WIederling
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:25 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Yes mental health is part of the problem.


Mental health is at the core.
misadjustments lead to bipolar behavior ( feeling angsty but also feeling too big for your britches.)
angsty feeling helpless and ineffective: ----------> gun hording
to overcome angstines project an all gonads image ----------> overly aggressive and unadjusted in reaction.

Then we have an extremely competitive society where losing can easily turn into "going into social free fall"
and a basic philosophy of "winning by any means". this directly leads to #metoo
( two ways: "offering sex for qualification overriding decision support"
spreading allegations as sabotaging a competitor is easier than outperforming a competitor )

Pretty unhealthy environment.
Last edited by WIederling on Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:30 pm

Slug71 wrote:

The 2A also ensures our right to self defense. It's pretty clear and not up for debate. Going to the range would be considered training.

Nuclear weapons would be a weapon of mass destruction. Therefore restricted and not covered under the 2A seeing as there was no bombs/explosives at the time.


So given that your self-defence is assured by geography, demography and vast military spending, is it still needed? What do you need protection from that the 2A provides but standing military doesn't?

You mean the 2A doesn't cover something because it wasn't invented at the time? Slippery slope, guns have changed a lot since then, and I'm pretty sure future technology wasn't under consideration when it was drafted. Did they mean miniguns and assault rifles? There's just no certainty, it's all open to interpretation. Explosives were invented, by the way. But there is no scope for debate, 'the right to bear arms shall not be infringed' should be absolute and final, if you're deciding what should and shouldn't be included under that then you have to ask where the line is drawn and why? Pretty clear that excessive gun ownership in the USA causes a very high number of casualties, and all for a threat that simply doesn't exist. Seems like a good enough reason to review whether some regulations should be brought in, if people are that squeamish about having to have guns regulated then frankly there's little hope for them, so we should just get back to the worthless thoughts and prayers.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:56 pm

WIederling wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Yes mental health is part of the problem.


Mental health is at the core.
misadjustments lead to bipolar behaviour ( feeling angsty but also feeling too big for your britches.)
angsty feeling helpless and ineffective: ----------> gun hording
to overcome angstines project an all gonads image ----------> overly aggressive and unadjusted in reaction.

Then we have an extremely competitive society where loosing can easily turn into "going into social free fall"
and a basic philosophy of "winning by any means". this directly leads to #metoo
( two ways: "offering sex for qualification overriding decission support"
spreading allegations as sabotaging a competitor is easier than outperforming a competitior )

Pretty unhealthy environment.


It is at the core. And it seriously needs to be addressed.
As for gun hoarding, to most it's a hobby.

The world is an unhealthy environment at the moment.

MrHMSH wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

The 2A also ensures our right to self defense. It's pretty clear and not up for debate. Going to the range would be considered training.

Nuclear weapons would be a weapon of mass destruction. Therefore restricted and not covered under the 2A seeing as there was no bombs/explosives at the time.


So given that your self-defence is assured by geography, demography and vast military spending, is it still needed? What do you need protection from that the 2A provides but standing military doesn't?

You mean the 2A doesn't cover something because it wasn't invented at the time? Slippery slope, guns have changed a lot since then, and I'm pretty sure future technology wasn't under consideration when it was drafted. Did they mean miniguns and assault rifles? There's just no certainty, it's all open to interpretation. Explosives were invented, by the way. But there is no scope for debate, 'the right to bear arms shall not be infringed' should be absolute and final, if you're deciding what should and shouldn't be included under that then you have to ask where the line is drawn and why? Pretty clear that excessive gun ownership in the USA causes a very high number of casualties, and all for a threat that simply doesn't exist. Seems like a good enough reason to review whether some regulations should be brought in, if people are that squeamish about having to have guns regulated then frankly there's little hope for them, so we should just get back to the worthless thoughts and prayers.


Self-defense from criminals. We have the right to protect ourselves and our families from harm.

It should be absolute and final. And yes that would include miniguns and assault rifles.
The US does not have a very high number of casualties once you once you start separating the statistics. Well any murder is too high. Period. But 2/3rds of gun deaths are suicide. There is absolutely no indication or proof that those people would not have taken their lives if they did not have access to a gun. There were 15500 homicides by firearm last year. 1000 of those were in 2 cities(NYC and Chicago) alone. I'm all for decreasing MURDER in general. But you can't impose laws that make law-abiding citizens criminals while criminals just continue to step around or break the laws. Contrary to popular belief, we do have background checks. Even at gun shows. Criminals do not buy their weapons legally. They are not ever going to go through a background check. Not saying there is no need for background checks. But it's law abiding citizens, most gun owners, that follow those laws.
Last edited by Slug71 on Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:57 pm

Slug71 wrote:
The 2A also ensures our right to self defense. It's pretty clear and not up for debate.

Of course it is up for debate, it always is and always has been. Your statement "It's pretty clear" highlights that it is up for debate because at best it is just "pretty clear" and not "clear and concise", not "clearly stated".

What keeps the NRA supporters etc. up at night and makes them as rabid as they are to any change in how it is viewed, is the absolute fact that it is not clear and the only reason we/they have what we have now is due to a court's interpretation of the amendment. That can (and will at some point - how we don't know) be changed by another court and other judges.

The Second Amendment is constantly up for debate and being tested in court.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:27 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Self-defense from criminals. We have the right to protect ourselves and our families from harm.


Is that what was intended by the constitution? Is protecting your family from criminals really 'necessary to the security of a free State'? Seems to be a very generous interpretation of the 2A.

It should be absolute and final. And yes that would include miniguns and assault rifles.


And nuclear weapons, strategic bombers, tanks etc, naturally. However I'm not sure it's legally possible to, in which case you should be advocating the US government make very destructive weapons available to any Tom, Dick and Harry who wants them, and remember, since 'the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed', there should be no limits and no regulation. If that's not the case, then why not?

The US does not have a very high number of casualties once you once you start separating the statistics.


Far, far higher than similarly-developed countries with tighter gun regulations, however.

Well any murder is too high. Period. But 2/3rds of gun deaths are suicide. There is absolutely no indication or proof that those people would not have taken their lives if they did not have access to a gun.


It is easier to kill yourself with a gun than just about any method otherwise available. And just because the majority of gun deaths are suicide it doesn't change the fact that there are far too many murders and far too little is done to prevent it. and again, murdering people with guns is a lot easier than with most weapons readily available to people.

There were 15500 homicides by firearm last year. 1000 of those were in 2 cities(NYC and Chicago) alone. I'm all for decreasing MURDER in general. But you can't impose laws that make law-abiding citizens criminals while criminals just continue to step around or break the laws. Contrary to popular belief, we do have background checks. Even at gun shows. Criminals do not buy their weapons legally. They are not ever going to go through a background check. Not saying there is no need for background checks. But it's law abiding citizens, most gun owners, that follow those laws.


So then how come in countries with tighter regulations, there are still far fewer shootings and murders? It's not like these countries are any nicer, and there are still criminals there. If it didn't work then the numbers would be somewhat similar. But they are not even close. I think it's not a great excuse to not introduce tighter regulations just because criminals don't follow them, the idea is that you should put effort into stopping criminals, and law-abiding people will have no issues whatsoever.

Background checks? That is regulation. Why is the line for regulation drawn there? I thought the right was 'the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed'. If that is what the constitution says, there should be no regulation whatsoever. Clearly there must be cases where the rights are infringed as there is some regulation, so I ask again, where is the line drawn, and why?
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:54 pm

Slug71 wrote:
There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. U.S. population 324,059,091 as of Wednesday, June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year.:

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Do the math you say; er.... I suggest you try again.

The number you are looking for is .....0.01%, but no worries - you were only out by a factor of 10,000.

Anybody could make a teensy weensy little mistake like that. :rotfl:

Slug71 wrote:
I didn't write it. Regardless, It's still very low.

Try again; you did write it... here #65

I may agree that you borrowed the text from someone else, but I cannot find it anywhere else in this thread, and you have failed to properly attribute the quote.
By all means let us know which gun-crazed idiot was originally responsible so that I can give credit where credit is due. :box:

p.s. whoever it is, if they meet me on the range waving a gun in my direction and muttering "I just can't remember if I fired six shots, or seven" - I'm definitely going to believe them. :rotfl:
I promised myself I'd leave before the party turned ugly. I would quit at 1000 !
Here I am stuck at 994; each time I'm tempted to post, I find myself wondering who will even read it / what is the point?
Or maybe I've just got nothing left to say.
 
WIederling
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:54 pm

Slug71 wrote:
It should be absolute and final. And yes that would include miniguns and assault rifles.


As I said. It is a mental health issue.

What irks me is that this madness has major destructive implications on the rest of the world.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:24 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. U.S. population 324,059,091 as of Wednesday, June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year.:

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Do the math you say; er.... I suggest you try again.

The number you are looking for is .....0.01%, but no worries - you were only out by a factor of 10,000.

Anybody could make a teensy weensy little mistake like that. :rotfl:

Slug71 wrote:
I didn't write it. Regardless, It's still very low.

Try again; you did write it... here #65

I may agree that you borrowed the text from someone else, but I cannot find it anywhere else in this thread, and you have failed to properly attribute the quote.
By all means let us know which gun-crazed idiot was originally responsible so that I can give credit where credit is due. :box:

p.s. whoever it is, if they meet me on the range waving a gun in my direction and muttering "I just can't remember if I fired six shots, or seven" - I'm definitely going to believe them. :rotfl:


Copy and paste works wonders. Not sure who the original author is.
If you have people that do that at you range, you should find a different range.

WIederling wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
It should be absolute and final. And yes that would include miniguns and assault rifles.


As I said. It is a mental health issue.

What irks me is that this madness has major destructive implications on the rest of the world.


I don't see the relation the US has on the rest of the world in regards to this.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:33 pm

Slug71 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
And I'm also awaiting a response about what constitutes 'arms'. Surely a US citizen should be allowed to bear nuclear arms, and prohibition from doing so violates the 2nd amendment?

Nuclear weapons would be a weapon of mass destruction. Therefore restricted and not covered under the 2A seeing as there was no bombs/explosives at the time.

It looks like math isn't your only weak subject.....

there were no bombs/explosives at the time

Have you ever read "Last of the Mohicans", or perhaps viewed the film? This was set during the Seven Years' War, and should be right up your street because it features American militia and touches on the subject of the right to bear arms. I would have thought it was standard reading for any budding NRA member.


In the spring of 1757, Lieutenant Colonel George Monro became garrison commander of Fort William Henry, located on Lake George (New York) in the Province of New York. In early August, French Major General Louis-Joseph de Montcalm and 7,000 troops besieged the fort. On 2 August General Webb, who commanded the area from his base at Fort Edward, sent 200 regulars and 800 Massachusetts militia to reinforce the garrison at William Henry.

I'll skip the rest of the history lesson, but the long and the short of it is that the siege of Fort William Henry featured massive cannon, and mines, both requiring plenty of gunpowder, which you claim isn't covered by the Second Amendment.

Nuclear weapons would be a weapon of mass destruction

In the context of the Second Amendment (1791), a modern semi-automatic rifle would be considered a weapon of mass destruction.
Remember; the 2017 Las Vegas shooting resulted in the deaths of 58 people, but there were also 851 injured. Don't tell me that doesn't qualify as mass destruction!
I promised myself I'd leave before the party turned ugly. I would quit at 1000 !
Here I am stuck at 994; each time I'm tempted to post, I find myself wondering who will even read it / what is the point?
Or maybe I've just got nothing left to say.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:54 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
Is that what was intended by the constitution? Is protecting your family from criminals really 'necessary to the security of a free State'? Seems to be a very generous interpretation of the 2A.


Yes the second amendment covers that. There are a lot of writings that go along with the construction of the second amendment.

MrHMSH wrote:
And nuclear weapons, strategic bombers, tanks etc, naturally. However I'm not sure it's legally possible to, in which case you should be advocating the US government make very destructive weapons available to any Tom, Dick and Harry who wants them, and remember, since 'the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed', there should be no limits and no regulation. If that's not the case, then why not?


The argument of nuclear weapons, strategic bombers etc.. is just not realistic. No one could afford that even if it was legal.

MrHMSH wrote:
Far, far higher than similarly-developed countries with tighter gun regulations, however.

It is easier to kill yourself with a gun than just about any method otherwise available. And just because the majority of gun deaths are suicide it doesn't change the fact that there are far too many murders and far too little is done to prevent it. and again, murdering people with guns is a lot easier than with most weapons readily available to people.

So then how come in countries with tighter regulations, there are still far fewer shootings and murders? It's not like these countries are any nicer, and there are still criminals there. If it didn't work then the numbers would be somewhat similar. But they are not even close. I think it's not a great excuse to not introduce tighter regulations just because criminals don't follow them, the idea is that you should put effort into stopping criminals, and law-abiding people will have no issues whatsoever.


Those countries have FAR less guns than the US. Many variables also come into play like economic conditions, education etc. Including laws.
South Africa has FAR higher numbers than the US despite stricter laws and much lower population.

A lot of countries have less gun related deaths but higher stabbings and use of other weapons.
Yes a gun makes it easier. Doesn't mean it won't/can't be carried out in another manner.

Twice as many people die from overdose than all gun deaths combined. Five times more than just the homicide numbers.

Background checks? That is regulation. Why is the line for regulation drawn there? I thought the right was 'the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed'. If that is what the constitution says, there should be no regulation whatsoever. Clearly there must be cases where the rights are infringed as there is some regulation, so I ask again, where is the line drawn, and why?[/quote]

It is regulation. But how else do you prevent felons from obtaining weapons? The line is drawn when new laws will have no impact on reducing crime and infringe upon the rights of law-abiding citizens. What single new law would have prevented any mass shooting? When criminals walk despite breaking current laws, why would any new law be different? The current laws need to be enforced first.
 
seb146
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:03 pm

Slug71 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
It should be absolute and final. And yes that would include miniguns and assault rifles.


As I said. It is a mental health issue.

What irks me is that this madness has major destructive implications on the rest of the world.


I don't see the relation the US has on the rest of the world in regards to this.


When ever a non-White person kills people, right wing blame immediately jumps to the heritage of the shooter and how the United States needs to take a hard line stand against all of that nationality. That is the one that jumps to my mind.

Look at what happened after 9/11. Security was tightened at all airports. That was a good thing. But, Muslims from every nation were blamed. Many people in the United States blame either Afghanistan or Iraq for the attack. The hijackers were not from either country. A huge majority of Muslims just want to live, work, and worship in the United States peacefully. And, yet, you righties are going to split hairs and insist that Islam=terrorism because of that small minority of Muslims.

After the San Burnardino and Orlando shootings, you righties were wetting yourself with glee because those shooters claimed to be Muslim. Even though, as with Christianity, murder is forbidden by Islam. Because murder is illegal by their holy texts, that was enough to stop them, right?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:05 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
And I'm also awaiting a response about what constitutes 'arms'. Surely a US citizen should be allowed to bear nuclear arms, and prohibition from doing so violates the 2nd amendment?

Nuclear weapons would be a weapon of mass destruction. Therefore restricted and not covered under the 2A seeing as there was no bombs/explosives at the time.

It looks like math isn't your only weak subject.....

there were no bombs/explosives at the time

Have you ever read "Last of the Mohicans", or perhaps viewed the film? This was set during the Seven Years' War, and should be right up your street because it features American militia and touches on the subject of the right to bear arms. I would have thought it was standard reading for any budding NRA member.


In the spring of 1757, Lieutenant Colonel George Monro became garrison commander of Fort William Henry, located on Lake George (New York) in the Province of New York. In early August, French Major General Louis-Joseph de Montcalm and 7,000 troops besieged the fort. On 2 August General Webb, who commanded the area from his base at Fort Edward, sent 200 regulars and 800 Massachusetts militia to reinforce the garrison at William Henry.

I'll skip the rest of the history lesson, but the long and the short of it is that the siege of Fort William Henry featured massive cannon, and mines, both requiring plenty of gunpowder, which you claim isn't covered by the Second Amendment.

Nuclear weapons would be a weapon of mass destruction

In the context of the Second Amendment (1791), a modern semi-automatic rifle would be considered a weapon of mass destruction.
Remember; the 2017 Las Vegas shooting resulted in the deaths of 58 people, but there were also 851 injured. Don't tell me that doesn't qualify as mass destruction!


I am not a NRA member.
"Assault rifles" are not weapons of mass destruction. There is nothing a semi-auto rifle can do that a pistol can't.
Gun powder is absolutely covered under the 2A.
Cannons are not bombs/explosives. They worked just like a gun did.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:09 pm

seb146 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

As I said. It is a mental health issue.

What irks me is that this madness has major destructive implications on the rest of the world.


I don't see the relation the US has on the rest of the world in regards to this.


When ever a non-White person kills people, right wing blame immediately jumps to the heritage of the shooter and how the United States needs to take a hard line stand against all of that nationality. That is the one that jumps to my mind.

Look at what happened after 9/11. Security was tightened at all airports. That was a good thing. But, Muslims from every nation were blamed. Many people in the United States blame either Afghanistan or Iraq for the attack. The hijackers were not from either country. A huge majority of Muslims just want to live, work, and worship in the United States peacefully. And, yet, you righties are going to split hairs and insist that Islam=terrorism because of that small minority of Muslims.

After the San Burnardino and Orlando shootings, you righties were wetting yourself with glee because those shooters claimed to be Muslim. Even though, as with Christianity, murder is forbidden by Islam. Because murder is illegal by their holy texts, that was enough to stop them, right?


Have I brought race into this one single time? Have I made any such/of the above claims?
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:19 pm

Slug71 wrote:

Yes the second amendment covers that. There are a lot of writings that go along with the construction of the second amendment.


How convenient.

The argument of nuclear weapons, strategic bombers etc.. is just not realistic. No one could afford that even if it was legal.


There are billionaires, so yes people could afford it. A moot point anyway. If the constitution says 'SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED' then I expect that to mean 'shall not be infringed', not 'shall be infringed unless we think it needs to be'. Thus it should be legal to acquire these weapons if they can be afforded. Why is it not realistic?

Those countries have FAR less guns than the US. Many variables also come into play like economic conditions, education etc. Including laws.
South Africa has FAR higher numbers than the US despite stricter laws and much lower population.


South Africa is a less developed country, you would expect more crime there. Poor example. Comparatively developed countries all fare better, and yes, the US has more guns, but having more guns is not an excuse to not try and combat the problem, if anything it's more reason to do so. And let's face it, as a collective you do nigh-on nothing about those 'variables.

A lot of countries have less gun related deaths but higher stabbings and use of other weapons.
Yes a gun makes it easier. Doesn't mean it won't/can't be carried out in another manner.


Name and shame them, preferably with statistics. And while it's possible to carry out mass killings without guns, it's a lot rarer excluding the use of bombs. I bet I could name hundreds of mass shootings for any mass stabbing you can come up with, and even the numbers for using vehicles will be lower. Remember, you have 300 or more mass shootings every year. Take away guns and you shave off at least 200 of those, because it simply wouldn't be possible with a knife or even a car.

Twice as many people die from overdose than all gun deaths combined. Five times more than just the homicide numbers.


So? We are discussing guns. 'People die in other ways' is not a defence. Defend what you mean to defend. In any case, no one thinks we should sit back and do sweet FA about drug overdoses, or driving accidents and the like.

It is regulation. But how else do you prevent felons from obtaining weapons? The line is drawn when new laws will have no impact on reducing crime and infringe upon the rights of law-abiding citizens. What single new law would have prevented any mass shooting? When criminals walk despite breaking current laws, why would any new law be different? The current laws need to be enforced first.


A single new law might not prevent mass shootings, which is probably why people suggest different solutions at different levels that work together, tackling the background issues as well as combatting guns specifically. Introducing a scheme/law like in Australia would take a lot of guns out of circulation, take many guns away from possible/future killers and law-abiding owners merely have to put up with a little inconvenience. If that's too much of a price to pay for saving many lives then you really are beyond help. You sense that for some people it is too much, which is absolutely pathetic.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:38 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
The argument of nuclear weapons, strategic bombers etc.. is just not realistic. No one could afford that even if it was legal.


There are billionaires, so yes people could afford it. A moot point anyway. If the constitution says 'SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED' then I expect that to mean 'shall not be infringed', not 'shall be infringed unless we think it needs to be'. Thus it should be legal to acquire these weapons if they can be afforded. Why is it not realistic?[/quote]

Even a billionaire couldn't afford the maintenance or care. Why do you want people to own these things?

MrHMSH wrote:
South Africa is a less developed country, you would expect more crime there. Poor example. Comparatively developed countries all fare better, and yes, the US has more guns, but having more guns is not an excuse to not try and combat the problem, if anything it's more reason to do so. And let's face it, as a collective you do nigh-on nothing about those 'variables.


Not much less developed but its becoming more.
In order to combat any problem, you have to know/fix the cause. A gun doesn't make somebody a criminal.

MrHMSH wrote:
Name and shame them, preferably with statistics. And while it's possible to carry out mass killings without guns, it's a lot rarer excluding the use of bombs. I bet I could name hundreds of mass shootings for any mass stabbing you can come up with, and even the numbers for using vehicles will be lower. Remember, you have 300 or more mass shootings every year. Take away guns and you shave off at least 200 of those, because it simply wouldn't be possible with a knife or even a car.


The FBI recognizes a mass murder as having 4 or more victims. Entirely possible with a knife or car.
China has had several mass stabbings.

MrHMSH wrote:
A single new law might not prevent mass shootings, which is probably why people suggest different solutions at different levels that work together, tackling the background issues as well as combatting guns specifically. Introducing a scheme/law like in Australia would take a lot of guns out of circulation, take many guns away from possible/future killers and law-abiding owners merely have to put up with a little inconvenience. If that's too much of a price to pay for saving many lives then you really are beyond help. You sense that for some people it is too much, which is absolutely pathetic.


We have background checks. Enforcing our current laws and getting guns off the black market would help significantly.
I also support legalizing all drugs. Kill the black market and tax the addiction and use those taxes(including taxes from alcohol and cigarettes) to fund rehabilitation and mental health centers.
 
salttee
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:14 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Medical records are not shared in the NIKS system.

Where do these imaginary medical records come from?

Are individual psychologists going to be required to notify the government every time they diagnose a patient as having paranoia? Or a tendency towards violence? Or irrational behavior?

And who will decide what the degree of variation from "normal" is in each particular case? And what is an acceptable variation?
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:47 pm

salttee wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Medical records are not shared in the NIKS system.

Where do these imaginary medical records come from?

Are individual psychologists going to be required to notify the government every time they diagnose a patient as having paranoia? Or a tendency towards violence? Or irrational behavior?

And who will decide what the degree of variation from "normal" is in each particular case? And what is an acceptable variation?


I wasn't proposing any changes. I simply stated that medical records are not currently shared with the NIKS system.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:37 pm

JJJ wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

And Canada's population is 35 million. Germany 90 million. UK 70 million.
US 330 million!


Do you know what "rate" means?

Oooh boy he does not math gud. I think I’ve had more constructive conversations with pigeons.
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:43 pm

estorilm wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Mental health is not part of the gun problem, certainly far less than long arms are.


Yes mental health is part of the problem. A gun is just a tool. Most gun related deaths are suicide. To go out and do mass murders is a psychological problem. Long arms kill less people than knives or hammers.

A big part of the problem is also the lack of discipline these days.

EXACTLY.

Someone waking up in the morning and deciding "hey! - I'm gonna kill a bunch of people today" IS A PROBLEM.

Do you really care how he's going to do it? And even so, are you going to place the blame on said object? Car, bomb, aircraft, gun, knife, whatever.. Those objects will always exist, I don't see what's wrong with (trying to) address the actual core problem here!

Regardless - at the very least, mental health is certainly PART of the problem. :roll:

This has zero basis in reality. Tell us how many people are killed in the USA by bomb/aircraft/car as a weapon...and then how many are killed by a gun.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
salttee
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:46 pm

Slug71 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Medical records are not shared in the NIKS system.

Where do these imaginary medical records come from?

Are individual psychologists going to be required to notify the government every time they diagnose a patient as having paranoia? Or a tendency towards violence? Or irrational behavior?

And who will decide what the degree of variation from "normal" is in each particular case? And what is an acceptable variation?


I wasn't proposing any changes. I simply stated that medical records are not currently shared with the NIKS system.
Then please explain in a bit of detail how you think the process would work of determining whether or not a person is deemed sane enough to own a gun. Then, how that determination is transmitted to law enforcement.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:48 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

And Canada's population is 35 million. Germany 90 million. UK 70 million.
US 330 million!


Do you know what "rate" means?

Oooh boy he does not math gud. I think I’ve had more constructive conversations with pigeons.


Ahh yes, the personal insults again. Seems thats all you've done since you have nothing constructive to add.

salttee wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Where do these imaginary medical records come from?

Are individual psychologists going to be required to notify the government every time they diagnose a patient as having paranoia? Or a tendency towards violence? Or irrational behavior?

And who will decide what the degree of variation from "normal" is in each particular case? And what is an acceptable variation?


I wasn't proposing any changes. I simply stated that medical records are not currently shared with the NIKS system.
Then please explain in a bit of detail how you think the process would work of determining whether or not a person is deemed sane enough to own a gun. Then, how that determination is transmitted to law enforcement.


Like I've said, no new laws until the current laws are enforced.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:08 pm

Slug71 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
JJJ wrote:

Do you know what "rate" means?

Oooh boy he does not math gud. I think I’ve had more constructive conversations with pigeons.


Ahh yes, the personal insults again. Seems thats all you've done since you have nothing constructive to add.

No insults; just stating the facts
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:13 pm

Slug71 wrote:

Even a billionaire couldn't afford the maintenance or care. Why do you want people to own these things?


I don't want people to have them... but, you think the 2A is very important, so I'm questioning why it is only selectively applied. It doesn't matter that people couldn't afford it (yes they could), it should be legal, but it is not. Remember: it's very important: SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

Not much less developed but its becoming more.
In order to combat any problem, you have to know/fix the cause. A gun doesn't make somebody a criminal.


Still less developed, comparisons to countries with similar development are very unflattering.

No, having a gun doesn't make you a criminal, but it makes it much easier to be a murderer and mass murderer, as well as to commit suicide.

The FBI recognizes a mass murder as having 4 or more victims. Entirely possible with a knife or car.
China has had several mass stabbings.


'Several'. More than 300? Provide accurate numbers. And don't forget China has over 4 times as many people, so for there to be any parallel there would have to be a minimum of 1000 mass stabbing every year. Possible with a car, yes. Can you name how many mass killing have occurred with a car? You seem to have an aversion to numbers.

We have background checks. Enforcing our current laws and getting guns off the black market would help significantly.
I also support legalizing all drugs. Kill the black market and tax the addiction and use those taxes(including taxes from alcohol and cigarettes) to fund rehabilitation and mental health centers.


How can you enforce the laws when people see them as regulation and are against regulation because that's how they interpret the 300+ year old document that is no longer adequate for its original purpose in its original form?
 
salttee
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:39 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Like I've said, no new laws until the current laws are enforced.
Then all your talk above about the importance of the mental health of gun owners was just gibberish?
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:05 pm

Slug71 wrote:
"Assault rifles" are not weapons of mass destruction.

They are in the context of an amendment to the Constitution written in 1791 when muskets were new technology.

There is nothing a semi-auto rifle can do that a pistol can't.

You are too funny. I'm guessing that also explains why you were thrown out of the NRA. :rotfl:

Cannons are not bombs/explosives. They worked just like a gun did.

A double fail - impressive, even for you.
Here's the full quote; "the siege of Fort William Henry featured massive cannon, and mines, both requiring plenty of gunpowder"
So, cannon work just like a gun, and therefore are allowed under the Second Amendment?
{....waiting....}

And what is a mine? It's a broad term encompassing
Generic land mines
Anti-personnel mines
Anti-tank mines
Cluster Bombs, etc

And since mines were in use at the time of the siege of Fort Henry, I assume they are also covered by the Second Amendment "right to bear arms".

C'mon now, these war items are far more reasonable than far-fetched ideas of nuclear weapons, so there can be no call to restrict them. Right?
I promised myself I'd leave before the party turned ugly. I would quit at 1000 !
Here I am stuck at 994; each time I'm tempted to post, I find myself wondering who will even read it / what is the point?
Or maybe I've just got nothing left to say.
 
stratosphere
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:26 pm

seb146 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

As I said. It is a mental health issue.

What irks me is that this madness has major destructive implications on the rest of the world.


I don't see the relation the US has on the rest of the world in regards to this.


When ever a non-White person kills people, right wing blame immediately jumps to the heritage of the shooter and how the United States needs to take a hard line stand against all of that nationality. That is the one that jumps to my mind.

Look at what happened after 9/11. Security was tightened at all airports. That was a good thing. But, Muslims from every nation were blamed. Many people in the United States blame either Afghanistan or Iraq for the attack. The hijackers were not from either country. A huge majority of Muslims just want to live, work, and worship in the United States peacefully. And, yet, you righties are going to split hairs and insist that Islam=terrorism because of that small minority of Muslims.

After the San Burnardino and Orlando shootings, you righties were wetting yourself with glee because those shooters claimed to be Muslim. Even though, as with Christianity, murder is forbidden by Islam. Because murder is illegal by their holy texts, that was enough to stop them, right?


There are plenty of whites and blacks in this country that kill that is not the point. The problem with Muslims and Islam is that they have an Ideology that is counter to Christianity and their beliefs in this country and around the world and regardless of what moderate Muslims say they do not condemn any of the brutality of the radicals and some of them if not a lot of them are fine with the terrorism even if they would not actually carry out a terrorist attack that is my problem with them. It's not an individual thing it's an ideology that makes them more dangerous than average Joe and as such need to be profiled. They do not want to co exist in the world they want it all their own way. That is why Sweden and Germany are having the problems they are having with them. They do not want to assimilate. Just watched a man in the street interview with young men in Jordan they asked what would you do if your sister went out unescorted with a man not surprisingly most of them said they would kill her and it was not tongue in cheek they meant it. That is the stone age mentality I and a lot of people have issues with.
 
Caryjack
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:58 am

Brick wrote:
This sounds completely made up. The NYT article only lists 3 other incidents, one didn't even involve a firearm.

There was a shooting at a school in Italy, Texas yesterday. One today in Kentucky. Someone please tell me when and where the other 9 school shootings have been in the United States since the start of the year.
It just depends on how you look at things.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/false ... le/2647075
 
seb146
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:35 pm

stratosphere wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

I don't see the relation the US has on the rest of the world in regards to this.


When ever a non-White person kills people, right wing blame immediately jumps to the heritage of the shooter and how the United States needs to take a hard line stand against all of that nationality. That is the one that jumps to my mind.

Look at what happened after 9/11. Security was tightened at all airports. That was a good thing. But, Muslims from every nation were blamed. Many people in the United States blame either Afghanistan or Iraq for the attack. The hijackers were not from either country. A huge majority of Muslims just want to live, work, and worship in the United States peacefully. And, yet, you righties are going to split hairs and insist that Islam=terrorism because of that small minority of Muslims.

After the San Burnardino and Orlando shootings, you righties were wetting yourself with glee because those shooters claimed to be Muslim. Even though, as with Christianity, murder is forbidden by Islam. Because murder is illegal by their holy texts, that was enough to stop them, right?


There are plenty of whites and blacks in this country that kill that is not the point. The problem with Muslims and Islam is that they have an Ideology that is counter to Christianity and their beliefs in this country and around the world and regardless of what moderate Muslims say they do not condemn any of the brutality of the radicals and some of them if not a lot of them are fine with the terrorism even if they would not actually carry out a terrorist attack that is my problem with them. It's not an individual thing it's an ideology that makes them more dangerous than average Joe and as such need to be profiled. They do not want to co exist in the world they want it all their own way. That is why Sweden and Germany are having the problems they are having with them. They do not want to assimilate. Just watched a man in the street interview with young men in Jordan they asked what would you do if your sister went out unescorted with a man not surprisingly most of them said they would kill her and it was not tongue in cheek they meant it. That is the stone age mentality I and a lot of people have issues with.


If you look hard enough, you will find the bad in anything. Sure, there are neanderthals. There are also those trying very hard to assimilate.

When I did pizza delivery in Portland, I delivered to Muslims all the time. I did have to deal with one boy while his mother stood behind him because that is that family's custom. So what? That does not make them all bad nor does it mean they all want a strict patriarchy. One family, one time.

Could it be that immigrants from the Middle East to Europe can not assimilate because they are only allowed to live in certain areas or not allowed to work good paying jobs? I am asking an honest question. I know in the United States, as long as immigrants have proper documentation, they can work how ever much the state allows. Usually, they are just minimum wage jobs, so they can not afford much in the way of housing, so the low income neighborhoods are mostly immigrants who just want to live and worship in peace.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:44 pm

Slug71 wrote:
"Well regulated" under the 2A means well armed and trained. Not what you think it means.


Great, limiting gun ownership to those that can be considered well trained is therefore, by your own admission, not just allowed by the US constitution, it is required. Hence the lack of such a limitation violates the US constitution.
I think the US army has a clear list of recruitments someone has to fulfill to be considered well trained. So there you have your guideline as to when someone should be allowed to own arms as well.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
salttee
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:11 pm

Caryjack wrote:
It just depends on how you look at things.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/false ... le/2647075

This is an example of why it's a waste of time even rebutting right wing nonsense.

The Times article pointed out that there were 11 school shootings by January 23rd, (there was another one this morning) and you want to discredit that message, so you post a link to an article from a right wing source that provides a distorted rebuttal to the NYT story.

The Times said that there were 11 school shootings by January 23rd; the examiner rebuts that "There haven't been 10 other school shootings this year like the one in Kentucky". The Times never said that the shootings were alike.

So the Examiner is a typical slippery RW source that distorts a story that they want to fit their agenda - in essence they make up a story out of nothing and present it as a something. Then you come along and try to place this already twisted story into the context of a discussion of school shootings, without getting your hands dirty, because you just posted a link.

Why don't you and the Examiner just come out and say what you really mean - you lack empathy for anyone but yourself and you really don't give a shit about school shootings.

Then we could have an honest discussion about the subject.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:22 am

Another school shooting, this time the shooter was a 12yo girl.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42897626
Two teenage students have been shot at a Los Angeles school, and police say that a 12-year-old girl is in custody and her weapon has been seized.

The gunfire broke out at 08:55 local time (16:55 GMT) at Salvador Castro Middle School in the Westlake District.

A 15-year-old boy who was shot in the head is in "critical but stable" condition, and a girl, 15, was shot in the wrist, officials say.

Three others, aged 11 to 30, suffered minor injuries, police say.


Seriously, America. WHAT THE FUCK?

It seems obvious to me, the answer is more guns. :banghead:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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jetero
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:08 am

scbriml wrote:
Another school shooting, this time the shooter was a 12yo girl.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42897626
Two teenage students have been shot at a Los Angeles school, and police say that a 12-year-old girl is in custody and her weapon has been seized.

The gunfire broke out at 08:55 local time (16:55 GMT) at Salvador Castro Middle School in the Westlake District.

A 15-year-old boy who was shot in the head is in "critical but stable" condition, and a girl, 15, was shot in the wrist, officials say.

Three others, aged 11 to 30, suffered minor injuries, police say.


Seriously, America. WHAT THE FUCK?

It seems obvious to me, the answer is more guns. :banghead:


Better start arming those kids. It’s never too early.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:58 am

scbriml wrote:
Another school shooting, this time the shooter was a 12yo girl.

Clearly the thoughts and prayers have failed once again...but wait...maybe this is part of the Divine Plan...

And obviously, the good guy with a gun was nowhere to be found.

The solution is obvious: give every kid 10 guns and a rifle to be stored in their lockers.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
apodino
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:33 am

My thoughts and prayers are with the families of these victims. No child should have easy access to guns, and I have to wonder how this even happened in one of the states with the strictest gun control laws on the books?

We see these way too often, and clearly something needs to be done about it. The left's solution is to spit in the face of the second amendment and take away peoples guns. The Right's solution is to do nothing and allow society to turn into the wild wild west. I got news for you. Wyatt Earp isn't alive anymore.

What I have not seen nor have I heard any discussion about is how to address this problem while still respecting the rights afforded by the second amendment. The unfortunate consequence of the second amendment is we have to go through Metal Detectors way more often than we ever used to, whether its at an amusement park, or to watch a sporting event, etc. I would like to see us get to a place where this is no longer necessary. I dont know exactly how we do it. One thing we do have to look it is the amount of hatred out there and the amount of self loathing. Depression is a serious problem in this country, and many people dont get help for it. One reason is this can cause issues with insurance down the road. I have had insurance companies turn me down for Long Term Disability coverage because I have dealt with it in the past. We need to teach respect for each other as well. Our leadership at the very top is not setting a good example, and the Media portrayal of this makes it worse. We have social media where so much bullying is going on. All of this needs to be addressed, because it is indirectly causing the very mindset that sets these whackos off.

I wish we could do a little more about the gun situation in this country. Sadly, the second amendment cripples our ability to do much about it. And good luck getting 38 states to ratify a change to that amendment.
 
bagoldex
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:01 am

apodino wrote:
My thoughts and prayers are with the families of these victims.


What a courageous remark!

Image
 
tommy1808
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:14 am

apodino wrote:
I wish we could do a little more about the gun situation in this country. Sadly, the second amendment cripples our ability to do much about it. And good luck getting 38 states to ratify a change to that amendment.


I think the 2nd Amendment allows plenty, you just have to argue the right way...

Want a central gun register? No problem, the 2nd amendment has a purpose, defense, to mount an effective ad hoc force to aid in national defense it makes total sense to know where the government could direct people to probably find a weapon to aid in that defense. If you have 38 guns and rilfes in the house, you can´t carry them all anyways, better be a patriot and share.

Want a requirement to join a gun club for proper training? National defense can only be effective with a basic organisation in place.

Want to limit gun ownership to those that learn and understand the legal environment to operate guns in? The 2nd Amendment has a purpose, what would make more sense than the requirement to learn what the purpose is and when it is legal to own a gun.

I think what is missing is sensible people embracing the NRAs and alikes arguments. Well trained and equipped militia to fight off foreign invasion and tyranny, and the current gun legislation is utterly unfit to fulfill the purpose. Instead of trying to argue how a certain gun regulation doesn´t infringe on the right to bear arms, one should argue that the lack of regulation is defeating the purpose and infringing on the right to bear arms, it may be much more promising approach to legislate the proper use with the aim of fulfilling the requirements of the constitution.

It took generations of Judges to slide the slippery slope down to today´s gun right, turn the slope and slide it back to what the Amendment is, according to the "2nd Amendment people", for: Having a a reserve force of well trained, equipped and organized citizens ready to defend the homeland. Heck, you may even put a requirement in to report to a call up within 24 hours......

bagoldex wrote:
apodino wrote:
My thoughts and prayers are with the families of these victims.


What a courageous remark!

Image


That would probably be a lot more helpful than damaging and useless. After all, prayer not doing anything seems to be the best case outcome, it doing damage rather possible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_o ... ory_prayer

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
salttee
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:27 pm

bagoldex wrote:
What a courageous remark!

Who knew we had such a hero in our midst?

A.net's place in history is now secure!
 
jetero
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:16 pm

Lock and load, Annie!

#thoughtsandprayers
 
jetero
Posts: 3539
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:34 pm

Now on to "thoughts and best wishes" after one of "Trump's" favorites, an illegal immigrant, kills another one of his favorites, an NFL player. (Maybe only shooting victims or non-NFL players get prayers?) But "Trump" is never one to miss a political opportunity.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2234 ... legally-us
 
tommy1808
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:09 am

Slug71 wrote:
I thought the right was 'the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed'. If that is what the constitution says, there should be no regulation whatsoever. Clearly there must be cases where the rights are infringed as there is some regulation, so I ask again, where is the line drawn, and why?


having just read up on English heraldic traditions, yeah it was a long boring train trip, i´d like to point out that "the right to bear arms" traditionally means the right to bear a coat of arms and has nothing to do with weapons whatsoever. It may proof interesting to figure out how the phrase was used at the time of drafting.

The 2nd Amendment may just mean "We need a militia, well regulated, and we have no knights and shit, everybody can be an officer".

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:07 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
having just read up on English heraldic traditions, yeah it was a long boring train trip, i´d like to point out that "the right to bear arms" traditionally means the right to bear a coat of arms and has nothing to do with weapons whatsoever. It may proof interesting to figure out how the phrase was used at the time of drafting.

The 2nd Amendment may just mean "We need a militia, well regulated, and we have no knights and shit, everybody can be an officer"
Thomas

Most interesting!
And that is why many of us love these forums on a.net.

Wikipedia wrote:
The right to keep and bear arms (often referred to as the right to bear arms) is the people's right to possess weapons (arms) for their own defense, as described in the philosophical and political writings of Aristotle, Cicero, John Locke, Machiavelli, the English Whigs and others

Generally, where modern constitutions refer to arms at all, the purpose is "to allow the government to regulate their use or to compel military service, not to provide a right to bear them".

Constitutions which historically guaranteed a right to bear arms are those of Bolivia, Colombia, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras, Liberia, Mexico, Nicaragua and the United States of America. Nearly all of the Latin American examples were modelled on that of the United States.

At present, out of the world’s nearly 200 constitutions, three still include a right to bear arms: Guatemala, Mexico, and the United States; of these three, only the last does not include explicit restrictive conditions.

Gosh, it make you proud to be amurrican.

No right to bear firearms exists under international law, in particular there is no human right to self-defense and its means.

Instead, states are under an obligation to reasonably limit access to firearms as part of their duty to protect the right to life

....with one shining exception. :banghead:
I promised myself I'd leave before the party turned ugly. I would quit at 1000 !
Here I am stuck at 994; each time I'm tempted to post, I find myself wondering who will even read it / what is the point?
Or maybe I've just got nothing left to say.

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