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TS-IOR
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Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:54 pm

The truck drivers in the A.net community and those involved in the logistics, motor freight business should know what i'm talking about here. For the others, ELD is the acronym for Electronic Logging Device and the mandate is a FMCSA regulation that is going into effect next Monday, December 18 and which is requiring every big rig to have this device connected to log by the second each move, rest or any duty. Until now logging activity was on paper filled in by the driver. No change to the HOS i.e. hours of service, but the flexibility to manage the duties according to real, day to day driver's needs and performance is now no more possible. No body will be able to utter whatever mile driven at any time, at any place. Truckers were, and still are, limited to 70 hours on duty over a 8 days period and 11 hours squeezed in a 14 hours window per 24 hours. Now this is wonderful, and you may be discovering this and crying WOW for the 70 hours per week. It is a good amount of work. The 11 hours driving is also a good amount of time and that's a good 700 plus miles a day. The hassle that gives a credit to paper over any electronic stuff is the 14 hours window in which everything should be done otherwise you are screwed at a shipper or a parking lot or an exit in the middle of nowhere because you are short of hours. This is what making truckers very angry and disappointed by this regulation. If someone starts the day at 7am at a truck stop, drives 5 minutes to a shipper around the corner, spends 2 hours waiting for a dock (although arrived according to appointment), and then another 2 hours loading, and then another 45 minutes waiting for bills... it's already 5 unpaid hours gone, and then when hitting the road only 8 of the 11 hours are available to drive and make money. 8 hours within traffic congestion and other constraints like appointments to deliver, weather, unexpected events... With paper, drivers used to go over these gaps and manage to drive the due 11 hours or equivalent in miles, 750 let's say, and this is what's making goods arrive on time to consumers and also makes drivers emancipated and relaxed doing the job they know the most. When a nap is needed, a safe and professional driver will pull over to the next rest aea and rest, and later on this lapse of time would be edited to optimize daily productivity. No cheating as they love to call it. This is time optimization at an era where every activity is wanted to be optimized. What is goingh to happen now is that more and more tired or over rested (same) and frustrated drivers will be on the highway night and day running after a clock ticking and not giving any interest to the real situation which changes day by day. Speeding and reckless driving will become more usual among 18 wheels and this is dangerous and has no clue with safety as legislators are promoting. The 14 hours of work out of 24 should be open, not limited within any window and should be drivable, because someone who loads in NYC on Monday heading LAX area, on days 2 and 3 and 4 no other activitry will be done except driving. If the 11 hours are completed and still has 2 hours plus of duty to perform (allowed by the legislator) why not driving in these 2 hours instead of going to rest when no rest is physically needed. No adult on earth can sleep when a device tolds him/her to do so. I don't know if analogy could be done to pilots flying and resting hours, but the debate is here to discuss these rules they come with out of nowhere, stick the magic safety word on it and just get stupid unaware people vote for it. What if hours of driving are imposed on 4 wheelers?! Imagine that! How many recreational vehicule goes coast to coast in 48 to 60 hours maximum.. who is controlling these? Anyone to pull'em over?! Were they really compromizing safety doing this?! Same for professional pilots versus private pilots.. is this fair?!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:59 pm

That's ok when you're all mandated to drive Tesla Semis you won't be able to drive 700 miles in an 11 hour period.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:11 pm

It seems to me that if Idle time is that bad, then drivers should be compensated based on hours worked, not miles driven. They should be prorated in some arenas for miles driven if it is Long Haul, but idle time is a part of doing the job, and should be paid out.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
johns624
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:24 pm

Many of the larger fleets have had electronic logs for years so it's no difference to them.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:12 pm

If you're somewhere for your employer then you're working and should be paid accordingly.

If you prefer some kind of fatigue detecting camera installed watching you, I'm fine with that.

Of course driving as a job (or necessity, or pleasure) will soon disappear.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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TS-IOR
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:55 pm

Aesma wrote:
If you're somewhere for your employer then you're working and should be paid accordingly.

If you prefer some kind of fatigue detecting camera installed watching you, I'm fine with that.

Of course driving as a job (or necessity, or pleasure) will soon disappear.


That fatigue detecting camera is not a bad idea. It's about money, of course, but it's also about home time. One can shorten the time out by up to two days each trip, assuming a trip is a one-way out of home base and return.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:58 pm

I predict that's how it will first eventually work in the Republic of California. All vehicles and roads, will be electronically monitored. You want to go to Yosemite on July 15th, fine, you need to make a reservation. No approved reservation, means you are not approved to even travel on 49 or 120, until that day. And the required electronics in your California vehicle will give you away if you try and travel on those roads. I guess they could fine you into submission.

This will all be accomplished in the name of controlling traffic congestion, less vehicle emissions in traffic jams. The Master Control Computer, run by some Google Alphabet Company will integrate and oversee it all.

What could go wrong??
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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Jetsgo
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:50 am

I work for a nationwide truck leasing organization and we keep hearing from our customers that due the ELD mandate, they’re expecting their tractor utilization to fall by roughly 30%. Straight trucks will fair better, but it’s important to remember ELD’s will be required in any commercial vehicle in excess of 10,000 GVW. Decreased utilization and continued driver shortages is creating a lot of uncertainty industry wide. Freight prices are beginning to reflect that as a result with some runs paying close to $3.00/mile. We’re in for a wild ride in 2018 and anyone that tells you they have the slightest idea how things will play out is merely speculating at best.
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ltbewr
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:14 am

Could the original post have been broken up into some paragraphs ?
The mandate of ELD's while overall is a great idea, it is going to present a several issues and conflict with rules.

In many places, you cannot just park your truck off the road and take the law mandated rest at the demanded time as no real legal or safe areas to do so. Most places where deliver won't let you stay on their lots. Many states cut back on state rest stops for budget reasons. Many communities ban or severely limit parking of commercial vehicles on their streets or overnight. There are not enough commercial facilities as NIMBY's keep their numbers and size down and when available, cut into your pay with parking fees.

Will the time slowed down by bad weather, accidents and related traffic jams, be able to be adjusted or taken into account ?

Then there is the time wasted waiting to get unloaded and get paperwork done, fueling and mx of your truck.

It also doesn't mean the driver is fully rested between shifts of driving, as like with the infamous Walmart truck crash on the NJ Turnpike where the SNL comic was almost killed and killed his mentor. That Walmart driver had drove 12 hours from GA in his car before he got into the cab of his truck in DE, was almost out of clock time at the time of the crash .

To me the real answers will be using trains more to move trailers for the longest hauls (over 1500 miles) and use of relays of trucks and drivers, like UPS and some trucking companies use, so drivers do the same route each work day, do the 'last mile' driving and home every or almost every night.
 
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moo
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:44 am

The US are only just getting this done?

Tachographs have been mandated within the EEC since 1986, and commercial heavy vehicles built after 2006 have had to include a digital tachograph, basically covering all the issues covered in this new mandate in the US.

I'm amazed it's only just happening...
 
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TS-IOR
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:57 am

Do not compare with Europe, no comparison at all. Different roads and much longer distances to cross. Am glad some guys here are really into the issue and know what are talking about. No BS being said, unlike some specialized websites and pages where it's only a childish fight between the pros and the cons ELD.
 
Ken777
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:51 am

As time goes on there will be an understanding of the problems with the technology and rules. Start what happens with the two drivers in a truck, trading out every 4 hours on a long haul? Do drivers have to enter their fingerprint before they start driving?

What about drivers with sleep apnea? My auto pap communicates with the manufacturer every day with core data. There should be no problem connecting the device with the trucker's home office.

It's also important to understand that if you can describe a process it can be programmed. The problem is being able to describe all the variations that are possible. That seems to be where the law is now. Wait until these issues become obvious and get addressed.
 
WIederling
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:41 am

TS-IOR wrote:
Do not compare with Europe, no comparison at all. Different roads and much longer distances to cross. Am glad some guys here are really into the issue and know what are talking about. No BS being said, unlike some specialized websites and pages where it's only a childish fight between the pros and the cons ELD.


Germany introduced them in the early 50ties for HGV above 7.5t ( later extended down to 3.5t. i.e. all vehicles that have lower speed limit than is route intrinsic.)
I don't see why "Different roads and much longer distances to cross." should make any difference at all.
( They've been on train engines forever.)
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B777LRF
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:49 pm

TS-IOR wrote:
Do not compare with Europe, no comparison at all. Different roads and much longer distances to cross.


Funny that. I often see trucks in Scandinavia with license plates from far flung places such as Turkey, Spain, Bulgaria and Ukraine. Googlemaps tells me the distance from Istanbul to Stockholm is 3.500 km, which is right around the same as New York to Salt Lake City. As for 'different roads', having driven in Eastern Europe and the US, the highways are very much the same. That is, varying degrees of crap. Main difference is, gas stations are much closer on the US highway system.

What surprises me most, however, is how long a US truck driver is allowed to be behind the wheel without a break. Under EU rules, which every truck operating in the UK has to conform to regardless of where the vehicle is registered, the rules are as follows:

Max time behind the wheel: 4,5 hours. Must be followed by a break of at least 45 minutes, before driving for another 4,5 hours, for a maximum driving of 9 hours in a 24 hour period. This can be extended to 10 hours twice a week, as follows: 4,5 hours driving / 45 minutes break / 4,5 hours driving / 45 minutes break / 1 hour driving. Maximum driving hours in a week is 56, but in two consecutive weeks max is 90 hours. There is also a rule stating the driver must rest for a consecutive 11 hours in each 24 hour period.

Seems to me the US is way, way, way behind the safety curve.
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ltbewr
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:10 pm

B777LRF wrote:
TS-IOR wrote:
Do not compare with Europe, no comparison at all. Different roads and much longer distances to cross.


Seems to me the US is way, way, way behind the safety curve.


Yes, we are due to pressures (and bribes...um.. campaign contributions) from trucking companies and independent owner/operators on our politicians. There are way too many large truck crashes, too often deadly and causing major traffic issues. I am quite sure people are already working on hacks for their ELD systems. Almost all fleet trucks are speed limited to 62-68 MPH mainly for fuel savings and to be around the speed limits on our main roads (60-75) so that puts more pressure on operators and drivers to max and 'stretch' hours and speed. Many trucks are not inspected regularly as to safety and weight and word of mouth helps driver avoid check points that are set up or open to do them. In many cases of crashes involving heavy trucks, sleep deprivation is a serious problem, and more should be done to check for sleep apnea with drivers. Phone use while driving, even with 'hands free' set ups and other distractions also hinder safe driving (and not just with truckers). In the USA, our standards to get a driving license are far less strict than in parts of the EC so many drivers are not good around heavy trucks and cause many accidents.
 
CPH-R
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:01 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Max time behind the wheel: 4,5 hours. Must be followed by a break of at least 45 minutes, before driving for another 4,5 hours, for a maximum driving of 9 hours in a 24 hour period. This can be extended to 10 hours twice a week, as follows: 4,5 hours driving / 45 minutes break / 4,5 hours driving / 45 minutes break / 1 hour driving. Maximum driving hours in a week is 56, but in two consecutive weeks max is 90 hours. There is also a rule stating the driver must rest for a consecutive 11 hours in each 24 hour period.

And the rest period can be reduced to 10 hours three times between two weekly rest periods. And those weekly rest periods, which must be at least 45 hours, can be reduced to.. 24? hours, provided the remaining 21 hours are then taken with another rest period within three weeks.

I'm so glad my driving is exempt from driving rules, although we do adher to the 11-hour rest period rule.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:00 pm

11-hour rest is EU-wide for all jobs.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:11 am

Jetsgo wrote:
I work for a nationwide truck leasing organization and we keep hearing from our customers that due the ELD mandate, they’re expecting their tractor utilization to fall by roughly 30%. Straight trucks will fair better, but it’s important to remember ELD’s will be required in any commercial vehicle in excess of 10,000 GVW. Decreased utilization and continued driver shortages is creating a lot of uncertainty industry wide. Freight prices are beginning to reflect that as a result with some runs paying close to $3.00/mile. We’re in for a wild ride in 2018 and anyone that tells you they have the slightest idea how things will play out is merely speculating at best.

If your utilization is down 30% just because you switch to ELDs you were fudging them to begin with. This is exactly why the government is doing it.
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WIederling
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:51 am

Jetsgo wrote:
I work for a nationwide truck leasing organization and we keep hearing from our customers that due the ELD mandate, they’re expecting their tractor utilization to fall by roughly 30%. Straight trucks will fair better, but it’s important to remember ELD’s will be required in any commercial vehicle in excess of 10,000 GVW. Decreased utilization and continued driver shortages is creating a lot of uncertainty industry wide. Freight prices are beginning to reflect that as a result with some runs paying close to $3.00/mile. We’re in for a wild ride in 2018 and anyone that tells you they have the slightest idea how things will play out is merely speculating at best.


doesn't that just show that most profit is derived from stealing/damaging the commons?
i.e. a public to private transfer of wealth.
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cjg225
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:17 pm

Jetsgo wrote:
I work for a nationwide truck leasing organization and we keep hearing from our customers that due the ELD mandate, they’re expecting their tractor utilization to fall by roughly 30%. Straight trucks will fair better, but it’s important to remember ELD’s will be required in any commercial vehicle in excess of 10,000 GVW. Decreased utilization and continued driver shortages is creating a lot of uncertainty industry wide. Freight prices are beginning to reflect that as a result with some runs paying close to $3.00/mile. We’re in for a wild ride in 2018 and anyone that tells you they have the slightest idea how things will play out is merely speculating at best.

I haven't heard anything approaching 30% effective capacity reduction overall. I've heard between 2% on the way low end and 10% on the more reasonably upper end.

Where this gets tricky is in situations where drivers have to spend an enormous amount of time basically stationary, like queuing at container terminals or sitting in detention at bad shippers/consignees. In the past, drivers, could relatively easily count that time as "off-duty." ELDs will basically eliminate it. It could present huge problems in drayage, especially.

johns624 wrote:
Many of the larger fleets have had electronic logs for years so it's no difference to them.

It will... to the positive. Because the larger fleets already have ELDs or grandfathered AOBRs installed, they'll be the beneficiaries when the spot market goes through the roof because of the capacity crunch that comes from the smaller fleets dropping out of the market. That's my biggest concern as the NA transportation manager for my company right now. All the carriers we use through our broker are ELD-compliant already, but I am concerned about the carriers chasing the spot market as their non-ELD-compliant brethren drop out.

WIederling wrote:
Germany introduced them in the early 50ties for HGV above 7.5t ( later extended down to 3.5t. i.e. all vehicles that have lower speed limit than is route intrinsic.)
I don't see why "Different roads and much longer distances to cross." should make any difference at all.
( They've been on train engines forever.)

It's not just the physical differences between the NA and EU in terms of roads and distances. The NA and EU road cargo markets are wildly different. It extends way beyond the density of the continent to how companies are organized, operated, managed, regulated, etc. and how shippers and carriers interact, amongst a great many things.

B777LRF wrote:
Funny that. I often see trucks in Scandinavia with license plates from far flung places such as Turkey, Spain, Bulgaria and Ukraine. Googlemaps tells me the distance from Istanbul to Stockholm is 3.500 km, which is right around the same as New York to Salt Lake City. As for 'different roads', having driven in Eastern Europe and the US, the highways are very much the same. That is, varying degrees of crap. Main difference is, gas stations are much closer on the US highway system.


My understanding is that that is way more about EU driver regulations than it is indicative of heavily traded lanes between those countries.

Seems to me the US is way, way, way behind the safety curve.

In a manner of speaking. ELDs are expected to substantially improve safety because most accidents where a CDL driver is at fault are due to violations of the existing Hours of Service regulations. Are current HOS regulations are generally fine... if they're followed.

Truck drivers in the US get a very bad rap. The vast majority of accidents involving Class 8 heavy trucks are the fault of the non-Class 8 party involved, such as a personal vehicle driver.
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cjg225
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Well, already this week we've been seeing the impact of drivers not having as much flexibility to note "off-duty" instead of "on duty, not driving" in their log books. With the holidays upon us, finding team drivers is a massive pain, so some solo runs out of our distribution center are becoming dicey. My transportation broker is tearing its hair out trying to find us trucks.
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TS-IOR
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:11 pm

Under paper log it has never been a matter of driving beyond 11 hours because mileage could speak for itself. If you are governed to 65, at the end of the day you cannot show you have run more than 715 miles to the best of traffic and weather conditions.. unless you want to be screwed at a DOT inspection and laughed at by a few officers. Paper allows to erase all this downtime spent on stop and go and backups and at customers retained, and the need to circumvent comes from the 14 hours window. E-log is making drivers hate that minute they stop to pee.. imagine that. If the window is cancelled or extended everybody will like it, all the involved in the chain. Keep those 11 hours, extend that window and split that rest time and you will get an even smoother transfer of goods and happier people doing it.
 
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cjg225
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:53 pm

TS-IOR wrote:
Under paper log it has never been a matter of driving beyond 11 hours because mileage could speak for itself. If you are governed to 65, at the end of the day you cannot show you have run more than 715 miles to the best of traffic and weather conditions.. unless you want to be screwed at a DOT inspection and laughed at by a few officers. Paper allows to erase all this downtime spent on stop and go and backups and at customers retained, and the need to circumvent comes from the 14 hours window. E-log is making drivers hate that minute they stop to pee.. imagine that. If the window is cancelled or extended everybody will like it, all the involved in the chain. Keep those 11 hours, extend that window and split that rest time and you will get an even smoother transfer of goods and happier people doing it.

Oh, absolutely. This has always been more about the 14 hour rule than the 11 hour rule.

Unlikely, but maybe this will help shippers and consignees treat drivers better. Better loading/unload practices, better facilities for the drivers to wait...
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Aesma
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:53 pm

Well the human body is like that, every minute awake adds fatigue.
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tommy1808
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:25 pm

Aesma wrote:
Well the human body is like that, every minute awake adds fatigue.


:checkmark:

And on top of that at some point one rest period won't fully restore you anymore, and once that gets going you become a real danger to yourself and others by the end of a working week.

Truck accidents on highways often meens temporary closure of that HW, which is not just annoying for those stuck in the resulting jam, but easily ramps up a million in costs and economic losses. Macroeconomicilly it is cheaper to make transport more expensive, which is what rules like this do, even if it just avoids few accidents.

Best regards
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cjg225
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:51 pm

Except when they have unintended consequences, like the "Reset period with two consecutive 1am-5am blocks" rule that was rolled back a couple years ago. It was virtually guaranteeing that there as a glut of trucks entering the highways at rush hour, usually on Mondays.
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ltbewr
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:53 am

One example of a problem with ELD's and recent backups was occurring at Port Newark/Elizabeth in NJ. Bad weather recently in the Midwest USA meant slow movements of trains and a lack of empty railcars to take out containers and not enough slack in trucks being available. It was taking 10 days to move a container from the Port to Buffalo, NY, about 550 miles away. As not enough trucks available due to ELD's placing limits on drivers' time or unless have a 2nd driver as well as the huge numbers of trucks to actually move as much as a train run.
 
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cjg225
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Re: Dec.18 the ELD mandate for US truckers

Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:40 pm

ltbewr wrote:
One example of a problem with ELD's and recent backups was occurring at Port Newark/Elizabeth in NJ. Bad weather recently in the Midwest USA meant slow movements of trains and a lack of empty railcars to take out containers and not enough slack in trucks being available. It was taking 10 days to move a container from the Port to Buffalo, NY, about 550 miles away. As not enough trucks available due to ELD's placing limits on drivers' time or unless have a 2nd driver as well as the huge numbers of trucks to actually move as much as a train run.

Someone else reads JOC, apparently. :D
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