dtw2hyd
Topic Author
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:28 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
apodino wrote:
Interestingly enough, Al Gore of all people is defending trump on this.


He probably just has a good chunk of his own money in US solar companies, and this will serve him well. To protect US manufacturing you just need a minimum import price, to have US consumers subsidise company profits you need blanket tariffs like this.
If it is Chinese dumping prices, why are EU panels included? With our God aweful socialism and associated costs we should be more expensive than US companies.....

Best regards
Thomas


Based on Trump's comments to reporters yesterday, he is trying to save last two survivors.
 
tommy1808
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:06 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Based on Trump's comments to reporters yesterday, he is trying to save last two survivors.


.....having a look at his own stock portfolio would probably be interesting.

As said before, he could just put tariffs on panels below a certain price point. A blanket tariff is just a money transfer from consumer to those two factories owners at the expense of the 10s of thousends of people that install the panels. Lucky for Trump this will probably not mean people getting fired, but just new jobs not coming online, so that will be easy to spin away.

Solar panel production is one of the least labor intensive processes there is.....

best regards
Thomas
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dtw2hyd
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:29 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Solar panel production is one of the least labor intensive processes there is.....

best regards
Thomas


That is interesting. Why did Solyndra fail? Did they try some weird technology?
 
tommy1808
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:43 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Solar panel production is one of the least labor intensive processes there is.....

best regards
Thomas


That is interesting. Why did Solyndra fail? Did they try some weird technology?


Silicone got cheap, thin-film solar cells they´ve made stopped being competitive and they where banking on large scale installations, instead of focusing on the areas where their technology could shine. So, the had great technology, not anything weird, but they where aiming onto the same market as most others, that could offer more efficient, more expensive cells that needed less space and hence less expensive labor to install them. ...

And well, judging by this article they where also not really smart in terms of smart spending: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... pa-showers

best regards
Thomas
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Route66
Posts: 203
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:39 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Route66 wrote:
Yes and until last year, the EU had a 30% tariff as well. But restrictions are restrictions.


Yes, as explained above, on panels under a certain price point considered below production costs.


Didn't you mention previously that consumers would be hurt and that is the overriding factor? Maybe not you, but others who trash trump for what Obama and Europe did for years.
There is only one reason Europe still restricts solar imports - to protect European business interests and the long-term interests of Europe. Period. And there is nothing wrong with that. Now, why is it so egregious for Trump to do the same?

And since we already have a history of this sort of nationalistic protectionism, where is the PROOF that previous and current tariffs and restrictions destroyed the solar industry when enacted? Something more than proclamations from trade associations please...

tommy1808 wrote:
We gladly sell manufacturing equipment to Chinese companies at a profit to have them subsidise our electricity.


Haha, how long do you think that will last? Where did you get the idea that China is satisfied being your low-wage slave?

tommy1808 wrote:
You do realize that those panels, once in Germany, produce power regardless of what the Chinese government wants, right?


You realize those panels have a life span and will need to be replaced? Some much sooner than others? Many are already are and that Chinese company sourced panels are historically the worst in that regard?
With the same industrial give-away you and others are proposing the US allow, Germany and major parts of Europe would be dependent on Russia for gas and China for clean electricity. Fortunately for you, your leaders are not quite that spineless. I hope mine are not as well.
 
tommy1808
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:49 pm

Route66 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Route66 wrote:
Yes and until last year, the EU had a 30% tariff as well. But restrictions are restrictions.


Yes, as explained above, on panels under a certain price point considered below production costs.


Didn't you mention previously that consumers would be hurt and that is the overriding factor?


I do think it does hurt the consumer up and to the point where dumping occurs, I.e. sales below production cost. You knoe you can actually now get EU made panels at just these 56 ct? Competition ia good for the consumer, anti-dumping, but not anti-import, penalties keep competition at its max.

Maybe not you, but others who trash trump for what Obama and Europe did for years.


For the 3rd time, the EU does not have tariffs on imported solar panels, we have a minimum import price to prevent imports below manufactoring costs.

What you do is like me claiming the US has a 270% tariff on aircraft imports, when in fact that is only true for one aircraft considered to be sold below cost (and showing the same overreach at the expanse of the US consumer....)

There is only one reason Europe still restricts solar imports - to protect European business interests and the long-term interests of Europe. Period.


We just think longer term than you do. Due to market friendly policies our manufactors produce cheap enough to need to be banned from your market as well, because yours just truly lost their competitiveness due to protectionist anti-market, anti-consumer, anti-jobs, capital friendly policies.

And there is nothing wrong with that. Now, why is it so egregious for Trump to do the same?


Because they don't do the same.

And since we already have a history of this sort of nationalistic protectionism, where is the PROOF that previous and current tariffs and restrictions destroyed the solar industry when enacted? Something more than proclamations from trade associations please...


The simple fact that your solar industriy needs to be protected from ours in the socialist, super-business-unfriendly-it-will-wreck-the-economy-extensive-social-systems EU?

Haha, how long do you think that will last? Where did you get the idea that China is satisfied being your low-wage slave?


The moment they stop being cheaper the jobs are coming back all by itself. Seems to me like everybody should be looking forward to the day Chinese workers reach western wages.
Maybe your job is just shielded enough from global competition that you don't realize that Chinese workers being sick of being our low wage slaves is the least thing we have to worry about.

You realize those panels have a life span and will need to be replaced? Some much sooner than others? Many are already are and that Chinese company sourced panels are historically the worst in that regard? [/qoute]

They don't stop over night, well literally they do, but you get the point. Experiences with panels here is that they consistently outperform their datasheets regardless of country of origin. Some panels retain higher efficiency longer, but if the specs are met, you know what you get when you buy it.

With the same industrial give-away you and others are proposing the US allow, Germany and major parts of Europe would be dependent on Russia for gas and China for clean electricity. Fortunately for you, your leaders are not quite that spineless. I hope mine are not as well.


For the forth time, what the EU has is in no way equivalent to what the US does in any other respect but probably showing up in the same Google search.

Beat regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tommy1808
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:52 pm

Wrong button
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Route66
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:21 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
For the forth time, what the EU has is in no way equivalent to what the US does in any other respect but probably showing up in the same Google search.


For the second time, Europe has had various tariffs/duty schemes for years on Chinese panels, and in fact, followed the US lead on that subject. No matter how many times you deny it. And restrictions continue, no matter how you spin it. What the EU have effectively done now is allow your manufactures set the low limit price. It is a protectionist policy like it or not (and there is nothing wrong with it).

It began in 2013:
https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/eu- ... 28.article

The European Commission has introduced provisional anti-dumping duties on all imports of solar panels from China

The temporary tariffs have been introduced on solar panels after the European market was flooded by Chinese imports.

Chinese imports make up 80 per cent of the European solar panel market. In 2012, China’s excess capacity was almost double total EU demand.

‘Therefore, a phased approach will be followed with the duty set at 11.8 per cent until 6 August 2013.

‘From August on the duty will be set at the level of 47.6 per cent which is the level required to remove the harm caused by the dumping to the European industry’.



48%. My my.

So the question being deflected - what evidence of damage to the European solar power industry can you provide, based on the experience of those relatively harsh EU protectionist measures?


tommy1808 wrote:
EU tariffs are against dumping, US tariffs are against imports.


I think it has more to do with Chinese hegemony of a (supposed) critical industry. Is it not the same in Europe?

tommy1808 wrote:
Given the on average 4 hours per year that the average US household has no power you did just get lucky.


I don't know where you get that number but if you are going to portray it as a sign of US evilness, you need to provide a source. Sources I see say Germany has 6 hours while the US government says the US has 2-5hrs/yr, depending. Ouch, how many hurricanes does Germany see?

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=27892

And a comparison that ranks Germany and the US dead even in "quality", whatever that means, in 2017. But like I said, sources please....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/268 ... ty-supply/
 
Route66
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:36 pm

I was a bit shocked to see that Germany actually burnt more fossil fuels for electricity than the US. And uses more coal. Did you know that Tommy, I did not. It does go against common perceptions. I appreciate the opportunity to learn these things.

About 65% of utility-scale electricity generation in the United States was produced from fossil fuels (coal, natural gas, and petroleum), about 20% was from nuclear energy, and about 15% was from renewable energy sources in 2016... https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/ind ... ted_states


Germany -
Share of fossil energy 66.6% (2016)

Nuclear: 80 TWh (14.8%)
Brown coal: 134.9 TWh (24.9%)
Hard coal: 99.4 TWh (18.3%)
Natural gas: 46.4 TWh (8.6%)
Wind: 77.8 TWh (14.4%)
Solar: 37.5 TWh (6.9%)
Biomass: 47 TWh (8.7%)
Hydro: 19.1 TWh (3.5%)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrici ... rgien.de-2
 
tommy1808
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:57 am

Route66 wrote:
48%. My my.


for the last time: On panels below the minimum import price, i.e. only on those panels that are dumped on the market below cost.

Is that concept so difficult to compute?

So the question being deflected - what evidence of damage to the European solar power industry can you provide, based on the experience of those relatively harsh EU protectionist measures?


I shall proof what i never claimed? And those relatively harsh EU protectionist measures only exist in your head.

I think it has more to do with Chinese hegemony of a (supposed) critical industry. Is it not the same in Europe?


Since those relatively harsh EU protectionist measures are just your fantasy, that is irrelevant.

I don't know where you get that number but if you are going to portray it as a sign of US evilness, you need to provide a source. Sources I see say Germany has 6 hours while the US government says the US has 2-5hrs/yr, depending.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=27892


https://www.vde.com/de/presse/pressemitteilungen/63-15

Ouch, how many hurricanes does Germany see?


few, but since the numbers are w/o force majeure, i don´t see how that is relevant. We still put most power lines below ground, where a hurricane wouldn´t matter.....

And a comparison that ranks Germany and the US dead even in "quality", whatever that means, in 2017. But like I said, sources please....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/268 ... ty-supply/


Thank you for proving my point for me. I said we invest the money in a stable grid instead of low prices, you focus on low prices. Net result is the same.Only without the power failures.

http://www.offthegridnews.com/grid-thre ... ped-world/

uops...

best regards
Thomas
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WIederling
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:21 am

Route66 wrote:
You realize those panels have a life span and will need to be replaced? Some much sooner than others? Many are already are and that Chinese company sourced panels are historically the worst in that regard?


Do you have some information to back that up, please?
(Todays expected lifespan is 25 years.)

Obviously you will have lower expectable quality for those that are sold real cheap.
What do you expect. 20% cheaper in the target market is "half price" on the manufacturing side.
( For all things you buy: you tend to get quality equal to what the manufacturer is paid. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
Kiwirob
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:41 am

Route66 wrote:
I was a bit shocked to see that Germany actually burnt more fossil fuels for electricity than the US. And uses more coal. Did you know that Tommy, I did not. It does go against common perceptions. I appreciate the opportunity to learn these things.



Having driven through German coal mining country the environmental devastation is beyond anything that I have ever seen before. If the coal seam goes through a town, the town goes, there's quite a few old German villages which have been replaced with ugly new towns, thanks to Germany's need for coal.

This lovely 120 year old chruch in Immerath was torn down to make way for coal. A church had been on the same site since 1200

Image

It was replaced by this

Image

and this
Image
 
tommy1808
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:59 am

WIederling wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
This lovely 120 year old chruch in Immerath was torn down to make way for coal.
A church had been on the same site since 1200


So what.

We have more "nice old churches" back from Richard Cœur de Lion's times and beyond
than a big dog has room for fleas.


...and hardly anyone goes to Church anymore, so churches don´t want to maintain many churches either.

And the Land restoration requirements are extreme, from a environmental perspective you get a more sound area than it has been before.

If only the burning that stuff wasn´t that dirty ...

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
WIederling
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:00 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
This lovely 120 year old chruch in Immerath was torn down to make way for coal.
A church had been on the same site since 1200


So what.

We have more "nice old churches" back from Richard Cœur de Lion's times and beyond
than a big dog has room for fleas.
Ever thought about how expensive restoration and upkeep is?
( The Denkmalschutzbehörde here is going over board with what is deemed "must be preserved at all cost".
Good chance we are sitting in a full nation museum real soon now.
The whopper here is that "they" decide after a good breakfast
and you as owner have to pay for all that hassle.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 10201
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:19 pm

Yeah 120 yo churches are usually not that interesting, let alone those built after WW1. I still find this practice unpalatable but at least it affects flat lands.

Meanwhile in the US :

Image
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Route66
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:45 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Route66 wrote:
48%. My my.


for the last time: On panels below the minimum import price, i.e. only on those panels that are dumped on the market below cost.

Is that concept so difficult to compute?


What part of "ALL imports from China" did you not understand?

"The European Commission has introduced provisional anti-dumping duties on all imports of solar panels from China"

tommy1808 wrote:
Route66 wrote:
And a comparison that ranks Germany and the US dead even in "quality", whatever that means, in 2017. But like I said, sources please....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/268 ... ty-supply/



So you have no direct comparison. I have provided that, and you've failed to explain how US and Germany are ranked exactly even in electrical quality? You have not provided any direct evidence of much of anything in this conversation. Just lots of anti American bluster - and holier-than-thou German snobbery. and then, it turns out Germany is burning more fossil fuels than the evil ones across the Atlantic. How hypocritical and a waste of time. I'm out.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, the Chinese Communist Party is telling foreign comapnaies that they must give the Party control...

Command and control: China’s Communist Party extends reach into foreign companies


BEIJING — American and European companies involved in joint ventures with state-owned Chinese firms have been asked in recent months to give internal Communist Party cells an explicit role in decision-making, executives and business groups say.

It is, they say, a worrying demand that threatens to put politics before profits, and the interests of the party above all other considerations. It suggests that foreign companies are no longer exempt from President Xi Jinping's overarching vision of complete control.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/as ... c73de5081b

Maybe we should just cede all industries to The Party, that should go well, huh?
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:59 pm

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jinkosol ... 00479.html the largest supplier of panels just announced this.
 
Route66
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:18 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jinkosolar-signs-1-75-gw-105000479.html the largest supplier of panels just announced this.


This is the no-brainer result in today's marketplace. The labor costs of manufacturing are basically even around the world when productivity is factored in the equation. The next best place to save money is shipping, not only costs but the time factor involved. It costs plenty of money to have large assets sitting on ships for weeks. This is particularly important for larger items with short lifecyles, things can become obsolete waiting to go to market such as TVs and electronics.

Trump scores a win.
 
salttee
Posts: 2470
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:42 pm

Route66 wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jinkosolar-signs-1-75-gw-105000479.html the largest supplier of panels just announced this.


This is the no-brainer result in today's marketplace. The labor costs of manufacturing are basically even around the world when productivity is factored in the equation. The next best place to save money is shipping, not only costs but the time factor involved. It costs plenty of money to have large assets sitting on ships for weeks. This is particularly important for larger items with short lifecyles, things can become obsolete waiting to go to market such as TVs and electronics.

Trump scores a win.

And you pulled all that out of your belly button!
 
DLFREEBIRD
Posts: 896
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:38 pm

Route66 wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jinkosolar-signs-1-75-gw-105000479.html the largest supplier of panels just announced this.


This is the no-brainer result in today's marketplace. The labor costs of manufacturing are basically even around the world when productivity is factored in the equation. The next best place to save money is shipping, not only costs but the time factor involved. It costs plenty of money to have large assets sitting on ships for weeks. This is particularly important for larger items with short lifecyles, things can become obsolete waiting to go to market such as TVs and electronics.

Trump scores a win.


how is that a win? Did you ask yourself if a Chinese company can do it, why can't a American company? They will create jobs but they will send the profits back to China.
China is winning on the trading war simple because Trump want's to dismantle everything Obama did. Historian will look back at this moment and point to it as the turning point when China beat the U.S. It started when Trump withdrew from TPP https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/zombie-tpp-back
 
Route66
Posts: 203
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Re: US imposes new tariffs on imported solar panels

Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:16 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
how is that a win? Did you ask yourself if a Chinese company can do it, why can't a American company? They will create jobs but they will send the profits back to China.
China is winning on the trading war simple because Trump want's to dismantle everything Obama did. Historian will look back at this moment and point to it as the turning point when China beat the U.S. It started when Trump withdrew from TPP https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/zombie-tpp-back


The arguments to make Trump look bad just get dumber and dumber. If Trump does nothing, he'll be vilified for "not supporting green energy". Right? Come on, admit, you know it. So he takes steps to protect US manufacturing of a staple green energy product, and he is still vilified by the very same people. People who apparently have no problem with handing a key component of future energy production solely in the hands of one country bent on economic dominance. Brilliant.

Anybody reading this who falls in that catagory is not going to like what they see below, it is going to shake their faith in Trump-hate....

From last September...

Several foreign solar cell and module makers said they’re exploring options to avoid potential trade restrictions by opening new solar manufacturing facilities in the U.S. -- something President Trump would very likely want to see.

“It makes sense, right?” said Tom Zhao, managing director for global sales in BYD’s solar and energy storage division, in an interview last week at Solar Power International (SPI). “We follow Mr. Trump's requirement about 'Made in U.S.' Win the jobs back for the U.S. Because the demand is here, our customer is here, our friend is here."


https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles ... riff-looms

And the week after...
The day Trump signed the proclamation on new solar tariffs, Texas-based solar module manufacturer Mission Solar Energy announced that it’s ramping up production to meet 2018 demand. The company -- which had to lay off workers in early 2017 -- is also hiring 50 new employees to shift production line operations to a 24/7 schedule, stating that this is just “the first phase in the plan for production increase.”
..............
On January 11, California-based Solaria Corporation announced it had raised $23 million in growth funding from a syndicate of leading strategic and financial investors to expand its manufacturing capacity in the U.S. and eventually, around the world. The funding wasn’t explicitly tied to the tariff announcement, but the advantage of selling tariff-free panels couldn’t have hurt Solaria’s business case.
.....
.............
Oregon-based SolarWorld Americas said it is committed to ramping up production, however, and will finish hiring 200 workers by the end of the year. The company initiated manufacturing again last fall as the trade case advanced.

................
Other companies may also decide to do so. There have been several reports that a foreign solar manufacturer approached city officials in Jacksonville, Florida earlier this month about opening its first manufacturing and assembly plant in the U.S., seeking $54 million in tax incentives in exchange for creating 800 jobs. Jacksonville newspaper The Financial News & Daily Record uncovered hints that the company could be Shanghai-based Jinko Solar Holding Corp.; however, the company has yet to confirm.


BTW, as a point of order, this order is and always was in flux and adjustable. A bunch of countries are exempt and that list will probably change as time goes on.

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