dtw2hyd
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US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:34 am

Didn't see this one coming. Trump slaps 30% on solar panels. Bad idea in my IMHO. US manufacturers will never be able to meet the demand, and other countries will benefit cheap imports from China.

Trump also slaps 20% on imported Washing Machines mainly from South Korea and Mexico. Well Trump could have forced South Koreans to offer 5 year parts and labor warranty on all their appliances sold here. That crap ain't worth.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/22/news/ec ... index.html
 
salttee
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:49 am

The solar panel tariff has been hanging like a damascus sword recently. There have been a number of editorials discussing this.
American manufacturing will meet the demand, but unfortunately the demand will shrink somewhat as the result of higher prices.

The worst negative here my be the slacking off of the solar industry.
 
c933103
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:57 am

Still better than South America countries?
 
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Moose135
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:06 am

salttee wrote:
The worst negative here my be the slacking off of the solar industry.

Yeah, but it will bring back all those coal mining jobs...
:eek:
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WarRI1
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:19 am

Moose135 wrote:
salttee wrote:
The worst negative here my be the slacking off of the solar industry.

Yeah, but it will bring back all those coal mining jobs...
:eek:


Well said, and of course spur more oil drilling in coastal waters, except of course Florida where they have a special coast and of course millions of potential Republican votes. What high standards these Republicans hold themselves to. Simply amazing.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
tommy1808
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:54 am

salttee wrote:
but unfortunately the demand will shrink somewhat as the result of higher prices.


And since installing the panels is the labor extensive part, not the manufacturing, demand just has to soften a little bit to go net negative on jobs,

Trump just took american jobs away.

best regards
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Dutchy
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:40 am

Another step in the wrong direction......
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Aesma
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:44 am

I don't know for the rest but China has dumped solar panels for sure. I'm not sure slapping a tariff like that will work though, but we'll see.

Manufacturing solar panels you need very expensive plants, and very expensive (not made in China) machines. It shouldn't be that much cheaper to make in China.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:12 pm

Just your typical free market advocates at work...except when it's something they don't like.
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B0pp0
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:22 pm

Think of all the Republican voters who have had their livelihoods destroyed on a whim because of one regressive man.

Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton, the Denied 45th President of the United States, would not have pulled this garbage. Unlike that orange organ bag she has a brain, a heart, and a soul
 
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Francoflier
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:22 pm

Now let's wait and see how China retaliates... No one ever wins in a trade war.
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zkojq
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:26 pm

Image
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... energy-yet

tommy1808 wrote:
salttee wrote:
but unfortunately the demand will shrink somewhat as the result of higher prices.


And since installing the panels is the labor extensive part, not the manufacturing, demand just has to soften a little bit to go net negative on jobs,

Trump just took american jobs away.


Indeed and quite a few of them too. But hey, who needs jobs anyway?
The Suniva-SolarWorld request for protection was opposed by much of the domestic US solar industry.

Tariffs that make solar panels more expensive, and thus discourage their use, will cause 23,000 installers, engineers and project managers to lose their jobs this year as billions of dollars in planned investment evaporates, according to the Solar Energy Industries Association.

Up to one third of the 260,000 Americans currently employed in the industry are at risk because of the tariffs, the group says.

"It boggles my mind that this president - any president, really - would voluntarily choose to damage one of the fastest-growing segments of our economy," said Tony Clifford, chief development officer for Standard Solar in Rockville, Maryland.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news ... d=11980662


Aesma wrote:
I don't know for the rest but China has dumped solar panels for sure. I'm not sure slapping a tariff like that will work though, but we'll see.

If the Chinese government wishes to subsidise my electricity usage then they can go right ahead!

Francoflier wrote:
Now let's wait and see how China retaliates... No one ever wins in a trade war.

Time for China Inc to cancel some Boeing orders as punishment me thinks. :stirthepot:
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dtw2hyd
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:28 pm

Aesma wrote:
I don't know for the rest but China has dumped solar panels for sure. I'm not sure slapping a tariff like that will work though, but we'll see.

Manufacturing solar panels you need very expensive plants, and very expensive (not made in China) machines. It shouldn't be that much cheaper to make in China.


Sure they did and they cut prices in half, but we also tried to subsidize companies like Solyndra, but they couldn't perform.

Looking at massive solar farms China and India are building, I am worried that we will be left behind.
 
dmg626
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:17 pm

Tesla/Panasonic ramping up a brand new facility in Buffalo that was built for Solar City by the state of NY. Working at minimal capacity, sure to start increasing now. Also Making the solar roof shingles there, next step in technology leaving the old panels in the dust
 
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Francoflier
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:47 pm

Solar tiles and shingles are a neat idea, but they do not have anywhere near the same efficiency as a proper solar panel.

Due to their cost and the relatively larger surface you need to extract enough power, they are mostly destined for suburban/countryside residents of developed countries.
They are of no use in or near urban areas and obviously not compatible with industrial use.

No doubt their efficiency will increase, but they will not replace regular solar panels in most cases.
Plus, once the technology matures, they will likely be produced cheaper in Asia too.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
WIederling
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:22 pm

dmg626 wrote:
Also Making the solar roof shingles there, next step in technology leaving the old panels in the dust


A rather unrealistic expectation.
Just from embedding in the roof and resultant higher cell temperature you'll significantly lose efficiency.
Next downside is more connectors than fleas a dog could carry.

solar thermal. That could make sense as embedded roofing substitute.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:28 pm

zkojq wrote:
https://i.imgur.com/stXgZkM.png


Now where is the difference?
( sourcing is place of manufacture. But who owns the production site? )

Who sells Chinese panels from a Chinese owned plant in the US ( with profits going back to China?)
and who sells other foreign manufacture cells?
Good chance the production site is US owned ( profits to some freshly tax exempted US rich kid )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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kasimir
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:31 pm

c933103 wrote:
Still better than South America countries?

einsteinboricua wrote:
Just your typical free market advocates at work...except when it's something they don't like.


Exactly my thought, this is socialist politics that especially South American countries have introduced during the leadership of extremely left-wing socialist (borderline communist) governments.

I know Brazil very well, and looking at how their protectionism has turned out for the benefit of their people and economy of Brazil, I am quite fearful for the US... In Brazil nothing has gotten any better, the only difference is that foreign/international products cost at least twice as much! Don't believe me, go to the Brazilian Apple site and check what an iphone or macbook cost there, convert it to US Dollars and you will be shocked... Import tariffs (incl. all the customs fees and taxes) are between 80 and 100% in Brazil.
iPhone X in the US for US$999
iPhone X in Brazil for BRL 6999 or US$ 2164 (at current exchange rates)

Consumer goods and products will just get more expensive for US consumers, because those Chinese solar panels plus the import tariffs will still be cheaper then US panels, but now you essentially pay a 20% tax on top of them.

It's funny how republicans who are the first to start screaming around "this is socialism", that they use it themselves to serve their interests...

The best way to "make america great again", is to heavily invest in education and infrastructure and just be better than the South Koreans or Chinese! Than you don't have to compete on pricing and can still be very profitable and employ many people... That's exactly what Apple is doing and they don't have to worry about cheaper smartphones!
The German car manufacturers also do the same thing and go by the premise "The product needs to be so much better as it is expensive".

You will never be able to compete just on pricing when you want to beat the Asian competition, you need to be better than them, otherwise your business is over...

Unfortunately, the Trump voters will not understand those economic principles, but in the end complain about the consequences (higher prices, inflation etc...)
 
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casinterest
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:38 pm

This is unfortunate, but it helps Trump in a few ways. It shows his Fossil Fuel( Coal , Oil, Natural Gas) that he is committed to helping them out. It shows his constituents that he is tough on offshoring. At the end of the day, it hurts the US, as solar will slow down on it's uptake.


Now will it hurt a lot? I am not sure. The panels themselves are only a piece of a solar installation. The labor is usually a large portion of the installation cost, and that will not change. However we will see what happens over time.
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Route66
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:31 pm

Aesma wrote:
I don't know for the rest but China has dumped solar panels for sure. I'm not sure slapping a tariff like that will work though, but we'll see.

Manufacturing solar panels you need very expensive plants, and very expensive (not made in China) machines. It shouldn't be that much cheaper to make in China.


yes, they are dumping even now in Saudi Arabia and UAE, where Chinese companies have just made bids at under $0.02/kWh over 25 years. Incredible prices and only possible with good financing, something which a Chinese government-owned company has no problem. https://electrek.co/2017/10/08/how-is-s ... -analysis/

zkojq wrote:


That is misleading. Outside of South Korea and Japan, the vast majority of those other Asian manufacturing plants are owned by Chinese companies, most all owned or propped up by the Chinese government. They can just as easily build those factories closer to their market. The graph does not quite jive with the government stats either. https://www.eia.gov/renewable/annual/so ... table7.pdf

I suspect it wouldn't matter what Trump did, he be pilloried. Usually, the complaints I hear are that he isn't doing enough, or anything, to protect US market share in the alternative energy sector. Here he is luring more alternative energy manufacturing back to the country and he's accused of killing solar in America. Meanwhile, many analysts have different views, as the Bloomberg article explained.

What I wish "they" would do is insist that all those solar systems subsidized by taxpayers and electricity users be US-sourced.
 
tommy1808
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:49 pm

Route66 wrote:
Saudi Arabia and UAE, where Chinese companies have just made bids at under $0.02/kWh over 25 years. Incredible prices and only possible with good financing, something which a Chinese government-owned company has no problem.


Neither the Abu Dhabi Future Energy Company nor EDF Energies Nouvelles are Chinese.

Best regards
Thomas
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Route66
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:08 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Route66 wrote:
Saudi Arabia and UAE, where Chinese companies have just made bids at under $0.02/kWh over 25 years. Incredible prices and only possible with good financing, something which a Chinese government-owned company has no problem.


Neither the Abu Dhabi Future Energy Company nor EDF Energies Nouvelles are Chinese.

Best regards
Thomas


You are correct and that was a poor example, just happened to be reading it that moment.

Here are the worlds top ten panel manufacturers..
Image
https://www.pv-tech.org/editors-blog/to ... rs-in-2017

9/10 are Chinese owned with one S Korean (Canada Solar is mostly name only). This does not happen in China without state support. You will also never see a outside company win a Chinese solar contract - which in turn compounds the strength of their manufacturers. It is hard to understand why we should in turn give them free market access.

it should be noted, those factories set up in Malaysia, Vietnam, etc, most all Chinese owned, were done so to circumvent existing European and US import restrictions. In fact, the Obama administration imposed a 30% tariff on Chinese panels in 2012. The partisan hacks trashing Trump are going to have a hard time explaining that. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chin ... 9U20120517
 
bhill
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:33 pm

This will only benefit the oil barons....VERY few panels are manufactured here and the raw materials are mostly sourced from...China. I understand that Tesla has a plant here using more rare materials, but this will prolly knock the US industry of this sector out.Most of the folks employed in this industry here, about 20,000 I have heard are mostly for sales and installation...

VERY dumb idea...
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kasimir
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:34 pm

Route66 wrote:
9/10 are Chinese owned with one S Korean (Canada Solar is mostly name only). This does not happen in China without state support. You will also never see a outside company win a Chinese solar contract - which in turn compounds the strength of their manufacturers. It is hard to understand why we should in turn give them free market access.

it should be noted, those factories set up in Malaysia, Vietnam, etc, most all Chinese owned, were done so to circumvent existing European and US import restrictions. In fact, the Obama administration imposed a 30% tariff on Chinese panels in 2012. The partisan hacks trashing Trump are going to have a hard time explaining that. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chin ... 9U20120517


Oh come on, no matter who or which country sets any import tariffs or penalties... It's wrong no matter what and I strongly oppose this, since protectionism in the end will only harm the consumer in their respective country!

Since you are criticizing Chinese financing habits, please... the US should be very quiet when it comes to this regard ;)
 
bhill
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:35 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Now let's wait and see how China retaliates... No one ever wins in a trade war.


They already have...on the raw materials...like silicates....to manufacture the panels..
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cpd
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:13 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Didn't see this one coming. Trump slaps 30% on solar panels. Bad idea in my IMHO. US manufacturers will never be able to meet the demand, and other countries will benefit cheap imports from China.

Trump also slaps 20% on imported Washing Machines mainly from South Korea and Mexico. Well Trump could have forced South Koreans to offer 5 year parts and labor warranty on all their appliances sold here. That crap ain't worth.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/01/22/news/ec ... index.html


It's a clever policy to slow down the up-take of solar energy. It's about bringing back demand for coal as an energy source. If solar panels are cheap, then people will buy lots of them. If they are more costly, people won't. It's a clever distortion of the market.

I already have solar power and have done for quite a number of years already - mine are from the number 2 provider on the graphic posted earlier.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:59 pm

cpd wrote:
...
I already have solar power and have done for quite a number of years already - mine are from the number 2 provider on the graphic posted earlier.


I was hoping residential rooftop wind turbine technology will mature as wind/solar hybrid is more for SE Michigan. There were a lot of wind turbine startups in West Michigan.

Is/Was $1/Watt still the sweet spot for just panels? That is 100W panel around $100 not including controllers and installation.
 
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moo
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:12 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
cpd wrote:
...
I already have solar power and have done for quite a number of years already - mine are from the number 2 provider on the graphic posted earlier.


I was hoping residential rooftop wind turbine technology will mature as wind/solar hybrid is more for SE Michigan. There were a lot of wind turbine startups in West Michigan.

Is/Was $1/Watt still the sweet spot for just panels? That is 100W panel around $100 not including controllers and installation.


At what point does wind turbine density start to effect the economics? Too many wind turbines in a cluster and you kill the wind energy, leading to a drop off in generating ability down wind or even a dead zone - something you don't need to worry about with residential solar, as typically they aren't installed in such a way to block light to other installations.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:17 am

AFAIK, a similar tax on imported solar panels was already introduced...

...in 2012.

Anyway, it makes US customers pay more for less efficient panels.


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flyingturtle
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:19 am

And this is pretty damning:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 2fc5c5f93b

" Germany has five times as much solar power as the U.S. — despite Alaska levels of sun "


David
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cpd
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:22 am

The problem with residential solar is if someone tries to get approval to build a taller building next to your home and that would block light to your solar system. In that case, you'd have valid grounds to object to the development. Even so, it's not nice having a very tall building in a residential area.

In Australia there has been a huge take up of residential solar panels because of excessively high power prices from traditional power distributors. Businesses have also followed suit and many of them now have large solar panel installations on the roofs of their factories for the same reason. People used to get higher feed-in prices for the power they generated, but this has since been cut so that we don't get a fair/reasonable price anymore for the power we generate (versus what it would cost us to use power from the grid).

Now people are adopting big battery systems to avoid sending any excess solar power onto the grid. They save the excess in batteries to use at a later time (eg at night).
Last edited by cpd on Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aesma
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:23 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Neither the Abu Dhabi Future Energy Company nor EDF Energies Nouvelles are Chinese.

Best regards
Thomas


I haven't researched this but the panels are very probably Chinese.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:34 am

moo wrote:
At what point does wind turbine density start to effect the economics? Too many wind turbines in a cluster and you kill the wind energy, leading to a drop off in generating ability down wind or even a dead zone - something you don't need to worry about with residential solar, as typically they aren't installed in such a way to block light to other installations.


My plan is not to go off the grid, actually, use Solar/Wind to grid connect without batteries to get credit for whatever it feeds.
With few months of snowy winter, solar is a daytime non-winter solution. Wind speed picks up in winter. Idea is to use wind power to compensate. Being in a suburb, wind energy is not an ideal solution either. Cities have a lot of restrictions.

BTW, what happens to US WTO complaint against India, if the US is imposing tariffs?
 
NoTime
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:36 am

salttee wrote:
The solar panel tariff has been hanging like a damascus sword recently...


I can't quite figure this out... do you mean a damocles sword?

flyingturtle wrote:
AFAIK, a similar tax on imported solar panels was already introduced...

...in 2012.


Yes, Obama placed tariffs on them, twice. But, let's not let a silly thing like FACTS get in the way of a good Trump bashing.
 
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cpd
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:39 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
My plan is not to go off the grid, actually, use Solar/Wind to grid connect without batteries to get credit for whatever it feeds.
With few months of snowy winter, solar is a daytime non-winter solution. Wind speed picks up in winter. Idea is to use wind power to compensate. Being in a suburb, wind energy is not an ideal solution either. Cities have a lot of restrictions.

BTW, what happens to US WTO complaint against India, if the US is imposing tariffs?


See my previous reply, a lot of people here have gone partially off-grid with the use of battery systems (Tesla Powerwall, etc) to avoid sending any excess solar power onto the grid due to the unfair feed in prices.

So they use whatever solar power they generate first, save excess to the battery system and then when needed use the saved battery power and then, when/if that runs out, only then use power from the grid.
 
salttee
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:34 am

NoTime wrote:
I can't quite figure this out... do you mean a damocles sword?

:boggled: Ya got me.
 
WIederling
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:31 am

moo wrote:
Too many wind turbines in a cluster and you kill the wind energy, leading to a drop off in generating ability down wind or even a dead zone


You start to have other issues ( like the neighbors coming with heavy demolition gear )
before your harvesting gets reduced from upwind installations.

Are you looking at multi MW sizes or more towards dozen or less kW sized "house hold turbines"?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Aesma
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:55 am

Usually you can't paint your fence the wrong color, so installing a 30 feet tall wind turbine is not really an option.

Here in France industrial scale turbines are faced with the same problem, NIMBY miles around fight against them. Companies manage to install them after 7 years on average.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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moo
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:21 am

Anyone else get the feeling that rare earth mineral exports to the US for solar panel production are about to get significantly more expensive, considering that China is the biggest exporter for most of those minerals right now?
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:11 pm

AFAIK, China does not export a lot of raw rare earth materials. Countries have to buy chips or even finished circuits. One of the reasons, from Apple to Cisco have no option other than producing hardware in China.

There is a huge demand for solar panels all over the world. I doubt China will have trouble selling them cheap.
 
WIederling
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:24 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
AFAIK, China does not export a lot of raw rare earth materials. Countries have to buy chips or even finished circuits. One of the reasons, from Apple to Cisco have no option other than producing hardware in China.

There is a huge demand for solar panels all over the world. I doubt China will have trouble selling them cheap.


Actually no ( <microscopic ) rare earth content in semiconductors of any kind.

Tantalum you find in high density capacitors.
Rare Earth Super magnets, laser cores.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare-earth_element#List

Rare Earth are not limited to China. The US sits on quite enough for its own use.
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:28 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
One of the reasons, from Apple to Cisco have no option other than producing hardware in China.


Pretty much the only reason is that Apple to Cisco don´t want to pay prices that makes mining interesting somewhere else. ....

best regards
Thomas
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Route66
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:46 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
And this is pretty damning:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... 2fc5c5f93b

" Germany has five times as much solar power as the U.S. — despite Alaska levels of sun "


How Germany spends its money is its business (if only they'd pay for their own defense) but some might call that level of spending on solar panels at those latitudes not too smart.

B0pp0 wrote:
Think of all the Republican voters who have had their livelihoods destroyed on a whim because of one regressive man.


I don't think its fair to trash Obama like that, do you have ANY proof that solar energy stalled after he slapped the tariff on Chinese panels in 2012?


flyingturtle wrote:
AFAIK, a similar tax on imported solar panels was already introduced...

...in 2012.

Anyway, it makes US customers pay more for less efficient panels.


Yes, I mentioned that in another post two days that apparently disappeared somewhere. All Trump did was close the loophole from Obama's previous decree. In fact, he actually lessened Obama's decree by lowering the tariffs over a 4 year period - benefiting whom? After 2012, the Chinese established plants around Asia to avoid the Made in China stigma. It was just an evasion, as if Malaysia was suddenly some kind of solar panel champion. Ha.


dtw2hyd wrote:

My plan is not to go off the grid, actually, use Solar/Wind to grid connect without batteries to get credit for whatever it feeds.
With few months of snowy winter, solar is a daytime non-winter solution. Wind speed picks up in winter. Idea is to use wind power to compensate. Being in a suburb, wind energy is not an ideal solution either. Cities have a lot of restrictions.


If my neighbor installed a small horizontal axis wind turbine (HAWT) anywhere near my house in the city, I'd get the shotgun. The noise drives everybody nutz, and for long distances. A neighbor on some rural property had one that was irritating from 600'. I've had one myself, besides the noise and vibrations, it was difficult to maintain and it often needed it. Then there was the hail storm that broke the blades....it is somewhere in Central America now.

By far, a VAWT is the way to go in tight areas, Not quit as productive but much easier to live with, check them out. I built one of my own.

As for going off grid or not, it is now illegal to disconnect your service in many areas, (although they would if you didn't pay the bill) but you could still run independently and pay the monthly service fees. The big problem with grid-tie is that you can't use that solar power when the grid goes down.

cpd wrote:
It's a clever policy to slow down the up-take of solar energy. It's about bringing back demand for coal as an energy source. If solar panels are cheap, then people will buy lots of them. If they are more costly, people won't. It's a clever distortion of the market.

I already have solar power and have done for quite a number of years already - mine are from the number 2 provider on the graphic posted earlier.


Everybody knows that coal is not making any comeback. Just nonsense and devoid of reality in the US. I take it you don't live there? Solar is cheaper than coal right now and people generally prefer the cleaner air. If you want to harp about the continued increased use of coal, you need to look elsewhere, Germany and China come to mind.

ImageImage

This tariff is not going to any significant effect on anything but the cheap-sh*t panels. Good, consider it a consumer protection program, we won't see massive premature degredation so soon - at which point, we'd then be completely beholden to China for replacements. Yes, that's smart. All this tripe from Trump haters is once again misplaced. In FACT, he is actually lowering tariffs on Chinese panels over a 4 year period from previous levels.

I am curious though why it is so bad for the US to protect a domestic sector many believe to be important for the future, while the EU does the same things and nobody here cares one wit enough to talk about it. Look it up....

I think the bottom line from this angle, China trade needs to be treated in the same ways they treat others, for example, their foreign ownership rules.
Last edited by Route66 on Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7139
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:09 pm

Route66 wrote:
How Germany spends its money is its business (if only they'd pay for their own defense) but some might call that level of spending on solar panels at those latitudes not too smart.


Solar power has reached grid parity years ago, even with Alaska sun. Not buying enough PV is hence the stupid move.

Beat regards
Thomas
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Route66
Posts: 114
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:19 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Route66 wrote:
How Germany spends its money is its business (if only they'd pay for their own defense) but some might call that level of spending on solar panels at those latitudes not too smart.


Solar power has reached grid parity years ago, even with Alaska sun. Not buying enough PV is hence the stupid move.

Beat regards
Thomas


Germany pays the highest prcce electric rates in the world (or very near the top). There is a reason for that.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7139
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:25 pm

Route66 wrote:
Germany pays the highest prcce electric rates in the world (or very near the top). There is a reason for that.


Yup, there is: 12.8 minutes total and ~2.5 power outages per year and use point. Of course operating a 3rd world grid is a heck of a lot cheaper. You piss 150 billion USD in lost economic activity on those outages, we rather spend the money on our grid, thank you very much.

Route66 wrote:
I am curious though why it is so bad for the US to protect a domestic sector many believe to be important for the future, while the EU does the same things and nobody here cares one wit enough to talk about it. Look it up....


Good idea to look it up, there is no blanket tariff on Chinese solar panels in the EU, there is a tariff on panels below 56ct/Watt, which is the, checked by court, lowest price level that can sustain a factory. That Limit also slides down with the market trend.

EU tariffs are against dumping, US tariffs are against imports.

Best regards
Thomas
This signature is a safe place.
 
Route66
Posts: 114
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:46 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Route66 wrote:
Germany pays the highest prcce electric rates in the world (or very near the top). There is a reason for that.


Yup, there is: 12.8 minutes total and ~2.5 power outages per year and use point. Of course operating a 3rd world grid is a heck of a lot cheaper. You piss 150 billion USD in lost economic activity on those outages, we rather spend the money on our grid, thank you very much.

Route66 wrote:
I am curious though why it is so bad for the US to protect a domestic sector many believe to be important for the future, while the EU does the same things and nobody here cares one wit enough to talk about it. Look it up....


Good idea to look it up, there is no blanket tariff on Chinese solar panels in the EU, there is a tariff on panels below 56ct/Watt, which is the, checked by court, lowest price level that can sustain a factory. That Limit also slides down with the market trend.

EU tariffs are against dumping, US tariffs are against imports.

Best regards
Thomas


Yes and until last year, the EU had a 30% tariff as well. But restrictions are restrictions. Why do you think the EU sets those restrictions? To protect their own domestic industries? How awful. Why don't they know better and just become completely dependent on Chinese-government controlled energy source, the people who bought the market?

BTW, over decades, I never personally experienced a power outage in the US, have you?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7139
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:53 pm

Route66 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Route66 wrote:
Germany pays the highest prcce electric rates in the world (or very near the top). There is a reason for that.


Yup, there is: 12.8 minutes total and ~2.5 power outages per year and use point. Of course operating a 3rd world grid is a heck of a lot cheaper. You piss 150 billion USD in lost economic activity on those outages, we rather spend the money on our grid, thank you very much.

Route66 wrote:
I am curious though why it is so bad for the US to protect a domestic sector many believe to be important for the future, while the EU does the same things and nobody here cares one wit enough to talk about it. Look it up....


Good idea to look it up, there is no blanket tariff on Chinese solar panels in the EU, there is a tariff on panels below 56ct/Watt, which is the, checked by court, lowest price level that can sustain a factory. That Limit also slides down with the market trend.

EU tariffs are against dumping, US tariffs are against imports.

Best regards
Thomas


Yes and until last year, the EU had a 30% tariff as well. But restrictions are restrictions.


Yes, as explained above, on panels under a certain price point considered below production costs.

Why do you think the EU sets those restrictions?


To prevent dumping below manufacturing costs.

To protect their own domestic industries?


Given the insolvencies in that industry they would have done a terrible job accomplishing that goal.

How awful.


Exactly!
Sometimes incidently the right and the useful thing coincide.

Why don't they know better and just become completely dependent on Chinese-government controlled energy source, the people who bought the market?


You do realize that those panels, once in Germany, produce power regardless of what the Chinese government wants, right?
R&D wouldn't even stop if we had zero manufacturing and if China ever decided to flip the switch on exporting solar panels we'd have some 10 years or so to get mass production back. Should be sufficient.

We gladly sell manufacturing equipment to Chinese companies at a profit to have them subsidise our electricity.

BTW, over decades, I never personally experienced a power outage in the US, have you?


Given the on average 4 hours per year that the average US household has no power you did just get lucky.

And twice, both in DeWitt, MI, one time for maybe an hour, one time for a few minutes. Both mid August to early September, since that is when I usually go.
Given a total of ~3 month spend in the US over the year, that is pretty much smack on that average.

Best regards
Thomas
This signature is a safe place.
 
apodino
Posts: 3231
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:29 pm

 
tommy1808
Posts: 7139
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:14 pm

apodino wrote:
Interestingly enough, Al Gore of all people is defending trump on this.


He probably just has a good chunk of his own money in US solar companies, and this will serve him well. To protect US manufacturing you just need a minimum import price, to have US consumers subsidise company profits you need blanket tariffs like this.
If it is Chinese dumping prices, why are EU panels included? With our God aweful socialism and associated costs we should be more expensive than US companies.....

Best regards
Thomas
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