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CarlosSi
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Net Neutrality

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:25 pm

This sums it up

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalz ... ad1fc54c68

As I’ve mentioned before elsewhere, the internet is a MASSIVE vehicle of free speech; a right and in the 1st constitutional amendment. To limit the proficiency of websites as a result of this would essentially be infringing on the 1st amendment (not prevent all free speech, but seriously limit it).

If this is a valid point, I wish someone with power would realize this and take it to the Supreme Court and hopefully vote in favor of keeping net neutrality, because the internet is a medium of (free) speech, just like money is also a form of speech....
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Net Neutrality

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:32 pm

Ok I admit, the internet is more than just a means of free speech, and the internet’s purpose isn’t only political, but that means we have more reason to keep the internet safe from unfettered big-money interests, as they are always troublesome and don’t have the general public in their best-interests..
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Net Neutrality

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:42 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
If this is a valid point, I wish someone with power would realize this and take it to the Supreme Court and hopefully vote in favor of keeping net neutrality, because the internet is a medium of (free) speech, just like money is also a form of speech....


If the FCC votes to repeal Title II regulations, it means we will return to the regulatory framework that existed in 2015. How is that a problem?

The net neutrality debate doesn't have anything to do with free speech or an open internet. It's about who pays for the expensive infrastructure to stream 4K video content. The Forbes author makes a grave logical error when he concludes that repealing Title II will relegate small content providers to slow-lanes and big content providers to fast-lanes. There won't be any fast-lanes if ISPs can't recuperate their investment. Everyone will be in the slow-lane.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
N867DA
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Re: Net Neutrality

Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:55 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
If this is a valid point, I wish someone with power would realize this and take it to the Supreme Court and hopefully vote in favor of keeping net neutrality, because the internet is a medium of (free) speech, just like money is also a form of speech....


If the FCC votes to repeal Title II regulations, it means we will return to the regulatory framework that existed in 2015. How is that a problem?

The net neutrality debate doesn't have anything to do with free speech or an open internet. It's about who pays for the expensive infrastructure to stream 4K video content. The Forbes author makes a grave logical error when he concludes that repealing Title II will relegate small content providers to slow-lanes and big content providers to fast-lanes. There won't be any fast-lanes if ISPs can't recuperate their investment. Everyone will be in the slow-lane.


This is disingenuous because Title II regulations were put in place once it became apparent ISPs were trying to violate the principle of Net Neutrality, and regulatory action is needed to enforce it. Net neutrality has always been the way the internet works but the regulation wasn't needed until recently.

Giving ISPs the right to determine the price points to view certain types of content sets a bad precedent and it's anti-consumer. ISPs are free to charge based on the connection speed, and more recently how much data is consumed through bandwidth caps and overage charges. These are legal now and are in fact already in place. Watch a lot of Netflix? Then you may pay an overage. The only reason ISPs want the right to treat packets from edge provider A differently than B is because they want to use these powers to make it harder to access some content in favor of other content.

Is it acceptable to have a marketplace where Comcast could zero-rate Hulu, which they own and competes against Netflix, while also charging customers a special $10 fee if they use Netflix? Seems like it's letting ISPs browbeat consumers into using their 'preferred' service. ISPs make a healthy profit and taxpayers have provided plenty of funding for them to expand but they've allocated poorly and are playing a victim after screwing up for decades.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Net Neutrality

Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:18 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
If this is a valid point, I wish someone with power would realize this and take it to the Supreme Court and hopefully vote in favor of keeping net neutrality, because the internet is a medium of (free) speech, just like money is also a form of speech....


If the FCC votes to repeal Title II regulations, it means we will return to the regulatory framework that existed in 2015. How is that a problem?

The net neutrality debate doesn't have anything to do with free speech or an open internet. It's about who pays for the expensive infrastructure to stream 4K video content. The Forbes author makes a grave logical error when he concludes that repealing Title II will relegate small content providers to slow-lanes and big content providers to fast-lanes. There won't be any fast-lanes if ISPs can't recuperate their investment. Everyone will be in the slow-lane.


N-DA answered a good amount.

It doesn’t have anything to do with free speech, but the internet does have to do with free speech in a way.. I admit I did stretch the extent to which the internet is a medium of free speech, but it’s still limiting our means of communication/entertainment/etc. to do without NN.

I was trying to find a means to which repealing NN would actually cause constitutional harm.
 
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Jetsgo
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Re: Net Neutrality

Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:44 pm

I don't recall the internet being any different 24 months ago when net neutrality passed. It was a solution in search of a problem. What's changed? Should a personal hobby weather monitor have equal access as a PS4 streaming 4K?
Marine Corps Aviation, The Last To Let You Down!
 
N867DA
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Re: Net Neutrality

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:02 pm

Jetsgo wrote:
I don't recall the internet being any different 24 months ago when net neutrality passed. It was a solution in search of a problem. What's changed? Should a personal hobby weather monitor have equal access as a PS4 streaming 4K?


People keep saying this, and I'm not sure if there are media outlets spreading or if if the fact that it's a 2015 policy that's confusing--net neutrality has always been there. ISPs respected it for 20+ years, then they didn't, and regulation was put in place to keep things the exact same as they always have been. Getting rid of net neutrality basically means your ISP can charge you to access specific content. Most people have only one option for residential broadband, and there will be no recourse.

This isn't like saying, "let's make a tollway because there are several other routes possible". This is like saying, "let's give the keys to raise and lower the only drawbridge around for hundreds of miles to this one guy, and he can lower it for people he likes!".
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Net Neutrality

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:39 pm

How about Myth vs. Fact. Q&A

http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Release ... 7961A1.pdf

Lots of meaningless hysteria that needs to be dispelled.

The internet thrived pre-2015 and will do so again.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
salttee
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Re: Net Neutrality

Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:50 pm

Why would anyone other than someone making money off of the advertisement industry be opposed to net neutrality???
 
Mir
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Re: Net Neutrality

Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:51 pm

LAXintl wrote:
How about Myth vs. Fact. Q&A

http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Release ... 7961A1.pdf

Lots of meaningless hysteria that needs to be dispelled.

The internet thrived pre-2015 and will do so again.


Of course the "facts" are untruths and supposition. It is the Trump government, after all.

Most of the defense boils down to "well, it wasn't a problem before, so it won't be a problem again", which ignores the fact that the whole reason the Obama government made the change is that it was starting to become a problem. The examples of ISPs throttling content and trying to prevent people from accessing apps like Skype so that they'd be forced to use their own VOIP providers are well documented.

Throttling and exclusive access agreements are going to be cash cows for ISPs. It's folly to think that they're not going to go for them if given the opportunity. The end result is that the ISPs get a lot richer and we end up paying more for the same service. No thanks.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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mercure1
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Re: Net Neutrality

Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:12 am

I am not sure why American friend here believe access and content cannot be differentiated, or oppose letting marketplace decide instead of forced government regulations. Is America after all not the land of capitalism and free market place?

In Europe we have nice packages that cover both data volumes and for types of content received from the internet companies. For example, if you are a high data user due to watching lots of Netflix or other video services, for example, you can purchase a video bundle since you consume so much specific data. Same goes for some websites whose access is free(often paid sponsorship for by content creators) and not counted towards usage totals while others are premium data charge.

To me this is the most honest and fair method is to pay for what consumes. Its quite clear and upfront method. As they say its 'pay for play' and choice is in consumer hands as to what they opt to utilize and pay for.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Net Neutrality

Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:45 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
It's about who pays for the expensive infrastructure to stream 4K video content.


last time i checked i was paying my ISP for having the infrastructure and delivering data to me. Letting net neutrality go will either have no effect in the best case, or enable them to sell bandwidth twice, once to me and once to a content provider, and ultimately give a higher priority to the traffic of content providers that i may or may not visit.

Logistics is important too, having infrastructure is as well, but no one is suggesting that Amazon may pay a little more and get priority for its trucks on highways either.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
salttee
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Re: Net Neutrality

Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:13 am

mercure1 wrote:
I am not sure why American friend here believe access and content cannot be differentiated, or oppose letting marketplace decide instead of forced government regulations. Is America after all not the land of capitalism and free market place?

In Europe we have nice packages that cover both data volumes and for types of content received from the internet companies. For example, if you are a high data user due to watching lots of Netflix or other video services, for example, you can purchase a video bundle since you consume so much specific data. Same goes for some websites whose access is free(often paid sponsorship for by content creators) and not counted towards usage totals while others are premium data charge.

To me this is the most honest and fair method is to pay for what consumes.
To me what you just described sounds like a recipe for manipulation and abuse. What business is it of my ISP whether I'm downloading data that displays as a movie or data that comes from news sites?

And as has been pointed out, not everyone has the option of changing ISPs if they don't like the deal they are presented with.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Net Neutrality

Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:30 am

salttee wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
I am not sure why American friend here believe access and content cannot be differentiated, or oppose letting marketplace decide instead of forced government regulations. Is America after all not the land of capitalism and free market place?

In Europe we have nice packages that cover both data volumes and for types of content received from the internet companies. For example, if you are a high data user due to watching lots of Netflix or other video services, for example, you can purchase a video bundle since you consume so much specific data. Same goes for some websites whose access is free(often paid sponsorship for by content creators) and not counted towards usage totals while others are premium data charge.

To me this is the most honest and fair method is to pay for what consumes.
To me what you just described sounds like a recipe for manipulation and abuse. What business is it of my ISP whether I'm downloading data that displays as a movie or data that comes from news sites?

And as has been pointed out, not everyone has the option of changing ISPs if they don't like the deal they are presented with.


Plus it is apples and oranges, in his example the user is paying for getting more than his standard contract, with net neutrality I don't get to chose of my Netflix account becomes ultimately more expensive because they pay my provider money for something I already pay them for.

Best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
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Narfish641
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Re: Net Neutrality

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:02 am

The point for me is that without net neutrality everything will become screwed! No I am not trying to over react, but a lot has changed over time. From education and research, to applications for a job or college, dealing with taxes. Even the non-important stuff like chilling watching YouTube videos or movies on Hulu, playing games online, to sharing some of your stories on Facebook or Twitter. With Net Neutrality, we have freedom to go anywhere on the internet without restrictions. Even with small businesses, it helps them to thrive and spread their goods and services around the world. And taking that away of course is not of anyway the end of the world, but it could be a hell hole for the mass majority of us if this law passed.

Companies can lose money, people can loose their jobs, and in general it can be hard to access it. If I would to order something on eBay, there is no way in hell I'd pay for a God forsaking package just to go on a site and shop for something that I want or need.

And what about social media? There's also no way in hell I'd pay money to get on my YouTube or Facebook just to share content or even my aviation videos I have.

And what about this site? Where all aviation enthusiast all around the world can see updates on airlines, aircrafts, manufactures, or even stuff like this? Would you pay extra money just to get on a website like this for everyone? HELL NO! I rather access this website for free and enjoy my hobby of aircrafts! And there's something wrong when a dumb rule like what the FCC is pulling off is self-centered and retarded!

It might not be serious to anyone, but it's serious to me and a whole heap of other people. Times has changed and technology has improved alot. But when you think about the FCC doing this, it's dumb. And I hope everyone can understand. I'm not here to bash anyone, your opinion is opinion. But this law that's about to be put out next week, is DUMB.

#SaveNetNeutrality
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bhill
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Re: Net Neutrality

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:30 pm

I think it is time for the "Internet"..in the US anyway, and the ISP's... to be treated like a utility. You use more...you pay more...not on the CONTENT of the packets, but the AMOUNT...just like trucks on the highways for heavier loads and the water and power one uses. Keep in mind that many folks use VoIP exclusively rather than POTs nowadays...The Internet and broadband are almost to the point of being required in one way or another to conduct day to day business now....
Carpe Pices
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Net Neutrality

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:00 pm

bhill wrote:
I think it is time for the "Internet"..in the US anyway, and the ISP's... to be treated like a utility. You use more...you pay more...not on the CONTENT of the packets, but the AMOUNT...just like trucks on the highways for heavier loads and the water and power one uses. Keep in mind that many folks use VoIP exclusively rather than POTs nowadays...The Internet and broadband are almost to the point of being required in one way or another to conduct day to day business now....
Don't we already do this? I know I have data limits on my phone and plans with more data cost more. This doesn't really have anything to do with net neutrality though.
 
bhill
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Re: Net Neutrality

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:29 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
bhill wrote:
I think it is time for the "Internet"..in the US anyway, and the ISP's... to be treated like a utility. You use more...you pay more...not on the CONTENT of the packets, but the AMOUNT...just like trucks on the highways for heavier loads and the water and power one uses. Keep in mind that many folks use VoIP exclusively rather than POTs nowadays...The Internet and broadband are almost to the point of being required in one way or another to conduct day to day business now....
Don't we already do this? I know I have data limits on my phone and plans with more data cost more. This doesn't really have anything to do with net neutrality though.


Some do, some do not....Net "un-neutrality" would be like the phone company...cell or POT's.... charging you more for English vs any other language used in the conversation...again, charge for AMOUNT used rather than CONTENT....I would also like to know how the companies have any business knowing WHAT is in the packets I am consuming...
Carpe Pices
 
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casinterest
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Re: Net Neutrality

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:05 pm

There need to be regulations to enforce net-neutrality. To say that the free market will take care of it,is pure bullshit.

The network protocol stacks in use between software/hw servers that are used to transfer data back and forth are designed and specified with headers that can be used to throttle,block and limit traffic.

Within that framework rules need to be enforced to prevent people from being blocked from access by arbitrary "free market" rules.
Having said that,

Title 2 of the communication act of 1934, is probably not the best way to define a common carrier. However until Congress does it's job and defines a more workable framework, it is obscene for the FCC to acquiesce to a request from the carriers to basically have free will in throttling traffic .

In this day and age where youtube, netflix, amazon prime and other services are streaming heavy bundles of streaming traffic, your voice calls and real time communications could get shafted by ISP's pushing their own service agendas.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Net Neutrality

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:40 pm

Net neutrality sounds a lot like people who don't question why an airline still charges an arm and a leg to fly, making record profits, etc. That we had to trust that airlines would make the right call when their financial situation improved...and if we didn't like it, we could always take the train or drive.

Example: bags. Used to be included in your ticket. Now you pay to check it in, and up to a certain limit. In the meantime, airlines bank millions while making the onboard experience crappier.

Imagine an ISP throttling back service to Netflix and then asking you to pay extra to view it. And then a few months later, a fee increase again...and then later on, being limited by total data content (10Gs of streaming in total). All while the same infrastructure remains in place.

And yet we're supposed to believe that the free market will sort it out?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
tommy1808
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Re: Net Neutrality

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:06 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Imagine an ISP throttling back service to Netflix and then asking you to pay extra to view it. And then a few months later, a fee increase again...and then later on, being limited by total data content (10Gs of streaming in total). All while the same infrastructure remains in place.

And yet we're supposed to believe that the free market will sort it out?


In Germany a couple of ISPs tried to get a "fair use policy" into their contracts a few years back. The market did sort that out rather quickly, the market demands flatrates.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D

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