, you are basically at the level of "whoever is the strongest gets his way". And there you have the basic difference between you and me: I believe in the rule of law, you believe in the right of the strongest (tribal warfare and nationalism).

Nationalism can be a terrible thing, especially accepting no criticism to your country and the men who run it, even though confronted with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And you, my friend, have displayed this perfectly, to put it simple for google translate: Russia good; rest of the world bad.

To the question about Ukraine, the situation there now and the OSCE. That's only half an hour ago, my friend texted me about live in Luhansk region now:
[09:49] xxx: yesterday Ukrainians Pervomaisk to Stakhanov was fired, including from 152mm
[09:49] xxx: among other things, came to school and hospital
[09:50] xxx: last year in pervomaisk a kindergarten showed that twice repaired after attacks
[09:51] xxx: but the herd of those blind idiots with the flags of the OSCE riding, 'control' something there

I get the information not from deceitful Western media, or the false report of the OSCE. could I tell the people who live right there - in the East of Ukraine.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:35 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Ooops, ignore my post above then.

Russia has absolutely nothing to apologize for to anyone in this matter. Doesn't matter what some international court said. In this case it matters what the Russian court said and some common sense.

Criminals with unknown intentions (don't bullshit me on the fact that they had Greenpeace written on their ship or whatever) tried to force their was onto a Russian strategic facility. They were then taken arrested and so was their ship and their accomplices as they were clearly an organised group that was supporting the criminals that were forcing their way onto a Russian strategic facility with unknown intentions.

Completely correct actions on behalf of Russia here up to the amnesty. Only problem I see here is that they were released before a criminal trial which opens up a few loopholes according to Russian law. However the dumbshits did not try to persue a civil case for damages in Russian court, which is why they will never see any money for any damages to their rusty barge.


The same reasoning, the judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea don't agree with your point of view. So can you give me please the legal argument why their verdict is wrong and your point of view is the right one?


I did. Even your tribunal is not disputing the fact that in Russia's Exclusive Economic Zone the platform is Russian Sovreign Territory as are several miles of water around it. These clowns, particularly the ones with grappling hooks, tried to illegaly and agressively gain access to it (attack). Also note that under Russian regulations an oil platform is considered a critical infrastructural facility, like a nuclear power plant, a railroad or a pipeline. Therefore the operators of the platform and the Russian Forces had the right to protect it.

Now although the ship itself stayed a couple miles away, this is completely irrelevant as it and those aboard it were parties to the crime. The same as Somalian pirates launching attack boats from a "mothership", not only the attack boats are fair game, but so is the mothership.

So everything here is perfectly legal.

Now what I meant about loopholes in the Russian law: Since there was an amnesty, there was no conviction on any charge. Therefore everyone and everything arrested (minus illegal goods - be it drugs or weapons or whatever) is returned to whomever claims ownership at the time of arrest or if there are disputes, as the court decides. The condition of the ship was no doubt documented at the time of arrest (even if they tow your car here, the officer that signs off on it takes a shitload of photos and notes any significant dents or damage).

So when they got their shit back, at that time or in a reasonable timeframe afterwards they had to document any damage to their property and launch a civil suit in the local court at the district (region) where the arrest took place (Murmansk) and against the party that made the arrest, probably the Murmansk Prosecutor's Office, Murmansk Transport Police or the FSB for Murmansk Oblast. I have no clue who made that actual arrest and was responsible for the ship, but that would be clear from the papers documenting the arrest.

To sum it up, if they actually cared about getting reimbursed for damages, they could have hired a half-assed lawyer that barely passed Law School in Russia and followed the above procedure and to a high degree would have gotten some of their money at least. (Btw my little lifehack from above is now useless, I think the limitations for such a claim is 3 years). So they didn't do this and this is why they will see about 0 Dollars/Euros/Roubles :lol:


So do you accept all the conclusions of the international court of none, you can't have it both ways.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:39 am

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
first find the Russian soldiers with equipment.
Whether there is Russian army - Ukraine would have smoothed out a couple of weeks. One of the complaints about Putin, by the way, from the Russian people is that in the situation in the Donbas had not intervened, our troops, and dont knocked the crap out of the Ukrainian government.


https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/worl ... -osce.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30039004
http://eastwest.eu/en/opinions/riding-t ... in-ukraine
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... ce-ukraine

Putin admits Russian military presence in Ukraine for first time
Russian president concedes military intelligence officers were operating in the country but insists it’s not the same as regular Russian troops


You probably will brush aside those pesky western media and the OCSE mission. But can you do the same with Putin himself?

And ok, once again you say that Russia should go to war with Ukraine. If that is your mentality, you are basically at the level of "whoever is the strongest gets his way". And there you have the basic difference between you and me: I believe in the rule of law, you believe in the right of the strongest (tribal warfare and nationalism).

Nationalism can be a terrible thing, especially accepting no criticism to your country and the men who run it, even though confronted with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And you, my friend, have displayed this perfectly, to put it simple for google translate: Russia good; rest of the world bad.

To the question about Ukraine, the situation there now and the OSCE. That's only half an hour ago, my friend texted me about live in Luhansk region now:
[09:49] xxx: yesterday Ukrainians Pervomaisk to Stakhanov was fired, including from 152mm
[09:49] xxx: among other things, came to school and hospital
[09:50] xxx: last year in pervomaisk a kindergarten showed that twice repaired after attacks
[09:51] xxx: but the herd of those blind idiots with the flags of the OSCE riding, 'control' something there

I get the information not from deceitful Western media, or the false report of the OSCE. could I tell the people who live right there - in the East of Ukraine.


I perfectly accept that the Ukraine forces aren't the perfect gentlemen's either. But the main point is, Russia should bud out of Ukraine and then we, as an international community, should work to a workable solution. As long as the Russians keep these opposition forces fed with military goods and other help, it will never be resolved and your family isn't helped with that either.
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/22/worl ... -osce.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30039004
http://eastwest.eu/en/opinions/riding-t ... in-ukraine
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... ce-ukraine



You probably will brush aside those pesky western media and the OCSE mission. But can you do the same with Putin himself?

And ok, once again you say that Russia should go to war with Ukraine. If that is your mentality, you are basically at the level of "whoever is the strongest gets his way". And there you have the basic difference between you and me: I believe in the rule of law, you believe in the right of the strongest (tribal warfare and nationalism).

Nationalism can be a terrible thing, especially accepting no criticism to your country and the men who run it, even though confronted with overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And you, my friend, have displayed this perfectly, to put it simple for google translate: Russia good; rest of the world bad.

To the question about Ukraine, the situation there now and the OSCE. That's only half an hour ago, my friend texted me about live in Luhansk region now:
[09:49] xxx: yesterday Ukrainians Pervomaisk to Stakhanov was fired, including from 152mm
[09:49] xxx: among other things, came to school and hospital
[09:50] xxx: last year in pervomaisk a kindergarten showed that twice repaired after attacks
[09:51] xxx: but the herd of those blind idiots with the flags of the OSCE riding, 'control' something there

I get the information not from deceitful Western media, or the false report of the OSCE. could I tell the people who live right there - in the East of Ukraine.


I perfectly accept that the Ukraine forces aren't the perfect gentlemen's either. But the main point is, Russia should bud out of Ukraine and then we, as an international community, should work to a workable solution. As long as the Russians keep these opposition forces fed with military goods and other help, it will never be resolved and your family isn't helped with that either.


United States supports the opposition around the world. NATO supports Ukraine. Why Russia should not support the militia in the Lugansk and Donetsk republics? I remind you that the situation in Eastern Ukraine is entirely the fault of the Ukrainian government. Instead of a referendum they sent troops to Donbass, hoping to crush the opponents by force. This did not work - now there's a war. Let NATO withdraws from Ukraine their units, stop the supply of weapons, recognizes the right of the people of Donbass for self-determination and dump the fuck out of Eastern Europe with their military bases. Then it will be possible the dialogue between Russia and NATO. And while we have good reason not to trust you, and to consider any acts of aggression towards Russia.The United States supports the opposition around the world. NATO supports Ukraine. Why Russia should not support the militia in the Lugansk and Donetsk republics? I remind you that the situation in Eastern Ukraine is entirely the fault of the Ukrainian government. Instead of a referendum they sent troops to Donbass, hoping to crush the opponents by force. This did not work - now there's a war. Let NATO withdraws from Ukraine their units, stop the supply of weapons, recognizes the right of the people of Donbass for self-determination and dump the fuck out of Eastern Europe with their military bases. Then it will be possible the dialogue between Russia and NATO. And while we have good reason not to trust you, and to consider any acts of aggression towards Russia.
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:39 pm

Fine, then the situation will never be resolved. NATO isn't really supporting Ukraine as such.
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:48 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Why Russia should not support the militia in the Lugansk and Donetsk republics?

Well at least you admit that Russia is involved in the conflict and is supporting them. That's a good start.

Tugg
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:51 pm

Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Why Russia should not support the militia in the Lugansk and Donetsk republics?

Well at least you admit that Russia is involved in the conflict and is supporting them. That's a good start.

Tugg

Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.
 
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:59 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Why Russia should not support the militia in the Lugansk and Donetsk republics?

Well at least you admit that Russia is involved in the conflict and is supporting them. That's a good start.

Tugg

Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.

I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:20 pm

Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Well at least you admit that Russia is involved in the conflict and is supporting them. That's a good start.

Tugg

Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.

I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.

Tugg


And one BUK missile system :(
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:52 pm

Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Well at least you admit that Russia is involved in the conflict and is supporting them. That's a good start.

Tugg

Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.

I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.

Tugg

These tanks were captured by the militia from storage facilities. Ukraine was the second largest military grouping in the Soviet Union, where tanks were about 10 thousand, you wonder where did it all go?
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.

I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.

Tugg


And one BUK missile system :(

system "BUK" in large quantities is in the Ukraine. In 2016 Ukraine had 72 complex "BUK-M1" in service.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:21 am

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.

Tugg


And one BUK missile system :(

system "BUK" in large quantities is in the Ukraine. In 2016 Ukraine had 72 complex "BUK-M1" in service.


So there were 73 BUK systems in Ukraine on Juli, 17th 2014.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Tugger
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:46 am

Scorpius wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.

I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.

Tugg

These tanks were captured by the militia from storage facilities. Ukraine was the second largest military grouping in the Soviet Union, where tanks were about 10 thousand, you wonder where did it all go?

:rotfl: "From Russia with truth" :rotfl: You are very persistent.
Ukraine had some 25 T-64's and no T-72's or T-80's. So apparently you are again stating that Russia has no effectie control over its arsenal. Any military that "LOSES" (sorry, hold on... :rotfl: ...OK. I think I can continue...) 400+ current main battle tanks tanks is a failing military. So you are stating that Russia's military is failing? ....Sure...

https://russia.tv/video/show/brand_id/6 ... e/picture/

So how do separatists get hold of so many front line MBT's when Russian records show they only have 25 older models at the time (and Russia never sold Ukraine the T-80).
http://www.rusin.ru/downloads/vsulogs_20_p2.jpg

But perhaps you are acknowledging Russia's failing military ability. (I doubt that BTW).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:14 am

Don't you know that if currently serving Russian military is allowed to take military equipment, including tanks, with them on holidays. What they do with this, is not Putin's fold.
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tu204
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The same reasoning, the judges of the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea don't agree with your point of view. So can you give me please the legal argument why their verdict is wrong and your point of view is the right one?


I did. Even your tribunal is not disputing the fact that in Russia's Exclusive Economic Zone the platform is Russian Sovreign Territory as are several miles of water around it. These clowns, particularly the ones with grappling hooks, tried to illegaly and agressively gain access to it (attack). Also note that under Russian regulations an oil platform is considered a critical infrastructural facility, like a nuclear power plant, a railroad or a pipeline. Therefore the operators of the platform and the Russian Forces had the right to protect it.

Now although the ship itself stayed a couple miles away, this is completely irrelevant as it and those aboard it were parties to the crime. The same as Somalian pirates launching attack boats from a "mothership", not only the attack boats are fair game, but so is the mothership.

So everything here is perfectly legal.

Now what I meant about loopholes in the Russian law: Since there was an amnesty, there was no conviction on any charge. Therefore everyone and everything arrested (minus illegal goods - be it drugs or weapons or whatever) is returned to whomever claims ownership at the time of arrest or if there are disputes, as the court decides. The condition of the ship was no doubt documented at the time of arrest (even if they tow your car here, the officer that signs off on it takes a shitload of photos and notes any significant dents or damage).

So when they got their shit back, at that time or in a reasonable timeframe afterwards they had to document any damage to their property and launch a civil suit in the local court at the district (region) where the arrest took place (Murmansk) and against the party that made the arrest, probably the Murmansk Prosecutor's Office, Murmansk Transport Police or the FSB for Murmansk Oblast. I have no clue who made that actual arrest and was responsible for the ship, but that would be clear from the papers documenting the arrest.

To sum it up, if they actually cared about getting reimbursed for damages, they could have hired a half-assed lawyer that barely passed Law School in Russia and followed the above procedure and to a high degree would have gotten some of their money at least. (Btw my little lifehack from above is now useless, I think the limitations for such a claim is 3 years). So they didn't do this and this is why they will see about 0 Dollars/Euros/Roubles :lol:


So do you accept all the conclusions of the international court of none, you can't have it both ways.


No, I do not accept them.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:00 am

Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Well at least you admit that Russia is involved in the conflict and is supporting them. That's a good start.

Tugg

Russia is not involved in the conflict. It only supports the rebels with the supply of humanitarian goods, may be military advisers. In fact, you have not answered the question why Russia can't do it.

I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.

Tugg



Meh, I don't see much issue with giving the opposition arms. If it's ok for the US to arm the Syrian opposition (who I might add took out a Russian helicopter with it and handed a bunch of the "gifts" over to ISIS), I don't see what's wrong with giving the guys in Donetsk and Lugansk some hardware to fight back with.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:31 am

So no problem when the opposition (or regular Russian soldiers) took out an airliner with 298 completely innocent people in it.

Ad. 1. two completely different situations, fighting ISIS and fighting and destabilizing a country which Russians took part of
Ad. 2. Whataboutism again, must be your favorite trick to use
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:17 am

Russian ambassador to the Netherlands denied fake news targeted to The Netherlands. So I guess our minister of Justice was wrong because we have to believe what the ambassador says, don't we?

https://www.nu.nl/buitenland/5050307/ru ... nging.html
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:21 am

Scorpius wrote:
These tanks were captured by the militia from storage facilities. Ukraine was the second largest military grouping in the Soviet Union, where tanks were about 10 thousand, you wonder where did it all go?


What I never saw mentioned is numbers on Ukraine military personnel going with the separatist movement.
The "Russian Minority" in Ukraine is 1/5th of the population!
( I'd expect a higher percentage from industrial centers in the forces?)
My impression is that the "traditional" military forces in Ukraine aren't really gung ho on the current
nationalist agenda. ( reason why all the (Svoboda) armed fascists inducted themselves into the activity.)
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Re: From Russia with truth

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:20 pm

Tugger wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Tugger wrote:
I didn't ask the question. But interestingly with your reply, you demonstrate that Russia has terrible control of its military hardware. It shows a great weakness in the Russian military. As an example Russia has lost some 700 tanks to the local militias.

Tugg

These tanks were captured by the militia from storage facilities. Ukraine was the second largest military grouping in the Soviet Union, where tanks were about 10 thousand, you wonder where did it all go?

:rotfl: "From Russia with truth" :rotfl: You are very persistent.
Ukraine had some 25 T-64's and no T-72's or T-80's. So apparently you are again stating that Russia has no effectie control over its arsenal. Any military that "LOSES" (sorry, hold on... :rotfl: ...OK. I think I can continue...) 400+ current main battle tanks tanks is a failing military. So you are stating that Russia's military is failing? ....Sure...

https://russia.tv/video/show/brand_id/6 ... e/picture/

So how do separatists get hold of so many front line MBT's when Russian records show they only have 25 older models at the time (and Russia never sold Ukraine the T-80).
http://www.rusin.ru/downloads/vsulogs_20_p2.jpg

But perhaps you are acknowledging Russia's failing military ability. (I doubt that BTW).

Tugg

You say that Ukraine has no T-72 and T-80, but it's a lie. These tanks were in service with the Ukrainian army, their great number was put in reserve after the collapse of the Soviet Union. T-80UD, just so you know, was produced in a tank factory in Kharkiv. And now you claim that they were in the Ukraine supposedly was not. Why are you lying?
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:09 am

I have spent several hours over the past couple days reading all 10 pages of this thread and I have to say I am completely fascinated!

I know that information within Russia is suppressed and the press is censored to a degree, however, I have always just assumed that because of the internet people have access to information and media sources from around the globe so they are able to see past the propaganda and suppression of information. This thread has proven that I am either wrong or that there is just a portion of the population that has no desire to see past what the Russian Government would like for them to believe. I must admit that I was most intrigued by the position that the OP took on the conditions under communist rule during the days of the USSR. I don't want to go back and find the exact quote but it was something like "everyone was taken care of and they were the best conditions anyone could ask for" or something to that effect. It is no secret that people were actually starving to death and many people were living off of the bare minimum. The most basic medical conditions could end a person's life because treatment was not possible for most people. These facts are common knowledge. There are pictures, witnesses, books, documentaries, and any other kind of proof you might seek out showing this information to be true. At the time of course the USSR did not want its citizens to know that the people were all living in these conditions and that people in the Western world (specifically USA) were living in MUCH better conditions. I understand why people living back then did not know of the full story of what was happening, however, there is no reason that someone living in Russia today should not know the truth of the conditions back then with all of the information that is available.

It is important for suppressive governments to always keep their population in the dark about conditions in the rest of the world in order for their tactics to work. The Government of the suppressive nation has to keep the people thinking that the rest of the world is worse off than they are or the program will fail as people start to rise up and make demands of the government to improve conditions. This is why communism demands that the people be cut off from the rest of the world to work and in the history of the world so far has not worked out too well. Anyways I don't want to go down that road right now because it will take us WAY far off topic, however, getting back to the point I am just very surprised that the OP is not better educated as to the history of his country with all of the information that is available here on the internet.
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L410Turbolet
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:45 am

He is a Kremlin troll. Not a very convincing one. That's my impression.
 
WIederling
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:38 am

ual747den wrote:
This thread has proven that I am either wrong or that there is just a portion of the population that has no desire to see past what the Russian Government would like for them to believe.


Turn it around and you are probably nearer the truth.

* After Wiedervereinigung I won some new institutional customers in NeuFünfLand and got to know some people working there rather well.

Interesting that their view on information provided both from GDR official channels and what they got via Westfernsehen was viewed
much more critical and cynical than I ever noticed in the West. Here the image was much more black (East) and white(West).
Murphy is an optimist
 
tu204
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:56 pm

ual747den wrote:
I have spent several hours over the past couple days reading all 10 pages of this thread and I have to say I am completely fascinated!

I know that information within Russia is suppressed and the press is censored to a degree, however, I have always just assumed that because of the internet people have access to information and media sources from around the globe so they are able to see past the propaganda and suppression of information. This thread has proven that I am either wrong or that there is just a portion of the population that has no desire to see past what the Russian Government would like for them to believe. I must admit that I was most intrigued by the position that the OP took on the conditions under communist rule during the days of the USSR. I don't want to go back and find the exact quote but it was something like "everyone was taken care of and they were the best conditions anyone could ask for" or something to that effect. It is no secret that people were actually starving to death and many people were living off of the bare minimum. The most basic medical conditions could end a person's life because treatment was not possible for most people. These facts are common knowledge. There are pictures, witnesses, books, documentaries, and any other kind of proof you might seek out showing this information to be true. At the time of course the USSR did not want its citizens to know that the people were all living in these conditions and that people in the Western world (specifically USA) were living in MUCH better conditions. I understand why people living back then did not know of the full story of what was happening, however, there is no reason that someone living in Russia today should not know the truth of the conditions back then with all of the information that is available.

It is important for suppressive governments to always keep their population in the dark about conditions in the rest of the world in order for their tactics to work. The Government of the suppressive nation has to keep the people thinking that the rest of the world is worse off than they are or the program will fail as people start to rise up and make demands of the government to improve conditions. This is why communism demands that the people be cut off from the rest of the world to work and in the history of the world so far has not worked out too well. Anyways I don't want to go down that road right now because it will take us WAY far off topic, however, getting back to the point I am just very surprised that the OP is not better educated as to the history of his country with all of the information that is available here on the internet.



The point exactly that I wanted to make.

You guys are so brainwashed by your propaganda that you do not accept any version of the truth other than your own. I am living here, a citizen of Canada and the Russian Federation and I am saying that in the upcomming elections I will give my vote, without any sort of pressure to Vladimir Putin. Just because with every year life is getting better here. Comparing this to my friends back in Canada there is something to compare to.

Why do you think that I have no access to information that would make me think otherwise?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: From Russia with truth

Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So no problem when the opposition (or regular Russian soldiers) took out an airliner with 298 completely innocent people in it.

Ad. 1. two completely different situations, fighting ISIS and fighting and destabilizing a country which Russians took part of
Ad. 2. Whataboutism again, must be your favorite trick to use


1 - Absoulutely the same. You want to support people that are against the government, go ahead.

But be prepared that others will do the same in another place.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:28 am

ual747den wrote:
I have spent several hours over the past couple days reading all 10 pages of this thread and I have to say I am completely fascinated!

I know that information within Russia is suppressed and the press is censored to a degree, however, I have always just assumed that because of the internet people have access to information and media sources from around the globe so they are able to see past the propaganda and suppression of information. This thread has proven that I am either wrong or that there is just a portion of the population that has no desire to see past what the Russian Government would like for them to believe. I must admit that I was most intrigued by the position that the OP took on the conditions under communist rule during the days of the USSR. I don't want to go back and find the exact quote but it was something like "everyone was taken care of and they were the best conditions anyone could ask for" or something to that effect. It is no secret that people were actually starving to death and many people were living off of the bare minimum. The most basic medical conditions could end a person's life because treatment was not possible for most people. These facts are common knowledge. There are pictures, witnesses, books, documentaries, and any other kind of proof you might seek out showing this information to be true. At the time of course the USSR did not want its citizens to know that the people were all living in these conditions and that people in the Western world (specifically USA) were living in MUCH better conditions. I understand why people living back then did not know of the full story of what was happening, however, there is no reason that someone living in Russia today should not know the truth of the conditions back then with all of the information that is available.

It is important for suppressive governments to always keep their population in the dark about conditions in the rest of the world in order for their tactics to work. The Government of the suppressive nation has to keep the people thinking that the rest of the world is worse off than they are or the program will fail as people start to rise up and make demands of the government to improve conditions. This is why communism demands that the people be cut off from the rest of the world to work and in the history of the world so far has not worked out too well. Anyways I don't want to go down that road right now because it will take us WAY far off topic, however, getting back to the point I am just very surprised that the OP is not better educated as to the history of his country with all of the information that is available here on the internet.


You see, your basic misconception is that you think people in the USSR lived worse than in the West. Although it was not so. The standard of living after the Soviet collapse is strongly reduced. Today, in many ways, we just go back to the level of the eighties.
Again - you believe if the people here don't know something or supposedly they have brainwashed. I assure you that it is not. You persist in trying to show as if the supporters of the Soviet Union or don't know something (which is wrong), or they have been brainwashed (and this is not so). Have you ever thought that the Soviet Union would have as many supporters if he was even half as bad as you imagine it, reading a couple of books and watching a few TV shows, where you talked about the terrible commies?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:55 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Again - you believe if the people here don't know something or supposedly they have brainwashed. I assure you that it is not.


:lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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ual747den
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:18 pm

tu204 wrote:
ual747den wrote:
I have spent several hours over the past couple days reading all 10 pages of this thread and I have to say I am completely fascinated!

I know that information within Russia is suppressed and the press is censored to a degree, however, I have always just assumed that because of the internet people have access to information and media sources from around the globe so they are able to see past the propaganda and suppression of information. This thread has proven that I am either wrong or that there is just a portion of the population that has no desire to see past what the Russian Government would like for them to believe. I must admit that I was most intrigued by the position that the OP took on the conditions under communist rule during the days of the USSR. I don't want to go back and find the exact quote but it was something like "everyone was taken care of and they were the best conditions anyone could ask for" or something to that effect. It is no secret that people were actually starving to death and many people were living off of the bare minimum. The most basic medical conditions could end a person's life because treatment was not possible for most people. These facts are common knowledge. There are pictures, witnesses, books, documentaries, and any other kind of proof you might seek out showing this information to be true. At the time of course the USSR did not want its citizens to know that the people were all living in these conditions and that people in the Western world (specifically USA) were living in MUCH better conditions. I understand why people living back then did not know of the full story of what was happening, however, there is no reason that someone living in Russia today should not know the truth of the conditions back then with all of the information that is available.

It is important for suppressive governments to always keep their population in the dark about conditions in the rest of the world in order for their tactics to work. The Government of the suppressive nation has to keep the people thinking that the rest of the world is worse off than they are or the program will fail as people start to rise up and make demands of the government to improve conditions. This is why communism demands that the people be cut off from the rest of the world to work and in the history of the world so far has not worked out too well. Anyways I don't want to go down that road right now because it will take us WAY far off topic, however, getting back to the point I am just very surprised that the OP is not better educated as to the history of his country with all of the information that is available here on the internet.



The point exactly that I wanted to make.

You guys are so brainwashed by your propaganda that you do not accept any version of the truth other than your own. I am living here, a citizen of Canada and the Russian Federation and I am saying that in the upcomming elections I will give my vote, without any sort of pressure to Vladimir Putin. Just because with every year life is getting better here. Comparing this to my friends back in Canada there is something to compare to.

Why do you think that I have no access to information that would make me think otherwise?


Part of your problem is that you think we care that you will vote for Putin, we don't! People in the West and USA specifically don't really care if Putin remains in power or not. It is not something that we think about as part of our daily life. In fact we don't think about Russia at all in our daily life, the only reason that Russia gets any time in our media at all is because of the Trump investigation and that has very little to do with Russia and everything to do with wanting to find a reason to remove Trump from office.

Russia isn't really a threat to America, no one is worried that we will end up at war other than a few crazy people whom you seem to be a part of. Russia's power on the world stage is VERY limited. If Russia became a problem we could easily use economic sanctions to control them without any bombs going off. Putin is not stupid, he has no desire to cause problems with the West, he just needs to keep up the appearance that the West is against Russia to remain in power. This is how all dictatorships work, you have to have an active enemy that you are protecting the people against in order to retain al the power and take away people freedom. Putin does this very well because people like you let him.
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Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:26 pm

ual747den wrote:
tu204 wrote:
ual747den wrote:
I have spent several hours over the past couple days reading all 10 pages of this thread and I have to say I am completely fascinated!

I know that information within Russia is suppressed and the press is censored to a degree, however, I have always just assumed that because of the internet people have access to information and media sources from around the globe so they are able to see past the propaganda and suppression of information. This thread has proven that I am either wrong or that there is just a portion of the population that has no desire to see past what the Russian Government would like for them to believe. I must admit that I was most intrigued by the position that the OP took on the conditions under communist rule during the days of the USSR. I don't want to go back and find the exact quote but it was something like "everyone was taken care of and they were the best conditions anyone could ask for" or something to that effect. It is no secret that people were actually starving to death and many people were living off of the bare minimum. The most basic medical conditions could end a person's life because treatment was not possible for most people. These facts are common knowledge. There are pictures, witnesses, books, documentaries, and any other kind of proof you might seek out showing this information to be true. At the time of course the USSR did not want its citizens to know that the people were all living in these conditions and that people in the Western world (specifically USA) were living in MUCH better conditions. I understand why people living back then did not know of the full story of what was happening, however, there is no reason that someone living in Russia today should not know the truth of the conditions back then with all of the information that is available.

It is important for suppressive governments to always keep their population in the dark about conditions in the rest of the world in order for their tactics to work. The Government of the suppressive nation has to keep the people thinking that the rest of the world is worse off than they are or the program will fail as people start to rise up and make demands of the government to improve conditions. This is why communism demands that the people be cut off from the rest of the world to work and in the history of the world so far has not worked out too well. Anyways I don't want to go down that road right now because it will take us WAY far off topic, however, getting back to the point I am just very surprised that the OP is not better educated as to the history of his country with all of the information that is available here on the internet.



The point exactly that I wanted to make.

You guys are so brainwashed by your propaganda that you do not accept any version of the truth other than your own. I am living here, a citizen of Canada and the Russian Federation and I am saying that in the upcomming elections I will give my vote, without any sort of pressure to Vladimir Putin. Just because with every year life is getting better here. Comparing this to my friends back in Canada there is something to compare to.

Why do you think that I have no access to information that would make me think otherwise?


Part of your problem is that you think we care that you will vote for Putin, we don't! People in the West and USA specifically don't really care if Putin remains in power or not. It is not something that we think about as part of our daily life. In fact we don't think about Russia at all in our daily life, the only reason that Russia gets any time in our media at all is because of the Trump investigation and that has very little to do with Russia and everything to do with wanting to find a reason to remove Trump from office.

Russia isn't really a threat to America, no one is worried that we will end up at war other than a few crazy people whom you seem to be a part of. Russia's power on the world stage is VERY limited. If Russia became a problem we could easily use economic sanctions to control them without any bombs going off. Putin is not stupid, he has no desire to cause problems with the West, he just needs to keep up the appearance that the West is against Russia to remain in power. This is how all dictatorships work, you have to have an active enemy that you are protecting the people against in order to retain al the power and take away people freedom. Putin does this very well because people like you let him.


In the case of the U.S. economic sanctions risk of losing 60% of the Titan for Boeing, engines for missiles, access to the ISS and many other things. The sticks have two ends, and no country in the world dares to threaten Russia. Understand this simple fact and maybe you will leave the pink world of illusion, where a country with enormous resources and territory can be something to limit some sanctions. It won't work.
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:33 pm

Scorpius wrote:

You see, your basic misconception is that you think people in the USSR lived worse than in the West. Although it was not so.


Seriously, who do you think you will convince with such fairy tales? Those young enough not to remember the "glorious" USSR?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:44 pm

Scorpius wrote:
The sticks have two ends, and no country in the world dares to threaten Russia.


Nobody in the west wants to threaten Russia, it is all in your mind, Russia aint that important.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:07 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

You see, your basic misconception is that you think people in the USSR lived worse than in the West. Although it was not so.


Seriously, who do you think you will convince with such fairy tales? Those young enough not to remember the "glorious" USSR?


Seriously, we have to understand that you never even been to the USSR, so your "peer review" not worth a damn. You then tell scary tales about the USSR, which never was. Maybe someone in the West believes, but I lived in the USSR, and many of my friends and my relatives. I know that in reality the image of the Soviet Union distributed in the West, has nothing to do with the real state of the USSR.
 
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:10 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
The sticks have two ends, and no country in the world dares to threaten Russia.


Nobody in the west wants to threaten Russia, it is all in your mind, Russia aint that important.

The expansion of NATO to the East, which is contrary to the promises made in 1989, and attempts to destabilize the situation in the former Soviet Union tell me that you're lying. OK, so you're not lying - you can really believe in this nonsense about the supposedly democratic military bases. Lying to your policy, in addition to washing your brains with propaganda and you believe them.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:25 pm

Megalomania............

Contradixie in terminis: either I am lying, which means I know the truth and I consciously telling you something else or I am brainwashed with propaganda and I believe this propaganda and thus I am not lying. You can't have it both, so what is it my Russian friend?

The economy of the CCCP (GDP per capita):
$5,800 (1982 est.) (Nominal; 32nd)
$9,211 (1991 est.) (GNP; 28th)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_o ... viet_Union

By comparisment:
USA: 14.438,98 USD (1982); 24.180 USD (1991)
The Netherlands: 10.931,34 USD (1982); 21.454,86 USD (1991)

Yeah, the people in the USSR were as rich as the people in the west................... Damn I must be brainwashed to think otherwise.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Megalomania............

Contradixie in terminis: either I am lying, which means I know the truth and I consciously telling you something else or I am brainwashed with propaganda and I believe this propaganda and thus I am not lying. You can't have it both, so what is it my Russian friend?

The economy of the CCCP (GDP per capita):
$5,800 (1982 est.) (Nominal; 32nd)
$9,211 (1991 est.) (GNP; 28th)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_o ... viet_Union

By comparisment:
USA: 14.438,98 USD (1982); 24.180 USD (1991)
The Netherlands: 10.931,34 USD (1982); 21.454,86 USD (1991)

Yeah, the people in the USSR were as rich as the people in the west................... Damn I must be brainwashed to think otherwise.


Why to consider the GDP in dollars is stupid?

The cost of surgery laparotomy in USA
Image
Image
Image

The cost of surgery laparotomy in Russia: for free in a public hospital. In private clinics the cost is ~$500.

If we do conditionally thousand operations in the United States and operations in Russia, the boost to GDP will be US $55 029 310, and in Russia only $500 000. And that is assuming that Russia will operate only in private clinics. An equal volume of works and services, in the GDP statistics Russia will give US 1:110.

It's everything you need to know about the rating of countries by GDP.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:58 pm

*sight* Voodoo statistics...................

I am convinced you are a troll. This kind of information on the tip of your fingers is just daft. My mistake to think you were generally interesting, sorry for that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
*sight* Voodoo statistics...................

I am convinced you are a troll. This kind of information on the tip of your fingers is just daft. My mistake to think you were generally interesting, sorry for that.

I have been watching how you merge, you only switch on the specific facts, not slogans of propaganda posters. Maybe the fact that you are a Troll and not me? I cite specific facts and specific explanation, your position is limited to statements like "Russians are bad because I said so. If you disagree with me, then you are bad" and other nonsense. So maybe you shouldn't have to write here in this case?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with truth

Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:15 pm

That's just funny. Fine, don't care what you think anymore, sorry. Good luck to you, my Russian friend.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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