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Revelation
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:15 pm

André Ulveseter ( https://twitter.com/AndUlv/status/951600595743444996 ) says:

Trump loves Norway because we grow his hair.

Image
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
Jetty
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:35 pm

seahawk wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
seahawk wrote:
But if the local people never work against corruption the country will not get rid of it.


What evidence do you have that local people in corrupt countries "never work against corruption"?

Many people fight against corruption in their homelands. Despite the fact that it reduces their life expectancy considerably.

You forget that many corrupt politicians got voted in power in democratic elections. The people in these sh*thole countries wouldn't even have to actively fight corruption if they'd voted with some common sense over the past decades. And then there would be far less incentive to move abroad today. That definitely DOES have to do with the population of said countries, although that doesn't apply every individual obviously.
 
jetero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:04 pm

Jetty wrote:
You forget that many corrupt politicians got voted in power in democratic elections.


Yeah, more often than not they're compulsive liar populists who got into power promising the moon and pitting their base against minorities.

SOUND FAMILIAR?!
 
Jetty
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:09 pm

jetero wrote:
Jetty wrote:
You forget that many corrupt politicians got voted in power in democratic elections.


Yeah, more often than not they're compulsive liar populists who got into power promising the moon and pitting their base against minorities.

SOUND FAMILIAR?!

Definitely. Thus wouldn't you agree likewise that any issues in the USA caused by Trump do have something to do with the people of the USA?
 
jetero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:17 pm

Jetty wrote:
jetero wrote:
Jetty wrote:
You forget that many corrupt politicians got voted in power in democratic elections.


Yeah, more often than not they're compulsive liar populists who got into power promising the moon and pitting their base against minorities.

SOUND FAMILIAR?!

Definitely. Thus wouldn't you agree likewise that any issues in the USA caused by Trump do have something to do with the people of the USA?


Oh that's for sure not up for debate.

When the longstanding democratic institutions of the U.S. crumble thanks to Trumpism, I guess every one of us Americans can be labeled as undesirables from a "sh*thole" country, nevermind the majority of us who voted against Bozo.
 
LMP737
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:28 pm

787Driver wrote:

True that. Let's be real folks.. there's a reason why hordes of people from Africa are trying to get to Europe and USA and the same with Haiti I guess. He could have used a different rhetoric, but who here would love to live in Somalia, Nigeria or Haiti? Nobody? Well not surprising now, is it? It's not being racist just accepting the facts that are already obvious to anyone..


So what s*ithole country is your family from? Did that ever cross your mind? Say hypothetically your family was from Ireland. In the mid to late 1800's Ireland was not a pleasant place to live for many reasons. Wonder what would have happened if a president said the same thing back then and then decided to cut off immigration from Ireland


787Driver wrote:
Much lower standards of living, higher infant mortality rate, more illiterate people, more uneducated people and so on and on


That's funny, that's what a lot of Norwegians would say about the United States.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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787Driver
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:57 pm

LMP737 wrote:

So what s*ithole country is your family from? Did that ever cross your mind? Say hypothetically your family was from Ireland. In the mid to late 1800's Ireland was not a pleasant place to live for many reasons. Wonder what would have happened if a president said the same thing back then and then decided to cut off immigration from Ireland


I understand your anger, but come on, all I’m doing is stating the obvious. Africa has the potential to be the wealthiest continent on earth. So many resources and all types of climate for growing just about anything. And yes things are improving for sure, but there’s a long way to go. If you can’t accept the unbiased facts, then there’s no way we can have a constructive conversation. Sorry.

And of course you’ll find many people from those countries that will contribute to the economy, but again, facts are simply that historical data shows that people from certain regions are much harder to integrate - even second and third generation - than people from other places.


LMP737 wrote:

That's funny, that's what a lot of Norwegians would say about the United States.


And that would be true in a way...
 
Pyrex
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:11 pm

I have it on good authority that no other U.S. politician has ever spoken on less than complimentary terms about anyone or any country behind closed doors.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
seb146
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:07 am

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Can someone please give him oral so we can remove him from office? Please?



That isn't enough just ask Bill Clinton. One thing I can't believe hasn't been discussed is how the networks aren't censoring the word @@@@hole and saying it and printing it on their telecasts. Really weird.


Weirder than that: TRUMP SAID IT OUT LOUD!!

No, actually that is about par for the course. Which, BTW, he is doing again this weekend.

Remember when the right was outraged and shocked when Hillary made the "basket of deplorable" comment? Where is that same outrage now.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
salttee
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:07 am

787Driver wrote:
all I’m doing is stating the obvious.
You're doing more than that here; your offering false equivalencies in order to dismiss Trump's heinous behavior:
787Driver wrote:
Many people are on their moral high horse here. Let’s be honest, we all have said or thought something that would be inappropriate in a larger group of people. And yes his comment was very inappropriate considering he is the POTUS, but I’m willing to bet that many families have used similar expressions around the dinner table when discussing politics, etc.

And you have a very superior and condescending attitude.
787Driver wrote:
If you can’t accept the unbiased facts, then there’s no way we can have a constructive conversation. Sorry.

Which is unsupported IMO.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:28 am

seb146 wrote:
Remember when the right was outraged and shocked when Hillary made the "basket of deplorable" comment? Where is that same outrage now.


Because that was deeply personal attack against roughly half of all American citizens. Complete opposite of a widely accepted general belief about some countries.

Instead of asking that question, ask where was the outrage was when Obama openly called Libya an equal term? Disgusting and racist Obama, right?

I want a President that isn't afraid to bluntly raise an important point about who we accept into this country. Trump gained respect with his America-first thinking, unless you're an anti-American globalist that is.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:19 am

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Remember when the right was outraged and shocked when Hillary made the "basket of deplorable" comment? Where is that same outrage now.


Because that was deeply personal attack against roughly half of all American citizens. Complete opposite of a widely accepted general belief about some countries.

Instead of asking that question, ask where was the outrage was when Obama openly called Libya an equal term? Disgusting and racist Obama, right?

I want a President that isn't afraid to bluntly raise an important point about who we accept into this country. Trump gained respect with his America-first thinking, unless you're an anti-American globalist that is.

Trump raised no point about who we let into this country. He made a racist comment with no factual backing. End of story. He has no honor or integrity or intelligence. Trump is a brazen compromised loudmouth with no understanding for how this country works. Those that cheer him on will be left wondering where their money and honor went.
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seb146
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:44 am

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Remember when the right was outraged and shocked when Hillary made the "basket of deplorable" comment? Where is that same outrage now.


Because that was deeply personal attack against roughly half of all American citizens. Complete opposite of a widely accepted general belief about some countries.

Instead of asking that question, ask where was the outrage was when Obama openly called Libya an equal term? Disgusting and racist Obama, right?

I want a President that isn't afraid to bluntly raise an important point about who we accept into this country. Trump gained respect with his America-first thinking, unless you're an anti-American globalist that is.


In what context did Obama say that? It is not a "widely accepted general belief about some countries" that they are s*itholes. Have you been to Detroit or Cleveland? The homeless camps (seniors, veterans, and children are living in those camps) in Portland, Seattle or San Francisco? One could then say that the United States is a s*ithole.

I get the whole "give Americans jobs immigrants are now doing" and putting America first. Just like Obama did. And GWB. And Clinton. And GHWB. And Reagan. And Carter. And Ford.

See where I am going with this? There are ways to put America first without pi*sing off the whole world and making our country sound like a-holes.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:52 am

We can just take down the Statue of Liberty, and return to sender, because we're not into that anymore.
Or maybe China, or Saudi Arabia would like to have it, to show the rest of the UN what great countries they are, when it comes to taking in huddled masses...
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notaxonrotax
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:04 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Statue of Liberty.


Heck, that thing is technically an immigrant!
Should be returned to sender!


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jetero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:52 am

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Remember when the right was outraged and shocked when Hillary made the "basket of deplorable" comment? Where is that same outrage now.


Because that was deeply personal attack against roughly half of all American citizens. Complete opposite of a widely accepted general belief about some countries.


Hey, Hawkeye, it’s probably just as “widely accepted” that half of Americans are “deplorable” as you cite than Trump’s conception of countries as “sh*tholes.”

Just because Fox News or the voice in your head tells you Bozo’s view is “widely accepted” doesn’t mean it’s true, Iowa.

[quote=“MSPNWA”]Instead of asking that question, ask where was the outrage was when Obama openly called Libya an equal term? Disgusting and racist Obama, right?[/quote]

Do tell, buddy. I know at the end of the day in your mind you’ve probably been such a champion for human rights your entire life (I.e. you’re anti-abortion), so that must’ve been super rough on you.

Oh but wait, then you say this ... I’m so confused.

[quote=“MSPNWA”]I want a President that isn't afraid to bluntly raise an important point about who we accept into this country.[/quote]

Well you must be pretty disappointed because your hero unafraid President said it behind closed doors and denies he said it to begin with.

[quote=“MSPNWA”]Trump gained respect with his America-first thinking, unless you're an anti-American globalist that is.[/quote]

Trump gained respect?! Good Lord.

I know you’re a religious wingnut MSP, go back and reread your beloved Bible. He’s the definition of the antichrist. He may be even worse than Delta ...

I pray for you, brother, to worship so blindly such an nakedly unholy man.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:09 am

I live in the United States of America. I live in a SHITHOLE. I live in a country in which a great populace of this country thinks it is fine to denigrate entire continents and nations because of their economic status and/or color of their people. The SHITHOLE is the United States of America. That's what the SHITHOLE is.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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787Driver
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:06 am

salttee wrote:
787Driver wrote:
all I’m doing is stating the obvious.
You're doing more than that here; your offering false equivalencies in order to dismiss Trump's heinous behavior:
787Driver wrote:
Many people are on their moral high horse here. Let’s be honest, we all have said or thought something that would be inappropriate in a larger group of people. And yes his comment was very inappropriate considering he is the POTUS, but I’m willing to bet that many families have used similar expressions around the dinner table when discussing politics, etc.

And you have a very superior and condescending attitude.
787Driver wrote:
If you can’t accept the unbiased facts, then there’s no way we can have a constructive conversation. Sorry.

Which is unsupported IMO.


Obviously we can’t have an honest debate about the challenges facing Western countries when immigrants from third world countries arrive to our part of the world. So I’m not going to reply specifically to what you wrote. Goodbye.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:22 am

MSPNWA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Remember when the right was outraged and shocked when Hillary made the "basket of deplorable" comment? Where is that same outrage now.


Because that was deeply personal attack against roughly half of all American citizens. Complete opposite of a widely accepted general belief about some countries.

Oh you poor wittle snowflakes. Did she hurt your delicate feewings by cawling it what it is? She was 100% correct and trump supporters prove to the world every day what racist backwards garbage they are. Because of course it's not countries immigrating to the US--it's people. And trumpanzees hate non white people more than they hate pressing one fur english. No one is dumb enough to believe "he meant countries, not people" other than his knuckle dragging supporters. Of course the guy surrounded by and propelled into office by white supremacists meant 'get rid of the brown folk asap.'

787Driver wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
787Driver wrote:
Many people are on their moral high horse here. Let’s be honest, we all have said or thought something that would be inappropriate in a larger group of people. And yes his comment was very inappropriate considering he is the POTUS, but I’m willing to bet that many families have used similar expressions around the dinner table when discussing politics, etc.

Oh give me a break. 99% of people have the decorum and wherewithal to moderate their speech like a goddam human being, unlike this brain dead Neanderthal that dropped out of his mother’s sh!thole.


Agreed that he shouldn’t have said that especially since he is the POTUS as I already stated. This is the issue we should be discussing here.

But I’d be very certain that you at some point in your life thought or said something that would be inappropriate or racist to others. If not, well then you are a much better human being than 99.9% of the rest of us mortals.

I don’t know about you but I think most people have never categorized all black nations as shitholes. And certainly not with the regularity and reliability of a Swiss watch, never mind all the other insanely bigoted nonsense on a weekly basis. I still think a solid majority of the country are vastly better human beings than trump supporters, but trump lowers the bar every day so that's not saying much.

787Driver wrote:
salttee wrote:
787Driver wrote:
all I’m doing is stating the obvious.
You're doing more than that here; your offering false equivalencies in order to dismiss Trump's heinous behavior:
787Driver wrote:
Many people are on their moral high horse here. Let’s be honest, we all have said or thought something that would be inappropriate in a larger group of people. And yes his comment was very inappropriate considering he is the POTUS, but I’m willing to bet that many families have used similar expressions around the dinner table when discussing politics, etc.

And you have a very superior and condescending attitude.
787Driver wrote:
If you can’t accept the unbiased facts, then there’s no way we can have a constructive conversation. Sorry.

Which is unsupported IMO.


Obviously we can’t have an honest debate about the challenges facing Western countries when immigrants from third world countries arrive to our part of the world. So I’m not going to reply specifically to what you wrote. Goodbye.

There’s no honest debate to be had when the opening salvo is “black people from sh!tholes are bad immigrants”. There’s no point in debating.
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mad99
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:38 am

Shit hole countries is offensive


Correct term is turd world
 
salttee
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:39 am

Notice:
From here on, that crapheap which used to be known as Trump Tower will be known as "Shithole Tower"
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:15 pm

seahawk wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The sad part is that he does have a point, when it comes to development aid. If the recipients of the help do not really strive to improve their country and are settling in the position of needing outside help, the local situation will never improve. Too bad that he has killed any debate about that with his racist and hate fuelled words.


The people don't always have a choice when they get Aid. I mean with the Haiti earthquake I am sure corrupt government officials made off with some or most of it.

Needless to say whether you think it or not you never say it. This just gets us that much closer to speaker Pelosi.


Sure, if you are hit by such a natural disaster you need help and this needs to be given even if corruption thrives on it. But if the local people never work against corruption the country will not get rid of it.


What marked me after the earthquake was how religious people were. Thanking god for having only lost half their family and a couple of limbs.

I noticed they were religious in the evangelical way.

I wonder where that came from ?

I also remember scientology being very active there.

I guess they got the right kind of help.
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sierrakilo44
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:01 pm

Aesma wrote:
I wonder where that came from ?


Look at the history of Haiti. Invaded by US Marines for US interests (admitted by Smedley Butler in his “War is a Racket” Speech). Under the thumb of a US supported dictator (Duvalier). You could say it’s status as a sh*thole was been helped a long way by the country to its near north.

No wonder Haiti has a horrible healthcare system, the highest per capita prison population that uses torture, high levels of homelessness, a low ranked education system, crumbling infrastructure, more money spent on war than social services, militarised police etc. What a sh*thole country!

Oh wait....
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:24 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
No wonder Haiti has a horrible healthcare system, the highest per capita prison population that uses torture, high levels of homelessness, a low ranked education system, crumbling infrastructure, more money spent on war than social services, militarised police etc. What a sh*thole country!

Oh wait....


Minus the healthcare system, you could be talking about USA. I'm assuming that's your point.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
LMP737
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from other countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:09 pm

787Driver wrote:
LMP737 wrote:



I understand your anger, but come on, all I’m doing is stating the obvious. Africa has the potential to be the wealthiest continent on earth. So many resources and all types of climate for growing just about anything. And yes things are improving for sure, but there’s a long way to go. If you can’t accept the unbiased facts, then there’s no way we can have a constructive conversation. Sorry.

And of course you’ll find many people from those countries that will contribute to the economy, but again, facts are simply that historical data shows that people from certain regions are much harder to integrate - even second and third generation - than people from other places.

..


You don't seem to be getting the point I was making. All you are doing is repeating things that have been said in the past about certain immigrant groups. Ever hear of the Chinese Exclusion Act? Because if you listen to what Trump said his attitude is not that much different.

All these people here in the USA seem to be ignorant of the fact that unless their ancestors came here over the Bering Sea land bridge or in chains they are the result of immigration. And people already here were probably saying why should we let in people from these s*ithole countries in.
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StarAC17
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:19 pm

787Driver wrote:
Many people are on their moral high horse here. Let’s be honest, we all have said or thought something that would be inappropriate in a larger group of people. And yes his comment was very inappropriate considering he is the POTUS, but I’m willing to bet that many families have used similar expressions around the dinner table when discussing politics, etc.


This might have been defend-able if he said I want a merit based system where the best an brightest come to the United States. However the fact that he used s*ithole where he should know better. Trump clearly doesn't or simply doesn't care, I bet the latter.

However the fact that he specifically said he wanted immigrants from a predominately white country (Norway) where a good portion of the population could be classified as Aryan and attack countries with predominantly blacks and Hispanics is racism either intentionally or unintentionally. Trump might be too stupid to know better or did it knowing what the result would be. Again I believe Trump knew exactly what he was saying and knew what the reaction would be.

That is disgusting.
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NeBaNi
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:16 pm

Revelation wrote:
NoTime wrote:
Take the average immigrant from Norway and compare him/her to the average immigrant from Haiti (or whatever "s--thole" country you want to use). Which is more skilled? Which is less likely to require assistance in the form of welfare or other programs?

Personally, I'd rather take the average world citizen and compare them to the average Trump voter / FAUX NEWS viewer, and finding the world citizens superior, would gladly import all of them and export all the Trumpistas.

And the rest of the world says "No thanks" to the Trumpistas :lol:
 
afcjets
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:16 am

seb146 wrote:
Have you been to Detroit or Cleveland? The homeless camps (seniors, veterans, and children are living in those camps) in Portland, Seattle or San Francisco? One could then say that the United States is a s*ithole.


Maybe we just have the wrong Democrats running these cities ;)
 
jetero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:35 am

afcjets wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Have you been to Detroit or Cleveland? The homeless camps (seniors, veterans, and children are living in those camps) in Portland, Seattle or San Francisco? One could then say that the United States is a s*ithole.


Maybe we just have the wrong Democrats running these cities ;)


Yeah because veterans' issues are, at the end of the day, mayoral issues. Absolutely nothing to do with the federal government.

I don't doubt you're that dumb.

And I also don't doubt that you don't live in a city.

You just live as a leech on the outsides.
 
afcjets
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:25 am

jetero wrote:
afcjets wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Have you been to Detroit or Cleveland? The homeless camps (seniors, veterans, and children are living in those camps) in Portland, Seattle or San Francisco? One could then say that the United States is a s*ithole.


Maybe we just have the wrong Democrats running these cities ;)


Yeah because veterans' issues are, at the end of the day, mayoral issues. Absolutely nothing to do with the federal government.


Just think what a paradise Detroit would be if our federal government didn't drop off all those veterans there!

:rotfl:
 
jetero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:39 am

afcjets wrote:
jetero wrote:
afcjets wrote:

Maybe we just have the wrong Democrats running these cities ;)


Yeah because veterans' issues are, at the end of the day, mayoral issues. Absolutely nothing to do with the federal government.


Just think what a paradise Detroit would be if our federal government didn't drop off all those veterans there!

:rotfl:


So basically afcjets, you're making fun of veterans while being righteous about them.

Where do you think the veterans came from? For such a fervent nationalist, do you not know anything about how the draft originally worked?
 
afcjets
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:19 am

jetero wrote:
afcjets wrote:
jetero wrote:

Yeah because veterans' issues are, at the end of the day, mayoral issues. Absolutely nothing to do with the federal government.


Just think what a paradise Detroit would be if our federal government didn't drop off all those veterans there!

:rotfl:


So basically afcjets, you're making fun of veterans while being righteous about them.



Even without the emoticon I was clearly being sarcastic.

jetero wrote:
I don't doubt you're that dumb.


But I guess you feel that way about them too.
 
seb146
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:32 am

afcjets wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Have you been to Detroit or Cleveland? The homeless camps (seniors, veterans, and children are living in those camps) in Portland, Seattle or San Francisco? One could then say that the United States is a s*ithole.


Maybe we just have the wrong Democrats running these cities ;)


Or the wrong Republicans running the state they are in.

At least the West Coast states are and have been trying to clean up the mess private corporations created that made veterans, seniors, children and Americans homeless. What has the Republican government in Ohio and Michigan done?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:28 pm

Route66 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:

Ever noticed that visa (non)requirements work on the very principle you have just described? All over the world.


Presumably Americans require Indian/Chinese/Brazilian visas because the US is a mess?

Besides, visa processes vet individuals as individuals. They don't work on the principle that every applicant from the country should be kept out. When visas are denied, they are usually denied for a reason (financial means etc) that isn't simply "you're from X country".


That is not true at all. A person applying for a visa into the US is very much ranked by country. That ranking is determined by the history of that country's previous US visa holders. If those previous visitors had a high delinquency, future applicants will have more difficulty. This seems to be common with other countries, a Colombian once told me it was near impossible for her to get a visa anywhere North, but she could easily travel anywhere South.

It is unfortunate the US continues to pay the price for European colonialism. Haiti and Africa being prime examples.


We can keep going in circles, but the simple point is that there is a difference between applying more stringent criteria to citizens of some countries than others on various grounds (e.g. national security, financial means etc), and declaring that all citizens of a country should be kept out because they happen to be from that country regardless of individual abilities/skills/circumstances.

The latter approach is guaranteed to blow up diplomatic relations in this day and age.
 
User avatar
bgm
Posts: 1717
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:57 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
No wonder Haiti has a horrible healthcare system, the highest per capita prison population that uses torture, high levels of homelessness, a low ranked education system, crumbling infrastructure, more money spent on war than social services, militarised police etc. What a sh*thole country!

Oh wait....


Minus the healthcare system, you could be talking about USA. I'm assuming that's your point.


The US healthcare system IS awful. One of the most bureaucratic and inefficient, not to mention outrageously overpriced system I've ever had the misfortune to experience.
When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat. - George Carlin
 
salttee
Posts: 2489
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:23 pm

bgm wrote:
The US healthcare system IS awful. One of the most bureaucratic and inefficient, not to mention outrageously overpriced system I've ever had the misfortune to experience.

Are you speaking of the AMA created and ABA administered actual healthcare system, or the fudged up way of paying for it?

Please don't wiggle out by saying "both".
 
Route66
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:47 pm

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:31 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Route66 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Presumably Americans require Indian/Chinese/Brazilian visas because the US is a mess?

Besides, visa processes vet individuals as individuals. They don't work on the principle that every applicant from the country should be kept out. When visas are denied, they are usually denied for a reason (financial means etc) that isn't simply "you're from X country".


That is not true at all. A person applying for a visa into the US is very much ranked by country. That ranking is determined by the history of that country's previous US visa holders. If those previous visitors had a high delinquency, future applicants will have more difficulty. This seems to be common with other countries, a Colombian once told me it was near impossible for her to get a visa anywhere North, but she could easily travel anywhere South.

It is unfortunate the US continues to pay the price for European colonialism. Haiti and Africa being prime examples.


We can keep going in circles, but the simple point is that there is a difference between applying more stringent criteria to citizens of some countries than others on various grounds (e.g. national security, financial means etc), and declaring that all citizens of a country should be kept out because they happen to be from that country regardless of individual abilities/skills/circumstances.

The latter approach is guaranteed to blow up diplomatic relations in this day and age.


So are we to accept them all as refugees, changing the face and culture of our own society? This is a discussion that is long coming and it must happen - without the overbearing and conversation-stopping cry of RACISM!. We have every right to limit immigration as we see fit.

It is unfortunate the US continues to pay the price for European colonialism.
 
salttee
Posts: 2489
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:34 pm

Route66 wrote:
It is unfortunate the US continues to pay the price for European colonialism.

We've joined in wherever we could.
 
User avatar
bgm
Posts: 1717
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:42 pm

salttee wrote:
bgm wrote:
The US healthcare system IS awful. One of the most bureaucratic and inefficient, not to mention outrageously overpriced system I've ever had the misfortune to experience.

Are you speaking of the AMA created and ABA administered actual healthcare system, or the fudged up way of paying for it?

Please don't wiggle out by saying "both".


I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean. I had absolutely no issue with the actual healthcare I received, it was the huge clusterf**k of paperwork/incorrect billing/deductions/copay back-and-forth for months until it was sorted. Nobody really knew what the numbers were as they kept getting changed, and different things kept being re-billed under different categories for different amounts. The hospital would bill my insurance company for whatever amounts, and some of the bills didn't get paid correctly by my insurance company and I would then get final demand letters for huge sums of money. Just a complete mess, involved way too many hours on the phone, letters back and forth, and a whole lot of unnecessary stress. From my conversations with other people, my experience is not uncommon.
When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat. - George Carlin
 
Route66
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:47 pm

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:46 pm

casinterest wrote:
Trump raised no point about who we let into this country.


Actually, yes he did, but you have to listen to more than just the headline-grabbing quotes. He is all about MERIT based immigration, just like much of the rest of the Western world. Are you saying they have it all wrong?

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Look at the history of Haiti. Invaded by US Marines for US interests (admitted by Smedley Butler in his “War is a Racket” Speech). Under the thumb of a US supported dictator (Duvalier). You could say it’s status as a sh*thole was been helped a long way by the country to its near north.
.


Oh please. Haiti history did not begin in the 1960's. As if hundreds of years of European colonialism and slavery had no effect....
 
salttee
Posts: 2489
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:54 pm

The American healthcare system does deliver competent care for people who are insured or otherwise have the means to pay. But the American healthcare system is hugely inefficent, in that many procedures cost 10X what they would cost elsewhere. Couple that with the fact that a substantial part of healthcare costs here are for unnecessary diagnostic tests just to defend against lawsuits.

IMO therein lies the root of the problem, everything else follows. To me, diddling with Obamacare / Trumpcare or any other way to pay for the care is a fools errand. No matter what you do, the end result is either too costly or it doesn't provide even adequate care.
 
apodino
Posts: 3297
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Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:59 pm

seb146 wrote:
afcjets wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Have you been to Detroit or Cleveland? The homeless camps (seniors, veterans, and children are living in those camps) in Portland, Seattle or San Francisco? One could then say that the United States is a s*ithole.


Maybe we just have the wrong Democrats running these cities ;)


Or the wrong Republicans running the state they are in.

At least the West Coast states are and have been trying to clean up the mess private corporations created that made veterans, seniors, children and Americans homeless. What has the Republican government in Ohio and Michigan done?

Its not as simple as you make it sound. There is a lot more to the homeless situation on the west coast than private corporations. Housing in some of these cities has skyrocketed, and outdated zoning laws and burecratic messes caused by leaders in these cities have made it hard to construct new affordable housing, while foreign investors scoop up all the property and prices soar even more, leaving the middle class unable to afford housing in these places. Its gotten so bad that business are fleeing a lot of these areas in Seattle and Portland, and Silicon Valley is having a hard time attracting talent because of the high cost of living in the bay area, and the ability of workers to find better opportunities in more affordable and lower tax areas. (Think Texas).

As for Michigan, Michigan lately has become much more business friendly, its creating jobs, and is prospering again. Detroit's downtown is being revitalized. Much the same thing is happening in Ohio as well, and Wisconsin, which has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country under Scott Walker.
 
Route66
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:47 pm

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:04 pm

salttee wrote:
Route66 wrote:
It is unfortunate the US continues to pay the price for European colonialism.

We've joined in wherever we could.


Some truth to that. Look what we just did to Libya, THE best managed country in a continent of shitholes, all at Europe's behest.
 
apodino
Posts: 3297
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:10 pm

salttee wrote:
The American healthcare system does deliver competent care for people who are insured or otherwise have the means to pay. But the American healthcare system is hugely inefficent, in that many procedures cost 10X what they would cost elsewhere. Couple that with the fact that a substantial part of healthcare costs here are for unnecessary diagnostic tests just to defend against lawsuits.

IMO therein lies the root of the problem, everything else follows. To me, diddling with Obamacare / Trumpcare or any other way to pay for the care is a fools errand. No matter what you do, the end result is either too costly or it doesn't provide even adequate care.

Exactly. You hit the nail on the head with the first paragraph. No matter what you do to insurance whether it be Obamacare, or something along those lines, it doesn't address the problem you mentioned. Tort reform is touted as a way to address the lawsuit part you mention, but democrats have always opposed it. The big question is why do so many procedures in this country cost so much? And how do you address that. If you address that, that would have caused insurance premiums to go down, and Obamacare wouldn't have been deemed necessary. (Even though in my opinion it made things worse, and it has been a nightmare for me personally and has caused me more problems than ever).

I think healthcare in other countries needs to be looked at to find out how they all do it. The NHS in UK seems to be having major issues at the moment, with many patients being denied surgery they need just because the system is overwhelmed and other people are more urgent. In a lot of other countries, taxes that fund heathcare and the systems themselves are more locally run than they are nationally. Which is why I don't get why this needs to be done at a national level here? Why not do it at a local level? If you can get single payer at the local level, that also covers seniors, then the local systems can take over, and Medicare can come off the federal budget, which would be a huge deficit reducer. I think its possible. We need the will to do it. Sadly is, its a great talking point for progressives, but their party representatives are influenced heavily by insurance companies who donate to their campaigns. Its why Jerry Brown killed it in California and its also why Dianne Feinstein lobbied against it in California.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:37 pm

Route66 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Route66 wrote:

That is not true at all. A person applying for a visa into the US is very much ranked by country. That ranking is determined by the history of that country's previous US visa holders. If those previous visitors had a high delinquency, future applicants will have more difficulty. This seems to be common with other countries, a Colombian once told me it was near impossible for her to get a visa anywhere North, but she could easily travel anywhere South.

It is unfortunate the US continues to pay the price for European colonialism. Haiti and Africa being prime examples.


We can keep going in circles, but the simple point is that there is a difference between applying more stringent criteria to citizens of some countries than others on various grounds (e.g. national security, financial means etc), and declaring that all citizens of a country should be kept out because they happen to be from that country regardless of individual abilities/skills/circumstances.

The latter approach is guaranteed to blow up diplomatic relations in this day and age.


So are we to accept them all as refugees, changing the face and culture of our own society? This is a discussion that is long coming and it must happen - without the overbearing and conversation-stopping cry of RACISM!. We have every right to limit immigration as we see fit.

It is unfortunate the US continues to pay the price for European colonialism.


- I'm not interested in your battles with fictional refugee strawman. Every country can control the number of refugees it's willing to take in. Many countries do. Nobody is talking about the US taking in all the refugees in the world.

- "Changing the face and culture of our own society". What an intriguing statement. It's almost as if the face and culture of society doesn't/wouldn't change in the absence of immigration. The "face and culture" of 17th century American society was apparently the same as 18th century American society, which apparently was the same as 20th century American society. It's the last/latest wave of immigrants who are changing it all, no doubt. Evidently previous immigrants changed nothing, "face" or "culture" or otherwise. Is that a correct inhterpretation?

- What does one mean by "face" anyway? Prima facie, you appear to be referring to appearance. Skin colour perhaps? Either which way, yes, you are free to limit immigration as you see fit. No question. Even on the basis of appearance.

That said, it is beyond question that if you want to stop Individuals because of racial traits, such as ...errr...their skin colour and it's potential to change the "face" of society, then that is racism. This is not meant to be an "overbearing and conversation-stopping cry of racism". This is simply a statement of fact.

- The long and short of it is that for some of us, nations are ethnic-centric (appearance etc) while for some of us, nations are built on shared values and ideas. I personally don't find that race or "face" automatically precludes any individual from subscribing to the shared values and ideas of an adopted nation. Ideology and/or more extreme/right-wing/conservative strands of religion might - but those aren't racial (or facial) characteristics and can be vetted easily enough.

I subscribe to the latter notion of nationhood. Which one do you subscribe to?
 
salttee
Posts: 2489
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:38 pm

apodino wrote:
Tort reform is touted as a way to address the lawsuit part you mention, but democrats have always opposed it.
Huh? Are BSing yourself or are you trying to BS me? It's the lawyers who don't want to address that. That part of our current healthcare system works just fine for them.
apodino wrote:
The big question is why do so many procedures in this country cost so much? And how do you address that. If you address that, that would have caused insurance premiums to go down, and Obamacare wouldn't have been deemed necessary.
Stick with "how do you address that" and the rest will take care of itself. We'll still need a national health care plan or the insurance companies will just step in and eat up any cost savings. And even with a rational HC system, it still needs to be paid for, and we can't let everyone who is perfectly healthy and under 45 skip out from supporting the system or we're back to unaffordable healthcare for a large segment of the population.
apodino wrote:
I think healthcare in other countries needs to be looked at to find out how they all do it. The NHS in UK seems to be having major issues at the moment, with many patients being denied surgery they need just because the system is overwhelmed and other people are more urgent.
The number of people in Britain who would trade systems with us is minuscule.
Triage occurs no matter the system unless you would want to fund double the HC resources from what are really necessary.
apodino wrote:
Which is why I don't get why this needs to be done at a national level here? Why not do it at a local level?
You're just getting back to re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic again. Give it up.
 
salttee
Posts: 2489
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:41 pm

Route66 wrote:
Some truth to that. Look what we just did to Libya
Look at what we're currently (this week) doing in Syria. Building our own private mercenary army - against the wishes of the powers in the region.
 
apodino
Posts: 3297
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:15 pm

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
Tort reform is touted as a way to address the lawsuit part you mention, but democrats have always opposed it.
Huh? Are BSing yourself or are you trying to BS me? It's the lawyers who don't want to address that. That part of our current healthcare system works just fine for them.

I am not BSing anyone. The issue is you addressed frivolous lawsuits. For years the republicans have tried to address this issue with Tort Reform as I said before. The Democrats, (a good majority of whom are themselves Lawyers and get plenty of campaign donations from lawyers as well), have always opposed it. John Morgan, who is a well known ambulance chaser in Florida, has even run ads against addressing this in Florida, and he is a well known democratic supporter.

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
The big question is why do so many procedures in this country cost so much? And how do you address that. If you address that, that would have caused insurance premiums to go down, and Obamacare wouldn't have been deemed necessary.
Stick with "how do you address that" and the rest will take care of itself. We'll still need a national health care plan or the insurance companies will just step in and eat up any cost savings. And even with a rational HC system, it still needs to be paid for, and we can't let everyone who is perfectly healthy and under 45 skip out from supporting the system or we're back to unaffordable healthcare for a large segment of the population.

I don't think you realized what I said. Single payer will work if its passed on a state level. All you need to do at a national level is pass a law requiring each state to come up with their own. I am sorry, but it is impossible to manage a healthcare system with 300 million people in it, and given the lobbyists in Washington I don't want their fingerprints on my healthcare. Let the states do it. The problem is, the insurance companies are such big donors to both parties they wont allow it to take hold there. And one other issue that needs to be addressed with a single payer. What do you do for all the workers of these insurance companies who would be out of a job. My wife worked for Aetna. She was one of the few non minorities in the building. If you put these companies out, you put a lot of people out of work including Blacks and Latinos who make up the democratic base.

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
I think healthcare in other countries needs to be looked at to find out how they all do it. The NHS in UK seems to be having major issues at the moment, with many patients being denied surgery they need just because the system is overwhelmed and other people are more urgent.
The number of people in Britain who would trade systems with us is minuscule.
Triage occurs no matter the system unless you would want to fund double the HC resources from what are really necessary.

I don't know if there is any way to really know the answer to what you are saying. I know people who have been in the Canadian system and ours and prefer our system and vice versa. I cant put a number on it.

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
Which is why I don't get why this needs to be done at a national level here? Why not do it at a local level?
You're just getting back to re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic again. Give it up.
No I am not. My goal is to get the best healthcare for every citizen. Given the fact that there are 66,000 registered lobbyists in washington, and given the outsized influence of campaign donations, and the pay to play attitude in DC, I dont believe they are capable of managing a national single payer healthcare system in this country given the amount of people needing coverage, and the fact that such a system would become so political it would hurt the very people it intends to help. I do believe the states are in a much better position to do this. This is actually the canadian model I am advocating for.
 
salttee
Posts: 2489
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:48 pm

apodino wrote:
I am not BSing anyone. The issue is you addressed frivolous lawsuits. For years the republicans have tried to address this issue with Tort Reform as I said before. The Democrats, (a good majority of whom are themselves Lawyers and get plenty of campaign donations from lawyers as well), have always opposed it. John Morgan, who is a well known ambulance chaser in Florida, has even run ads against addressing this in Florida, and he is a well known democratic supporter.
It sounds like you're doing a snowjob on yourself.
"a good majority of (Democrats) are themselves Lawyers" LOL almost every lawyer I've ever known outside of criminal law has been a pubbie
"John Morgan" out of 320 million people, you've identified one person!
apodino wrote:
I don't think you realized what I said. Single payer will work if its passed on a state level. All you need to do at a national level is pass a law requiring each state to come up with their own. I am sorry, but it is impossible to manage a healthcare system with 300 million people in it, and given the lobbyists in Washington I don't want their fingerprints on my healthcare. Let the states do it. The problem is, the insurance companies are such big donors to both parties they wont allow it to take hold there. And one other issue that needs to be addressed with a single payer. What do you do for all the workers of these insurance companies who would be out of a job. My wife worked for Aetna. She was one of the few non minorities in the building. If you put these companies out, you put a lot of people out of work including Blacks and Latinos who make up the democratic base.
Your "state level argument is just Libertarian nonsense (unless you're really machiavellian and this is a divide and conquer ruse), in any case your "state level" argument extends far and wide I'm sure - it is a separate subject from the healthcare discussion.

And are you really suggesting that we use insurance companies to create unnecessary make work to provide welfare for the middle class? If old Joe McCarthy was still alive I'd tip him off about you, we'd have you before a HUAC committee in no time.
apodino wrote:
I know people who have been in the Canadian system and ours and prefer our system and vice versa. I cant put a number on it.
People who are financially independent tend to prefer the American type system (without government mandated care) most every other thinking person prefers a safety net.

apodino wrote:
My goal is to get the best healthcare for every citizen. Given the fact that there are 66,000 registered lobbyists in washington, and given the outsized influence of campaign donations, and the pay to play attitude in DC, I dont believe they are capable of managing a national single payer healthcare system in this country given the amount of people needing coverage, and the fact that such a system would become so political it would hurt the very people it intends to help. I do believe the states are in a much better position to do this. This is actually the canadian model I am advocating for.
The lobbyist system is a separate subject as is your states rights agenda. You're muddying the issue by dragging those issues into the healthcare discussion.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 6956
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Trump : Why do we let people in from (expletive) countries ?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:05 pm

Route66 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Trump raised no point about who we let into this country.


Actually, yes he did, but you have to listen to more than just the headline-grabbing quotes. He is all about MERIT based immigration, just like much of the rest of the Western world. Are you saying they have it all wrong?

sierrakilo44 wrote:
Look at the history of Haiti. Invaded by US Marines for US interests (admitted by Smedley Butler in his “War is a Racket” Speech). Under the thumb of a US supported dictator (Duvalier). You could say it’s status as a sh*thole was been helped a long way by the country to its near north.
.


Oh please. Haiti history did not begin in the 1960's. As if hundreds of years of European colonialism and slavery had no effect....



This thread exists because Trump's definition of merit unfortunately involves a strong deal of racism. That is not the kind of "merit" based system we need.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.

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