salttee
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Re: Putin's revenge part II

Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:58 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Well, can’t really show exactly 70%, but there certainly are bright examples. Beginning with Russia in 2011 (Mar 2012 election), where Joe Biden said to Putin that he shouldn’t run, Hillary Clinton met all the Russian opposition. Putin ran, won and started to order up legislature (similar to FARA).
I don't think you know what "interfering with an election" is to the rest of us. In 2016, Putin's intelligence apparatus broke into various private E-mail servers and selectively made the contents available to the American public, while at the same time he had people who were actively plying social media sites in the US pretending to be US citizens in most cases, going directly to the American voter in a surreptitious manner. What you are talking about with Biden and Clinton are US politicians lobbying their equals in another government, which is above board and commonly known as "diplomacy" and is done in both directions everywhere.
anrec80 wrote:
Screams “Assad must go” (even though it’s not their business), Ghaddafi with “loss of legitimacy”. Last but not least Ukraine in Feb 2014, with Biden’s call to Yanukovich “it’s over”. These are only the examples we know of. There are more I am sure.
Again all this is above board diplomacy. Keep in mind that there was a large faction in the US that wanted to directly interfere with Assad's regime, whether that was wise or not, or self serving or altruistic, is another subject; but in the end the US administration opted not to get directly involved.

In the case of Ghaddafi, we can almost all see from hindsight that the (European driven) intervention was unwise, but IMO Pan Am flight 103 should be given more weight than it has when one looks at why some of the decisions regarding Libya were made. It is easy to underestimate how much ill will was generated towards Gaddafi by his intentional bringing down of that that passenger plane. There were people in high office who were still seething over the Idea that Ghaddafi was being forgiven for that callous act when the "Arab spring" broke out.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin's revenge part II

Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:14 pm

salttee wrote:
In 2016, Putin's intelligence apparatus broke into various private E-mail servers and selectively made the contents available to the American public, while at the same time he had people who were actively plying social media sites in the US pretending to be US citizens in most cases, going directly to the American voter in a surreptitious manner.


Not just US elections, also UK referendum Brexit, Dutch referendum on Ukraine, Catalunia's referendum, German elections and probably French elections and "of course" within Ukraine.

Image

Internet Research Agency in Sint Petersburg or better known as Troll factory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin's revenge part II

Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:00 am

Dutchy wrote:
Sanctions were imposed by Putin, not the EU, Russia isn't that important economy. So where do you gt that Airbus and Siemens will lose half their market share, half of what? Half of the market in Russia, well small market anyway. And what will Russia's airlines get if they don't get an Airbus? A Boeing? But how do you rhyme that with your statement?


No, I mean significant share of market globally. in Russia - EU’s share on sanctioned products is sub-zero. Not complete zero due to some inevitable contraband, but that’s negligible. What’s more important - American and EU farmers are losing global markets to Russia - they are now a major exporter of food. And that’s sensitive for EU, all of its countries - but more for Eastern ones, who rely on agricultural exports outside of EU heavily.

What will Russian airlines get? An interesting question. MS-21 is being certified, and virtually every Russian mainline airline has some on order. Engines may be Western, may be Russian PD-14. A320/B737 market segment in Russia is almost lost for Boeing and Airbus; there will be much fewer of those. Long range 77W-like - they are also preparing their development with China, and Russian engine D-35 (similar to GE-90). They certainly have learned how to make planes efficient from economics standpoint, and both Airbus and Boeing are yet to catch up with MS-21. And of course, those will also be available for exports to many places. Both A and B will feel it. You’ll even see European airlines taking on some (once this sanctions craze goes down; it will inevitably).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin's revenge part II

Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:15 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Sanctions were imposed by Putin, not the EU, Russia isn't that important economy. So where do you gt that Airbus and Siemens will lose half their market share, half of what? Half of the market in Russia, well small market anyway. And what will Russia's airlines get if they don't get an Airbus? A Boeing? But how do you rhyme that with your statement?


No, I mean significant share of market globally. in Russia - EU’s share on sanctioned products is sub-zero. Not complete zero due to some inevitable contraband, but that’s negligible. What’s more important - American and EU farmers are losing global markets to Russia - they are now a major exporter of food. And that’s sensitive for EU, all of its countries - but more for Eastern ones, who rely on agricultural exports outside of EU heavily.

What will Russian airlines get? An interesting question. MS-21 is being certified, and virtually every Russian mainline airline has some on order. Engines may be Western, may be Russian PD-14. A320/B737 market segment in Russia is almost lost for Boeing and Airbus; there will be much fewer of those. Long range 77W-like - they are also preparing their development with China, and Russian engine D-35 (similar to GE-90). They certainly have learned how to make planes efficient from economics standpoint, and both Airbus and Boeing are yet to catch up with MS-21. And of course, those will also be available for exports to many places. Both A and B will feel it. You’ll even see European airlines taking on some (once this sanctions craze goes down; it will inevitably).



provide statistics please and not just hollow statements.

Irkut MC-21: almost all Russian orders, forced up on by the Kremlin? And for Airbus and Boeing losing to such a superior product, why aren't airlines buying them en mass? What I am missing here? 200 orders since 2010, Airbus got dubble that from a single order :rotfl:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin's revenge part II

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
provide statistics please and not just hollow statements.

Irkut MC-21: almost all Russian orders, forced up on by the Kremlin? And for Airbus and Boeing losing to such a superior product, why aren't airlines buying them en mass? What I am missing here? 200 orders since 2010, Airbus got dubble that from a single order :rotfl:


You can roll for the time being, it’s OK. In 1970s, Toyota in the USA market was receiving exactly the same reaction. Guess what? In 2008, when it grew larger than GM, it stopped being funny. Became very unfunny even. Same here - seems funny today, while Irkut is a brand new airframer (you can call them re-emerging, but still). But - they have orders, and have what it takes to establish themselves. And - trust me, it’s not easy for Russian state to force something onto Aeroflot that Aeroflot doesn’t like. SU is one of Europe’s most efficiently run airlines, after all. Given that SU is taking at least 50 of them, they certainly like this product.

And if you read history of Airbus - what did it take them to establish themselves? During their A300 time - how many years did they go without a single order? And, I assure you, during those years Boeing and McDonnell Douglas fans were also thinking the same as you. And - stopped thinking that only in 80s or 90s, once Airbus launched A330 and A320 programs (A300 and A310 did have success, but it’s hard to characterize their market share as domination). So just wait and see.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin's revenge part II

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:30 am

Well if you talk about "trust me" and "I assure you" then you have lost, you have lost any credibility the way you present yourself here. All talk, no fact.

- "SU is one of Europe’s most efficiently run airlines, after all" proof it, by which standard?
- ", Toyota in the USA market was receiving exactly the same reaction." please provide proof that this company can establish the same thing as Toyota did.
- " and have what it takes to establish themselves" why?
- "’s not easy for Russian state to force something onto Aeroflot that Aeroflot doesn’t like" in order to proof this statement, the Russian state did force smething onto Aeroflot, right?
- "Given that SU is taking at least 50 of them, they certainly like this product." Given that you first need to proof the first statement before the second statement can be true, so "certainly" has no place in this, yet.

And your fundamental believe seems to be that I would like this a/c to fail and there your assumption is wrong. I hope a third player will break up the duopoly, but that will only happen with a world class product with a world class maintenence support and reliability. So good luck to them, but I think it will not happen with this.

"You can roll for the time being, it’s OK." oh thank you! So good of you to grease me with your permission for me to something :rotfl:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Putin's revenge part II

Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:17 am

Dutchy wrote:
- "SU is one of Europe’s most efficiently run airlines, after all" proof it, by which standard?


Speaking of SU - here's the example.
http://brandfinance.com/press-releases/ ... ne-brands/

Dutchy wrote:
- ", Toyota in the USA market was receiving exactly the same reaction." please provide proof that this company can establish the same thing as Toyota did.
- " and have what it takes to establish themselves" why?

Who called first Toyotas in the USA in 70s "jap crap"? Nobody in this world can "prove that they can". After all, USSR/Russia does have extensive traditions in aircraft building and did establish industry that provided transportation for the huge countries. They did it back then - why can't they now once they know they want and need it? And establishing an airframer and a car manufacturer - these are only somewhat similar things.

Dutchy wrote:
- "’s not easy for Russian state to force something onto Aeroflot that Aeroflot doesn’t like" in order to proof this statement, the Russian state did force smething onto Aeroflot, right?

Well - officials tried to force Tu-204s onto them, which were way too much of a plane for SU. Instead, they eventually lobbied 737s and 767s in 90s and A320/A330 later on. Without huge import duties that existed back then in the country.

Dutchy wrote:
- "Given that SU is taking at least 50 of them, they certainly like this product." Given that you first need to proof the first statement before the second statement can be true, so "certainly" has no place in this, yet.


Proof is not too far.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irkut_MC-21#Orders

Dutchy wrote:
And your fundamental believe seems to be that I would like this a/c to fail and there your assumption is wrong. I hope a third player will break up the duopoly, but that will only happen with a world class product with a world class maintenence support and reliability. So good luck to them, but I think it will not happen with this.

First - I don't think of you anyhow, or make assumptions of your thoughts. Should I ask for a proof of that? Then - I share the same belief with you on this one. Recent Russian developments showed that they can design very economically efficient and reliable aircraft. That, however, is when this aircraft is new. A huge step forward from Tu-204, though they are yet to demonstrate that they can support fleets of a few hundreds of aging planes worldwide up in the air at par with Boeing 737 or A-320. Superjet isn't quite there on this one.

"You can roll for the time being, it’s OK." oh thank you! So good of you to grease me with your permission for me to something :rotfl:
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Putin's revenge part II

Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:59 am

I have decided not to react to these bogus Russia threads anymore, no point in rebottling all these non-sense coming from the Putin groupies/trolls here. It just drains energy and accomplishes nothing.

Have fun guys and have a good 2018!
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
325i
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:01 am

Re: Putin's revenge part II

Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:37 pm

Hi Folks, have not been so entertained in a long while in reading this thread!
For those polically inclined in alternative opinions might I suggest some reading matter for 2018 (if not already done so)there are two books, 1 ,Insane Clown President, the other The New Tsar.
The jury rests as to ones interpretation!
Cheers 325 I
 
seb146
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Re: Putin's revenge part II

Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:47 am

BawliBooch wrote:
seb146 wrote:
And there is still zero proof that the United States did the exact same thing with all the other countries. We have backed deadly leaders and groups through military and financial backing like Qadaffi and Hussein and Noriega and Taliban. But, election hacking? Where is the proof?


Hmm. isnt backing military coups to bring about regime change in countries also interference? And both America & Soviet Union have made/unmade political leaders in other countries. Our neighbor Pakistan for example: its amazing how often West Point/Leavenworth educated officers from the Pakistan Army not only succeeded in overthrowing democratically elected leaders deemed too inconvenient to the US, but consolidating their power post the coup. Iskander Mirza talking too much socialism? Get Ayub Khan to stage a coup (1958). Bhutto getting too cosy with the Soviets and building a nuclear bomb? Get US trained boy Zia to overthrow and execute him(1977). The world is still paying for Zia's elevation as Pakistan President because it was in his regime that terrorism became an instrument of state policy. Nawaz Sharif acting too big for his boots? Get our boy Musharraf to bring him down! Pakistan is but one example. There are a dozen others - Saddam was an American buddy for 3 decades till he moved against Kuwait. Gadaffi was an American friend until he decided to trade in Gold/Euro's instead of dollars. And who bought Gen.Batista to power again?

Hacking elections is a relatively modern technique and a sophisticated one. Must hand it to the Russians to pulling off this one.


We have already agreed that the United States has installed and/or supported dictators. That is not what Russia has done with the United States. Yet. TRump is acting like a third world dictator, demanding allegiance and calling the press who report negative things about him fake and constant golfing... I mean "work." And tRump and his tRumpettes are calling for the FBI to stop investigating Russia.

Russia has proven that some of the American people can be fooled all of the time.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
salttee
Topic Author
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Re: Putin's revenge part II

Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:59 am

Dutchy wrote:
I have decided not to react to these bogus Russia threads anymore
This is not a "bogus Russian thread", the OP introduced part II of Frontline's Putin's Revenge, which had never been discussed in this forum prior to this thread - in spite of what you think:
Dutchy wrote:
Making yourself bait for Russian trolls was your choice.

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