WIederling
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:44 pm

nwadeicer wrote:
jetero wrote:
Thoughts and prayers



https://www.thoughtsandprayersthegame.com


"Kentucky Gov. Matt Bevin, seated, signs a prayer proclamation as Marshall County High School reopened its doors in Benton, Ky., Jan. 26, 2018."
( subscript of a picture o fox news.)

"signs a prayer proclamation"

This the way to fix it? Reminds me about the autoflagelants from medieval times.
Murphy is an optimist
 
salttee
Topic Author
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:54 pm

Here's a man biggly enjoyin bein an American!
Purty fancy hardware, doncha think?

Image

OOPS!
Timothy Smith, 28, went to Ed’s Car Wash in Melcroft, PA and killed his ex-girlfriend Chelsie Cline, 25; William Porterfield, 27; Courtney Snyder, 23; and Seth Cline, 21.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 6603
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:32 pm

salttee wrote:
OOPS!
Timothy Smith, 28, went to Ed’s Car Wash in Melcroft, PA and killed his ex-girlfriend Chelsie Cline, 25; William Porterfield, 27; Courtney Snyder, 23; and Seth Cline, 21.

Clearly some people are not thinking and praying hard enough.

DOUBLE TIME PEOPLE!!! MOVE!!!!
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
luckyone
Posts: 2563
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:59 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
DDR wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
Quick question: is it legal for US citizens to acquire a nuclear weapon (assuming they had enough money)?


Of course not, there is no benefit for the NRA.


I certainly hope it's not illegal, or at least not barred/restricted by the government. After all:

'the right to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED'

Not allowing people to bear nuclear arms sounds an awful lot like infringing.

If you're going to quote the US Constitution, then quote it completely. I'll spare you the trouble.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

If you can show me how you're part of a militia that requires you to own a firearm and why the NRA is necessary to ensure the arming of a militia, then I'll go along entirely with unrestricted gun access. However, as guns are supplied to members of the United States Armed Forces and various state and local police forces, I'm not sold on that interpretation. I'm of the opinion if you speak English, you can see there is a PURPOSE (looking at you NIK) for gun ownership explicitly defined in the Constitution.
 
seb146
Posts: 18035
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:45 am

You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Slug71
Posts: 1131
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:37 pm

Tugger wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
It's not up to you or anyone to control or make "purposes" for our rights.

You right is for and including "a well regulated militia." And this is why you are scared. You know that a judge(s) handed you unfettered access to guns (even though people similar decry "activist judges" that don't hue to a "strict constructionist" interpretation of the constitution), and that it will be corrected sometime in the near(ish) future.

Of course you will scream about activist judges... well maybe not you but for sure Fox and conservative talk radio or whatever has replaced it.

Guns are fine, access to guns is fine, the right to bear arms is fine, but it is because of the need for a regulated militia. SO get ready to join one. A well regulated one.....

Anywho... I am sure I will be flamed for advocating to take away your guns, butI'm not. I'm fine with you having them. Just be like my family: No one has a gun that hasn't earned it, (and if someone decides to just get one...) no one comes to the family event with a gun that hasn't demonstrated that A. they aren't an idiot with it (i.e. just bought one from Walmart and wants to bring it over to show it off); and B. that they know how to handle it and use it and actually hit something with it accurately, consistently. Now your family may be different, but that is OK because you won't be a family for long if you don't follow similar guidelines.

No government intrusion is needed, just "well regulated" family militia's or similar.

Tugg


luckyone wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
DDR wrote:

Of course not, there is no benefit for the NRA.


I certainly hope it's not illegal, or at least not barred/restricted by the government. After all:

'the right to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED'

Not allowing people to bear nuclear arms sounds an awful lot like infringing.

If you're going to quote the US Constitution, then quote it completely. I'll spare you the trouble.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

If you can show me how you're part of a militia that requires you to own a firearm and why the NRA is necessary to ensure the arming of a militia, then I'll go along entirely with unrestricted gun access. However, as guns are supplied to members of the United States Armed Forces and various state and local police forces, I'm not sold on that interpretation. I'm of the opinion if you speak English, you can see there is a PURPOSE (looking at you NIK) for gun ownership explicitly defined in the Constitution.



The people ARE the militia! When the second amendment was written, the US had no standing army or defense force! The people were the "militia"/military that defended this country from the British!
"Well regulated" under the 2A means well armed and trained. Not what you think it means.
The 2A was also put in place to defend against govt tyranny. Considering the weaponry the govt now has, we are "well regulated" by your definition.

MaverickM11 wrote:
The NRA has to hit its annual body count and sell more guns. Looks like they're right on track #blessed


Sickening that this is a joking matter to so many on the left.
Considering that the NRA is only one of a few big gun rights advocacy groups, slightly amusing that they get all the attention.
 
WIederling
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:14 pm

Slug71 wrote:
"Well regulated" under the 2A means well armed and trained. Not what you think it means.


"Well regulated".
I'd associate that with "common purpose, acting coherently, as cohorte of competent people"

NOT
taking potshots at people whose face you don't like. To be decided on per person and on a whim
with some all around russian roulette thrown in from being incompetent to handle a gun safely.

compare the stressful reaction of teachers when a pupil does some death related sketching
vs
the gay abandon "unalienable right to a gun" people show.
Murphy is an optimist
 
seb146
Posts: 18035
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:29 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
It's not up to you or anyone to control or make "purposes" for our rights.

You right is for and including "a well regulated militia." And this is why you are scared. You know that a judge(s) handed you unfettered access to guns (even though people similar decry "activist judges" that don't hue to a "strict constructionist" interpretation of the constitution), and that it will be corrected sometime in the near(ish) future.

Of course you will scream about activist judges... well maybe not you but for sure Fox and conservative talk radio or whatever has replaced it.

Guns are fine, access to guns is fine, the right to bear arms is fine, but it is because of the need for a regulated militia. SO get ready to join one. A well regulated one.....

Anywho... I am sure I will be flamed for advocating to take away your guns, butI'm not. I'm fine with you having them. Just be like my family: No one has a gun that hasn't earned it, (and if someone decides to just get one...) no one comes to the family event with a gun that hasn't demonstrated that A. they aren't an idiot with it (i.e. just bought one from Walmart and wants to bring it over to show it off); and B. that they know how to handle it and use it and actually hit something with it accurately, consistently. Now your family may be different, but that is OK because you won't be a family for long if you don't follow similar guidelines.

No government intrusion is needed, just "well regulated" family militia's or similar.

Tugg


luckyone wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

I certainly hope it's not illegal, or at least not barred/restricted by the government. After all:

'the right to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED'

Not allowing people to bear nuclear arms sounds an awful lot like infringing.

If you're going to quote the US Constitution, then quote it completely. I'll spare you the trouble.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

If you can show me how you're part of a militia that requires you to own a firearm and why the NRA is necessary to ensure the arming of a militia, then I'll go along entirely with unrestricted gun access. However, as guns are supplied to members of the United States Armed Forces and various state and local police forces, I'm not sold on that interpretation. I'm of the opinion if you speak English, you can see there is a PURPOSE (looking at you NIK) for gun ownership explicitly defined in the Constitution.



The people ARE the militia! When the second amendment was written, the US had no standing army or defense force! The people were the "militia"/military that defended this country from the British!
"Well regulated" under the 2A means well armed and trained. Not what you think it means.
The 2A was also put in place to defend against govt tyranny. Considering the weaponry the govt now has, we are "well regulated" by your definition.


And, according to the Founding Fathers, those people who are the Militia need to be trained in how to use guns, how to clean guns, how to be responsible with guns.

Slug71 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
The NRA has to hit its annual body count and sell more guns. Looks like they're right on track #blessed


Sickening that this is a joking matter to so many on the left.
Considering that the NRA is only one of a few big gun rights advocacy groups, slightly amusing that they get all the attention.


It is actually the truth. Nothing funny about it. Any time anyone decides to put out reasonable gun laws, the NRA is the first to start screaming about how we need the opposite and our rights are being taken away. The NRA and their supporters do not care how many are gunned down at once. The NRA and their supporters only care about how many guns are out there among the people.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 2867
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:33 pm

seb146 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
You right is for and including "a well regulated militia." And this is why you are scared. You know that a judge(s) handed you unfettered access to guns (even though people similar decry "activist judges" that don't hue to a "strict constructionist" interpretation of the constitution), and that it will be corrected sometime in the near(ish) future.

Of course you will scream about activist judges... well maybe not you but for sure Fox and conservative talk radio or whatever has replaced it.

Guns are fine, access to guns is fine, the right to bear arms is fine, but it is because of the need for a regulated militia. SO get ready to join one. A well regulated one.....

Anywho... I am sure I will be flamed for advocating to take away your guns, butI'm not. I'm fine with you having them. Just be like my family: No one has a gun that hasn't earned it, (and if someone decides to just get one...) no one comes to the family event with a gun that hasn't demonstrated that A. they aren't an idiot with it (i.e. just bought one from Walmart and wants to bring it over to show it off); and B. that they know how to handle it and use it and actually hit something with it accurately, consistently. Now your family may be different, but that is OK because you won't be a family for long if you don't follow similar guidelines.

No government intrusion is needed, just "well regulated" family militia's or similar.

Tugg


luckyone wrote:
If you're going to quote the US Constitution, then quote it completely. I'll spare you the trouble.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

If you can show me how you're part of a militia that requires you to own a firearm and why the NRA is necessary to ensure the arming of a militia, then I'll go along entirely with unrestricted gun access. However, as guns are supplied to members of the United States Armed Forces and various state and local police forces, I'm not sold on that interpretation. I'm of the opinion if you speak English, you can see there is a PURPOSE (looking at you NIK) for gun ownership explicitly defined in the Constitution.



The people ARE the militia! When the second amendment was written, the US had no standing army or defense force! The people were the "militia"/military that defended this country from the British!
"Well regulated" under the 2A means well armed and trained. Not what you think it means.
The 2A was also put in place to defend against govt tyranny. Considering the weaponry the govt now has, we are "well regulated" by your definition.


And, according to the Founding Fathers, those people who are the Militia need to be trained in how to use guns, how to clean guns, how to be responsible with guns.

Slug71 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
The NRA has to hit its annual body count and sell more guns. Looks like they're right on track #blessed


Sickening that this is a joking matter to so many on the left.
Considering that the NRA is only one of a few big gun rights advocacy groups, slightly amusing that they get all the attention.


It is actually the truth. Nothing funny about it. Any time anyone decides to put out reasonable gun laws, the NRA is the first to start screaming about how we need the opposite and our rights are being taken away. The NRA and their supporters do not care how many are gunned down at once. The NRA and their supporters only care about how many guns are out there among the people.


Because there is no such thing as a reasonable gun law. You want to change that, change the constitution... Shall not be infringed. The NRA is a joke of an organization, and they're quickly losing support of people in the gun world that know anything about them. The GOA is where the real 2A supporters live.
From my cold, dead hands
 
estorilm
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:34 pm

People like to forget the fact that there's already ~300 MILLION GUNS floating around US right now.

Future gun control, purchasing limitations, even bans (even bans on certain types!) aren't going to do a single thing.

The bottom line is that you'd have to "round up" and TAKE guns away from people, melt them down, and reduce that 300m number to something manageable where it's actually difficult for someone to get their hands on a firearm.

All of what I just said in the above paragraph is completely impossible and will NEVER happen, there would be riots (and mass shootings) - everyone would lose their minds.

320 million people, ~300 million guns. All you need is ONE of each to get one of your shooting events, massacres, etc.

I hate to sound so pessimistic, but yes - it is impossible to stop, we passed the point of no return decades ago, probably a century ago. Sure - basic gun control laws make sense (I mean you can't just be giving away ARs to crazy people) but sadly if said crazy person wants a gun, they probably already have one or know where to grab one.

People really need to be more vigilant about mental health, disorders, signals, signs, etc.. especially those in a position to make an impact (teachers, professors, parents, hospitals, doctors, etc) there should be a system in place to tag at-risk individuals and get them checked out, helped out, etc.

Beyond that - sure, fight fire with fire. I think teachers should be armed, maybe some in public transit positions, etc. Luckily transit systems typically have civilians with concealed permits all over the place these days already, but taking these people out before they have a chance to go on a prolonged rampage is definitely helpful.

I don't know - the numbers just seem blatantly obvious to me, what am I missing? Ban every gun sale in America right this second, what's your plan for the nearly 1:1 gun-to-citizen ratio that already exists? Sure propose restrictions on future sales, I don't see that as a 2nd amendment issue, but there's no way you can take what's already out there without some major problems - and would be blatantly unconstitutional as well.
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 6603
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:55 pm

Slug71 wrote:
The 2A was also put in place to defend against govt tyranny. Considering the weaponry the govt now has, we are "well regulated" by your definition.

So when is it considered government tyranny? Because no matter how you look at it, to shoot at a government official is a crime. So if the POTUS himself were shooting folks, the minute you shoot at him, you've committed a crime.

When Scalise was shot, some attempted to say that the shooter was exercising his right in what he perceived to be government tyranny, but I'm certain YOU wouldn't think that was the case. No...he was cast as an extremist liberal, bitter that the Democrats lost, even if Scalise and his GOP colleagues were voting to undo the ACA.

So again, I ask...when is it considered government tyranny? When is it allowed to take up arms against the government?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
seb146
Posts: 18035
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:22 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:




The people ARE the militia! When the second amendment was written, the US had no standing army or defense force! The people were the "militia"/military that defended this country from the British!
"Well regulated" under the 2A means well armed and trained. Not what you think it means.
The 2A was also put in place to defend against govt tyranny. Considering the weaponry the govt now has, we are "well regulated" by your definition.


And, according to the Founding Fathers, those people who are the Militia need to be trained in how to use guns, how to clean guns, how to be responsible with guns.

Slug71 wrote:

Sickening that this is a joking matter to so many on the left.
Considering that the NRA is only one of a few big gun rights advocacy groups, slightly amusing that they get all the attention.


It is actually the truth. Nothing funny about it. Any time anyone decides to put out reasonable gun laws, the NRA is the first to start screaming about how we need the opposite and our rights are being taken away. The NRA and their supporters do not care how many are gunned down at once. The NRA and their supporters only care about how many guns are out there among the people.


Because there is no such thing as a reasonable gun law. You want to change that, change the constitution... Shall not be infringed. The NRA is a joke of an organization, and they're quickly losing support of people in the gun world that know anything about them. The GOA is where the real 2A supporters live.


So you and the NRA support mass murder. Instead of working with the Constitution, you would rather just think and pray while thousands die. Well regulated militia. You and the NRA support the party of "right to life" but you all will gladly watch as people are gunned down because well regulated militia. That is sick.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 2867
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:31 pm

seb146 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:

And, according to the Founding Fathers, those people who are the Militia need to be trained in how to use guns, how to clean guns, how to be responsible with guns.



It is actually the truth. Nothing funny about it. Any time anyone decides to put out reasonable gun laws, the NRA is the first to start screaming about how we need the opposite and our rights are being taken away. The NRA and their supporters do not care how many are gunned down at once. The NRA and their supporters only care about how many guns are out there among the people.


Because there is no such thing as a reasonable gun law. You want to change that, change the constitution... Shall not be infringed. The NRA is a joke of an organization, and they're quickly losing support of people in the gun world that know anything about them. The GOA is where the real 2A supporters live.


So you and the NRA support mass murder. Instead of working with the Constitution, you would rather just think and pray while thousands die. Well regulated militia. You and the NRA support the party of "right to life" but you all will gladly watch as people are gunned down because well regulated militia. That is sick.


Once again, you sir are a moron. And prove exactly why you remain on my ignore list. I don't support the NRA one bit. The NRA is not pro-2A, full stop. If they were, they'd be out there pushing for a GCA repeal, and a NFA repeal. What does the "right to life" have anything to do with this, this isn't an abortion issue...

You know, there are people who aren't hard core right wingers who own guns. But again, with you living in the bubble you live in, I wouldn't expect you to understand.
From my cold, dead hands
 
User avatar
Slug71
Posts: 1131
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:35 pm

seb146 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:

And, according to the Founding Fathers, those people who are the Militia need to be trained in how to use guns, how to clean guns, how to be responsible with guns.



It is actually the truth. Nothing funny about it. Any time anyone decides to put out reasonable gun laws, the NRA is the first to start screaming about how we need the opposite and our rights are being taken away. The NRA and their supporters do not care how many are gunned down at once. The NRA and their supporters only care about how many guns are out there among the people.


Because there is no such thing as a reasonable gun law. You want to change that, change the constitution... Shall not be infringed. The NRA is a joke of an organization, and they're quickly losing support of people in the gun world that know anything about them. The GOA is where the real 2A supporters live.


So you and the NRA support mass murder. Instead of working with the Constitution, you would rather just think and pray while thousands die. Well regulated militia. You and the NRA support the party of "right to life" but you all will gladly watch as people are gunned down because well regulated militia. That is sick.


That is absolute hogwash! Nobody in their right mind would support that!

Please explain what single law would have prevented these mass murders? Nevermind that murder is already against the law.
 
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Slug71
Posts: 1131
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:46 pm

There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. U.S. population 324,059,091 as of Wednesday, June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death:

• 65% of those deaths are by suicide which would never be prevented by gun laws
• 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified
• 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons – gun violence
• 3% are accidental discharge deaths

So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many? Well, first, how are those deaths spanned across the nation?
• 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago
• 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore
• 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit
• 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years)

So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause.

This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation, or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1.

Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, so it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So if all cities and states are not created equally, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths.

Are 5,100 deaths per year horrific? How about in comparison to other deaths? All death is sad and especially so when it is in the commission of a crime but that is the nature of crime. Robbery, death, rape, assault all is done by criminals and thinking that criminals will obey laws is ludicrous. That's why they are criminals.

But what about other deaths each year?
• 40,000+ die from a drug overdose–THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT!
• 36,000 people die per year from the flu, far exceeding the criminal gun deaths
• 34,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities(exceeding gun deaths even if you include suicide)

Now it gets good:
• 200,000+ people die each year (and growing) from preventable medical errors. You are safer in Chicago than when you are in a hospital!

• 710,000 people die per year from heart disease. It’s time to stop the double cheeseburgers! So what is the point? If Obama and the anti-gun movement focused their attention on heart disease, even a 10% decrease in cardiac deaths would save twice the number of lives annually of all gun-related deaths (including suicide, law enforcement, etc.). A 10% reduction in medical errors would be 66% of the total gun deaths or 4 times the number of criminal homicides......Simple, easily preventable 10% reductions!

So you have to ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, why the focus on guns? It's pretty simple.:
Taking away guns gives control to governments.

The founders of this nation knew that regardless of the form of government, those in power may become corrupt and seek to rule as the British did by trying to disarm the populace of the colonies. It is not difficult to understand that a disarmed populace is a controlled populace.

Thus, the second amendment was proudly and boldly included in the U.S. Constitution. It must be preserved at all costs.

So the next time someone tries to tell you that gun control is about saving lives, look at these facts and remember these words from Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the whole body of the people are armed and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force at the command of Congress can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power."

Remember, when it comes to "gun control," the important word is “control," not “gun."
 
salttee
Topic Author
Posts: 2492
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:37 pm

estorilm wrote:
People like to forget the fact that there's already ~300 MILLION GUNS floating around US right now.

Future gun control, purchasing limitations, even bans (even bans on certain types!) aren't going to do a single thing.

The bottom line is that you'd have to "round up" and TAKE guns away from people, melt them down, and reduce that 300m number to something manageable where it's actually difficult for someone to get their hands on a firearm.

All of what I just said in the above paragraph is completely impossible and will NEVER happen, there would be riots (and mass shootings) - everyone would lose their minds.

320 million people, ~300 million guns. All you need is ONE of each to get one of your shooting events, massacres, etc.
I hate to sound so pessimistic, but yes - it is impossible to stop, we passed the point of no return decades ago, probably a century ago. Sure - basic gun control laws make sense (I mean you can't just be giving away ARs to crazy people) but sadly if said crazy person wants a gun, they probably already have one or know where to grab one.

People really need to be more vigilant about mental health, disorders, signals, signs, etc.. especially those in a position to make an impact (teachers, professors, parents, hospitals, doctors, etc) there should be a system in place to tag at-risk individuals and get them checked out, helped out, etc.

Beyond that - sure, fight fire with fire. I think teachers should be armed, maybe some in public transit positions, etc. Luckily transit systems typically have civilians with concealed permits all over the place these days already, but taking these people out before they have a chance to go on a prolonged rampage is definitely helpful.

I don't know - the numbers just seem blatantly obvious to me, what am I missing? Ban every gun sale in America right this second, what's your plan for the nearly 1:1 gun-to-citizen ratio that already exists? Sure propose restrictions on future sales, I don't see that as a 2nd amendment issue, but there's no way you can take what's already out there without some major problems - and would be blatantly unconstitutional as well.

So your argument is that we shouldn't try to reduce the number of guns because there's so many guns? That's some inventive logic. And your thinly veiled threats of civil insurrection are laughable.

There is no need to "round up" and TAKE guns away from people" there are plenty of ways to apply pressure to remove the completely unnecessary automatic and semi automatic military weapons from the country. If the manufacturers of pistols are made responsible for the casualties they inflict, that problem will also dwindle to an eventual irrelevancy. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Your logic would lead us to legalize burglary because there are so many burglars already out there. Your constitutional argument will soon fall by the wayside.
 
User avatar
Slug71
Posts: 1131
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:14 pm

salttee wrote:
estorilm wrote:
People like to forget the fact that there's already ~300 MILLION GUNS floating around US right now.

Future gun control, purchasing limitations, even bans (even bans on certain types!) aren't going to do a single thing.

The bottom line is that you'd have to "round up" and TAKE guns away from people, melt them down, and reduce that 300m number to something manageable where it's actually difficult for someone to get their hands on a firearm.

All of what I just said in the above paragraph is completely impossible and will NEVER happen, there would be riots (and mass shootings) - everyone would lose their minds.

320 million people, ~300 million guns. All you need is ONE of each to get one of your shooting events, massacres, etc.
I hate to sound so pessimistic, but yes - it is impossible to stop, we passed the point of no return decades ago, probably a century ago. Sure - basic gun control laws make sense (I mean you can't just be giving away ARs to crazy people) but sadly if said crazy person wants a gun, they probably already have one or know where to grab one.

People really need to be more vigilant about mental health, disorders, signals, signs, etc.. especially those in a position to make an impact (teachers, professors, parents, hospitals, doctors, etc) there should be a system in place to tag at-risk individuals and get them checked out, helped out, etc.

Beyond that - sure, fight fire with fire. I think teachers should be armed, maybe some in public transit positions, etc. Luckily transit systems typically have civilians with concealed permits all over the place these days already, but taking these people out before they have a chance to go on a prolonged rampage is definitely helpful.

I don't know - the numbers just seem blatantly obvious to me, what am I missing? Ban every gun sale in America right this second, what's your plan for the nearly 1:1 gun-to-citizen ratio that already exists? Sure propose restrictions on future sales, I don't see that as a 2nd amendment issue, but there's no way you can take what's already out there without some major problems - and would be blatantly unconstitutional as well.

So your argument is that we shouldn't try to reduce the number of guns because there's so many guns? That's some inventive logic. And your thinly veiled threats of civil insurrection are laughable.

There is no need to "round up" and TAKE guns away from people" there are plenty of ways to apply pressure to remove the completely unnecessary automatic and semi automatic military weapons from the country. If the manufacturers of pistols are made responsible for the casualties they inflict, that problem will also dwindle to an eventual irrelevancy. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Your logic would lead us to legalize burglary because there are so many burglars already out there. Your constitutional argument will soon fall by the wayside.


Automatic weapons are already restricted! Most people can't even afford them besides the red tape. If you are wanting to outlaw semi-automatic "military" weapons, then why not any semi-auto? What would stop later laws against owning semi-autos?
The Beretta M9(semi-auto) is a military side-arm. So I should be restricted from owning a pistol too?
 
salttee
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:58 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Automatic weapons are already restricted! Most people can't even afford them besides the red tape. If you are wanting to outlaw semi-automatic "military" weapons, then why not any semi-auto?
In my view that's exactly correct. Not only that, but all long guns and shotguns should be limited to three rounds. That will be no burden on actual hunters, and it's the nutcases that imagine themselves shooting humans are in need of adult supervision anyway. The idea of "protecting" ones self from the government is preposterous and persons advocating such should be prosecuted for treason or sedition and taken off the street.

Slug71 wrote:
So I should be restricted from owning a pistol too?
Pistols and long guns are separate subjects, there is no need to eliminate semiauto function in pistols. However any community that wishes to ban pistols of all kinds certainly has that right.
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:50 pm

salttee wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Automatic weapons are already restricted! Most people can't even afford them besides the red tape. If you are wanting to outlaw semi-automatic "military" weapons, then why not any semi-auto?
In my view that's exactly correct. Not only that, but all long guns and shotguns should be limited to three rounds. That will be no burden on actual hunters, and it's the nutcases that imagine themselves shooting humans are in need of adult supervision anyway. The idea of "protecting" ones self from the government is preposterous and persons advocating such should be prosecuted for treason or sedition and taken off the street.

Slug71 wrote:
So I should be restricted from owning a pistol too?
Pistols and long guns are separate subjects, there is no need to eliminate semiauto function in pistols. However any community that wishes to ban pistols of all kinds certainly has that right.


The basic function of a semi-auto pistol is no different from a long gun. Three rounds won't do shit. You would be jeopardizing the right to self-defense of millions of people! The 2A has nothing to do with hunting. But at least you acknowledge that you basically want everything outlawed and that the 2A is "preposterous". Perhaps you should move since you don't like our constitution. Good thing you don't decide the laws. We don't need the US turning into Brazil or South Africa.
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:11 pm

Slug71 wrote:
The 2A has nothing to do with hunting.

Well at least you are willing to admit that. And of course the Second Amendment was intended to support the need for public defense, hence the phrase "a well regulated militia". People ignore it but bully for you for understanding it properly.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:56 am

salttee wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Automatic weapons are already restricted! Most people can't even afford them besides the red tape. If you are wanting to outlaw semi-automatic "military" weapons, then why not any semi-auto?
In my view that's exactly correct. Not only that, but all long guns and shotguns should be limited to three rounds. That will be no burden on actual hunters, and it's the nutcases that imagine themselves shooting humans are in need of adult supervision anyway. The idea of "protecting" ones self from the government is preposterous and persons advocating such should be prosecuted for treason or sedition and taken off the street.

Slug71 wrote:
So I should be restricted from owning a pistol too?
Pistols and long guns are separate subjects, there is no need to eliminate semiauto function in pistols. However any community that wishes to ban pistols of all kinds certainly has that right.


And this is why you anti-gunners are so full of BS. Long arms are used in 4% of murders in this country. So once again, the liberals show they don't want to address the gang-banger inner cities issues, just easy to reach ones.
From my cold, dead hands
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:03 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
And this is why you anti-gunners are so full of BS. Long arms are used in 4% of murders in this country. So once again, the liberals show they don't want to address the gang-banger inner cities issues, just easy to reach ones.

You continue to lump people into single categories and that is inaccurate at best and stops effective communication at worst.
Sure there are "anti- gun" people, but there are plenty of people, both "liberal" and "conservative" who do believe additional controls on gun ownership are appropriate. Apparently that includes you as well which is nice to see.

So what additional controls or limits or regulations would you be willing to support on handguns? I agree that hunting and related long guns are not the issue.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:23 am

Tugger wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
And this is why you anti-gunners are so full of BS. Long arms are used in 4% of murders in this country. So once again, the liberals show they don't want to address the gang-banger inner cities issues, just easy to reach ones.

You continue to lump people into single categories and that is inaccurate at best and stops effective communication at worst.
Sure there are "anti- gun" people, but there are plenty of people, both "liberal" and "conservative" who do believe additional controls on gun ownership are appropriate. Apparently that includes you as well which is nice to see.

So what additional controls or limits or regulations would you be willing to support on handguns? I agree that hunting and related long guns are not the issue.

Tugg


None, shall not be infringed. We need mental health system taken care of and some basic firearms education in school would be a good place to start.
From my cold, dead hands
 
salttee
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:31 am

Tugger wrote:
Well at least you are willing to admit that. And of course the Second Amendment was intended to support the need for public defense, hence the phrase "a well regulated militia". People ignore it but bully for you for understanding it properly.

I congratulate you both for living in the 17th century, and also for not being able to understand the concept of "a well regulated militia".
The second amendment is a strawman, it is a way to turn the discussion to bickering about an esoteric concept.

What is needed in the 21st century, is to undo the confusion in so many peoples minds which somehow makes a gun a replacement for their absent mother's nipple. The whole gun argument is dishonest nonsense from beginning to end.

This photo from the religious discussion captures the essence of dishonesty in the gun argument.
Image
Jimmy Swaggert, I believe.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:40 am

Tugger wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
And this is why you anti-gunners are so full of BS. Long arms are used in 4% of murders in this country. So once again, the liberals show they don't want to address the gang-banger inner cities issues, just easy to reach ones.

You continue to lump people into single categories and that is inaccurate at best and stops effective communication at worst.
Sure there are "anti- gun" people, but there are plenty of people, both "liberal" and "conservative" who do believe additional controls on gun ownership are appropriate. Apparently that includes you as well which is nice to see.

So what additional controls or limits or regulations would you be willing to support on handguns? I agree that hunting and related long guns are not the issue.

Tugg


I'll play. Until the laws that are currently on books are heavily enforced, I support no additional laws. The current laws we have are sufficient in addressing the gun related crimes being committed.

The only new law I'll consider, is penalties on people who fail to report stolen firearms and punishment if the firearm was stolen under negligible circumstances.

There is no new law that could have prevented any of the mass shootings. Hammers kill more people per year than "assault rifles". A big majority of gun related murders are committed in gang ridden cities/neighborhoods. By criminals, illegally in possession, and with stolen firearms(they are not going to subject themselves to background checks). All crimes already.
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:00 am

salttee wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Well at least you are willing to admit that. And of course the Second Amendment was intended to support the need for public defense, hence the phrase "a well regulated militia". People ignore it but bully for you for understanding it properly.

I congratulate you both for living in the 17th century, and also for not being able to understand the concept of "a well regulated militia".
The second amendment is a strawman, it is a way to turn the discussion to bickering about an esoteric concept.

What is needed in the 21st century, is to undo the confusion in so many peoples minds which somehow makes a gun a replacement for their absent mother's nipple. The whole gun argument is dishonest nonsense from beginning to end.

This photo from the religious discussion captures the essence of dishonesty in the gun argument.
Image
Jimmy Swaggert, I believe.


YOU do NOT understand the meaning of "Well regulated militia" as written in the constitution!
WE THE PEOPLE WERE THE MILITIA! The US had NO army or defense force at the time. "Well regulated" means well armed and trained to be able to go to war.

You should read the forms N-400 for US Naturalization. Right in there is a question asking if you would take up arms to defend the country.
The second amendment literally protects our entire constitution.

Again, you are more than welcome to move to a country that outlaws or has strict laws on guns. I bet the farmers and many citizens of South Africa wish they had our second amendment. Especially now as they prepare to run out of water.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:08 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
We need mental health system taken care of and some basic firearms education in school would be a good place to start.

Mental health is not part of the gun problem, certainly far less than long arms are

WIederling wrote:
nwadeicer wrote:
jetero wrote:
Thoughts and prayers



https://www.thoughtsandprayersthegame.com


"Kentucky Gov. Matt Bevin, seated, signs a prayer proclamation as Marshall County High School reopened its doors in Benton, Ky., Jan. 26, 2018."
( subscript of a picture o fox news.)

"signs a prayer proclamation"

This the way to fix it? Reminds me about the autoflagelants from medieval times.

Yep, that's how we do. One may not be born stupid, but one is definitely born again stupid.

Slug71 wrote:
Sickening that this is a joking matter to so many on the left.
Considering that the NRA is only one of a few big gun rights advocacy groups, slightly amusing that they get all the attention.

Careful, your virtue signaling slip is showing.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:55 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
We need mental health system taken care of and some basic firearms education in school would be a good place to start.

Mental health is not part of the gun problem, certainly far less than long arms are.


Yes mental health is part of the problem. A gun is just a tool. Most gun related deaths are suicide. To go out and do mass murders is a psychological problem. Long arms kill less people than knives or hammers.

A big part of the problem is also the lack of discipline these days.
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:30 am

Slug71 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
We need mental health system taken care of and some basic firearms education in school would be a good place to start.

Mental health is not part of the gun problem, certainly far less than long arms are.


Yes mental health is part of the problem. A gun is just a tool. Most gun related deaths are suicide. To go out and do mass murders is a psychological problem. Long arms kill less people than knives or hammers.

A big part of the problem is also the lack of discipline these days.

So it appears you are advocating for tests on mental ability/stability and for tests of firearm discipline. Those are to excellent criteria for gun ownership.

In my family of hunters both of those are basic essential requirements for one to have a firearm around the family and if you are going to join on a hunt etc. Seems sound, good to hear others support such things and it is a good basis for use and ownership.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:54 am

Slug71 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
We need mental health system taken care of and some basic firearms education in school would be a good place to start.

Mental health is not part of the gun problem, certainly far less than long arms are.


Yes mental health is part of the problem. A gun is just a tool. Most gun related deaths are suicide. To go out and do mass murders is a psychological problem. Long arms kill less people than knives or hammers.

A big part of the problem is also the lack of discipline these days.

Total nonsense. Mental health is a factor in a tiny percentage of mass shootings and is itself not remarkably different from the rest of the developed world where gun homicides are near non existent. And "discipline" is a non word ammosexuals like to throw around when they know they don't have a solution to a problem they deny exists--how exactly is "discipline" an issue, different from Europe, Australia, East Asia, Canada, etc?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
seb146
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:59 am

Slug71 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

Because there is no such thing as a reasonable gun law. You want to change that, change the constitution... Shall not be infringed. The NRA is a joke of an organization, and they're quickly losing support of people in the gun world that know anything about them. The GOA is where the real 2A supporters live.


So you and the NRA support mass murder. Instead of working with the Constitution, you would rather just think and pray while thousands die. Well regulated militia. You and the NRA support the party of "right to life" but you all will gladly watch as people are gunned down because well regulated militia. That is sick.


That is absolute hogwash! Nobody in their right mind would support that!

Please explain what single law would have prevented these mass murders? Nevermind that murder is already against the law.


And there are drunk driving laws on the books but people still do that. There are anti drug laws but people still do that. What is your point?

There are also background checks that COULD be enforced but NRA and ammosexuals and righties who love the murder rates refuse to demand they be enforced. There are mental illness checks and wait periods and limits on clips and rounds and mandatory, ongoing training (what would be a militia) and insurance but NRA and ammosexuals and rightes who love high murder rates refuse to do any of those or even entertain that notion that anything other than high kill numbers can be done.

One illegal one time kills one blonde woman and all hell breaks loose. All about them priorities!
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:50 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Mental health is not part of the gun problem, certainly far less than long arms are.


Yes mental health is part of the problem. A gun is just a tool. Most gun related deaths are suicide. To go out and do mass murders is a psychological problem. Long arms kill less people than knives or hammers.

A big part of the problem is also the lack of discipline these days.

Total nonsense. Mental health is a factor in a tiny percentage of mass shootings and is itself not remarkably different from the rest of the developed world where gun homicides are near non existent. And "discipline" is a non word ammosexuals like to throw around when they know they don't have a solution to a problem they deny exists--how exactly is "discipline" an issue, different from Europe, Australia, East Asia, Canada, etc?


Oh but it's not total nonsense. It is not a tiny percentage. The mere thought of wanting to do that to people, IS a mental health issue. They will carry it out with a gun or no gun. Very recently was ramming vehicles into crowds.

Like I said, the gun is a tool. What are the MURDER rates in these countries with "near non existent gun homocides"? Those MURDERS would probably have occurred with a gun had their laws been more lenient, but guns don't make criminals. That typically starts much younger than being allowed to own a gun. Which is where the discipline comes in.
The US outlawed spanking and went soft on kids in schools a lot sooner than most countries. Most schools overseas have a lot more rules than here. Especially with dress code, many wearing uniforms. I grew up in South Africa. Guns was not hard to get. While murders are ridiculously high, I can't think of any mass shootings. Brazil seems comparable too.
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:20 am

seb146 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

So you and the NRA support mass murder. Instead of working with the Constitution, you would rather just think and pray while thousands die. Well regulated militia. You and the NRA support the party of "right to life" but you all will gladly watch as people are gunned down because well regulated militia. That is sick.


That is absolute hogwash! Nobody in their right mind would support that!

Please explain what single law would have prevented these mass murders? Nevermind that murder is already against the law.


And there are drunk driving laws on the books but people still do that. There are anti drug laws but people still do that. What is your point?

There are also background checks that COULD be enforced but NRA and ammosexuals and righties who love the murder rates refuse to demand they be enforced. There are mental illness checks and wait periods and limits on clips and rounds and mandatory, ongoing training (what would be a militia) and insurance but NRA and ammosexuals and rightes who love high murder rates refuse to do any of those or even entertain that notion that anything other than high kill numbers can be done.

One illegal one time kills one blonde woman and all hell breaks loose. All about them priorities!


Because that illegal WALKED! Those are exactly the laws we want ENFORCED first and foremost. He broke SEVERAL laws already on the books. FELONIES! Which also apply to most gun related homicides.

Felons are not allowed to own firearms. Felony
Possession of a stolen firearm is illegal. Felony
Automatic weapons are illegal. Felony
Carrying a concealed weapon in a State that requires a permit is a felony.
Straw purchases is a felony.
Lying on form 4473 is a felony. (Including use of narcotics and prescription drugs)
Selling a weapon to a felon is....felony.

The US has roughly 330 million people. That is significantly more than most countries. You can't expect the US to have comparable rates with the likes of Australia, NZ, UK, and countries in the EU with a significantly lower population AND stricter gun laws. Our "ghetos/gang bangers" combined, probably have more people than the populations of small countries.

South Africa has strict laws, yet they one of the highest homicide rates in the world. And it's mostly the criminals that are armed.
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:41 am

Slug71 wrote:
Oh but it's not total nonsense. It is not a tiny percentage. The mere thought of wanting to do that to people, IS a mental health issue. They will carry it out with a gun or no gun. Very recently was ramming vehicles into crowds.

Like I said, the gun is a tool. What are the MURDER rates in these countries with "near non existent gun homocides"? Those MURDERS would probably have occurred with a gun had their laws been more lenient, but guns don't make criminals. That typically starts much younger than being allowed to own a gun. Which is where the discipline comes in.
The US outlawed spanking and went soft on kids in schools a lot sooner than most countries. Most schools overseas have a lot more rules than here. Especially with dress code, many wearing uniforms. I grew up in South Africa. Guns was not hard to get. While murders are ridiculously high, I can't think of any mass shootings. Brazil seems comparable too.

You're just taking your previous nonsense and compounding it with more nonsense. Put numbers to any of your claims and try again. If you're going to connect the lack of spanking with crime then you'll be pleased to know that it has been correlated with a steep drop in crime across the board.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:52 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Oh but it's not total nonsense. It is not a tiny percentage. The mere thought of wanting to do that to people, IS a mental health issue. They will carry it out with a gun or no gun. Very recently was ramming vehicles into crowds.

Like I said, the gun is a tool. What are the MURDER rates in these countries with "near non existent gun homocides"? Those MURDERS would probably have occurred with a gun had their laws been more lenient, but guns don't make criminals. That typically starts much younger than being allowed to own a gun. Which is where the discipline comes in.
The US outlawed spanking and went soft on kids in schools a lot sooner than most countries. Most schools overseas have a lot more rules than here. Especially with dress code, many wearing uniforms. I grew up in South Africa. Guns was not hard to get. While murders are ridiculously high, I can't think of any mass shootings. Brazil seems comparable too.

You're just taking your previous nonsense and compounding it with more nonsense. Put numbers to any of your claims and try again. If you're going to connect the lack of spanking with crime then you'll be pleased to know that it has been correlated with a steep drop in crime across the board.


Spanking is just one method of discipline. It was an example I threw out there. A lack of discipline in general and the support of criminals is a issue.
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:53 am

Slug71 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Oh but it's not total nonsense. It is not a tiny percentage. The mere thought of wanting to do that to people, IS a mental health issue. They will carry it out with a gun or no gun. Very recently was ramming vehicles into crowds.

Like I said, the gun is a tool. What are the MURDER rates in these countries with "near non existent gun homocides"? Those MURDERS would probably have occurred with a gun had their laws been more lenient, but guns don't make criminals. That typically starts much younger than being allowed to own a gun. Which is where the discipline comes in.
The US outlawed spanking and went soft on kids in schools a lot sooner than most countries. Most schools overseas have a lot more rules than here. Especially with dress code, many wearing uniforms. I grew up in South Africa. Guns was not hard to get. While murders are ridiculously high, I can't think of any mass shootings. Brazil seems comparable too.

You're just taking your previous nonsense and compounding it with more nonsense. Put numbers to any of your claims and try again. If you're going to connect the lack of spanking with crime then you'll be pleased to know that it has been correlated with a steep drop in crime across the board.


Spanking is just one method of discipline. It was an example I threw out there. A lack of discipline in general and the support of criminals is a issue.

Well it's been in lock step with a decline in crime then, so put that in your pipe and smoke it
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:00 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
You're just taking your previous nonsense and compounding it with more nonsense. Put numbers to any of your claims and try again. If you're going to connect the lack of spanking with crime then you'll be pleased to know that it has been correlated with a steep drop in crime across the board.


Spanking is just one method of discipline. It was an example I threw out there. A lack of discipline in general and the support of criminals is a issue.

Well it's been in lock step with a decline in crime then, so put that in your pipe and smoke it


You're right. Proof that our gun laws work. Especially considering gun ownership has dramatically increased. :thumbsup:
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:06 am

Slug71 wrote:

YOU do NOT understand the meaning of "Well regulated militia" as written in the constitution!
WE THE PEOPLE WERE THE MILITIA! The US had NO army or defense force at the time. "Well regulated" means well armed and trained to be able to go to war.

You should read the forms N-400 for US Naturalization. Right in there is a question asking if you would take up arms to defend the country.
The second amendment literally protects our entire constitution.

Again, you are more than welcome to move to a country that outlaws or has strict laws on guns. I bet the farmers and many citizens of South Africa wish they had our second amendment. Especially now as they prepare to run out of water.


So if 'well-regulated' means 'well-armed' (highly debatable), and 'militia' means 'the people', then we ask the question: are all people well-armed, trained and able to go to war? Seems not, what with obesity, guns not being mandatory, no training having been given or ever been mandatory, no idea how you would call people to war and how you would organise them. Surely the government should organise mandatory training for firearms, training for service (almost like conscription but not actually serving, just prepared) and whip the population into healthier practices so that there aren't so many obese people. None of those things happen, but they, or something similar, should be in place to uphold the 2nd amendment as you define it.

Also, the constitution was written so long ago that it's debatable whether it's relevant for what you consider its original intent to have been. The USA is under no threat of invasion, the military is now the largest in the world by far, neither neighbour will invade and people with guns aren't going to do anything against the most likely threats (i.e. nuclear weapons). Do you desperately need people to be armed with guns for the protection of the current state? Is it worth the very high cost in lives for something that is extremely unlikely to happen?

As a PS, can you source anywhere, especially from the timeframe when the constitution was written where 'well-regulated' means well-armed'? Seems suspect to me.

And I'm also awaiting a response about what constitutes 'arms'. Surely a US citizen should be allowed to bear nuclear arms, and prohibition from doing so violates the 2nd amendment?
 
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:05 am

Slug71 wrote:
You're right. Proof that our gun laws work. Especially considering gun ownership has dramatically increased. :thumbsup:

No, we're still an extreme outlier in the civilized world in terms of gun deaths
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
salttee
Topic Author
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:19 am

Has anybody else noticed that Slug is proposing the creation of a government agency to certify the mental health of citizens?

What could go wrong with that?
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:43 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
You're right. Proof that our gun laws work. Especially considering gun ownership has dramatically increased. :thumbsup:

No, we're still an extreme outlier in the civilized world in terms of gun deaths


Wrong.

salttee wrote:
Has anybody else noticed that Slug is proposing the creation of a government agency to certify the mental health of citizens?

What could go wrong with that?


I am advocating no such thing.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3008
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:57 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
You know, there are people who aren't hard core right wingers who own guns. But again, with you living in the bubble you live in, I wouldn't expect you to understand.


And many of those support reasonable gun control measures.

I'm not American but I'm a gun owner (3 of them, to be precise). It's been a while now but I used to visit gun ranges a lot when I went to the US and needed to stay current (besides a hunter I was a competitive target and IPSC shooter) and found all kinds of people. From the stereotypical froth-at-the-mouth hardcore rightwinger to just about every kind of person. I even ran into a vegan girl once who was into popping holes in targets.

In my absolutely not-scientific approach I found a lot of support for the kind of gun control laws that are enacted in other countries and that me and many others follow partly because we have to, but also because we know it makes our country, town and neighborhood safer. Minor inconveniences in the grand scheme of things.

I was also told that any talk of gun control, however reasonable, in a gun environment gets you the traitor and fifth column treatment more often than not.
 
salttee
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:13 am

Slug71 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Has anybody else noticed that Slug is proposing the creation of a government agency to certify the mental health of citizens?

What could go wrong with that?


I am advocating no such thing.

Then how do you determine who is sane and who is not sane?
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:01 am

Slug71 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
You're right. Proof that our gun laws work. Especially considering gun ownership has dramatically increased. :thumbsup:

No, we're still an extreme outlier in the civilized world in terms of gun deaths


Wrong.


Our gun homicide rate is nearly 10x Canada, or 50x Germany or the UK. Must be the Canadian discipline :rotfl:
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:13 pm

Slug71 wrote:
There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. U.S. population 324,059,091 as of Wednesday, June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year.:

Do the math you say; er.... I suggest you try again.

The number you are looking for is .....0.01%, but no worries - you were only out by a factor of 10,000.

Anybody could make a teensy weensy little mistake like that. :rotfl:
I promised myself I'd leave before the party turned ugly. I would quit at 1000 !
Here I am stuck at 994; each time I'm tempted to post, I find myself wondering who will even read it / what is the point?
Or maybe I've just got nothing left to say.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:30 pm

salttee wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
salttee wrote:
Has anybody else noticed that Slug is proposing the creation of a government agency to certify the mental health of citizens?

What could go wrong with that?


I am advocating no such thing.

Then how do you determine who is sane and who is not sane?


Medical records are not shared in the NIKS system.

MaverickM11 wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
No, we're still an extreme outlier in the civilized world in terms of gun deaths


Wrong.


Our gun homicide rate is nearly 10x Canada, or 50x Germany or the UK. Must be the Canadian discipline :rotfl:


And Canada's population is 35 million. Germany 90 million. UK 70 million.
US 330 million!

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. U.S. population 324,059,091 as of Wednesday, June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year.:

Do the math you say; er.... I suggest you try again.

The number you are looking for is .....0.01%, but no worries - you were only out by a factor of 10,000.

Anybody could make a teensy weensy little mistake like that. :rotfl:


I didn't write it. Regardless, It's still very low.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:57 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
Slug71 wrote:

YOU do NOT understand the meaning of "Well regulated militia" as written in the constitution!
WE THE PEOPLE WERE THE MILITIA! The US had NO army or defense force at the time. "Well regulated" means well armed and trained to be able to go to war.

You should read the forms N-400 for US Naturalization. Right in there is a question asking if you would take up arms to defend the country.
The second amendment literally protects our entire constitution.

Again, you are more than welcome to move to a country that outlaws or has strict laws on guns. I bet the farmers and many citizens of South Africa wish they had our second amendment. Especially now as they prepare to run out of water.


So if 'well-regulated' means 'well-armed' (highly debatable), and 'militia' means 'the people', then we ask the question: are all people well-armed, trained and able to go to war? Seems not, what with obesity, guns not being mandatory, no training having been given or ever been mandatory, no idea how you would call people to war and how you would organise them. Surely the government should organise mandatory training for firearms, training for service (almost like conscription but not actually serving, just prepared) and whip the population into healthier practices so that there aren't so many obese people. None of those things happen, but they, or something similar, should be in place to uphold the 2nd amendment as you define it.

Also, the constitution was written so long ago that it's debatable whether it's relevant for what you consider its original intent to have been. The USA is under no threat of invasion, the military is now the largest in the world by far, neither neighbour will invade and people with guns aren't going to do anything against the most likely threats (i.e. nuclear weapons). Do you desperately need people to be armed with guns for the protection of the current state? Is it worth the very high cost in lives for something that is extremely unlikely to happen?

As a PS, can you source anywhere, especially from the timeframe when the constitution was written where 'well-regulated' means well-armed'? Seems suspect to me.

And I'm also awaiting a response about what constitutes 'arms'. Surely a US citizen should be allowed to bear nuclear arms, and prohibition from doing so violates the 2nd amendment?


The 2A also ensures our right to self defense. It's pretty clear and not up for debate. Going to the range would be considered training.

Nuclear weapons would be a weapon of mass destruction. Therefore restricted and not covered under the 2A seeing as there was no bombs/explosives at the time.
 
estorilm
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:59 pm

salttee wrote:
estorilm wrote:
People like to forget the fact that there's already ~300 MILLION GUNS floating around US right now.

Future gun control, purchasing limitations, even bans (even bans on certain types!) aren't going to do a single thing.

The bottom line is that you'd have to "round up" and TAKE guns away from people, melt them down, and reduce that 300m number to something manageable where it's actually difficult for someone to get their hands on a firearm.

All of what I just said in the above paragraph is completely impossible and will NEVER happen, there would be riots (and mass shootings) - everyone would lose their minds.

320 million people, ~300 million guns. All you need is ONE of each to get one of your shooting events, massacres, etc.
I hate to sound so pessimistic, but yes - it is impossible to stop, we passed the point of no return decades ago, probably a century ago. Sure - basic gun control laws make sense (I mean you can't just be giving away ARs to crazy people) but sadly if said crazy person wants a gun, they probably already have one or know where to grab one.

People really need to be more vigilant about mental health, disorders, signals, signs, etc.. especially those in a position to make an impact (teachers, professors, parents, hospitals, doctors, etc) there should be a system in place to tag at-risk individuals and get them checked out, helped out, etc.

Beyond that - sure, fight fire with fire. I think teachers should be armed, maybe some in public transit positions, etc. Luckily transit systems typically have civilians with concealed permits all over the place these days already, but taking these people out before they have a chance to go on a prolonged rampage is definitely helpful.

I don't know - the numbers just seem blatantly obvious to me, what am I missing? Ban every gun sale in America right this second, what's your plan for the nearly 1:1 gun-to-citizen ratio that already exists? Sure propose restrictions on future sales, I don't see that as a 2nd amendment issue, but there's no way you can take what's already out there without some major problems - and would be blatantly unconstitutional as well.

So your argument is that we shouldn't try to reduce the number of guns because there's so many guns? That's some inventive logic. And your thinly veiled threats of civil insurrection are laughable.

There is no need to "round up" and TAKE guns away from people" there are plenty of ways to apply pressure to remove the completely unnecessary automatic and semi automatic military weapons from the country. If the manufacturers of pistols are made responsible for the casualties they inflict, that problem will also dwindle to an eventual irrelevancy. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Your logic would lead us to legalize burglary because there are so many burglars already out there. Your constitutional argument will soon fall by the wayside.

Nope - my argument is simply that everything you're proposing to do is entirely pointless. You don't need to freak out at me because "I'm not trying hard enough" or "well, it has to start somewhere" :roll:

Throw any solution at me and I'll ALWAYS be able to tell you "okay so what, there's 300 million guns floating around still - you wanted to stop that one guy who shot up a school, he just needed one of them." That's a fact. I'm not even taking a position here, just trying to remind you - since you seem to feel that you've got some easy solution to fix all these problems. The bottom line is that whatever anyone is proposing, it's gotta involve addressing the immense number of guns which already exist - and the point in my previous post was that I feel such actions would be unconstitutional. I never said if I thought that was right or wrong, just (again) stating the fact that you're seeing massive backlash and 2nd amendment rights discussions about something as stupid as banning the sales of ARs, how the hell do you think you're ever going to pass a law allowing the government to ROUND UP existing, legally-purchased firearms?

Also your burglary analogy is pathetic, seriously? It has nothing to do with the number of guns floating around. Cute trying to relate my position to somehow justifying an illegal act such as burglary? I actually think we are on the same page about a few things, I'm just playing devils advocate here and don't see how much of what you say will a) ever happen, and b) what it'll accomplish anyways. I'm fully acknowledging there's a problem, however.

You know full well that if every gun was taken off the shelf (as well as all illegal gun sales) at this very moment, that mass shootings would still occur. If anything, criminals would immediately come out of the woodwork and start snatching up guns. That's NO situation we'd ever want to find ourselves in.
Last edited by estorilm on Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JJJ
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:04 pm

Slug71 wrote:

And Canada's population is 35 million. Germany 90 million. UK 70 million.
US 330 million!


Do you know what "rate" means?
 
estorilm
Posts: 400
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Re: Kentucky School Shooting Is 11th of Year. It’s Jan. 23.

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:06 pm

Slug71 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
We need mental health system taken care of and some basic firearms education in school would be a good place to start.

Mental health is not part of the gun problem, certainly far less than long arms are.


Yes mental health is part of the problem. A gun is just a tool. Most gun related deaths are suicide. To go out and do mass murders is a psychological problem. Long arms kill less people than knives or hammers.

A big part of the problem is also the lack of discipline these days.

EXACTLY.

Someone waking up in the morning and deciding "hey! - I'm gonna kill a bunch of people today" IS A PROBLEM.

Do you really care how he's going to do it? And even so, are you going to place the blame on said object? Car, bomb, aircraft, gun, knife, whatever.. Those objects will always exist, I don't see what's wrong with (trying to) address the actual core problem here!

Regardless - at the very least, mental health is certainly PART of the problem. :roll:

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