tommy1808
Posts: 6820
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Elitists, Crybabies and Junky Degrees

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:00 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Since you need to have a place to live, buy books and eat, it is never "free" in any conventional sense.

Give a mouse a cookie, he'll want a glass of milk.


Funny, living in a country where University education is free of charge, for foreigners and citizens alike, up and including making an PhD, i can assure you that few, if any, people keep going to university just because they can and it is free. In some states you pay a token sum per semester if you take too long to your degree.

I'm not saying that a student should bear all the costs, but I don't think it's a bad thing to have students do community service or something that lets them know that while they pay little to nothing (because it's the government carrying the bulk of it), they have to put their fair share. THAT is why I disagreed with Bernie Sanders's platform.


They pay there fair share in personal taxes later on, they also enable higher economic growth, which also enables higher total tax revenue. Or would you think that Germany is being dragged down by providing free education to everyone, sometimes starting from free Kindergarten? I have the feeling it doesn´t, Budget surplus is expected to be between 20 and 30 billion this year, unemployment is at record lows and infrastructure spending is limited by available labor, not available funding.

"Free college", "Free healthcare"...no...it's not "free". I have to pay higher taxes on that and if that's the case, .


Too short sighted. You pay for it no matter how their education is financed, either because you pay with your taxes, or you pay with higher prices when you purchase things and services. And if loans are involved in that financing, you also pay a good chunk in compound interest to banks. MMmmmh... would i rather pay taxes to finance people education, or rather add lots of money to some banks bottom-line.....?

I want a proper plan in place


That is of course a sensible approach.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Elitists, Crybabies and Junky Degrees

Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:13 pm

Thomas, you're forgetting one thing: the German mentality is not the same as the American mentality. Germans understand the benefit of higher taxes to pay for social services that they all use in some form; you can't advocate to go all in in a place like the US. That's why baby steps are necessary. When a couple of generations understand the significance and benefits of higher taxes to pay for services, THEN you can make the argument to switch to a "free" model.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Elitists, Crybabies and Junky Degrees

Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:17 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Thomas, you're forgetting one thing: the German mentality is not the same as the American mentality. Germans understand the benefit of higher taxes to pay for social services that they all use in some form; you can't advocate to go all in in a place like the US. That's why baby steps are necessary. When a couple of generations understand the significance and benefits of higher taxes to pay for services, THEN you can make the argument to switch to a "free" model.

You miss Tommy's points entirely.

There is no "free" model. Nothing is free. There are simply choices to be made as to how to pay for things that society needs and wants.

The European model(s) for education are far, far superior to what we have in the United States. I am talking about how we deliver education, not the quality of what is provided. Our better and best schools compare favorably with those found anywhere.

I suspect that the same differences (American vs. European) in the overall costs of education are, for much the same reasons, to be found between our health care systems and other social programs.

I suggest that those differences are the result of Americans accepting as a norm stupid, uneducated, bigoted religiosity in our affairs of state. We elect representatives who pander to the dumbest among us, and we get what we pay for. I suspect that most American don't know how to balance a checking account or prepare a family budget. Neither do our representative in recent decades.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Elitists, Crybabies and Junky Degrees

Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:46 am

underwater basket weaving is the disparaging synonym for liberal arts majors.
flower basket weaving, is something that ( not) einstein made up
 
Flighty
Posts: 8896
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Re: Elitists, Crybabies and Junky Degrees

Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:37 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
The US government could easily afford to make post secondary education to a public college or university if they actually did it. There is plenty of money available but the priority simply isn't there, those in Washington simply choose to spend money in other ways.

There have been many studies to show that everyone in the US could easily have their post secondary education paid for for the fraction of the money that was wasted in Iraq.

Also most people know that when the government pays for service that it isn't free, taxes are paying for it. People in the United States seem to be mad when it is used for education and health care but don't bat an eye when it is spend on defense and tax cuts.

As a US taxpayer, I don't care if the money is invested in AFFORDABLE education. AFFORDABLE, not free. There are two lessons to be learned from this:
1. Nothing is ever free. Someone/something else is making it affordable at their expense.
2. You still have to work towards your goals. Help goes a long way, but only goes so far; effort put into it is what gets you over the finish line.

My main gripe is wondering who stands to benefit and how. Are we really gonna invest money in college so that someone goes out to study "15th Century Women's Role in English Literature" or would we rather see that money invested in someone who will become a doctor? Are we willing to support a student and have them switch majors 3-4 times because they still don't know what they want in life and be a career student for over 10 years or do we cap the amount per lifetime (or per every 10 years)?

I've seen both. In my 6.5 years of college (it took long due to a 5-year curriculum plus a minor, if anyone was curious), I saw the engineer-turned-sociology-turned-psychology students, the political science students in their 8th year of class and still not halfway finished, and the social justice warriors demanding more services without wanting to pony up a nickel more.

Heck, you guys may remember PHX787. Studied sociology. Complained about not finding a job. Is that the kind of student we want to benefit or do we invest in the student who is on the way to becoming a doctor or an engineer or a pilot?

I'd rather see a decent ROI (or even the promise of it) as opposed to a free-for-all approach. I'm not saying that the world does not need arts; there's certainly room for it. But those who choose to go for it do so understanding that the degree in flower basket weaving won't land you a 6-figure salary no matter how detailed those baskets are, and that flower basket weaving adds little value to the modern world (flower basket weaving doesn't build roads, airplanes or boats; it doesn't cure a patient from cancer, and it does not keep operations running at an organization).


It's tough because we are debating two things: (1) who should pay for college and (2) if the student does not pay, how do we prioritize valuable degrees, rather than this turning into an adult-daycare situation. And I think Europe shows signs of that. Adulthood beginning at 32-33, the years 18-33 really being an extended infanthood at government expense.

That's all wonderful except I don't know why taxpayer money should be confiscated to pay for that. Certainly, the public gets benefit from brilliant, but poor students getting an opportunity to compete in the arts and sciences. Does it mean tuition needs to be free? Probably not. I think "free tuition" has created the unique American phenomenon of world-champion high tuition and health care costs. It's because our government is the most wealthy one in the world. And people are addicted to federal dollars, much of it confiscated, much of it simply borrowed.

And yes, the military has the same problem.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Elitists, Crybabies and Junky Degrees

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:15 am

Flighty wrote:
And I think Europe shows signs of that. Adulthood beginning at 32-33, the years 18-33 really being an extended infanthood at government expense..


is your imagination running wild again. Germany has among the oldest students when they leave university, the average age is 24. That is just enough to finish a 5 year degree after school, that does include people that have a vocational training first, you know, the people that work and paid taxes at the age you where still in school, people that decides to study later in life. Average time until graduation is 3,9 years, not bad considering that ~35% of all students go for a 5-years degree of the bat.

As pretty much every single time you give numbers, you are very wrong.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
WIederling
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Re: Elitists, Crybabies and Junky Degrees

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:54 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Thomas, you're forgetting one thing: the German mentality is not the same as the American mentality. Germans understand the benefit of higher taxes to pay for social services that they all use in some form; you can't advocate to go all in in a place like the US. That's why baby steps are necessary. When a couple of generations understand the significance and benefits of higher taxes to pay for services, THEN you can make the argument to switch to a "free" model.


The US had higher (especially corporate and the rich ) taxes and lived well. A well working middle class as outward proof.

Then the "never sated" started to clamor for tax reductions and promised trickle down in return ( around Reagan? )
The dumb masses got the wool pulled over their heads and never again saw much daylight.
rinse repeat for a growing gulf in society.

A society with no middle class ( i.e. a hole in income distribution ) is feudalism by any other name.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Ken777
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Re: Elitists, Crybabies and Junky Degrees

Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:52 am

einsteinboricua wrote:

When Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier and Embraer, the ME3, remaining US legacy carriers, all their suppliers, the ATC units, and their employees require "flower basket weaving" in order to work, let me know.

If you noticed, I don't rule out that society could benefit from someone who majored in flower basket weaving (and you've been here long enough to know that the term is used here in a.net to refer to a liberal arts degree), but the demand is so low and expectations from the student are so high that it creates unhappy scenarios and an entitled mentality. And if college will be paid for by the tax payers, I want it invested in something that adds value to society. A liberal arts degree, unfortunately, will not have the same value as a STEM degree (only in very rare cases and it will usually require a higher degree (psychology with an MBA focused on human resources or sociology with a Juris Doctor, for example).

Before automation, actual flower basket weaving could serve many purposes, from pattern recognition to pattern design to applications in other areas (furniture for example). Automation has taken care of that; you only need a graphic designer with experience with the Adobe Suite (or similar) and you have weaned yourself from an actual flower basket weaver. But let's assume there is an opening for flower basket weaver. How much do you think that person's salary will be? Do they get an office? Remote assignments? Maybe with a prestigious firm who only needs one flower basket weaver as a consultant or design lead. Is it society's fault that flower basket weaving is not valued as high or is it the person's fault for not understanding or refusing to accept that following their passion comes with a hefty tradeoff?



Basket weaving has taken a beating in this thread so let's look at the most important target students that needs courses like Basket Weaving:

Occupational Therapists. The OT's work improving patients fine motor skills. That is because Physical Therapists (or Physiotherapists) work developing Gross Motor in rehabbing patients.

That means that employers like Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier and Embraer, the ME3, remaining US legacy carriers, all their suppliers, the ATC units, and their employees require "flower basket weaving" ARE NOW PAYING OC's to help rehab their employees that have had a stroke, or hav e been in an accident. OT's and PT's are also pretty important in rehabbing members of the military who have been wounded/injured. Might not like the idea of Gunny working on weaving a basket, but if that has targeted development then let him have it.

In another area one University offered a course in Calligraphy - which seems like a dumb course to have to pay for. This school had one non-paying drop in student who loved that course and WE have benefitted from his developed passion. The guy? Steve Jobs. That course developed the start of Apple's printers that provided proportional printing. Before that "m"s and "I"s used the same width on those impact printers. That Calligraphy has more than paid for itself.

BTW, Jobs never did get a technical degree but he was aggressive in saying that Apple was the intersection of Liberal Arts and Technology. For the Liberal Arts side you only have to look at Jony Ive. On the technology side look at their products, starting with the ne iPhone X with face recognition and nan 8 core A11 chip.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Elitists, Crybabies and Junky Degrees

Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:26 am

Ken777 wrote:
That course developed the start of Apple's printers that provided proportional printing. Before that "m"s and "I"s used the same width on those impact printers. That Calligraphy has more than paid for itself..


Slight correction, Kerning has been around about as long as printing was, and Steve Jobs love for proper spacing of letters led Apple to implement PostScrip. Why did Adobe call it PostScrip? Because it was post Script: IBMs 1975 typesetting language Script. Apple didn´t even exist at that time. When Alphanumeric brought the APS2 to market, the first digital typesetting System, Steve Jobs was 8, and only 12 when IBM re-introduced the successor APS3 as IBM 2680 Fine Art Printer in 1967.

Steve Jobs love for fine art writing probably led him to make it available to the masses w/o much training needed to operate such a system, but when Apple did so, you could already use LaTeX on most computers and TeX itself was already 7 years old.At that time Franz Schmerbeck was already working on Signum, which would be published for Atari ST systems about a year later and cranked almost ready for print pretty documents even on a 9-needle Printer for a tiny fraction of the Apple System cost. They charged you more for the Printer than Atari for a Mega ST4, Display, SLM804 Laser printer and Signum Software.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D

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