bhxdtw
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Chinese train route to London

Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:32 am

Hi guys, I have a couple questions regarding the '' new silk road '' rail route from China to Barking in London.

Does the Chinese locomotive actually end up in London or is there multiple locomotive changes through out the journey?
What about the crew, do they stay with the train throughout the trip?

I'm really interested in this kinda stuff!

Thanx
 
af773atmsp
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:44 am

I would assume there are crew changes. So one crew does a certain segment, they stop and change crews, and repeat that process. As for the locomotives I'm not sure. Are there gauge changes, and if there are can the locomotive change gauges?
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anrec80
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:27 am

bhxdtw wrote:
Hi guys, I have a couple questions regarding the '' new silk road '' rail route from China to Barking in London.

Does the Chinese locomotive actually end up in London or is there multiple locomotive changes through out the journey?
What about the crew, do they stay with the train throughout the trip?

I'm really interested in this kinda stuff!

Thanx


That would be dependent on the routing. The likeliest one to succeed - via Russia, but Russia has wider railway gauge. At least twice, they would need to change not only locomotives, but also bodges on the carriages, or re-load the containers on the border. Plus, different segments of Russian rail network have different voltage standards (somewhere it's 3KV DC, somewhere 1500V DC, newer electrification is 25KV AC), hence locomotive changes are inevitable. Even Russian domestic trains on Trans-Siberian mainline change locomotives a few times during the long journey. Locomotive crews change regularly (Russian health and safety requirements), though passenger train crews are the same all along, including on trips from Moscow to Vladivostok and back.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:15 pm

bhxdtw wrote:
Hi guys, I have a couple questions regarding the '' new silk road '' rail route from China to Barking in London.

Does the Chinese locomotive actually end up in London or is there multiple locomotive changes through out the journey?
What about the crew, do they stay with the train throughout the trip?

I'm really interested in this kinda stuff!

Thanx

A variable gauge system allows railway vehicles in a train to travel across a break of gauge caused by two railway networks with differing track gauges.

For through-operation, a train must be equipped with special trucks holding variable gauge wheelsets containing a variable gauge axle (VGA). The gauge is altered by driving the train through a gauge changer or gauge changing facility.

As the train passes through the gauge changer, the wheels are unlocked, moved closer together, or further apart, and are then re-locked

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge

I would expect both crew and locomotives to change numerous times during the journey.
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Here I am stuck at 994; each time I'm tempted to post, I find myself wondering who will even read it / what is the point?
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WIederling
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:34 pm

bhxdtw wrote:
Hi guys, I have a couple questions regarding the '' new silk road '' rail route from China to Barking in London.

Does the Chinese locomotive actually end up in London or is there multiple locomotive changes through out the journey?
What about the crew, do they stay with the train throughout the trip?


everything is changed on the way. repeatedly.
You have the gauge change in and out of Russia. You have various signaling differences.
What you get is timetabled passenger or container service between China and Europe.
Murphy is an optimist
 
anrec80
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:42 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
bhxdtw wrote:
Hi guys, I have a couple questions regarding the '' new silk road '' rail route from China to Barking in London.

Does the Chinese locomotive actually end up in London or is there multiple locomotive changes through out the journey?
What about the crew, do they stay with the train throughout the trip?

I'm really interested in this kinda stuff!

Thanx

A variable gauge system allows railway vehicles in a train to travel across a break of gauge caused by two railway networks with differing track gauges.

For through-operation, a train must be equipped with special trucks holding variable gauge wheelsets containing a variable gauge axle (VGA). The gauge is altered by driving the train through a gauge changer or gauge changing facility.

As the train passes through the gauge changer, the wheels are unlocked, moved closer together, or further apart, and are then re-locked

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_gauge

I would expect both crew and locomotives to change numerous times during the journey.


Yes, in some passenger services variable gauge is used - in Europe mostly (e.g. between Spain and France), where carriages aren’t heavy. I am not sure how they handle heavy freight - does it involve reloading? AFAIK Russians don’t use variable gauge equipment - they just change train bodgies on the borders for international services - both Western and Eastern, to China. Both Russian and Chinese rail operator do have services between Moscow and Beijing, it takes about a week. One runs through Mongolia, the other - uses different routing via Manchuria.
 
WIederling
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:51 am

anrec80 wrote:
Yes, in some passenger services variable gauge is used - in Europe mostly (e.g. between Spain and France), where carriages aren’t heavy. I am not sure how they handle heavy freight - does it involve reloading? AFAIK Russians don’t use variable gauge equipment - they just change train bodgies on the borders for international services - both Western and Eastern, to China. Both Russian and Chinese rail operator do have services between Moscow and Beijing, it takes about a week. One runs through Mongolia, the other - uses different routing via Manchuria.


container trains are cross loaded. ( not looked at freight cars for general cargo.)
passenger trains get axle/bogie changes ( like Berlin to Moscow. Trans-Siberian Railway siding to China. )
see https://www.google.com/search?q=transsib+gauge+change
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:21 pm

Interesting, what about the gap between cars and platform. Wouldn't it be easy to just transfer passengers?
 
BestWestern
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:43 pm

For passengers, you step off one train, pass customs and immigration and typically step onto another train. Sometimes you get back onto the original train on the far side of the border.

It is very rare for the engine and crew to operate in another country (China - Russia for example)
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:43 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Interesting, what about the gap between cars and platform. Wouldn't it be easy to just transfer passengers?

The only "passengers" will be illegal immigrants clinging on to the underside of various wagons. :rotfl:
I promised myself I'd leave before the party turned ugly. I would quit at 1000 !
Here I am stuck at 994; each time I'm tempted to post, I find myself wondering who will even read it / what is the point?
Or maybe I've just got nothing left to say.
 
WIederling
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:45 pm

BestWestern wrote:
For passengers, you step off one train, pass customs and immigration and typically step onto another train. Sometimes you get back onto the original train on the far side of the border.

It is very rare for the engine and crew to operate in another country (China - Russia for example)


Berlin <> Moscow you stay in the train. That has been the case for decades.

same for the gauge swap going from Russia to Mongolia/China ( going on what I could find). Passengers stay in the cars.
https://nomadicboys.com/changing-wheels ... mongolian/
traction is swapped out. usually. / much more difficult to change gauge on engines.
though automatic change for Talgo trains has been installed at the Poland/Belarus border.
( just like going from France to Spain via Talgo. )
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Bostrom
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:13 pm

BestWestern wrote:
It is very rare for the engine and crew to operate in another country (China - Russia for example)


Might be rare in Asia, but very common in Europe nowadays.
 
anrec80
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:54 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Interesting, what about the gap between cars and platform. Wouldn't it be easy to just transfer passengers?

The only "passengers" will be illegal immigrants clinging on to the underside of various wagons. :rotfl:


In Europe - yes, that has shown to be the case. Between China and Russia - there is almost no illegal migration. Russians don’t have a reputation as biggest violators of immigration regime in Europe either.
 
seb146
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:23 am

I just watched a YouTube video of a family who traveled by train from London to Beijing. The video only showed highlights, but they did it. Since they went east, I imagine going west is possible. They did show carriages doing a gauge change somewhere. Probably between Russia and Mongolia. They went through Ulaanbaatar.
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tommy1808
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:10 am

anrec80 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Russians don’t have a reputation as biggest violators of immigration regime in Europe either.


Part of that will be due to relative easy many Russians can get a resident permit for the EU, since they have some German ancestor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Germans, In total about 3 Million so far.

Back to topic: Russia and China have a significant wider structure gauge, most easy to see on bi-level passenger trains that don´t have to curve in much at the top in Russia, but do in EU. The UK even has less room.

best regards
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:41 am

Дорогая, товарищ Томас....

SheikhDjibouti most definitely did NOT write....

Russians don’t have a reputation as biggest violators of immigration regime in Europe either.


:thumbsup:
I promised myself I'd leave before the party turned ugly. I would quit at 1000 !
Here I am stuck at 994; each time I'm tempted to post, I find myself wondering who will even read it / what is the point?
Or maybe I've just got nothing left to say.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:00 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Дорогая, товарищ Томас...:


right, that was anrec80....
sorry

best regards
Thomas
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PanHAM
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:18 pm

Cross reading thissome guys worry about gauge changes but no one cares that the catenary Systems along the route have different voltage / electrricity frequencies. Furthermore, each and eevyr locomotive and cars must be certified for the rails it uses.
Not even the shadow of a Train having left China will be the same when the cars arrove in London or any way else in Europe.
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anrec80
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:34 am

PanHAM wrote:
Cross reading thissome guys worry about gauge changes but no one cares that the catenary Systems along the route have different voltage / electrricity frequencies. Furthermore, each and eevyr locomotive and cars must be certified for the rails it uses.
Not even the shadow of a Train having left China will be the same when the cars arrove in London or any way else in Europe.


Locomotives generally don’t cross borders, those where gauge changes at least. Even inside Russia there are segments with different voltages. Between and around Moscow and St. Petersburg they have 3KV DC, in most other areas - 25KV. They have dual-voltage locomotives, or simply change the locomotive.
 
keuleatr72
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:44 am

One of the container terminals in Duisburg is getting a train from China 3 times a week. And usually it is an electric engine built by Siemens (Vectron) from the polish company PKP which pulled the train from the eastern border of Poland all the way to Duisburg.
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PanHAM
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:41 am

anrec80 wrote:
PanHAM wrote:
Cross reading thissome guys worry about gauge changes but no one cares that the catenary Systems along the route have different voltage / electrricity frequencies. Furthermore, each and eevyr locomotive and cars must be certified for the rails it uses.
Not even the shadow of a Train having left China will be the same when the cars arrove in London or any way else in Europe.


Locomotives generally don’t cross borders, those where gauge changes at least. Even inside Russia there are segments with different voltages. Between and around Moscow and St. Petersburg they have 3KV DC, in most other areas - 25KV. They have dual-voltage locomotives, or simply change the locomotive.


It is called multiple Systems locomotivwa and it is quite common These days that one loco pulls a Container Train from Austria or Switzerland all the way to Rotterdam. Wheel truck changes to different gauges usually dont happen on freight cars. Cross loading of the Containers is more efficient.

Overall and cost wise, the System works because a lot of Asian and Eastern European Labor is involved.
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Channex757
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:53 pm

https://www.vagabondjourney.com/horgos- ... -new-city/

This gives you an idea of the money and power China is investing. The China-Kazakhstan border on the route is the site of an immense new dry port facility for loading and unloading containers onto trains. They even funded a new city the size of New York to be built from scratch for workers, and designated an Economic Zone for local manufacturing.

A lot of Chinese money is being committed to this project.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:31 am

With all the work involved getting between A and B I am suprised they make a profit.
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PhilBy
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:34 pm

ps the term for a train wheelset is bogie, not bodgie.

Back in the pre-standardisation days some ttrains were equipped with multiple gauge bogies. maybe there's a new market.
 
WIederling
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:13 pm

PhilBy wrote:
ps the term for a train wheelset is bogie, not bodgie.

Back in the pre-standardisation days some ttrains were equipped with multiple gauge bogies. maybe there's a new market.


Long established.
you have gauge changes from Europe/France to Spain and Europe to Russia.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... y-map3.jpg

passenger trains get axles or bogies changed or are ( very modern ) autochangers
like the Talgo trains.
Freight either change bogies or get cross loaded.
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flyingturtle
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Re: Chinese train route to London

Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:41 pm

Just adding some tidbits... there are more things that change when crossing from one country to the other:

- signaling system (and any train control system): ETCS and whatever they have in the country
- the allowed cross-section of a railcar: British railcars are slimmer than European ones; the oldest variant of the ICE train belongs to the widest railcars in Europe (and can't stop at French stations for that reason)
- power frequency and voltage
- and then, locomotives operating in both Germany and Switzerland have two sets of pantographs: Germany has less curvy railway lines, enabling them to set masts for the overhead wire further apart, and furthermore enabling them to use a broader zig-zag-pattern of the catenary wire. Hilly Switzerland has more curves, and thus power line masts are less spaced, with a smaller room for the zig-zagging power line. So, the Germans use a 2 meter pantograph, while the Swiss have 1.6 meters.

Here a photo of a model ICE 1 train with a German and a Swiss pantograph on the roof: http://www.spurweite-tt.ch/images/Tillig-ICE-CH.jpg

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