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DIRECTFLT
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NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:49 am

New York City subway construction 'is the most expensive in the world' thanks to bloated staffing, inflated wages of up to $1,000 a day, and favoritism to unions and building firms that pay millions to state politicians.

The 3.5-mile East Side Access project is estimated to cost $12 Billion - or $3.5 Billion per mile.

A lengthy expose by The New York Times reveals why New Yorkers are forced to foot the highest costs for the maintenance and expansion of their transit system than those in other world class cities.

The report found that the agency in charge of the subways, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, wastes massive sums of money by employing too many people to do work that can be performed in the same amount of time by half the number of personnel.

In New York, 'underground construction employs approximately four times the number of personnel as in similar jobs in Asia, Australia, or Europe,' according to an internal report by Arup, a consulting firm that did work for the MTA as well as other agencies worldwide.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... world.html

And none of the rest of the US taxpayers outside NY State are somehow paying for this "sweet" Union overstaffing and overcharging by any other standards in the world??? Yeah, sure... but I don't believe it... NYC being the financial skullduggery Capital of the World.
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cjg225
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:56 pm

Every day I remain surprised at how we function as a country, given stuff like this.

This reminds me of our general performance as a country in terms of seaport productivity. We have the highest-paid longshoremen workforce in the world... but a mediocre safety record and abominable productivity levels. Other 1st world (and even some below that) countries absolutely wax us in that respect.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
NIKV69
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:41 pm

This is unions people. You wanted them, you attack the companies when they push back so now this is what you get. You also forgot the work takes 4 times as long as it should too.
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:58 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
This is unions people. You wanted them, you attack the companies when they push back so now this is what you get. You also forgot the work takes 4 times as long as it should too.


Govt. waste like this is a perverted welfare entitlement program for the Middle Class.

Who isn't "in" on the "take"??
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af773atmsp
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:16 pm

Not only the inflated construction and labor costs, but also the long time it takes for infrastructure projects to go from drawing board to reality in the U.S. is pathetic. Two local examples are the new Stillwater Bridge between Minnesota and Wisconsin crossing the St. Croix River which has been talked about for decades, and the Southwest Light Rail between Minneapolis and the western suburbs which has been in serious planning since the late 2000s but the first concepts were drawn up in the 1980s. It won't be open until 2023, and that's only if construction starts in 2018 which I'm not holding my breath on.
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anrec80
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:45 pm

Yeah, and on adjacent threads some people here criticize corruption in Eastern Europe. In different parts of Moscow, they open Metro branches similar to this Second Ave Subway every quarter or so. This subway section is nice and was much needed though. I live right above one of the stations.
 
anrec80
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:47 pm

af773atmsp wrote:
Not only the inflated construction and labor costs, but also the long time it takes for infrastructure projects to go from drawing board to reality in the U.S. is pathetic. Two local examples are the new Stillwater Bridge between Minnesota and Wisconsin crossing the St. Croix River which has been talked about for decades, and the Southwest Light Rail between Minneapolis and the western suburbs which has been in serious planning since the late 2000s but the first concepts were drawn up in the 1980s. It won't be open until 2023, and that's only if construction starts in 2018 which I'm not holding my breath on.

First in NYC they started talking and planning this Second Ave Subway in 1930s. That makes it what - 80 years all in?
 
Airstud
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:51 am

OP wasn't talking about the Second Avenue Subway.
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salttee
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:08 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Govt. waste like this is a perverted welfare entitlement program for the Middle Class.


Well now we have Trump - he'll put all those middle class lowlifes in their place.
About time, dontcha think DF?
 
LittleFokker
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:16 am

NIKV69 wrote:
This is unions people. You wanted them, you attack the companies when they push back so now this is what you get. You also forgot the work takes 4 times as long as it should too.


Yeah, Fiefdom would be so much better - worked well in the past for the Lords but not as much for the Serfs.

The GOP's wet dream is to move the USA to a fiefdom. All their policy positions would ultimately lead to that goal if fully enacted.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
apodino
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:45 am

I was watching a documentary called the rise and fall of Penn Station. Back in the days when the original Penn Station (Not this underground maze we have now) was first built, it was all done with private money as the president of the Pennsylvania Railroad (Which at the time was the largest corporation in the US believe it or not) had a huge vision to bring his railroad across the Hudson into Manhattan. When folks doubted him, he put his money where is mouth was and got it done. If the rail lines in NYC had been the public state owned commuter lines they are now, I am not sure that this project would have ever been done.

I read that same New York times article the OP posted. It is pretty sad what it takes to get things done anymore. One of the biggest issues is because most of these systems are owned by the public sector, inevitably politicians are the ones that have to get things done. And this creates a lot of unneccesary red tape (Something to his credit Trump has tried to address) to the government agencies, and projects that should have been done a long time ago still are tied up in burecratic mess. Here is just a few of the ones I can think of.

1. In Boston, there are four key things I think should have been done by now, and another one that I think could be done. 1 is the Blue Line extension on both ends, Lynn on one end, and to the Red LIne at Charles on the other end. Second is the Green Line Extension, which should have been well underway by now. Lechmere station should have already been replaced the last time the Green line was shut down north of North Station. Third would be the North-South Rail Link, which should have been finished with the Big Dig. And lastly would be the replacement service for the old elevated Orange Line on Washington Street. Dudley Square in Boston is the very heart of the Black Community in Boston, and for their service to be taken away and imo not sufficently replaced is inexcusable.

2. A new San Diego airport. This has been beat to death in the main aviation forum.

3. An extension of the Las Vegas monorail into the airport on one end and to downtown on the other end.

4. A new C and D terminal at IAD. Again, beat to death in the main forum.

5. Moynahan Penn Station. The Farley building should have been renovated by now, instead Penn Station is still a convuluted mess.

6. I know this isnt the US, but the third LHR runway has to be here too right?

As I said just a few. And while we as taxpayers give millions of dollars to billionaires to pay for lavish new sports stadiums (Why politicians can be blackmailed by wealthy sports owners still eludes me) we neglect money for some of these other projects. And these dont get managed right because politicians only think short term, which is to the next election and never on what happens in the long run. I could write a book on the subject. But government by necessity runs these projects, and that leads to the problems mentioned in this article. And even if they do get stuff built, it doesnt always work properly. BER still isnt open, and the big dig had some issues with collapsing tunnels.

I dont know what the answer is long run. I wish it didnt have to be political, but it may have to be.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:58 am

NIKV69 wrote:
This is unions people. You wanted them, you attack the companies when they push back so now this is what you get. You also forgot the work takes 4 times as long as it should too.


I don't think the union per se is a problem. The big problem is the greed on both sides as they vie to get the upper hand over the other. It's that simple.

In a perfect world, union reps & the company work together to find a solution that is mutually beneficial to each other. But thanks to greed, the company is only interested in the bottom line while the union is only interested in the welfare of its staff.

If we can make the perfect world a reality, things would definitely be much better.
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salttee
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:37 am

apodino wrote:
I was watching a documentary called the rise and fall of Penn Station. Back in the days when the original Penn Station (Not this underground maze we have now) was first built, it was all done with private money as the president of the Pennsylvania Railroad (Which at the time was the largest corporation in the US believe it or not) had a huge vision to bring his railroad across the Hudson into Manhattan. When folks doubted him, he put his money where is mouth was and got it done. If the rail lines in NYC had been the public state owned commuter lines they are now, I am not sure that this project would have ever been done.

I read that same New York times article the OP posted. It is pretty sad what it takes to get things done anymore. One of the biggest issues is because most of these systems are owned by the public sector, inevitably politicians are the ones that have to get things done. And this creates a lot of unneccesary red tape (Something to his credit Trump has tried to address) to the government agencies, and projects that should have been done a long time ago still are tied up in burecratic mess. Here is just a few of the ones I can think of.

1. In Boston, there are four key things I think should have been done by now, and another one that I think could be done. 1 is the Blue Line extension on both ends, Lynn on one end, and to the Red LIne at Charles on the other end. Second is the Green Line Extension, which should have been well underway by now. Lechmere station should have already been replaced the last time the Green line was shut down north of North Station. Third would be the North-South Rail Link, which should have been finished with the Big Dig. And lastly would be the replacement service for the old elevated Orange Line on Washington Street. Dudley Square in Boston is the very heart of the Black Community in Boston, and for their service to be taken away and imo not sufficently replaced is inexcusable.

2. A new San Diego airport. This has been beat to death in the main aviation forum.

3. An extension of the Las Vegas monorail into the airport on one end and to downtown on the other end.

4. A new C and D terminal at IAD. Again, beat to death in the main forum.

5. Moynahan Penn Station. The Farley building should have been renovated by now, instead Penn Station is still a convuluted mess.

6. I know this isnt the US, but the third LHR runway has to be here too right?

As I said just a few. And while we as taxpayers give millions of dollars to billionaires to pay for lavish new sports stadiums (Why politicians can be blackmailed by wealthy sports owners still eludes me) we neglect money for some of these other projects. And these dont get managed right because politicians only think short term, which is to the next election and never on what happens in the long run. I could write a book on the subject. But government by necessity runs these projects, and that leads to the problems mentioned in this article. And even if they do get stuff built, it doesnt always work properly. BER still isnt open, and the big dig had some issues with collapsing tunnels.

I dont know what the answer is long run. I wish it didnt have to be political, but it may have to be.

That is shallow thinking at its grandest.
So you pine for the late 19th century when steelworkers worked 12 hour days six and a half days a week and when they were splattered with molten metal and died of their burns (which was not at all uncommon in the mills back then) their wives and children were tossed out of the company housing with the last paycheck after the company store took out the balance due: when women also worked 12 hour days in textile mills for subsistence wages, read up on the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire it will give you a slim introduction of how the common folk lived back then. You long for the days of JP Morgan and JD Rockefeller. Just lovely! I just wish there was a way to transport all you libertarian pin heads back to the times you thought were so grand - preferably ten year sentences.

In case you didn't know it, railroads lost their monopoly on long haul transportation after WW2 and were all going bankrupt, until the government stepped in and kept them afloat, because it would have been a huge loss to the nation to have all the track torn up and the land sold for whatever cash it could bring. Without the government, you wouldn't even have a f##king train station because there would be no trains.

In the absence of the above mentioned time machine, IMO all libertarians should be made to at least take a junior college class on economics, so they can be brought out of their ludicrous fantasy land.
As for your argument with "politics", please try to understand that your argument is really with humanity, because that thing called "politics" is the only way humans get things done. Even Mussolini and Stalin, - even the Roman Emperors - had to deal with "politics".
 
Scorpio
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:15 am

NIKV69 wrote:
This is unions people. You wanted them, you attack the companies when they push back so now this is what you get. You also forgot the work takes 4 times as long as it should too.

Yeah, because unions are just a US thing. No such thing as unions in Asia, Australia or Europe... :roll:
 
ltbewr
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:23 pm

Let us also not forget the greed, excessive overhead costs and profits of contractors and sub-contractors, the high costs for transportation ($90 tolls for a tractor trailer to cross the GWB), the over the top costs of environmental reviews, costs of land, NIMBY challenge costs, along with too high labor costs are also factors in the excessive costs of too many public projects.
 
LAH1
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:53 pm

"4 times" looks like a bit of an understatement. The new Crossrail under London is :-

Crossrail's tunnelling marathon under London is now complete. Crossrail tunnelling began in May 2012 and ended at Farringdon with the arrival of tunnelling machine Victoria. Over the last three years, eight 1,000 tonne tunnelling machines have bored 42km or 26 miles of new 6.2 diameter rail tunnels under London.
Crossrail's tunnelling marathon under London is now complete. Crossrail tunnelling began in May 2012 and ended at Farringdon with the arrival of tunnelling machine Victoria. Over the last three years, eight 1,000 tonne tunnelling machines have bored 42km or 26 miles of new 6.2 diameter rail tunnels under London.

The total is just under £15Billion but that includes infrastructure developments on other parts of the line. We have unions too and H&S laws.
 
LAH1
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:55 pm

Apologies for that double text
 
Flighty
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:34 pm

A union is a corporation like any other. Their goal is to get 100% of the money as revenue (income to their members) and also a high dues rate (the profit margin of the union). Then union leaders can buy Rolexes for their sons and nephews to cement their family dynasty.

No work need be performed. If anything, the goal is to stretch the project out as long as possible, so it provides wealth transfers for 100+ years.

Now, if Elon Musk were in charge, it would all be done at 1/10 the cost and 10 times the speed, and a few hiccups here and there, maybe some caved in basements.

America is so rich that we have almost no actual idea about prudent financial management. In the end, inevitably, without these survival skills, we will be poor again in the future.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:07 pm

Unions (Public & Private, & Govt.) will take all they can get, just because, the real goal, is, to take all you can get. Gettin' while the gettin' is good.

Sorta like the Greek model.
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bagoldex
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:34 pm

Maybe they could save a few bucks and give the job to a bunch of low-wage West Virginia coal miners.

http://www.wvminesafety.org/disaster.htm
 
NIKV69
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:05 pm

Scorpio wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Yeah, because unions are just a US thing. No such thing as unions in Asia, Australia or Europe... :roll:


Unions are illegal in Dubai as well. :duck:
The Juice is loose and he is in Vegas!
 
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Aesma
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:29 pm

My (French) company just finished a road tunnel in Miami. I guess it was cheaper than going with a US company.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
MaverickM11
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:56 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Yeah, because unions are just a US thing. No such thing as unions in Asia, Australia or Europe... :roll:


Unions are illegal in Dubai as well. :duck:

Freedom is being able to work your labor to death. Human rights are a #jobkiller :roll:
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
af773atmsp
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:25 pm

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
I was watching a documentary called the rise and fall of Penn Station. Back in the days when the original Penn Station (Not this underground maze we have now) was first built, it was all done with private money as the president of the Pennsylvania Railroad (Which at the time was the largest corporation in the US believe it or not) had a huge vision to bring his railroad across the Hudson into Manhattan. When folks doubted him, he put his money where is mouth was and got it done. If the rail lines in NYC had been the public state owned commuter lines they are now, I am not sure that this project would have ever been done.

I read that same New York times article the OP posted. It is pretty sad what it takes to get things done anymore. One of the biggest issues is because most of these systems are owned by the public sector, inevitably politicians are the ones that have to get things done. And this creates a lot of unneccesary red tape (Something to his credit Trump has tried to address) to the government agencies, and projects that should have been done a long time ago still are tied up in burecratic mess. Here is just a few of the ones I can think of.

1. In Boston, there are four key things I think should have been done by now, and another one that I think could be done. 1 is the Blue Line extension on both ends, Lynn on one end, and to the Red LIne at Charles on the other end. Second is the Green Line Extension, which should have been well underway by now. Lechmere station should have already been replaced the last time the Green line was shut down north of North Station. Third would be the North-South Rail Link, which should have been finished with the Big Dig. And lastly would be the replacement service for the old elevated Orange Line on Washington Street. Dudley Square in Boston is the very heart of the Black Community in Boston, and for their service to be taken away and imo not sufficently replaced is inexcusable.

2. A new San Diego airport. This has been beat to death in the main aviation forum.

3. An extension of the Las Vegas monorail into the airport on one end and to downtown on the other end.

4. A new C and D terminal at IAD. Again, beat to death in the main forum.

5. Moynahan Penn Station. The Farley building should have been renovated by now, instead Penn Station is still a convuluted mess.

6. I know this isnt the US, but the third LHR runway has to be here too right?

As I said just a few. And while we as taxpayers give millions of dollars to billionaires to pay for lavish new sports stadiums (Why politicians can be blackmailed by wealthy sports owners still eludes me) we neglect money for some of these other projects. And these dont get managed right because politicians only think short term, which is to the next election and never on what happens in the long run. I could write a book on the subject. But government by necessity runs these projects, and that leads to the problems mentioned in this article. And even if they do get stuff built, it doesnt always work properly. BER still isnt open, and the big dig had some issues with collapsing tunnels.

I dont know what the answer is long run. I wish it didnt have to be political, but it may have to be.

That is shallow thinking at its grandest.
So you pine for the late 19th century when steelworkers worked 12 hour days six and a half days a week and when they were splattered with molten metal and died of their burns (which was not at all uncommon in the mills back then) their wives and children were tossed out of the company housing with the last paycheck after the company store took out the balance due: when women also worked 12 hour days in textile mills for subsistence wages, read up on the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire it will give you a slim introduction of how the common folk lived back then. You long for the days of JP Morgan and JD Rockefeller. Just lovely! I just wish there was a way to transport all you libertarian pin heads back to the times you thought were so grand - preferably ten year sentences.

In case you didn't know it, railroads lost their monopoly on long haul transportation after WW2 and were all going bankrupt, until the government stepped in and kept them afloat, because it would have been a huge loss to the nation to have all the track torn up and the land sold for whatever cash it could bring. Without the government, you wouldn't even have a f##king train station because there would be no trains.

In the absence of the above mentioned time machine, IMO all libertarians should be made to at least take a junior college class on economics, so they can be brought out of their ludicrous fantasy land.
As for your argument with "politics", please try to understand that your argument is really with humanity, because that thing called "politics" is the only way humans get things done. Even Mussolini and Stalin, - even the Roman Emperors - had to deal with "politics".


First of all, get off your high horse. He wasn't implying that workers shouldn't have rights and be working in dangerous conditions without safety precautions. Pretty sure he was implying that there is so much government red tape that projects progress at a snail's pace. For example I think studies on environmental impact are good, but they don't have to be dragged out over years.

As for the government stepping in to help the railroads, that is complete BS. Once the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 was signed it was a near fatal blow for the American railroad industry. Passenger rail in this country has never been the same, and it took decades for the surviving freight railroads to recover albeit with mergers and abandonment of thousands of miles of track. I'm sure you know the story of Penn Central. What did government do when Penn Central went bankrupt? Nothing. They finally got their act together years after PC declared bankruptcy. There was also the proposed Rock Island-Union Pacific merger, which was dragged out for years until the federal government finally made a decision, but at that point the Rock Island was in such a decrepit state that Union Pacific dropped the proposal.
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Flighty
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:30 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Scorpio wrote:


Unions are illegal in Dubai as well. :duck:

Freedom is being able to work your labor to death. Human rights are a #jobkiller :roll:


If New York Metro Transit Authority employees don't like their jobs, there are other jobs available that pay maybe 20% of what MTA employees receive. It is a crony giveaway program, a moral and civic corruption that hurts the most vulnerable people in the community.

I don't see why MTA doesn't hire some train operators without pensions for only $100,000 per year instead of the 200k-300k including pension accrual that current employees are paid. Let the existing workers retire early. What Northwest did to the mechanics except bigger better and more beneficial to the community. If people threaten to shut the system down then put a black bag over their head and arrest them for that. This could all be over in a week. But we all know who is boss. The government workers themselves run NYC.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:10 am

A problem with the SAS is the alignment sucks. There's a 14 block stretch without a station that crosses THREE other lines and there is no connection. In London, two lines NEVER cross without a connection. And then, although the track turns at 125st, it doesn't extend another few blocks to connect with the A/C line to *finally* provide crosstown service above the Park.

And have you seen the inside of the new stations? They already look horrible. There are no "next train" indicators (inexcusable on a modern subway system). On opening day, some of them were already filthy.

The subway system was the bane of my existence when I lived there. My favorite was the two week period when my local station had actual raw sewage dripping down a wall and the only response was "they're working on it" when I saw no evidence of any work above or below ground.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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WarRI1
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:07 am

To all you union haters, I am looking for help. minimum wage, no benefits, no retirement benefits, no health insurance, I supply the pick ax and shovels and wheel barrows,, no gloves provided though. Twelve hour days, six days a week, no overtime. If I can get you guys to sign on, I can make a shitload of money and build that subway for fifty percent of the projected costs by the union construction companies.

When you get to the job site, you do not get paid until you are standing in the tunnel with pick and shovel in hand. Screw that portal to portal shit, I cannot afford that, I need a new
yacht. Let me know, you can connect with me on my web site. Slaves incorporated. com. I know you anti-union guys will love the conditions of employment also, paid every day in cash. When I get really going, I can start housing and company stores also. You can charge at the store for a minimum interest rate. Let me know, I am sick of being retired for twenty years on union benefits and company pensions along with health plans and SS and Medicare. I should mention my 401 k savings also in the interest of honesty like tRump conducts himself. Openness and honesty above all. Life is too easy for me, I need a challenge. :eek: :eek: ;)
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salttee
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:35 am

af773atmsp wrote:
get off your high horse............
If you didn't like my tone then you must not have read apodino's pity potty series of nonsensical whines and innuendo. From my POV that was disgusting.
af773atmsp wrote:
I think studies on environmental impact are good, but they don't have to be dragged out over years.
This is how you convince yourself that "Red Tape" is somehow up their with the plague and Nazism. You throw out a tag line "environmental studies" which is actually a dog whistle to your fellow libertarian blockheads and walk away from the conversation, even though it is at the crux of your argument.

The population of the US in 1900, when Penn Station was started, was seventy six million, the current population is 323 million. But let's refine those numbers a bit: of the seventy six million people in the US in 1900, almost nine million were black, and there were over nine million people of Polish descent; throw in a few million to account for the Dagos, Jews, native American and Hispanic populations and we are down to fifty million people who had even the slightest consideration as humans with needs of their own outside of JP Morgan and John D.
As far as environmental concerns go, this chart should shine a light.
Image
We almost made deer extinct in our part of north America. But environmental concerns are not the major reason for "red tape" hindering construction. These days, in this country, the developers have to bend to the neighborhood, we don't allow methyl isocyanate plants to be built on the middle of dense population centers. We also don't (usually) allow chicken farms in residential neighborhoods, because the people of the neighborhoods want to control their environments: they have rights. A guy with a lot of money cannot come in and change the character of a neighborhood. And in my opinion, that's the way it should be.
af773atmsp wrote:
As for the government stepping in to help the railroads, that is complete BS.
Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak
af773atmsp wrote:
Once the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 was signed it was a near fatal blow for the American railroad industry.
That comes off as another Libertarian dog whistle, its a whine about how gubermnt has destroyed merica. The interstate highway system is the best thing that ever happened to this country, it liberated us all. That's called progress.

Once more I would like to point out that the ubiquitous chatter about "politics" and "politicians" is nonsensical, it really is an argument against humanity itself; there is no other way. If "politics" bothers some people as much as they claim, the only solution I can offer them is to shoot themselves; with 7.6 billion people on the planet, there's no room for them to go off and live in isolation (not that any libertarian would actuall do that anyway).
 
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:29 am

NIKV69 wrote:
This is unions people. You wanted them, you attack the companies when they push back so now this is what you get. You also forgot the work takes 4 times as long as it should too.


No, it's not always the unions.

In my experience (and in my industry) we know that lot of the union people are more reliable and efficient. The non union people (including some on contract) seem to work longer hours to get same or less work done and cost a fortune. I know of non-union people who slack off, go take coffee breaks all the time, off outside to smoke whenever they want and misusing the flexible working hours arrangements. If you want to spend so much time not doing your job, then you should put in a leave application. I'm part of a union and I don't go slacking off like that... :evil:

It drives me mad.

And now while we are on the topic of unions, why can't we then ban corporate unions, you know, these industry unions for companies or company CEOs, it's about time there is a crackdown on those old men's clubs. Especially when they are involved in donating to political parties. That should be illegal anyway. Somehow the union haters are always very supportive of these industry unions and management unions.
 
af773atmsp
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:21 pm

salttee wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
get off your high horse............
If you didn't like my tone then you must not have read apodino's pity potty series of nonsensical whines and innuendo. From my POV that was disgusting.
af773atmsp wrote:
I think studies on environmental impact are good, but they don't have to be dragged out over years.
This is how you convince yourself that "Red Tape" is somehow up their with the plague and Nazism. You throw out a tag line "environmental studies" which is actually a dog whistle to your fellow libertarian blockheads and walk away from the conversation, even though it is at the crux of your argument.

The population of the US in 1900, when Penn Station was started, was seventy six million, the current population is 323 million. But let's refine those numbers a bit: of the seventy six million people in the US in 1900, almost nine million were black, and there were over nine million people of Polish descent; throw in a few million to account for the Dagos, Jews, native American and Hispanic populations and we are down to fifty million people who had even the slightest consideration as humans with needs of their own outside of JP Morgan and John D.
As far as environmental concerns go, this chart should shine a light.
Image
We almost made deer extinct in our part of north America. But environmental concerns are not the major reason for "red tape" hindering construction. These days, in this country, the developers have to bend to the neighborhood, we don't allow methyl isocyanate plants to be built on the middle of dense population centers. We also don't (usually) allow chicken farms in residential neighborhoods, because the people of the neighborhoods want to control their environments: they have rights. A guy with a lot of money cannot come in and change the character of a neighborhood. And in my opinion, that's the way it should be.
af773atmsp wrote:
As for the government stepping in to help the railroads, that is complete BS.
Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak
af773atmsp wrote:
Once the Federal Aid Highway Act of 1956 was signed it was a near fatal blow for the American railroad industry.
That comes off as another Libertarian dog whistle, its a whine about how gubermnt has destroyed merica. The interstate highway system is the best thing that ever happened to this country, it liberated us all. That's called progress.

Once more I would like to point out that the ubiquitous chatter about "politics" and "politicians" is nonsensical, it really is an argument against humanity itself; there is no other way. If "politics" bothers some people as much as they claim, the only solution I can offer them is to shoot themselves; with 7.6 billion people on the planet, there's no room for them to go off and live in isolation (not that any libertarian would actuall do that anyway).


Seeing as you assume I'm Libertarian even though I'm Socialist, assume that I'm comparing government red tape to the plague and Nazism, and seem to be suggesting that I kill myself, this will be my last response to you even though everything I say will probably go right over your head.

The Interstate Highway System is good in some ways, and bad in other ways. Not only nearly killing the railroads, but also government doing very little to help them. Most of Amtrak is a joke, and it has taken decades for state governments to upgrade some Amtrak routes to corridor trains instead of long-distance, once per day, 5+ hour late trains. We in Minneapolis/St. Paul can't even get a second train to Chicago even though studies have shown it would have good ridership. Lot of talking by state governments, but very little doing. The Interstate Highway System also destroyed many neighborhoods including low income urban neighborhoods. Now these communities are split by a giant valley of concrete and asphalt. You claim the Interstate Highway System is so great, but also support environmental considerations in these projects. Do you really think there was serious environmental considerations when the Interstate Highway System was being planned and built?
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:21 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
This is unions people. You wanted them, you attack the companies when they push back so now this is what you get. You also forgot the work takes 4 times as long as it should too.


Remember a few weeks ago when all those people in NY were crying that they should pay less federal tax because their state taxes are "doing the fed's job." Nope. They're just paying for this wasteful shit. :rotfl:
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
petertenthije
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:39 pm

Look at it from the bright side, the unemployment figures are going down! But don’t worry, the republicans will surely find a way to credit Trump for this.
Attamottamotta!
 
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:31 pm

LAH1 wrote:
"4 times" looks like a bit of an understatement. The new Crossrail under London is :-

Crossrail's tunnelling marathon under London is now complete. Crossrail tunnelling began in May 2012 and ended at Farringdon with the arrival of tunnelling machine Victoria. Over the last three years, eight 1,000 tonne tunnelling machines have bored 42km or 26 miles of new 6.2 diameter rail tunnels under London.
Crossrail's tunnelling marathon under London is now complete. Crossrail tunnelling began in May 2012 and ended at Farringdon with the arrival of tunnelling machine Victoria. Over the last three years, eight 1,000 tonne tunnelling machines have bored 42km or 26 miles of new 6.2 diameter rail tunnels under London.

The total is just under £15Billion but that includes infrastructure developments on other parts of the line. We have unions too and H&S laws.



I was thinking this as well, Crossrail is a major rail project being shoehorned into an ancient crowded city, in a country with the highest environmental and health and safety legislation plus a reputation for high costs and time over runs, yet it makes this project in New York look exceedingly badly managed and hideously expensive.
 
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:57 am

cpd wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
This is unions people. You wanted them, you attack the companies when they push back so now this is what you get. You also forgot the work takes 4 times as long as it should too.


No, it's not always the unions.

In my experience (and in my industry) we know that lot of the union people are more reliable and efficient. The non union people (including some on contract) seem to work longer hours to get same or less work done and cost a fortune. I know of non-union people who slack off, go take coffee breaks all the time, off outside to smoke whenever they want and misusing the flexible working hours arrangements. If you want to spend so much time not doing your job, then you should put in a leave application. I'm part of a union and I don't go slacking off like that... :evil:

It drives me mad.

And now while we are on the topic of unions, why can't we then ban corporate unions, you know, these industry unions for companies or company CEOs, it's about time there is a crackdown on those old men's clubs. Especially when they are involved in donating to political parties. That should be illegal anyway. Somehow the union haters are always very supportive of these industry unions and management unions.



Exactly. Well said and of course this will mean nothing to the advocates of all powerful corporate power. Again for the life of me, I cannot imagine we have any CEO's or multi million dollar earners on here. Maybe a few Harvard Business school grads maybe lurking and trolling. ;) At least they try to make us think so anyway. :sarcastic:
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:23 am

The MTA is a complete joke all around, unions, non-unions, hell even the people who empty the trash at the head offices.

I've come across a few jobs in the past several years ... what the job, job duties, and pay were...insane.

Just one example - when you go to the subway stations and you read the posted signs announcing service changes because of maintenance or what have you ... the MTA was hiring in the spring of 2017, someone just to write the text on those signs. Full benefits, pension, $142,500-$150,000 salary range.
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:06 am

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/New-Yo ... E18719.htm

I see no insane union salaries on this site which supposedly has accurate information about the MTA of NY. If anyone has more accurate info, put the link on. All this bullshit with no information to look at. I earned as much or more as most and have been retired 20 years. Now overtime cannot be figured in as regular wages. Now Management is entirely different, I am talking Union. Now subway construction is another thing, all controlled by construction costs which are skyrocketing here also. Not all caused by wages only. That is bullshit to me.
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salttee
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:41 am

af773atmsp wrote:
Seeing as you assume I'm Libertarian even though I'm Socialist
A socialist jumping to DIRECTFLT's defense: ain't that a hoot!

BTW
If you think Amtrak is a joke you are no friend of rail service.
Without Amtrak there would very little passenger rail service left in the US., thousands of miles of track would have been abandoned.
 
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:39 am

salttee wrote:
af773atmsp wrote:
Seeing as you assume I'm Libertarian even though I'm Socialist
A socialist jumping to DIRECTFLT's defense: ain't that a hoot!

BTW
If you think Amtrak is a joke you are no friend of rail service.
Without Amtrak there would very little passenger rail service left in the US., thousands of miles of track would have been abandoned.


Without Amtrak, the Northeast Corridor would have viable rail service. In fact it would probably be cheaper, because the Northeast Corridor wouldn't have to subsidize unprofitable passenger service in the rest of the country. There isn't enough passenger service in the rest of the country to make or break the business case for keeping or shutting down track. There's still lots of freight that gets transported by rail and has been since passenger service was eliminated by the private sector in the 60's and 70's.

Rail service in the middle of the country is inconvenient, slower, and more expensive than alternatives. I can't even get catch an Amtrak train in my city. I would have to drive to San Antonio, Austin, or Houston to catch a train. Have you priced parking near an Amtrak station? I just ran a Google search, and when I queried parking near the San Antonio station (SAS), I got $540 per week or $77 per day, and there is no free transportation between the parking lot and the station. I could get airport parking in the garage at SAT for $12 per day or nearby offsite parking For just $7 per day, and both come with free shuttle bus service between the parking lot and the terminal. This is just examining incidental expenses. I haven't even included how inconvenient the train scheduling is compared to airline service at the airports I am most likely to use.
 
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:24 am

flyingclrs727 wrote:
Without Amtrak, the Northeast Corridor would have viable rail service. In fact it would probably be cheaper, because the Northeast Corridor wouldn't have to subsidize unprofitable passenger service in the rest of the country.
According to this advocacy paper, even the NE corridor only recovers 90% of costs from fares.
https://www.cato.org/publications/comme ... n-railroad

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do tend to push back at nonsense. The guy above says he's an advocate for rail but he says Amtrak is a joke. Amtrak has pumped 13 billion into the nation's rail service. How can defunding rail improve rail?

I know I know, by closing out "unprofitable" routes. That sounds a lot like eliminating rail service to me. How can a rail advocate be in favor of eliminating rail?
 
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:36 pm

salttee wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
Without Amtrak, the Northeast Corridor would have viable rail service. In fact it would probably be cheaper, because the Northeast Corridor wouldn't have to subsidize unprofitable passenger service in the rest of the country.
According to this advocacy paper, even the NE corridor only recovers 90% of costs from fares.
https://www.cato.org/publications/comme ... n-railroad

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do tend to push back at nonsense. The guy above says he's an advocate for rail but he says Amtrak is a joke. Amtrak has pumped 13 billion into the nation's rail service. How can defunding rail improve rail?

I know I know, by closing out "unprofitable" routes. That sounds a lot like eliminating rail service to me. How can a rail advocate be in favor of eliminating rail?


I shouldn't be responding, but your assumption of me is way off. I support improving long distance service (upgrading track for faster speed, relieving bottlenecks, new locomotives and rolling stock, etc.). However I have more support for improving and expanding corridor trains (for example Minneapolis-Chicago, Minneapolis-Kansas City, etc.) because there's a good potential ridership and it can compete better with other modes of transportation. Hell, I've advocated for a regional rail system in the Twin Cities similar to the S-Bahn in Germany. You really don't know me and my life, but you're throwing out these wild accusations.
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:43 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/New-York-City-Transit-Authority-Salaries-E18719.htm

I see no insane union salaries on this site which supposedly has accurate information about the MTA of NY. If anyone has more accurate info, put the link on. All this bullshit with no information to look at. I earned as much or more as most and have been retired 20 years. Now overtime cannot be figured in as regular wages. Now Management is entirely different, I am talking Union. Now subway construction is another thing, all controlled by construction costs which are skyrocketing here also. Not all caused by wages only. That is bullshit to me.


https://www.google.com/search?q=mta+inf ... e&ie=UTF-8

It's problems across the board, throughout the entire system, not just the union workers.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:18 pm

apodino wrote:
I was watching a documentary called the rise and fall of Penn Station. Back in the days when the original Penn Station (Not this underground maze we have now) was first built, it was all done with private money as the president of the Pennsylvania Railroad (Which at the time was the largest corporation in the US believe it or not) had a huge vision to bring his railroad across the Hudson into Manhattan. When folks doubted him, he put his money where is mouth was and got it done. If the rail lines in NYC had been the public state owned commuter lines they are now, I am not sure that this project would have ever been done.

I read that same New York times article the OP posted. It is pretty sad what it takes to get things done anymore. One of the biggest issues is because most of these systems are owned by the public sector, inevitably politicians are the ones that have to get things done. And this creates a lot of unneccesary red tape (Something to his credit Trump has tried to address) to the government agencies, and projects that should have been done a long time ago still are tied up in burecratic mess. Here is just a few of the ones I can think of.

1. In Boston, there are four key things I think should have been done by now, and another one that I think could be done. 1 is the Blue Line extension on both ends, Lynn on one end, and to the Red LIne at Charles on the other end. Second is the Green Line Extension, which should have been well underway by now. Lechmere station should have already been replaced the last time the Green line was shut down north of North Station. Third would be the North-South Rail Link, which should have been finished with the Big Dig. And lastly would be the replacement service for the old elevated Orange Line on Washington Street. Dudley Square in Boston is the very heart of the Black Community in Boston, and for their service to be taken away and imo not sufficently replaced is inexcusable.

2. A new San Diego airport. This has been beat to death in the main aviation forum.

3. An extension of the Las Vegas monorail into the airport on one end and to downtown on the other end.

4. A new C and D terminal at IAD. Again, beat to death in the main forum.

5. Moynahan Penn Station. The Farley building should have been renovated by now, instead Penn Station is still a convuluted mess.

6. I know this isnt the US, but the third LHR runway has to be here too right?

As I said just a few. And while we as taxpayers give millions of dollars to billionaires to pay for lavish new sports stadiums (Why politicians can be blackmailed by wealthy sports owners still eludes me) we neglect money for some of these other projects. And these dont get managed right because politicians only think short term, which is to the next election and never on what happens in the long run. I could write a book on the subject. But government by necessity runs these projects, and that leads to the problems mentioned in this article. And even if they do get stuff built, it doesnt always work properly. BER still isnt open, and the big dig had some issues with collapsing tunnels.

I dont know what the answer is long run. I wish it didnt have to be political, but it may have to be.


The biggest issue with infrastructure in the democratic world is that people don't agree on the solutions and when people have the right to vote, city councilors have to listen to their constituents as most of this is at the state or local level. People who drive don't want subways and they cannot ever agree where to build an new airport or expand a current one.

In Toronto a city in dire need of public transport no city government can agree on what to do to solve the problem. There was a light rail solution similar to what exists in a lot of Australian cities (Melbourne being an example) which would be implemented much faster and cheaper. Rob Ford won in 2010 and ran on Subways and a lot of his supporters were pro-car so the previous plan was scrapped. The current mayor is looking at solutions but they are still fighting yesterdays battle and really the project just needs to get done. I also have conservative firends who scoff at the idea of having a rail link between Toronto and Kitchener/Waterloo because they don't use transit. When you let people have a say you get the NIMBY's and you not everyone agrees. Actually our transit czar just left for New York and hopefully he does them well.

Same with LHR. They simply cannot build a runway because the people that live there don't want one and IIRC there are conservation areas near LHR that would need to be filled in to get the new runway in.

Regarding the argument with the sports stadiums yes that is disgusting and I think the end has come for that as the money in politics issue has been exposed far more (Jerry donates to politicians whom will use the public coffers for him) and the results to the local economies has become evidence that the sports team has such little economic output that losing it is not a big deal. Ironically is more likely that a conservative government is going to allocate money for a stadium far more than a liberal one which is why Seattle is without an NBA team and until recently LA has not had NFL teams.

The stadiums built in California recently and the state and local government is the Los Angeles and San Francisco areas have refused giving public money for any new stadiums or arenas. The Rams stadium will be private and so will the new arena for the Warriors was private also as was Levi's stadium IIRC.

In Asia, Russia etc. they build it and if the public disagrees then too bad, you cannot protest your concern good for progress but it has it downsides as those people don't have the rights to have a debate.
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:29 pm

A Union member commented on the Daily Mail article, but his comments were mis-directing and missed the egregious aspect of the NY dig.... Yes the wages were quite high, as compared to any similar construction anywhere in the world. His point was that they were worth the money they made, due to the danger of the job.

But what he failed to mention, was the NY "extra workers" on the high paying payroll, that, in almost any other similar job, in the world, would not be necessary.

It's that extra worker bloat that I scoff at.
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:32 am

stlgph wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/New-York-City-Transit-Authority-Salaries-E18719.htm

I see no insane union salaries on this site which supposedly has accurate information about the MTA of NY. If anyone has more accurate info, put the link on. All this bullshit with no information to look at. I earned as much or more as most and have been retired 20 years. Now overtime cannot be figured in as regular wages. Now Management is entirely different, I am talking Union. Now subway construction is another thing, all controlled by construction costs which are skyrocketing here also. Not all caused by wages only. That is bullshit to me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mta+inf ... e&ie=UTF-8

It's problems across the board, throughout the entire system, not just the union workers.[/quote

I certainly agree, the union worker is always scapegoat number one., while the fat cats continue to rake it in.
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af773atmsp
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Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:48 am

StarAC17 wrote:
apodino wrote:
I was watching a documentary called the rise and fall of Penn Station. Back in the days when the original Penn Station (Not this underground maze we have now) was first built, it was all done with private money as the president of the Pennsylvania Railroad (Which at the time was the largest corporation in the US believe it or not) had a huge vision to bring his railroad across the Hudson into Manhattan. When folks doubted him, he put his money where is mouth was and got it done. If the rail lines in NYC had been the public state owned commuter lines they are now, I am not sure that this project would have ever been done.

I read that same New York times article the OP posted. It is pretty sad what it takes to get things done anymore. One of the biggest issues is because most of these systems are owned by the public sector, inevitably politicians are the ones that have to get things done. And this creates a lot of unneccesary red tape (Something to his credit Trump has tried to address) to the government agencies, and projects that should have been done a long time ago still are tied up in burecratic mess. Here is just a few of the ones I can think of.

1. In Boston, there are four key things I think should have been done by now, and another one that I think could be done. 1 is the Blue Line extension on both ends, Lynn on one end, and to the Red LIne at Charles on the other end. Second is the Green Line Extension, which should have been well underway by now. Lechmere station should have already been replaced the last time the Green line was shut down north of North Station. Third would be the North-South Rail Link, which should have been finished with the Big Dig. And lastly would be the replacement service for the old elevated Orange Line on Washington Street. Dudley Square in Boston is the very heart of the Black Community in Boston, and for their service to be taken away and imo not sufficently replaced is inexcusable.

2. A new San Diego airport. This has been beat to death in the main aviation forum.

3. An extension of the Las Vegas monorail into the airport on one end and to downtown on the other end.

4. A new C and D terminal at IAD. Again, beat to death in the main forum.

5. Moynahan Penn Station. The Farley building should have been renovated by now, instead Penn Station is still a convuluted mess.

6. I know this isnt the US, but the third LHR runway has to be here too right?

As I said just a few. And while we as taxpayers give millions of dollars to billionaires to pay for lavish new sports stadiums (Why politicians can be blackmailed by wealthy sports owners still eludes me) we neglect money for some of these other projects. And these dont get managed right because politicians only think short term, which is to the next election and never on what happens in the long run. I could write a book on the subject. But government by necessity runs these projects, and that leads to the problems mentioned in this article. And even if they do get stuff built, it doesnt always work properly. BER still isnt open, and the big dig had some issues with collapsing tunnels.

I dont know what the answer is long run. I wish it didnt have to be political, but it may have to be.


The biggest issue with infrastructure in the democratic world is that people don't agree on the solutions and when people have the right to vote, city councilors have to listen to their constituents as most of this is at the state or local level. People who drive don't want subways and they cannot ever agree where to build an new airport or expand a current one.

In Toronto a city in dire need of public transport no city government can agree on what to do to solve the problem. There was a light rail solution similar to what exists in a lot of Australian cities (Melbourne being an example) which would be implemented much faster and cheaper. Rob Ford won in 2010 and ran on Subways and a lot of his supporters were pro-car so the previous plan was scrapped. The current mayor is looking at solutions but they are still fighting yesterdays battle and really the project just needs to get done. I also have conservative firends who scoff at the idea of having a rail link between Toronto and Kitchener/Waterloo because they don't use transit. When you let people have a say you get the NIMBY's and you not everyone agrees. Actually our transit czar just left for New York and hopefully he does them well.

Same with LHR. They simply cannot build a runway because the people that live there don't want one and IIRC there are conservation areas near LHR that would need to be filled in to get the new runway in.

Regarding the argument with the sports stadiums yes that is disgusting and I think the end has come for that as the money in politics issue has been exposed far more (Jerry donates to politicians whom will use the public coffers for him) and the results to the local economies has become evidence that the sports team has such little economic output that losing it is not a big deal. Ironically is more likely that a conservative government is going to allocate money for a stadium far more than a liberal one which is why Seattle is without an NBA team and until recently LA has not had NFL teams.

The stadiums built in California recently and the state and local government is the Los Angeles and San Francisco areas have refused giving public money for any new stadiums or arenas. The Rams stadium will be private and so will the new arena for the Warriors was private also as was Levi's stadium IIRC.

In Asia, Russia etc. they build it and if the public disagrees then too bad, you cannot protest your concern good for progress but it has it downsides as those people don't have the rights to have a debate.


Search for "Dan Patch Corridor" and you'll likely see info about the gag order that was put in place in the Minnesota Legislature in 2002. Constituents along the line flipped when they heard commuter trains might use the tracks that already existed behind their house and have existed since 1910. The state DOT and regional government aren't allowed to discuss it, study it, and build it.
DC10-40,MD88,A319,A320,A332,717,722,733,737,738,752,ATR-72

SY, DL, FI, FL, BA, EI, NW, MG, DY, EZY, F9, WN

MSP, BOS, JFK, DCA, LAX, SAN, MCO, RSW, PIE, ATL, DTW, PSP, ORD, MDW, MKE, MCI, IND, NAS, KEF, LHR, MUC, OSL, BOO, CPH, HEL, BUD, AMS, EDI, DUB
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4268
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:32 am

This only surprises anybody who has never seen the glacial pace at which "public" works in NYC happen. For every guy actually doing any work there are at least 4, and sometimes much more, union-mandated "supervisors" standing around staring at him. Not to mention the other union make-work rules...for a while I used to take a taxi late at night to Hoboken, through the Holland Tunnel, after work. After midnight, one of the two lanes would always be closed for "maintenance". More than once, I saw one of the two lanes cut off in its entirety (all 2.6 kms of it, blocked off with traffic cones), reducing the capacity of the tunnel (one of the main arteries into and out of Manhattan) by 50% and causing massive traffic jams spilling onto Canal Street, so just that one dude (literally, one single employee) could do some maintenance on the ceiling.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
salttee
Posts: 1855
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:27 am

Pyrex wrote:
This only surprises anybody who has never seen the glacial pace at which "public" works in NYC happen. For every guy actually doing any work there are at least 4, and sometimes much more, union-mandated "supervisors" standing around staring at him. Not to mention the other union make-work rules...for a while I used to take a taxi late at night to Hoboken, through the Holland Tunnel, after work. After midnight, one of the two lanes would always be closed for "maintenance". More than once, I saw one of the two lanes cut off in its entirety (all 2.6 kms of it, blocked off with traffic cones), reducing the capacity of the tunnel (one of the main arteries into and out of Manhattan) by 50% and causing massive traffic jams spilling onto Canal Street, so just that one dude (literally, one single employee) could do some maintenance on the ceiling.
There's nothing remarkable about that at all.
The only thing remarkable is that you can't figure out why.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3397
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:01 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
[quote="apodino"


Same with LHR. They simply cannot build a runway because the people that live there don't want one and IIRC there are conservation areas near LHR that would need to be filled in to get the new runway in.

.


LHR employs a large % of the local population, who aren't likely to be opposed to its continuation/expansion, the protestors are generally a completely different set of people, who give their views very loudly and often, Most live further away from the airport than those who work there, and have a "green" agenda.

All of them of course would never contemplate flying anywhere, nor using any air freighted products due to the harm inflicted on the planet. (please note sarcasm in last sentence)
 
af773atmsp
Posts: 2212
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:37 am

Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:53 pm

Here's an article on a lot of the problems with the MTA and deterioration of New York's subway:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/maga ... ality.html
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MSP, BOS, JFK, DCA, LAX, SAN, MCO, RSW, PIE, ATL, DTW, PSP, ORD, MDW, MKE, MCI, IND, NAS, KEF, LHR, MUC, OSL, BOO, CPH, HEL, BUD, AMS, EDI, DUB
 
Flighty
Posts: 9041
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

Re: NYC MTA East Side Subway Tunnel Project Cost 4 times what it would elsewhere in the world

Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:18 pm

Rail pollutes more and is more unsafe than airline flying.

Local rail will probably be obsolete in 20 years as pod-based street (or tunnel) transportation takes over. And it will. The notion of "waiting for the train on the platform" likely will not exist in 30 years. No one will be willing to spend their time doing that.

But, the financial burdens and debts of rail will probably continue for another 100 years.

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