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EA CO AS
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:53 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
bmacleod wrote:
Yes I too liked "The Force Awakens" much better - Last Jedi seemed to "cut and paste" from previous episodes.

Big question for Ep. IX - who are Rey's parents?


The more I reflect on TLJ, the more I like it. Elements from ESB and ROTJ, reversed in some ways, and bringing in the Emperor's leitmotif while Snoke tortures Rey was a nice touch..


I liked those links back in "history". I think someone on the team really liked BSG, the whole narrative reminds me of the fabulous episode "33".

best regards
Thomas


Agreed on the BSG episode and how they mirrored that in TLJ.
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cjg225
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:17 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
I disagree that Rey's parental story line was answered. Kylo Ren claims that they were nobodies but he could have been lying
or just saying that because Snoke had manipulated him into believing that. IMO, we still don't know who her parents were.

Possible. I don't really have a problem with that because I've never viewed her lineage as that important, and I never expected her to be from the bloodline of any of the major characters.

Still, it's a very blunt-force way of dealing with (for now) something that they clearly were building up in TFA and in the media over the last 2 years.
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bmacleod
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:43 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

The more I reflect on TLJ, the more I like it. Elements from ESB and ROTJ, reversed in some ways, and bringing in the Emperor's leitmotif while Snoke tortures Rey was a nice touch..


I liked those links back in "history". I think someone on the team really liked BSG, the whole narrative reminds me of the fabulous episode "33".

best regards
Thomas


Agreed on the BSG episode and how they mirrored that in TLJ.


BSG?
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petertenthije
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:03 pm

bmacleod wrote:
BSG?
The TV series Battlestar Galactica.
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bmacleod
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:34 pm

petertenthije wrote:
bmacleod wrote:
BSG?
The TV series Battlestar Galactica.


Thanks for the info. I remember seeing one episode and there's some resemblance to Star Wars storyline but when SyFy released "The Expanse", I found that story-line much closer to BSG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expanse_(TV_series)
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texdravid
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:25 am

Well myself and many others were right in the sense that the Last Jedi is bad and it is underperforming at the box office.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2017/12/19/st ... ce-awakens

It is off 42%, as compared to The Force Awakens on it’s first Tuesday run.

Thus, it appears that the so called critics were bought and paid for, and that word of mouth is very poor. This things will not have legs.

Lol, there is even a movement to de-canonize episode 8 and start over! Ha ha won’t happen, but goes to show how Johnson’s directorship of this episode has fallen flat.

Episode 9 needs a major lift to overcome this hot mess. Mark my words, with Carrie Fisher gone, and the Luke and Han characters killed off, Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver can’t carry the upcoming episode 9.
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:54 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
we still don't know who her parents were.

We don't know, and never will because......they were nobodies. :smile:
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bmacleod
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:59 pm

texdravid wrote:
Well myself and many others were right in the sense that the Last Jedi is bad and it is underperforming at the box office.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2017/12/19/st ... ce-awakens

It is off 42%, as compared to The Force Awakens on it’s first Tuesday run.

Thus, it appears that the so called critics were bought and paid for, and that word of mouth is very poor. This things will not have legs.

Lol, there is even a movement to de-canonize episode 8 and start over! Ha ha won’t happen, but goes to show how Johnson’s directorship of this episode has fallen flat.

Episode 9 needs a major lift to overcome this hot mess. Mark my words, with Carrie Fisher gone, and the Luke and Han characters killed off, Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver can’t carry the upcoming episode 9.


How about Lando - Billy Dee Williams then? Can JJ convince him to appear in IX?
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:09 pm

I was calling on a long time customer yesterday morning and we ended up playing hooky and opting out for a drive thru chicken sandwich and The Last Jedi instead of lunch. (IMAX 3D)
Just don't let the boss know.

********

With the exception as previously mentioned, the Mary Poppins and the Casino just do not add up. Otherwise I thought it was quite good.
Maybe the Sunbeam Steam Iron space craft it the one scene was also a little under whelming.

********

texdravid wrote:
It is off 42%, as compared to The Force Awakens on it’s first Tuesday run.Thus, it appears that the so called critics were bought and paid for, and that word of mouth is very poor. This things will not have legs.


I think it has more to do with how work, school & Christmas schedules line up. The theater was only 50% full for a Wednesday noon showing. I expected more like 80-90%
There were some several buses outside when we left so I guess there were some groups planning to watch the 3:30 showing.

********

I will go see it again before it drops off the IMAX 3D screen.

Okie
 
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:55 pm

bmacleod wrote:
How about Lando - Billy Dee Williams then? Can JJ convince him to appear in IX?

That would actually get me excited about episode IX, because currently I'm feeling sort of "meh" (and I've never felt like that when it comes to Star Wars). They considered including him in TLJ, and I'm sure he'd be willing to come back if they wanted him in the finale.

http://jg-tc.com/entertainment/movies/r ... e4952.html

"Rian Johnson "briefly considered" featuring Lando Calrissian in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi'.

However, filmmaker Johnson recently admitted the character won't be in the latest film but said he did consider it.

Speaking to The Playlist, Johnson, 44, said: "Of course I'd love to see Lando. In terms of Lando, I briefly considered - would he work in the Benicio [del Toro] part, [DJ]. I don't think you would ever buy that Lando would just completely betray the characters like that and have that level of moral ambiguity. Because we love Lando and you'd come into it with that [expectation]. And also, DJ, the character that they met, for the purposes of Finn's (John Boyega) character, had to be a morally ambiguous character that you're not sure about, that you're guessing about, and we already know that we love the character of Lando so it just wouldn't have played in that part story wise. You have to write organically. Otherwise it leads to contrived places. Which is just to say it's all about the needs of the story and there's only so much room on the table for... favourite characters to be in the movie."

Although being ruled out to return, Williams, now 80, often appears at conventions and his manager Brad Kramer also revealed he was hoping to return to the popular sci-fi franchise."
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SaschaYHZ
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:08 am

My biggest gripe was when Admiral Holdo refused to tell Poe her plan. Instead she gets all "Shut up, you stupid pilot!"
 
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:03 pm

SaschaYHZ wrote:
My biggest gripe was when Admiral Holdo refused to tell Poe her plan. Instead she gets all "Shut up, you stupid pilot!"

Yeah... Still not sure about that. What, did she think someone was going to go jump on the comms and tell the First Order the plan? Or that someone would sabotage the plan? Eventually she had to tell someone something. It can't be that she just wouldn't tell Poe. Obviously other people didn't know the plan, as they went along with Poe's mutiny.
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tommy1808
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:44 pm

cjg225 wrote:
SaschaYHZ wrote:
My biggest gripe was when Admiral Holdo refused to tell Poe her plan. Instead she gets all "Shut up, you stupid pilot!"

Yeah... Still not sure about that. What, did she think someone was going to go jump on the comms and tell the First Order the plan? Or that someone would sabotage the plan? Eventually she had to tell someone something. It can't be that she just wouldn't tell Poe. Obviously other people didn't know the plan, as they went along with Poe's mutiny.


Did she have a plan, or did she just pretend she had to calm everybody?

best regards
Thomas
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:30 pm

bmacleod wrote:

How about Lando - Billy Dee Williams then? Can JJ convince him to appear in IX?


I was expecting to see him somewhere in the casino.
 
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:03 pm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... ovies/amp/

As stated previously, word of mouth is terrible. Looks like the drop off after the first few days is steep and real.

I really am hoping it falls short of expectations and forces Disney and that arrogant Kathleen Kennedy to focus next time for episode 9. Because they only have one more shot. Another dud and that means no episode 10.
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Did she have a plan, or did she just pretend she had to calm everybody?

best regards
Thomas

Perhaps not, in which case it's almost worse because if she doesn't have a plan, she needs to be discussing with people what they can do. Nothing is worse as a leader than saying, "I don't know," but if you don't know, you have to lean on your subordinates to figure something out.
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:52 pm

Watched it last night, decent film but a few complaints?

-Why introduce snoke and build up his reveal for all of 7 and part of 8 just to kill him off?
-The casino trip was pointless, that should of been cut completley.
-And building up Lukes return from
7 only for him to be bitter and have a pretty boring role, I was hoping for a big lightsaber duel with Ren.
-Not a single lightsaber duel between Rey and Ren or Ren and Luke. Disappointing.

Best scene was ramming snokes ship at lightspeed, the look of shock on Hux's face and just the effects of this were great.

Hope 9 can fill in all the plot holes, rey's parents, who snoke is, where's lando?
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:31 am

I saw the movie again tonight for the second time and I don't feel quite as badly about it now, but overall I'm still underwhelmed. It feels more like one of the Marvel movies rather than Star Wars. A major chunk of the movie consists of the First Order chasing the Resistance through space - seems a little dull. Force ghosts can now explode things with lightning? If so, why don't all of them just gang up on the First Order or Snoke? They go a little overboard with the humor (Hux/Poe opening scene) as well.

I'm not in the same camp of people who are crying over the fact that Luke is now disillusioned with the Jedi. The trailers lead me to believe that he had come to the realization that as long as the Jedi exist then the Sith/dark side would always exist as a way of bringing "balance" to the force. I found that potential storyline interesting, but Luke trying to kill his apprentice in his sleep is too extreme and totally out of character. After all, this is the same guy who went out on a limb to try and save Vader! I'm also disappointed with the lack of continuity at the end of the movie - he's clearly using a copy of Rey's lightsaber and not the green one from ROTJ.
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:04 am

Some of the other proposed explanations for fans' backlash are garbage. You'd have to be pretty pretentious to dislike the movie just because the lead characters are ethnic minorities/women. Then there's those who are saying that Star Wars fan are just too demanding - they get upset that TFA was too similar to ANH but now they don't like that TLJ is "different". I never had any major complaints about any of the previous films - even the prequels are watchable!

Having said all that, my favorite scene of the movie was Luke aboard the Millennium Falcon!
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:26 am

You know what could have made this movie great?

When they released the distress signal to their allies in the outer regions, instead of having nobody respond someone responds back - and it turns out to be the Starship Enterprise with Captain Kirk & Spock ready to banish the First Order to oblivion...

Come on JJ Abrams, make a Star Wars-Star Trek crossover happen!
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Sat Dec 23, 2017 3:33 pm

mke717spotter wrote:
It feels more like one of the Marvel movies rather than Star Wars.

BOOM.

Completely agree. Rogue One wasn't quite that bad in this respect, but TFA and TLJ have both felt much more like the Marvel movies that Star Wars movies, which is not a good thing, in my opinion. This is especially evident with the way they have gone about humor in the two new mainline movies.
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:15 pm

Image

Is it just me or did I see a T-70 in that picture? Luke’s X-wing is a T-65 and I don’t think he would have “upgraded” to a T-70. Did Rian and/or the effects guys goofed?

<<VFX art director Kevin Jenkins had this to say in the book The Art of Star Wars: The Last Jedi:
“Rey explores the island, trying to understand Luke’s self-imposed exile from the universe.
She comes across a cave, sunk at high tide within the base of the island.
Here she discovers Luke’s scuttled T-65 X-wing, rusted and rotting away in the water.
It was set alight before it sank. It shows Luke’s commitment to his exile, as he destroyed his only means of leaving the planet.”>>
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Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:25 pm

Image
Watching Holdo gave me a vague sense of déjà vu.

I kept having a niggling thought that I had seen similar images like that in the past.
And then..........ah, Eureka!
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Image
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texdravid
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:09 am

mke717spotter wrote:
Some of the other proposed explanations for fans' backlash are garbage. You'd have to be pretty pretentious to dislike the movie just because the lead characters are ethnic minorities/women. Then there's those who are saying that Star Wars fan are just too demanding - they get upset that TFA was too similar to ANH but now they don't like that TLJ is "different". I never had any major complaints about any of the previous films - even the prequels are watchable!

Having said all that, my favorite scene of the movie was Luke aboard the Millennium Falcon!


I totally agree.
I dislike Episode 8 not because of too many women or putting political points such as animal rights or evil corporations that sell arms to all sides of a conflict. Those are small potatoes.

I think most real Star Wars fans are deeply disappointed in the disjointed plot and extreme poor character development and finally, the whole Luke being a cranky, selfish old man and Leia flying in space like a Mary Poppins.

At the end of the day, imagine the fan reaction IF the following happened:

The entire story of Luke’s post episode 6 and how he got to be on that island and what REALLY happened to Ben Solo.

Complete explanation of Snoke.

A detailed teaching/training of Rey.

An all out lightsaber and force war between Luke and Snoke and another titanic battle between Kylo and Rey, and finally a real battle between Phasma and Finn and a Poe Dameron space battle.

At the end, then maybe then, kill of Luke, Leia, or Admiral Ackbar. But make their demise mean something and THEN pass the torch to the new generation.

Good god, Kathleen Kennedy and R. Johnson! You blew it. Congratulations! Any two bit guy off the street like me could have come up with a better plot!

This is all about Rian Johnson trying to be too cute with the screenplay and his massive ego.
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EA CO AS
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:25 am

neutrino wrote:
Image

Is it just me or did I see a T-70 in that picture? Luke’s X-wing is a T-65 and I don’t think he would have “upgraded” to a T-70. Did Rian and/or the effects guys goofed?

<<VFX art director Kevin Jenkins had this to say in the book The Art of Star Wars: The Last Jedi:
“Rey explores the island, trying to understand Luke’s self-imposed exile from the universe.
She comes across a cave, sunk at high tide within the base of the island.
Here she discovers Luke’s scuttled T-65 X-wing, rusted and rotting away in the water.
It was set alight before it sank. It shows Luke’s commitment to his exile, as he destroyed his only means of leaving the planet.”>>


You're right, that's not a T-65 X-Wing; someone in the effects department lacks attention to detail.
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:05 am

I finally went to see it today - and I really liked it overall. There were definitely some weak points, though
As mentioned above the whole casino trip thing was a waste of time and should have been left on the cutting room floor
Laura Dern's character was pretty weak IMO and they didn't need someone with her star power for the role
I have mixed feelings about Snoke's demise. On the one hand, they take out the biggest baddie before the final episode. On the other hand, I didn't think much of his character to begin with.
Best line - when they fired all their heavy weapons at Luke, Hux turns to Kylo and says "you think we got him?"
When Luke re-appears and brushes off his shoulder, I knew he was a hologram but it was still a cool scene between he and Kylo
Neat touch at the end with Luke staring at the two suns before dying.
I also think Daisy Ridley was very good in this film. Liked Kylo A LOT better without the mask. In TFA, I couldn't help thinking of him as "Dark Helmet" from Spaceballs
 
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moo
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:56 am

My thoughts...

The lack of onscreen training for Rey didn't bother me - you don't need training to use the force, you need training to use the force as a Jedi, which is a significant difference. The entire film revolves around the fact that the concept of the Jedi and Sith are dead and outdated - the Jedi failed from a position of strength, they lost the entire galaxy because they were too rigid, too religious and too stuck in their ways to react to the new order that was coming over the hill.

This film is all about moving on from the fixed ways of the Jedi and Sith - to move on, you don't want Rey to be trained by a Jedi, you want her to find a better way. Sure, Luke says that he isn't the last Jedi, but that's more wishful thinking than anything.

Remember, no one trained the boy with the broom at the end - the force never died, the Jedi did.

The lack of development of Snoke is just ripe for a standalone film at some point - I will look forward to that, but I didn't see it as an issue here as I see Ren as a much more compelling antagonist. And do we really know that Snoke is dead? Sure, he's in half on the floor but that may not be his only body...

My main issue is that several of the characters are only fleshed out in companion works - Phasma seems like she should have had more screen time, she was set up to big a big named character and flopped in both films. But her character comes together when you read the companion stuff - which many people aren't interested in investing in.
 
texdravid
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:09 pm

ER757 wrote:
I finally went to see it today - and I really liked it overall. There were definitely some weak points, though
As mentioned above the whole casino trip thing was a waste of time and should have been left on the cutting room floor
Laura Dern's character was pretty weak IMO and they didn't need someone with her star power for the role
I have mixed feelings about Snoke's demise. On the one hand, they take out the biggest baddie before the final episode. On the other hand, I didn't think much of his character to begin with.
Best line - when they fired all their heavy weapons at Luke, Hux turns to Kylo and says "you think we got him?"
When Luke re-appears and brushes off his shoulder, I knew he was a hologram but it was still a cool scene between he and Kylo
Neat touch at the end with Luke staring at the two suns before dying.
I also think Daisy Ridley was very good in this film. Liked Kylo A LOT better without the mask. In TFA, I couldn't help thinking of him as "Dark Helmet" from Spaceballs


You gave more negative points than positive yet you liked it??

Cmon Luke deserved a much grander death. Like a death after knocking off Snoke or Kylo at the NEXT EPISODE 9 with Rey at his side as the Last Jedi and he revealed she was a Skywalker before he passed?
Then cue the end credits.

This episode 8 had nothing. Just a Leia Poppins in space, Luke playing hilarious grams and acting like a old jerk that uncle and no plot whatsoever.

For heavens sake Finn and that Asian girl got as much screen time.

Putrid mess. Thanks Disney and that wench Kathleen Kennedy.
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texdravid
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:14 pm

moo wrote:
My thoughts...

The lack of onscreen training for Rey didn't bother me - you don't need training to use the force, you need training to use the force as a Jedi, which is a significant difference. The entire film revolves around the fact that the concept of the Jedi and Sith are dead and outdated - the Jedi failed from a position of strength, they lost the entire galaxy because they were too rigid, too religious and too stuck in their ways to react to the new order that was coming over the hill.

This film is all about moving on from the fixed ways of the Jedi and Sith - to move on, you don't want Rey to be trained by a Jedi, you want her to find a better way. Sure, Luke says that he isn't the last Jedi, but that's more wishful thinking than anything.

Remember, no one trained the boy with the broom at the end - the force never died, the Jedi did.

The lack of development of Snoke is just ripe for a standalone film at some point - I will look forward to that, but I didn't see it as an issue here as I see Ren as a much more compelling antagonist. And do we really know that Snoke is dead? Sure, he's in half on the floor but that may not be his only body...

My main issue is that several of the characters are only fleshed out in companion works - Phasma seems like she should have had more screen time, she was set up to big a big named character and flopped in both films. But her character comes together when you read the companion stuff - which many people aren't interested in investing in.


Except that every Jedi since time immemorial according to internal canon needed extensive training and apprenticeship and then a grueling trial before they are even called a Jedi.

Furthermore, it was Disney that built up Snoke as some huge force sensitive evil and then turned him into a routine average punk.

Leia Poppins. Enough said.

Yeah this film moved on all right. From being a great series into a joke. No cliffhanger or story arcs for the next movie in series. Just a muppet idiot Kylo and a Mary Sue young heroine that’s just great because Kathleen Kennedy said so.
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flybaurlax
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:15 am

mke717spotter wrote:
Then there's those who are saying that Star Wars fan are just too demanding - they get upset that TFA was too similar to ANH but now they don't like that TLJ is "different".



Well, I think tthat TLJ was too much like Empire Strikes Back! I agree that some of the fans are too demanding, as I liked the movie overall. However, I did not feel like it was truly original. I suspect the next one will be too much like Return of the Jedi.
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cjg225
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Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:57 am

flybaurlax wrote:
Well, I think tthat TLJ was too much like Empire Strikes Back! I agree that some of the fans are too demanding, as I liked the movie overall. However, I did not feel like it was truly original. I suspect the next one will be too much like Return of the Jedi.

Eh, this was kind of BOTH Empire and Return mixed together.
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Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:07 am

texdravid wrote:
Except that every Jedi since time immemorial according to internal canon needed extensive training and apprenticeship and then a grueling trial before they are even called a Jedi.


You said it yourself - "before they are even called a Jedi".

By the by, but Skywalker never got an apprenticeship, and the amount of training he received is doubtful as well. He was significantly older than Anakin was when he was introduced to the Jedi, and there was a lot of debate by the Jedi as to whether to even allow Anakin to be trained due to his age.

The issue with the Star Wars series is that they concentrate way way way too much on "Jedi" and "Sith" being *it*. If you are good, you are a Jedi - you cant be anything else. If you are bad, you are a Sith, you cant be anything else. There aren't any other force-orientated religions out there, no rivals to the Jedi or Sith other than each other

But thats the nature of the childlike story - its black and white. Which was perfect for the 70s and 80s, but these days audiences want more complexity in their stories - shades of grey.

And I think thats where Disney are taking this - no more Jedi, no more Sith, but a good dose of conflicted characters who are no longer pigeon holed.

texdravid wrote:
Furthermore, it was Disney that built up Snoke as some huge force sensitive evil and then turned him into a routine average punk.


And yet we are commenting on all this while the rest of the story might yet be told.

texdravid wrote:
Yeah this film moved on all right. From being a great series into a joke. No cliffhanger or story arcs for the next movie in series. Just a muppet idiot Kylo and a Mary Sue young heroine that’s just great because Kathleen Kennedy said so.


Meh, this just shows that its pointless to involve you in any discussion.
 
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:51 am

moo wrote:
Meh, this just shows that its pointless to involve you in any discussion.

:checkmark: You just summed it up.
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:30 am

moo wrote:
The lack of development of Snoke is just ripe for a standalone film at some point - I will look forward to that, but I didn't see it as an issue here as I see Ren as a much more compelling antagonist. And do we really know that Snoke is dead? Sure, he's in half on the floor but that may not be his only body...
.


I'm thinking the standalone Rian Johnson trilogy could conceivably involve prequels fleshing out Snoke, in much the same way the original prequels fleshed out Palpatine. After all, we had precisely ZERO backstory on Palpatine, yet everyone just accepted that here was this guy who was stronger than Vader and ruled the galaxy, and we were ok with that.

We were so spoiled by the abundance of backstory setup in Episodes I, II, and III that by the time we get to Episode VII, and 30 plus years have passed since Episode VI, we're expecting backstory. We're expecting to get caught up to speed. And we were ok with that in Episode VII, figuring that by the time Episode VIII rolled around, we'd get it.

But we didn't. And I'm ok with that!

TPM, AOTC, and ROTS gave us the backstory for ANH, ESB, and ROTJ. I think the next trilogy could very well set us up for new stories with now-new characters like Poe Dameron, Captain Phasma, and even Snoke - but TFA and TLJ were about advancing the Skywalker saga, just like IV through VI were.

I'm calling TLJ as my third favorite of the franchise, after ESB and ROTS. Frankly, I'd love to see a "Vader the enforcer in his prime" movie set about 10 years after ROTS, but that's me.
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:40 am

moo wrote:
texdravid wrote:
Except that every Jedi since time immemorial according to internal canon needed extensive training and apprenticeship and then a grueling trial before they are even called a Jedi.


You said it yourself - "before they are even called a Jedi".

By the by, but Skywalker never got an apprenticeship, and the amount of training he received is doubtful as well. He was significantly older than Anakin was when he was introduced to the Jedi, and there was a lot of debate by the Jedi as to whether to even allow Anakin to be trained due to his age.

The issue with the Star Wars series is that they concentrate way way way too much on "Jedi" and "Sith" being *it*. If you are good, you are a Jedi - you cant be anything else. If you are bad, you are a Sith, you cant be anything else. There aren't any other force-orientated religions out there, no rivals to the Jedi or Sith other than each other

But thats the nature of the childlike story - its black and white. Which was perfect for the 70s and 80s, but these days audiences want more complexity in their stories - shades of grey.

And I think thats where Disney are taking this - no more Jedi, no more Sith, but a good dose of conflicted characters who are no longer pigeon holed.

texdravid wrote:
Furthermore, it was Disney that built up Snoke as some huge force sensitive evil and then turned him into a routine average punk.


And yet we are commenting on all this while the rest of the story might yet be told.

texdravid wrote:
Yeah this film moved on all right. From being a great series into a joke. No cliffhanger or story arcs for the next movie in series. Just a muppet idiot Kylo and a Mary Sue young heroine that’s just great because Kathleen Kennedy said so.


Meh, this just shows that its pointless to involve you in any discussion.



Your comments just show you have no appreciation or recollection of episode 5 or 6. Luke spends a great deal of time in 5 being trained and guided by Yoda. It wasn’t Training at the Jedi temple but it was well thought up and shown on screen and he interaction between the two was amazing. In this film, Luke is an old crank that has a bad attitude and never trains her in any way and spends his time with his own demons. But magically Rey, our wonder, just is naturally powerful, right? Sheesh.

Second, I have no problem with moving beyond the Sith-Jedi fights. I DO have a problem with a lame plot, poor character development and no way to really care about these characters. I do have a problem with side plots that mean nothing like the casino planet. Use that time maybe to form a plot, Kathleen Kennedy!

Third, it’s poor form to build up this great evil menace and then dispatch him immediately. It your was shown in episode 7 that Snoke engineered Kylo’s turn and he is an immense force user. Then use him in 8. This is one of 8’s weakest point and you just casually almost ignore it. If they bring back Snoke in 9 as a flashback or do a retro introduction, then that is a way to cover their rear ends for a mistake.

Finally, your grand conclusion is.... what you say?? Pointless to have my input. Er.... okay there slick. I guess your insight is oh so awesome. Please I have put forth reason and examples and you just don’t like them. THat is a mark of someone who just gave up your argument. Gee thanks.

I wanted to like this film. I went in with all intentions of loving it and watching it multiple times. But after an hour I knew his was an epic disaster and approximately 1/2 the public agrees with me. It’s scores re the lowest of ANY SW EPISODE, even lower than any of the prequels. Just look at rotten Tomatoes and IMDB. This movie is trash. The professional critics writing for websites and newspapers were bought and paid for.
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texdravid
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:43 am

neutrino wrote:
moo wrote:
Meh, this just shows that its pointless to involve you in any discussion.

:checkmark: You just summed it up.


Ok....then it shows how you are a hopeless apologist and me too about defending this film.
Why don’t you step up and show me your well thought out rebuttal?.

No? Ok I have my answer then.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
texdravid
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:48 am

EA CO AS wrote:
moo wrote:
The lack of development of Snoke is just ripe for a standalone film at some point - I will look forward to that, but I didn't see it as an issue here as I see Ren as a much more compelling antagonist. And do we really know that Snoke is dead? Sure, he's in half on the floor but that may not be his only body...
.


I'm thinking the standalone Rian Johnson trilogy could conceivably involve prequels fleshing out Snoke, in much the same way the original prequels fleshed out Palpatine. After all, we had precisely ZERO backstory on Palpatine, yet everyone just accepted that here was this guy who was stronger than Vader and ruled the galaxy, and we were ok with that.

We were so spoiled by the abundance of backstory setup in Episodes I, II, and III that by the time we get to Episode VII, and 30 plus years have passed since Episode VI, we're expecting backstory. We're expecting to get caught up to speed. And we were ok with that in Episode VII, figuring that by the time Episode VIII rolled around, we'd get it.

But we didn't. And I'm ok with that!

TPM, AOTC, and ROTS gave us the backstory for ANH, ESB, and ROTJ. I think the next trilogy could very well set us up for new stories with now-new characters like Poe Dameron, Captain Phasma, and even Snoke - but TFA and TLJ were about advancing the Skywalker saga, just like IV through VI were.

I'm calling TLJ as my third favorite of the franchise, after ESB and ROTS. Frankly, I'd love to see a "Vader the enforcer in his prime" movie set about 10 years after ROTS, but that's me.


Man, if episode 9 stinks like this one, one need not worry about episode 10 and any future characters.

I will just chalk this clunker to Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy’s hubris. I will watch 9. But 9:better be awesome with EVERYONE loving it, critics and fans. Or else the SW saga will be over as a great cultural force.
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WIederling
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:48 pm

texdravid wrote:
Rey at his side as the Last Jedi and he revealed she was a Skywalker before he passed?


Luke isn't a "true" skywalker either.

Anakin materialized from thin air. born by that subby female from episode 1.

2 kids: Leya, Luke. ( IF you want to show a family tree of any length it is the Amidala family if there is one.
( note: "Padme" ~= lotus flower , "Amidala" could be seen as related to the spiritual presentation of Bhudda: "Amitabha"
~vulgo : a(nother) God Child?)

Rey could well show similar derivation.


Anyone read Poul Anderson's "The Avatar" (1978) ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:55 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
I liked those links back in "history". I think someone on the team really liked BSG, the whole narrative reminds me of the fabulous episode "33".

The red guards around Snoke were afaics borrowed from the queens guard in Alice in Wonderland.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Eventually she had to tell someone something. It can't be that she just wouldn't tell Poe. Obviously other people didn't know the plan, as they went along with Poe's mutiny.

Did she have a plan, or did she just pretend she had to calm everybody?


decisive guy vs hemming girl. new story. girly time is over. rise of the fighter jocks, spawn of MAGA.

you saw the same in the last Bond movie.
fM going down with a kind of whimper( together with her cohort of data mining imbeciles.)
New mM is a "risen in the ( service ) ranks, dyed in the wool" kind of guy.


hmm, i think I botched the citing. whatevere.
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moo
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:22 pm

texdravid wrote:

Your comments just show you have no appreciation or recollection of episode 5 or 6. Luke spends a great deal of time in 5 being trained and guided by Yoda. It wasn’t Training at the Jedi temple but it was well thought up and shown on screen and he interaction between the two was amazing.


Hence my comment "the amount of training he received is doubtful as well". It is never said how much training he received on Dagobah with Yoda, but you can bet your ass that it never came close to proper Jedi training - it certainly didn't match an apprenticeship, which (according to the first films) lasts most of a young Jedi's formative years, which is why Anakin was almost rejected as he was too old to start.

A lot of canon material suggests that Luke only spent a few weeks with Yoda - and in the start, Yoda was reluctant to train him as well.

In this film, Luke is an old crank that has a bad attitude and never trains her in any way and spends his time with his own demons. But magically Rey, our wonder, just is naturally powerful, right? Sheesh.


Again, you seem to ignore the fact that the Force is not the Jedi or the Sith - they are three, distinct, separate things.

The Jedi train young force users so they join their religion and their way of life - the Sith either do the same, or they turn Jedi.

But you don't need to be a Jedi or a Sith to be a Force user - the Force is a naturally occurring thing, you can get better at it by using it, which can mean training but it can also mean practice. Anakin was using the Force considerably during Episode 1, and he was deemed to be very powerful indeed, so why shouldn't another character pop up that can do the same?

Kylo is the product of the Skywalker blood chain, which apparently only goes back two generations (Kylo -> Leia -> Anakin -> ... well, Anakin was immaculately conceived so ...).

Rey is the product of two unknowns - they could be serious force users, or they could be no bodies just as is said in TLJ. But in the end, she is no different to Anakin in Episode 1.

Also, Lukes situation isn't all that different to any other Jedi that has been featured as a main character in the films - Obi Wan ends up as an old crank in exile, Yoda ends up as an old crank in exile... kinda got a thing going there. Every Jedi in the film series to date ends up either dead, in exile or as a Sith.

texdravid wrote:
Second, I have no problem with moving beyond the Sith-Jedi fights. I DO have a problem with a lame plot, poor character development and no way to really care about these characters. I do have a problem with side plots that mean nothing like the casino planet. Use that time maybe to form a plot, Kathleen Kennedy!


Thats your opinion. Just don't forget that you are watching a movie meant for kids...

texdravid wrote:
Third, it’s poor form to build up this great evil menace and then dispatch him immediately. It your was shown in episode 7 that Snoke engineered Kylo’s turn and he is an immense force user. Then use him in 8. This is one of 8’s weakest point and you just casually almost ignore it. If they bring back Snoke in 9 as a flashback or do a retro introduction, then that is a way to cover their rear ends for a mistake.


Is it poor form? Says who?

I "casually ignore it" because I never got fixated on Snoke.

texdravid wrote:
Finally, your grand conclusion is.... what you say?? Pointless to have my input. Er.... okay there slick. I guess your insight is oh so awesome. Please I have put forth reason and examples and you just don’t like them. THat is a mark of someone who just gave up your argument. Gee thanks.


Not really, I just don't want to discuss something with someone who obviously simply digs their arguments up off of reviews online and jumps on the bandwagon.

There is a lot wrong with this movie - pacing, plot holes etc, but people like you are fixating on stupid things like "they took away my Snoke!" and "I don't like Rey, but I can't really say why as that would paint me as a misogynistic git so I will simply mumble mumble mumble Mary Sue".

How about stuff like this:

1. The speeder battle on Crait - meant nothing at all, Poe sent a load of people out to die and they did nothing to affect the outcome at all

2. Rose saves Fin at the expense of the Rebel base - yup, she says something about love, but in the end she doomed the base and forced the rebels to hastily run for it

3. Poes constant "You need to tell me everything!" attitude, and the fact that we are set up to be in his corner. He's a fighter pilot, who sometimes carries out special missions. He doesn't need to be told everything the rebels know or are intending to do. And yet he basis his entire life around it.

4. The whole Rebel fleet chase thing - oh wow, the Rebels are being chase because they only have one more jumps worth of fuel left, but they magically manage to keep ahead of the Imperial fleet because "they are lighter and thus faster". A Star Destroyer (which the First Order Destroyers are better than) had no problems keeping up with the Rebel cruiser in Episode 4, before boarding and taking it. Heres a few things wrong with that whole plot line:

a. Its quickly established that the tracking mechanism must be on Snokes ship, so instead of sending some of his people on a side mission, why didnt Poe suggest that the ships all jump in different directions - the lead ship can only follow one of them...

b. Why don't the First Order forces jump a bunch of Star Destroyers 30 seconds down the road and cut the Rebel fleet off?

c. When the Rebels escape to Crait, the First Order forces stage a landing with a cool "battering ram cannon". Why don't they simply sit in orbit and bomb the planet for a few weeks? Its well established in canon that TIE bombers can do that. Also, a dozen AT-M6s and a few AT-ATs is all they can muster from half a ship 40km long, when we see more than that in one hangar bay alone?

5. This is a lingering issue across both the films so far - Fin is beat up about his buddy being killed at the start of TFA, but almost *immediately* goes into "kill all Storm Troopers on sight" mode without a single thought about any one of them being in the same position as him.

Come to think of it, throughout all the films we see very little evidence that the Empire or the First Order is actually all that bad - they take action against their enemies, for sure, but we see very little evidence of the oppression or brutality that the Rebels are fighting against. Under the Empire, many words seem to be prospering, and most people are left alone - indeed, we see several examples where the Empire makes deals and keeps them.
 
texdravid
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:29 am

Thanks for your disjointed reply. Congrats you are disjointed as Rian Johnson.

I write my own responses thank you. Don’t need to go to any site to state my opinion.

People like you are just making excuses for a poor film. If you have to make so many verbal gymnastics moves to like it, then maybe it’s not that good.

I didn’t need any plot device, plot service, character death or life, or any needs whatsoever as a Star Wars fan and general movie goer other than a well thought out plot and character development.

This movie has neither and you more of an apologist. Is Kathleen your mom or aunt? Ha ha.
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moo
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:53 am

texdravid wrote:
Thanks for your disjointed reply. Congrats you are disjointed as Rian Johnson.

I write my own responses thank you. Don’t need to go to any site to state my opinion.

People like you are just making excuses for a poor film. If you have to make so many verbal gymnastics moves to like it, then maybe it’s not that good.

I didn’t need any plot device, plot service, character death or life, or any needs whatsoever as a Star Wars fan and general movie goer other than a well thought out plot and character development.

This movie has neither and you more of an apologist. Is Kathleen your mom or aunt? Ha ha.


Ooh, insults. Ouch, I'm sooooo hurt.

But thanks for proving my point.
 
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:17 am

texdravid wrote:
Thanks for your disjointed reply. Congrats you are disjointed as Rian Johnson.
................................
This movie has neither and you more of an apologist. Is Kathleen your mom or aunt? Ha ha.


Thank you for that disjointed incohesive screed. Very much appreciated. :-)

What joins (Aliens timeline) Prometheus and these recent StWars movies?

imu both now show universes of principally unqualifieds acting without thought and planning.
puppets on strings with no strings attached.
( in Prometheus the person that believes in the "biggest" god survives :: Shaw. )

Building an epiphany for the spectator? -> religious propaganda?
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VSMUT
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:20 pm

texdravid wrote:
It’s scores re the lowest of ANY SW EPISODE, even lower than any of the prequels. Just look at rotten Tomatoes and IMDB. This movie is trash. The professional critics writing for websites and newspapers were bought and paid for.


Not so fast. There is plenty of evidence that the user scores have been manipulated. Both disgruntled Star Wars fans, fans of competing franchises (Star Trek, Marvel and DC) and alt-right'ers have publicly claimed to have used bots to lower the scores. Polls undertaken at cinemas questioning actual audiences give the film a solid A.

https://qz.com/1160551/the-rotten-tomat ... be-rigged/
https://www.cinemascore.com/
http://variety.com/2017/digital/news/st ... 202647473/

And I am very sorry, but I severely doubt that Disney pays off film critics in tiny rural newspapers all over the world. Those reviews generally weren't negative either.

texdravid wrote:
as a Star Wars fan


Can one claim to be a fan if one doesn't like it? :duck:
 
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mke717spotter
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:08 am

VSMUT wrote:
Not so fast. There is plenty of evidence that the user scores have been manipulated. Both disgruntled Star Wars fans, fans of competing franchises (Star Trek, Marvel and DC) and alt-right'ers have publicly claimed to have used bots to lower the scores. Polls undertaken at cinemas questioning actual audiences give the film a solid A.

https://qz.com/1160551/the-rotten-tomat ... be-rigged/
https://www.cinemascore.com/
http://variety.com/2017/digital/news/st ... 202647473/

Rotten Tomatoes is pushing back on this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/20 ... a747b44231

"Benson, who is the Vice President of Communications at Fandango, the parent company of Rotten Tomatoes, told me that Fandango and Rotten Tomatoes are fully confident in the ratings and scores for the Star Wars picture. She assured me that Rotten Tomatoes has gone to great lengths to verify their ratings' accuracy and authenticity."
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cjg225
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:31 am

VSMUT wrote:
Not so fast. There is plenty of evidence that the user scores have been manipulated. Both disgruntled Star Wars fans, fans of competing franchises (Star Trek, Marvel and DC) and alt-right'ers have publicly claimed to have used bots to lower the scores. Polls undertaken at cinemas questioning actual audiences give the film a solid A.

https://qz.com/1160551/the-rotten-tomat ... be-rigged/
https://www.cinemascore.com/
http://variety.com/2017/digital/news/st ... 202647473/

And I am very sorry, but I severely doubt that Disney pays off film critics in tiny rural newspapers all over the world. Those reviews generally weren't negative either.

Those exit polls are the ones most likely to be all rosy.

Perusing even SW forums, this appears to not be received as well as TFA was by a large margin.
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VSMUT
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:26 am

mke717spotter wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Not so fast. There is plenty of evidence that the user scores have been manipulated. Both disgruntled Star Wars fans, fans of competing franchises (Star Trek, Marvel and DC) and alt-right'ers have publicly claimed to have used bots to lower the scores. Polls undertaken at cinemas questioning actual audiences give the film a solid A.

https://qz.com/1160551/the-rotten-tomat ... be-rigged/
https://www.cinemascore.com/
http://variety.com/2017/digital/news/st ... 202647473/

Rotten Tomatoes is pushing back on this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcain/20 ... a747b44231

"Benson, who is the Vice President of Communications at Fandango, the parent company of Rotten Tomatoes, told me that Fandango and Rotten Tomatoes are fully confident in the ratings and scores for the Star Wars picture. She assured me that Rotten Tomatoes has gone to great lengths to verify their ratings' accuracy and authenticity."


Of course they say that, what else would you expect of them? They rely on being a credible review site. Admitting that they have a problem would ruin their reputation not just regarding this film, but for every other film ever to feature on their website.

The user reviews can't be verified. Claims have been made that bots are being used to lower that score. The only verifiable reviews from real people give it much better reviews. Something is clearly off.

And thats before we even get to the hypocrisy of some negative comments. "Flying through space like Mary Poppins". It's a fantasy-science fiction film for kids about space wizards with space magic and sounds in space. Go figure. A muppet lifting a starfighter out of a swamp in episode 5 using magic is good, a female space magician doing to same to reenter a spaceship is bad... :lol: Had they placed Luke Skywalker in the same position, then our friend Texdravid would have considered it the most awesome scene in the franchise by far... :duck:
 
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ER757
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:04 pm

cjg225 wrote:

Perusing even SW forums, this appears to not be received as well as TFA was by a large margin.


I am really surprised by that - IMO TFA should have been titled "A New Hope 2.0." As a stand-alone movie it was pretty good but in the context of the Star Wars franchise, we'd seen that story before more or less. One of the reasons I liked this new one is that the story was more original and less derivative. Yes, there were some similarities to ESB (the rebels on the run and getting their butts kicked by the powers that be) but it stops there. My personal ranking of this film in the series would be 3rd behind the first two back in the 70's. I know lots of people would disagree with that, and that's fine.
 
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cjg225
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Re: The Last Jedi. Spoiler thread. BEWARE!

Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:51 pm

ER757 wrote:
I am really surprised by that - IMO TFA should have been titled "A New Hope 2.0." As a stand-alone movie it was pretty good but in the context of the Star Wars franchise, we'd seen that story before more or less. One of the reasons I liked this new one is that the story was more original and less derivative. Yes, there were some similarities to ESB (the rebels on the run and getting their butts kicked by the powers that be) but it stops there. My personal ranking of this film in the series would be 3rd behind the first two back in the 70's. I know lots of people would disagree with that, and that's fine.

I think the nostalgia play worked for a lot of people with TFA, but not so much for TLJ, which was more like Empire and Return than you're giving it credit for. But I think for TLJ is was more about unraveling so much of what TFA started; SW fans are very keen on the woven story over various media entries since that's one of the foundational ideas of the SW universe.
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