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zhiao
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:52 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:57 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
wardialer wrote:
The Tech industry is dying in the US and for people like me who are in the IT field are moving out of the US for cheap labor and Tax free proposals in Eastern European countries. That is MY issue here. I lost my IT job a few years ago due to a foreigner. What does that tell us??.


That your return on investment (=wage) was too low compared with other workers. Or that your Boss was simply greedy.

In Terms of US$ GDP generated per working hour the US worker is below the OECD average, but pay per hour is among the highest.

https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm
https://data.oecd.org/earnwage/average-wages.htm

That is not really your fault, but the environment you have to work in, simply makes your labor too expensive for what you deliver, unless you are truly outstanding in your abilities. That also means that a company that wants to do everything in the US and made by Americans, would likely price themselves out of the market. It is hard to notice that the people blaming China for Job losses have their houses full of stuff made in China.

best regards
Thomas


Do you know how to read? The link has US above nearly everyone else in GDP per hour worked. You were looking at growth and not actual levels. Look at it again!
 
zhiao
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:52 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:00 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
jetero wrote:
Meanwhile, Republicans promised more take-home pay and you'll get it before the milk in your refrigerator goes bad.


to the tune of 4000 to 9000 USD for the average worker in higher wages and lower taxes paid.....

wardialer wrote:
I guess nobody cares to answer my question because no right American cares that our companies are serving business from foreign countries.


Well, why would anyone care? Forcing US companies to price themselves out of the market won´t create jobs, it makes them go away.

Will this Bill stop outsourcing of our jobs?


It actually creates plenty of incentive to move production to foreign countries

I just wish Trump would pose a Tax on those companies who are conducting business abroad and for those companies who would like to stay in America are Taxed free.


If you want a global trade war with the US on one and the rest of the planet on the other side, please do. Considering the fast declining importance of the US economy, it is not that hard to predict who´s going to come out on top of that one.
Image
global GDP share PPP

It would also make it fairly attractive to sell US companies to new foreign owners and make it a non-US company. Or do you also propose that Trump tells companies who, when and for what price US Americans can sell their assets to?

best regards
Thomas


GDP PPP is not official measure, nice try though. Though I can easily show Japan and W Europe falling way more too. Using the official method, it’s 25% of World GDP, which is little changed from 10 years ago. 25% is 1/4, which is more than the EU plus Russia combined. Lol.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 6353
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:04 pm

Aesma wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Under the new tax code the full cost of equipment can be written off immediately. That, combined with the corporate tax windfall, should lead to US companies buying a lot of robots and advanced software. These are made in the US in part, but also in Europe and Asia, so everybody should benefit. Not sure it will help the commercial balance, but who cares ?

I'm wondering if buying all this tech will not mean more unemployment rather than less, though.


People will be needed to support the Automation, Robots and supply chain. the jobs we do changes, not the need for jobs. A job may end designing shoes, but one may open in planning space suits for trips to mars.


Yeah but that's not the same people. Well, some of them can learn to work on robots, but many aren't going to be able to. Basically if you can't find a job now, especially in the US where unemployment is low so there is pressure to hire "anybody", then things won't improve for you.


Right now in the US, if you can't find a job, you aren't looking. That or you are like Cousin Eddie in National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation and looking for a job in upper management.

Plenty of IT jobs are open here, and plenty of design work. Some people don't recognize how useful their skills are in endeavors outside of IT desk support all day.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7731
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:07 pm

zhiao wrote:
GDP PPP is not official measure, nice try though


http://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/ doesn´t look different in a meaningful way

Though I can easily show Japan and W Europe falling way more too..


Since neither Japan nor the EU are likely to plan a trade war against the rest of the world, that is irrelevant in those cases.

Using the official method, it’s 25% of World GDP, which is little changed from 10 years ago. 25% is 1/4, which is more than the EU plus Russia combined. Lol


The World Bank disagrees:

Image

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sw733
Posts: 5637
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:26 pm

bgm wrote:
What is all this going to do to the deficit that the GOP care so deeply about? (you know, the one they shut down the gov over a few years ago).

Very little when they start cutting expenses that actually matter to the average American to balance it out. I'm sure most people don't give a shit about the poor, but they'll care when their Medicare and S.S. are cut.
 
zhiao
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:52 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:35 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
zhiao wrote:
GDP PPP is not official measure, nice try though


http://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/ doesn´t look different in a meaningful way

Though I can easily show Japan and W Europe falling way more too..


Since neither Japan nor the EU are likely to plan a trade war against the rest of the world, that is irrelevant in those cases.

Using the official method, it’s 25% of World GDP, which is little changed from 10 years ago. 25% is 1/4, which is more than the EU plus Russia combined. Lol


The World Bank disagrees:

Image

best regards
Thomas


Why are you using a different source for GDP per hour worked? You initially posted the OECD data, which I think we can agree is most accurate, and according that that link, the US is WELL ABOVE the OECD average, when you said it was BELOW. You were looking at the wrong dataset. It's only below some small countries, and above every major one including France where it used to be below.

As far as GDP, the most recent IMF data has USA at 25% share. Just divide one over the other, is that difficult? Your little picture is not an official source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... P_(nominal)
 
afcjets
Posts: 1997
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:50 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
I'd be eager to see how many companies go right ahead and give their employees significant wage increases enough to say "you know what? this isn't that bad after all".


Here are four large ones so far in the first few hours of it being passed and before even being implemented:

AT&T - $1000 bonus to employees


out of the, at least 4000 USD pay raise the GOP promised, they got 1k... yay. Trump again under delivers by 75%. Oh, and the 3 trillion budget shortfall over the next 10 years means that they, per capita, will also receive ~1800 USD/year less in services like streets, schools, law enforcement and such. So they are already down 800 USD/Year.


The US government does not set or mandate employee bonuses. The pay $4000 raise Trump pitched is how much the average family (not individual) would pay less in taxes. Trump over delivers by 25% if one parent works for WF or 50% if both work there or another company that decides to do the same. Your 3 trillion shortfall assume the tax cuts have ZERO impact on the economy. If GDP increases by only 0.4%, tax revenue would rise by 3 trillion over 10 years.


tommy1808 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Wells Fargo - raising minimum hourly rate to $15
Fifth Third Bank - raising hourly rate and giving bonuses


Wells Fargo already did that last year and Banks got significant pressure to increase wages to a minimum of 15USD/Hour since at least 2015.



Last year they raised it to the $13.50. Now it is going to $15.


tommy1808 wrote:
Correlation does not mean causation, you know.....

But again, that is exactly the effect i predicted above, and just as also predicted, Trump´s fans are falling for it. Again.



Yup, and that includes many CEOs, including Boeing's. Read this headline and the source.

"Boeing CEO Muilenburg Applauds Tax Law, Announces $300 Million in Employee-Related and Charitable Investments to Spur Innovation and Growth"

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2017-12-20- ... and-Growth
 
afcjets
Posts: 1997
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Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:06 pm

Two more large corporations announced $1000 bonuses yesterday, AT&T and NBC Universal. Just another random coincidence.
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
Posts: 11694
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:00 pm

afcjets wrote:
Two more large corporations announced $1000 bonuses yesterday, AT&T and NBC Universal. Just another random coincidence.


So awesome

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/20/tax-ref ... oyees.html
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
N867DA
Posts: 1047
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:06 pm

jetero wrote:
So sad "SALT" is now an acronym that means "state and local taxes" as opposed to what it used to mean . . . "Strategic Arms Limitation Talks."

What real grievance do you have, Cowboy? Because you whine and whine like nobody's business.



He doesn't like it when some states provide nicer things than the federal government can, which lets the feds continue to pay disproportionate amounts of money into many 'low-tax' areas whose electorate continue circlejerking about some Ayn Rand book. Make America Mississippi Again!
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
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casinterest
Posts: 6353
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Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:29 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
Two more large corporations announced $1000 bonuses yesterday, AT&T and NBC Universal. Just another random coincidence.


So awesome

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/20/tax-ref ... oyees.html


Hmm interesting that they can give a bonus in a year when the tax cuts aren't in play. almost like they planned to do so anyway.

Good for the workers ,but there are a lot of businesses out there that cannot afford to to this.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:42 pm

Like the old sayings go. Like Pigs wallowing and eating at the trough. Let them eat cake, etc, etc.
We know the first and second are true as seen here on taxes etc. We know the third one happened because of the first two. How did that one work out for the Pigs????
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 2507
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:00 pm

Something that has been missed here....

Pretty much every news organization (even Fox) has said that the majority of the US public is against this tax bill, yet the Republicans voted for it.....At some point all politicians need to start listening to the people they represent rather than just following party lines.....Or as we have found out thanks to Trump, non politicians will end up running the country....And that may not be a good thing.
 
zhiao
Posts: 456
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Re: Tax reform win.

Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:51 pm

Sorry but running a country on what majority think is absurd. Majority opinion changes daily and many times is completely uninformed. Hence the notion of a republic.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:28 am

zhiao wrote:
Sorry but running a country on what majority think is absurd. Majority opinion changes daily and many times is completely uninformed. Hence the notion of a republic.


An absurd conclusion in a free country who have elections on a set schedule. Not listening to the majority usually gets one defeated normally and that is as it should be.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Ken777
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Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:11 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I see no way for Republicans to reform spending in any meaningful way. The deficit will skyrocket.

Which means that if the GOP still controls the government beyond 2021 they'll tackle entitlements and social programs, using the debt and deficit as an excuse. Oh, and maybe throw in another tax cut because of reasons while boosting defense.


The GOP has made it clear that they are going to address Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid entitlements in the new year - 2018, not 2021. For years it has driven the Republicans and Financial Sectors to push for ending government programs that can deliver profits to the private sector. The younger you are the more the GOP will shaft you on Social Security. Pressures for you to go on private industry will continue to grow, even when it offers lower performance for the individual.

As for medical care in the US, the private sector has clearly proven after year that they cannot deliver health care at a lower costs with Medicare Advantage still needing a 15% boost over Medicare to operate. How much of your Social Security funds will be sucked up for excessive salaries and profits. Really?
 
NIKV69
Topic Author
Posts: 11694
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Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:28 pm

The president has signed the bill into law.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4310
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:28 pm

Ken777 wrote:
The younger you are the more the GOP will shaft you on Social Security.


The younger you are the more you will be shafted by Social Security, regardless of the party in charge, that is just the nature of a ponzi scheme, you can thank your buddy FDR for that.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
NoTime
Posts: 460
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Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:02 pm

It really is incredible to me how many people get upset at the notion of the government NOT taking some of their money. Granted, a lot of the people complaining are probably freeloaders who don't actually pay ANY federal income tax... but it's still pretty incredible to watch.

Regardless, if you hate the idea of keeping a little extra of your own money, feel free to donate it.
 
Okie
Posts: 3799
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:17 pm

NoTime wrote:
Regardless, if you hate the idea of keeping a little extra of your own money, feel free to donate it.


Heavens with armagedon and the end of the world coming because of the tax breaks causing yet another fake crisis, donating to charity would be a non starter.
Bernie and Elizabeth want you to know the government knows how to spend your money better than the people who earn it. Just give it back to the government.

You can feed, cloth and educate your family with the thank you note.


Okie
 
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scbriml
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Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:11 pm

afcjets wrote:
Just another random coincidence.
.

Not at all, but... :sarcastic:

casinterest wrote:
Hmm interesting that they can give a bonus in a year when the tax cuts aren't in play. almost like they planned to do so anyway.


Never before in the history of the World have large corporations given their employees a bonus at the end of the year. Nope, that's never happened before. Ever. :liar:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
afcjets
Posts: 1997
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:47 pm

First of all, two of the five include actual pay raises and all five of them announced them within HOURS of the tax bill passing. More importantly, all five of them admitted it was because of the tax cut, except Rachel Maddow's employer also cited it was because of Trump ending net neutrality :banghead: :lol:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... employees/

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/20/fifth-t ... ssage.html

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-w ... story.html

Also, did it ever occur to you these evil corporations' tax cuts will exceed $1000 per employee per year and they can afford to pay out a bonus this year and still be ahead?
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:50 am

Guess it remains to be seen how this plays out. I will admit this is not how Trump sold it. He sold it as the top would be penalized and the middle class would benefit the most. That is obviously not how it really is. Companies today do not share with employees like they did during my fathers era. But I do stand to save a few bucks so that is more than the Democrats have offered me thus far. I will have something to say if GOP does go after SS or Medicare I paid into it for 38 years so far I better get some of it back. I hate this ponzi scheme FDR created but since I paid into it I don't want you raising the age AGAIN or raiding it like both parties have done.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 6326
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:58 am

stratosphere wrote:
I will admit this is not how Trump sold it. He sold it as the top would be penalized and the middle class would benefit the most. That is obviously not how it really is. Companies today do not share with employees like they did during my fathers era.

And THAT will be what Democrats will be running on. I don't think they'll reverse the tax cuts for the middle class, but they'll likely ensure that the corporate tax cut snaps back into place at the same time or sooner.

stratosphere wrote:
But I do stand to save a few bucks so that is more than the Democrats have offered me thus far.
I'd love to see a full blown calculator. The ideal thing would have been to cut payroll taxes since that allows people to save more money throughout the year as opposed to receiving a fat check once a year. But hey...it's money I'm getting back. I can't complain.

stratosphere wrote:
will have something to say if GOP does go after SS or Medicare I paid into it for 38 years so far I better get some of it back. I hate this ponzi scheme FDR created but since I paid into it I don't want you raising the age AGAIN or raiding it like both parties have done.

Trump ran on no cuts to Medicare or SS. But then again, referring to the first part of your post, he also said the tax cuts would not benefit the wealthy...yet here we are.

With debt growing, expect entitlements to be touched. We had $1.5 trillion to give out in tax cuts, but we can't afford to keep funding SS/Medicare/Medicaid or other social programs because of the debt.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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WarRI1
Posts: 11178
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:13 am

stratosphere wrote:
Guess it remains to be seen how this plays out. I will admit this is not how Trump sold it. He sold it as the top would be penalized and the middle class would benefit the most. That is obviously not how it really is. Companies today do not share with employees like they did during my fathers era. But I do stand to save a few bucks so that is more than the Democrats have offered me thus far. I will have something to say if GOP does go after SS or Medicare I paid into it for 38 years so far I better get some of it back. I hate this ponzi scheme FDR created but since I paid into it I don't want you raising the age AGAIN or raiding it like both parties have done.


The dawn of reality is coming fast,a bunch of liars and cheats and I agree about what Trump said and said and I hope the Democrats pound the shit out of his lies. For them to do other wise is unthinkable. Trump is recorded, photographed speaking lies and distortions, over and over. If the people are not brain dead, he will pay along with congress. I have collected for twenty years and paid for 42 working and still paying retired. I never saw or heard any Democrat threaten the Social Services Safety Net, but I sure remember Speaker Ryan using his Mother as an example of how he would never cut his Mother's benefits. I sure hope they dig that one out and shove it in his face.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:28 am

WarRI1 wrote:
stratosphere wrote:
Guess it remains to be seen how this plays out. I will admit this is not how Trump sold it. He sold it as the top would be penalized and the middle class would benefit the most. That is obviously not how it really is. Companies today do not share with employees like they did during my fathers era. But I do stand to save a few bucks so that is more than the Democrats have offered me thus far. I will have something to say if GOP does go after SS or Medicare I paid into it for 38 years so far I better get some of it back. I hate this ponzi scheme FDR created but since I paid into it I don't want you raising the age AGAIN or raiding it like both parties have done.


The dawn of reality is coming fast,a bunch of liars and cheats and I agree about what Trump said and said and I hope the Democrats pound the shit out of his lies. For them to do other wise is unthinkable. Trump is recorded, photographed speaking lies and distortions, over and over. If the people are not brain dead, he will pay along with congress. I have collected for twenty years and paid for 42 working and still paying retired. I never saw or heard any Democrat threaten the Social Services Safety Net, but I sure remember Speaker Ryan using his Mother as an example of how he would never cut his Mother's benefits. I sure hope they dig that one out and shove it in his face.


Agreed on "entitlements" Yes I am entitled and don't you dare f**k with it that goes for either party. They do need to dig into fraud and people who are collecting that never paid into it not that I think it's a lot but still there is a lot of fraud in government programs TANF or food stamps or EBT is among the worst for fraud and abuse too many selling the EBT card for 50 cents on the dollar for cash to get drugs and alcohol. I am not totally happy with Trump I never liked him. I voted for him because I despised Clinton but I do like some things about him. The UN for example. They get the most funding from the US and a lot of countries in the UN take a lot of money from us and dog the shit out of us. Now I know we have strategic reasons for the money we give to some countries but I think we need to evaluate and cut off those that we don't need. I don't want to hear the excuse that it's only 1% of the budget. We are in debt way too much already I'm tired of being the worlds policeman. We do stick our noses in too many other peoples business. Trying to force our democracy on other countries like the ME where it isn't wanted and will never happen.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:39 am

To those who support this bill, have you already prepared your discourse for the next economic crisis ? There is one coming, nobody argues against that idea. When the deficit and unemployment skyrocket then, will you clamor for more tax cuts ?

zhiao wrote:
Sorry but running a country on what majority think is absurd. Majority opinion changes daily and many times is completely uninformed. Hence the notion of a republic.


Are you saying that GOP politicians are informed ? Who informs Trump, aside from his army of tax accountants ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 3416
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:10 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
The president has signed the bill into law.

Photo of the signing ceremony is on the front page of Wash. Post for Sat., Dec. 23.

For the first piece of meaningful legislation of his presidency, Mr. Trump sits alone to sign the bill.

Looks like no one else wants photo op credit to be used against them in 2018 campaigns.

#Pityful
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 2507
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:09 pm

NoTime wrote:
It really is incredible to me how many people get upset at the notion of the government NOT taking some of their money. Granted, a lot of the people complaining are probably freeloaders who don't actually pay ANY federal income tax... but it's still pretty incredible to watch.

Regardless, if you hate the idea of keeping a little extra of your own money, feel free to donate it.


You are missing the point, I have no issue with the government giving me back a chunk of cash, however, I do have an issue when the net affect on the country for years to come will be a train wreck.

Here is the the simple truth, I make a good living, I pay a crap load of taxes, I employee an accountant who figures out the best and legal means for me to reduce those taxes, the end result being, as a percentage of my income, I end up paying under 20% in taxes already.

WarRI1 wrote:

The dawn of reality is coming fast,a bunch of liars and cheats and I agree about what Trump said and said and I hope the Democrats pound the shit out of his lies. For them to do other wise is unthinkable. Trump is recorded, photographed speaking lies and distortions, over and over. If the people are not brain dead, he will pay along with congress. I have collected for twenty years and paid for 42 working and still paying retired. I never saw or heard any Democrat threaten the Social Services Safety Net, but I sure remember Speaker Ryan using his Mother as an example of how he would never cut his Mother's benefits. I sure hope they dig that one out and shove it in his face.


It's going to interesting to see how that plays out in states such as Florida.

Aesma wrote:
To those who support this bill, have you already prepared your discourse for the next economic crisis ? There is one coming, nobody argues against that idea. When the deficit and unemployment skyrocket then, will you clamor for more tax cuts ?



Hang on what, a GOP run government that ends up nearly crashing the US economy, say it isn't so ! That could never happen....again....Right ? It really is amazing to me that this country forgets so quickly that the GOP and their masters of small government/cut spending/ tax cuts/ slash regulations managed to cost millions of people their jobs and homes (though part of that must go on the stupidity of the homeowners as well) leaving it to those "free spending Democrats" to get the economy back in shape, only to elect a President who said right out front he was going to do the same thing as the last GOP government.....But oh yeah, Emails/Benghazi ....... Well this time it's going to hurt, you thought 2007/08 was bad, just wait.....
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8085
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:50 pm

Tax cuts and spending levels had literally nothing to do with the mortgage crisis.

That was caused by bad ideas and legislation that had been on the books for years, along with extremely low interest rates that added fuel to the fire.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:10 pm

I didn't imply causation. I'm saying a crisis is coming. One is always coming, nothing special about that.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 6326
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:11 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
The president has signed the bill into law.

Photo of the signing ceremony is on the front page of Wash. Post for Sat., Dec. 23.

For the first piece of meaningful legislation of his presidency, Mr. Trump sits alone to sign the bill.

Looks like no one else wants photo op credit to be used against them in 2018 campaigns.

#Pityful

They didn't have to stand behind him. They already had their moment in the Sun when they praised his "exquisite leadership" and the wishes of making this "the best administration in generations, perhaps ever". All on camera.

And the tally speaks for itself: not a single vote from Democrats, in a process where they were not invited to participate.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Flighty
Posts: 9227
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:32 pm

I think half the tax plan is great- lower corporate rates, lower personal rates along with fewer exemptions. This is close to revenue neutral. The 25% income pass thru and elimination of estate tax, I do not agree with.

Yes, Aesma, a crisis is coming. We have been over-spending drastically for a decade, leading to over $10 trillion in new debt. The payments on the debt alone will be $1 trillion/yr before long. Then what? And how will we stimulate the economy going forward?

My preferred answer to your question would be means-testing all federal benefits, eliminating most pensions (which my generation will never get), and generally shrinking the federal and state budgets. Our government budget is unmanageable, even for the incredibly wealthy tax base that we have. That's the question that now confronts us. Should we multiply our health care costs again to be $40,000 per person per year? Should university tuition rise to $150,000 per year? Should each military soldier cost $10 million over his or her lifetime? If not, then cost containment needs to be put into effect. We have been spending money without regard to cost for 2-3 generations of time now. The end of that process is imminent.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2391
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:59 pm

jetwet1 wrote:

You are missing the point, I have no issue with the government giving me back a chunk of cash, however, I do have an issue when the net affect on the country for years to come will be a train wreck.


This

I’ve looked at the final legislation and I’ll probably get about $1,500 cut, but I think this bill is just bad policy.

1) Why is someone making six figures getting a tax cut when the nation is running a huge deficit each year? I have no problem with changes that help those in need like expanding the EITC or lowering marginal rates at lower income levels, but what justifies lowering the marginal rate on $200,000 more than on $40,000?

2) I think a lot of charities are going to take it in the shorts for a couple years. I know a lot of upper middle class folks that contribute a few thousand a year are going to look at setting up tax sheltered accounts and pooling the money for a few years before contributing a large lump sum and itemizing their taxes that year. If I were running a non-profit I’d be thinking hard about how to survive 2-3 lean years before those donations roll in.

3) Eliminating the individual mandate in an attempt to dismantle the ACA is also spectacularly bad policy in my opinion. Sabotaging the market for health insurance by removing the healthiest individuals will only raise costs to either hard working, lower income Americans, or the government through ACA subsidies. Then again, blow it up and people might get so angry they turn the keys back over to Democrats and we get single payer or at least a public option through Medicare. Republicans might regret trying to sabotage the ACA.

4) I think it’s a terrible precedent to basically give the middle finger to voters in states that fund themselves to a large extent with an income tax like Oregon, California, and New York, while almost entirely preserving the tax deduction on property taxes that fund states like Texas and Florida. We have enough division in this country without congress passing laws that seemingly target states they don’t agree with politically for tax increases.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4310
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:37 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:

And the tally speaks for itself: not a single vote from Democrats, in a process where they were not invited to participate.


They didn't participate because they did not want to. This bill has been discussed for a long time, and many / most of the policy points are things many Democrats have agreed to for a long time, it is just that Schumer and Pelosi were literally willing to crash the economy (if the bill did not go through) just to avoid giving Trump a win - the worst case of partisanship imaginable - so they cajoled other Democrats to act like spoiled brats while hoping the slim Republican majority in the Senate would not hold up as strongly (it does have people like McCain, Collins and Flake, so it was plausible). I am sure many of the moderate Democratic senators up for re-election in red states next year will come to regret letting themselves be used by Schumer and Pelosi like this.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
NoTime
Posts: 460
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:50 pm

jetwet1 wrote:
NoTime wrote:
It really is incredible to me how many people get upset at the notion of the government NOT taking some of their money. Granted, a lot of the people complaining are probably freeloaders who don't actually pay ANY federal income tax... but it's still pretty incredible to watch.

Regardless, if you hate the idea of keeping a little extra of your own money, feel free to donate it.


You are missing the point, I have no issue with the government giving me back a chunk of cash, however, I do have an issue when the net affect on the country for years to come will be a train wreck.


Nah, I'm not missing the point.

The government is going to continue to go more and more in to debt. (See Obama's trillions upon trillions of additional debt.) As much as I wish we would cut spending, Democrats (and some Republicans) won't let that happen. So, if we're going to go further into debt, I would rather do it by giving people some of their own money back, vs. wasting it on any number of unwanted/unnecessary programs.

In other words, there was already going to be a "train wreck" in the future. Now, at least, the taxpayers get some real benefit out of it. (And, by taxpayers, I mean the 45-ish percent of people who actually fund the country.)
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4310
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:25 pm

NoTime wrote:
The government is going to continue to go more and more in to debt. (See Obama's trillions upon trillions of additional debt.) As much as I wish we would cut spending, Democrats (and some Republicans) won't let that happen. So, if we're going to go further into debt, I would rather do it by giving people some of their own money back, vs. wasting it on any number of unwanted/unnecessary programs.

In other words, there was already going to be a "train wreck" in the future. Now, at least, the taxpayers get some real benefit out of it. (And, by taxpayers, I mean the 45-ish percent of people who actually fund the country.)


Also, all the increased government debt will do is raise interest rates. Frankly, interest rates need to rise, they have been manipulated lower by the Fed for way too long, in the largest wealth transfer from older generations to newer generations in history.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:26 pm

Older generations that are more likely to be in the 1% :

Image
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
PPVRA
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:46 pm

Aesma wrote:
Older generations that are more likely to be in the 1% :

Image


Keynesian economics was a total disaster, which is why there was a huge political change that allowed for a change in economic thinking. Stagflation proved Keynes wrong. The entire planet has slowly realized and abandoned his ideas, though not completely yet. The third world still clings to it harder than anyone else.

It's absurd to suggest things were going great until 1979.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7731
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:14 am

Flighty wrote:
Then what? And how will we stimulate the economy going forward?
.


The collapse of the Soviet Economy schuld have a few useful pointers, especially since the US economy becomes more command style, by way of bigger companies, and more peasant style worker status with little vertical mobility.
That is probably one of the reasons why the 1% percent bought themselves a tax law that excludes foreign profit forever.

And Trump is on record that he thinks it is a good idea for the US to default on its debt, so a look at Argentina won't hurt.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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bgm
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:10 am

NoTime wrote:
See Obama's trillions upon trillions of additional debt.


Conveniently forgetting Bush's 'trillions upon trillions' of debt? Selective amnesia perhaps? Let me help you:

Image
When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat. - George Carlin
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7731
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:05 am

bgm wrote:
NoTime wrote:
See Obama's trillions upon trillions of additional debt.


Conveniently forgetting Bush's 'trillions upon trillions' of debt? Selective amnesia perhaps? Let me help you:


Add to that that some of them had to deal with an economic crisis and others hadn't.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Aesma
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Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:51 am

PPVRA wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Older generations that are more likely to be in the 1% :

Image


Keynesian economics was a total disaster, which is why there was a huge political change that allowed for a change in economic thinking. Stagflation proved Keynes wrong. The entire planet has slowly realized and abandoned his ideas, though not completely yet. The third world still clings to it harder than anyone else.

It's absurd to suggest things were going great until 1979.


I wasn't born then, so I have no first hand experience. However I have a large family, and my parents and all people their age have never been unemployed. Their children, it's another story. Several of my cousins are 30 with degrees and have never had a real job.

Is it absurd to suggest thing aren't going great now, and that law will not help matters any ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
NoTime
Posts: 460
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:21 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:00 pm

bgm wrote:
NoTime wrote:
See Obama's trillions upon trillions of additional debt.


Conveniently forgetting Bush's 'trillions upon trillions' of debt? Selective amnesia perhaps? Let me help you:

Image


:lol: :lol:

That graph isn't even close to being accurate.

Even according to CNN, one of the Democrats' best friends:

By January 2009, the United States had accumulated $10.6 trillion in debt. That's the net amount the country had borrowed from Washington through the Bush years.

The gross national debt now stands at $19.7 trillion. That's an increase of $9.1 trillion — not quite a doubling, but pretty close.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/19/news/ec ... index.html


Regardless, no, I'm not forgetting Bush's trillions of debt. But to attempt to compare the two is just absurd... and I'm guessing you know that. (Or simply haven't bothered to research the subject, beyond finding a graph that fits your hopes.)

But, as I said, at least in Trump's case, I'm getting something out of it...
 
wingman
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Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:17 pm

So you did not personally benefit, nor a single friend, family member or co-worker from Obama’s salvation of tbe United States economy from the epic collapse delivered to him on his insuguration day? Neither you nor anyone you know did not benefit from a 50% reduction in unemployment or a 175% gain in the stock market? You sir are a pathetic, lying sack of shit. Please tell us how you would've tackled the worst global economic catastrophe since 1929.
 
seb146
Posts: 16692
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:30 pm

PPVRA wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Older generations that are more likely to be in the 1% :

Image


Keynesian economics was a total disaster, which is why there was a huge political change that allowed for a change in economic thinking. Stagflation proved Keynes wrong. The entire planet has slowly realized and abandoned his ideas, though not completely yet. The third world still clings to it harder than anyone else.

It's absurd to suggest things were going great until 1979.


Really? Because, according to all graphs and reports we have ever seen, things were going great until Reagan took over. The rich were getting richer, the poor were getting richer and we all were doing pretty good until Reagan took over.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
seb146
Posts: 16692
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:32 pm

The orange one has begun yet another vacation (after he said he would not have time) and tells a group of his rich friends how much better off they will be with this tax bill

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/1 ... e_facebook

But passing a bill without reading it was such a good idea....
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7731
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:42 pm

NoTime wrote:
The gross national debt now stands at $19.7 trillion. That's an increase of $9.1 trillion — not quite a doubling, but pretty close.


Any that contains how many billions in interest payments on just predecessors debt? 4 trillion or So?

Regardless, no, I'm not forgetting Bush's trillions of debt. But to attempt to compare the two is just absurd...


It is totally absurd, as Bush chose to increase the debt, while Obama had to deal with a real economic breakdown..
Still better than now, where republicans pile debt on debt for not better reason than buying donations with tax payers money.

But, as I said, at least in Trump's case, I'm getting something out of it...


Now or also past 2027? I would also be surprised if you didn't benefit from Bush's tax cuts not Obama's...

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 16371
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:34 pm

bgm wrote:
NoTime wrote:
See Obama's trillions upon trillions of additional debt.


Conveniently forgetting Bush's 'trillions upon trillions' of debt? Selective amnesia perhaps? Let me help you:

Image

Weird how two wars, a nuked economy, bailouts, and Bush tax cuts were all Obama's fault before he even was elected

wingman wrote:
So you did not personally benefit, nor a single friend, family member or co-worker from Obama’s salvation of tbe United States economy from the epic collapse delivered to him on his insuguration day?

It's almost as if the election was not about the economy :roll: :ghost:
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Ken777
Posts: 9547
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: Tax reform win.

Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:00 pm

seb146 wrote:
Really? Because, according to all graphs and reports we have ever seen, things were going great until Reagan took over. The rich were getting richer, the poor were getting richer and we all were doing pretty good until Reagan took over.


The GOP has been very good at feeding the rich and staving the poor. Trump is simply the worst example of this deviant behavior.

The GOP has also had major problems with a Black Democrat needed to keep the country out of a real depression - especially a Republican Caused Great Recession.

The big question now for the GOP is will he bottom 50% be pushed down enough to get the next GOP recession started?
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