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sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:13 pm

Ok so the Amristar is one exception! The other 25 or so points of the post tell a rather rosy picture.

easyJet have added to the GLA base. Their portfolio is very Brits abroad and seem to be confident in GLA sending Glaswegians away on holiday. As do Jet2 whose base does very well I'm told and recruited over 100 staff last year for the summer rush.

Ryanair doesn't always win against the competition. Are we blaming Brexit for the Timisoara base closure?

The GLA FR scenario is a sad one but it was a tiny one aircraft base. Lots of good news. Lots of strong figures.

Ryanair have closed one base but between WIZZAIR, Ryanair and easyJet I'd estimate that the equivalent of a dozen Glasgow bases have been added to the UK as they have all added aircraft.

The fact is BA, easyJet and Dart Group have all reported increasing passenger numbers and show the market to be buoyant.

Here's the Scotsman's take on it. GLA and EDI have recently had their busiest month EVER. Glasgow also had its busiest Christmas just months ago
https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport ... -1-4528960
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Arion640
Posts: 1037
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:25 pm

sevenair wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
sevenair wrote:

A bit like remoaners and ‘chlorine chicken’ you mean?


As others have pointed out, the chlorinated chicken issue is about being forced to adopt weaker regulatory standards to satisfy larger trade partners in the hope of getting a deal. Post-Brexit deals will require accepting US standards instead of EU policy, and if you think America First DC is going to give a damn about London's concerns, good luck to you. I'd personally be more worried about the hormone-filled beef and milk, than about unhygienically processed chicken.

How does that compare to FR moving from GLA to EDI anyway? All we can gather is that the weaker pound (weaker than it was against the Euro a year ago) is affecting travel patterns in the UK, causing consolidation. Spin it however you want, 20 routes being cut with 5 moving and 11 being added to EDI still amounts to a 20% reduction in destinations from Scotland. "Global" Britain indeed.

Hardly complicated stuff.


Everything is possible. The consumer will choose which products it uses and which it avoids. We will wait and see.

Airlines seem to be doing a roaring trade. I don't know of any significant change in travel patterns. Let's have a quick look at what's been going on over the last year:

Yes, terminally I'll Monarch finally bit the dust, but airport and airlines are doing very well. Doesn't EDI use the pound? Is it not strange how the 'weak' pound impacts GLA but not EDI?

According to a quick glance at FR's press page, they've released what look like dozens of new UK routes since Brexit.

Ryanair's biggest base remains in STN, which is in the U.K., uses the pound and is leaving the EU too

Does easyJet not get hit by the 'weak' pound as they've added frames to MAN, EDI, GLA, LGW and BRS all of use the pound. MAN and LTN were their two biggest growing bases. They've added SOU as a new destination

I notice you neglect to mention that EDI is now overflowing with passengers including new routes from many airlines. Several transatlantic and MEB3 airlines (in addition to GLA's double daily 777 to DBX service).

EDI his passenger records last year, despite Brexit of course

UK-Iceland hit 1 million passengers for the first time ever

Jet2/Dart just released a very healthy set of results, despite Brexit.

Look to booming MAN with new TATL links, strong MEB3 links, new links to China and beyond.

WIZZAIR have added a new base with new routes from LTN including TLV and KEF so it's not just a matter of them Brexit proofing themselves.

Blue Air seem to be doing ok out of their relatively new LPL base.

EK has added STN flights.

BA has added new routes from London, returned to Bristol and offer a programme from MAN

Norwegian is expanding in the UK (a mature market) unlike ANY of the many countries they serve.

Air India had added a new Amritsar link.

China Southern have added Quindao to Brexit Britain.

Jet2 added 23 new routes to their UK network last year, with 2 new bases and leasing in A330s to cope with demand.

Last August the UK was the biggest market IN THE WORLD in terms of international seat capacity

Europe to Asia Far East and dominated by the UK and China, a market which grew 6% last year

UK-Spain market grew at highest rate in 20 years delivering Spain's biggest amount of tourists by far

Oman Air added its second UK service last year

Two of three new long haul bases for Primera Air are in England

Ryanair have added a new UK route to Rimini

Lyviv has been added by WIZZAIR

Qantas will start a new PER-LHR service this year. What was it you said about global Britain? Doesn't get much global than that's does it?

British Airways added its longest non-stop flight to Santiago. Again, global much?

It seems we have many more global links for a new global Britain. But yes. Ryanair moving to EDI is the end of world.


Qatar adds DOH-Cardiff. #despitebrexit
319 320 321 346 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:50 am

Toyota to build new Auris in Brexit Britain.

#DespiteBrexit
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Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 585
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:28 am

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86786

Time and time again we've seen this. "Team UK" does absolutely nothing, leaving all the running to the EU. Mr Barnier's negotiating team then moves in to fill the vacuum, whence the UK establishment bitches like mad because they don't like what the EU has produced.

In the particular case of the first draft of the Withdrawal Agreement, the UK was given every opportunity to come up with its own proposals.

This was set out in December's Joint Report which re-emphasised the UK's commitment to protecting North-South cooperation and repeated its guarantee of avoiding a hard border. Any future arrangements, the report said, must be compatible with these overarching requirements.

At the time, it was intended that the UK should achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship, details of which it has been pressed to provide for some time. In the event that this was not possible, the idea was then that the UK should propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland.

It was only in the absence of agreed solutions – arising from one or the other of these activities – that the UK agreed "to maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 (Good Friday) Agreement".

As it turns out, the UK has not produced any formal proposals and has shown no signs of delivering anything which looks even close to a solution that the EU would be prepared to agree. And it is in the precise context that the Commission has decided to produce its draft which, it says, "translates" the Joint Report and Joint Technical note into a legal text".

What this amounts to is an eight-page protocol (which includes nearly two pages of recital), is what is being called a "backstop" option. And this small addition has the potential to blow the Brexit negotiations apart for, without agreement on this, there will be no transition.

In the protocol, Northern Ireland continues to be part of a functioning Single Market, joining a "common regulatory area" with the rest of the Union, thereby constituting "an area without internal borders in which the free movement of goods is ensured and North-South cooperation protected".

In jargon terms, the "common regulatory area" is the technical term for the Single Market (or internal market, if you prefer), although it has not been used before by EU institutions in this context.

The term made a single, guest appearance in 2007 in relation to the treaty creating the Energy Community extending the EU energy market to its southern European neighbours within what the Commission described as "a common regulatory area with shared trade, transmission and environmental rules".

In relation to the Single Market, I first used the term on 4 May 2016 and again a few days later. It is interesting to see the term now lodged firmly in the Union lexicon.

Of course, there is much more that Ireland in the whole draft, which runs to 119 pages, and must be agreed by the 27 Member States before it is formally put to the UK.

The whole thing would be (and doubtless will be) much longer, by a factor of many more pages, if the Annexes to the Irish Protocol were complete. In Annex 2, for instance, will be specified the entire list of EU law that will apply in the common regulatory area, aimed at ensuring the free movement of goods and protecting North-South cooperation.

Lifted from the EU acquis will be the laws which cover the free movement of goods, customs controls, VAT and excise duties, sanitary and phytosanitary requirements, the production and marketing of agricultural and fisheries products, wholesale electricity markets, environmental protection in relation to the control of the import into, release into, or transport within the Union of substances or material, or plant or animal species, and State aid.

By reference to the EEA acquis, this will be a list of about 5,000 measures, which will apply in perpetuity to Northern Ireland.

But it doesn't stop there. The Agreement also requires that customs duties on imports and exports, and any charges having equivalent effect, "shall be prohibited between the Union and the United Kingdom in respect of Northern Ireland. Furthermore, quantitative restrictions on imports and exports and all measures having equivalent effect shall be prohibited.

If I understand this correctly, it opens a huge, tariff-free back door into the UK where any goods from the rest of the EU can pour into Ireland and thence to Great Britain via Northern Ireland.

With that, we are seeing the crunch point in the negotiations, as was always going to be the case. This is the point where May's stupidity, in committing to leave the Single Market without thinking through the consequences, finally meets reality.

Her ill-considered action meant that – short of non-existent technical solutions – there was going to be a "hard" border in Ireland, unless the UK agreed to move it to the Irish Sea, creating the so-called wet border, an outcome which has been evident for some time. And if Mrs May refuses that solution, she has on her hands an unsolvable problem. Strangely enough, I wrote in a blogpost recently, unsolvable means unsolvable. That is proving to be the case.

There is absolutely no point, therefore – as she did at PMQs yesterday in the prime minister rejecting, in toto the Irish provision. The draft legal text, she said:

… would, if implemented, undermine the UK common market and threaten the constitutional integrity of the UK by creating a customs and regulatory border down the Irish Sea, and no UK Prime Minister could ever agree to it. I will be making it crystal clear to President Juncker and others that we will never do so. We are committed to ensuring that we see no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, but the December text also made it clear that there should continue to be trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, as there is today.

This is only something which her government agreed with the EU in December and, true to that agreement, the Commission has included (in Article 15 of the Protocol) a provision which states that,

Should a subsequent agreement between the Union and the United Kingdom which allows addressing the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, avoiding a hard border and protecting the 1998 Agreement in all its dimensions, become applicable after the entry into force of the Withdrawal Agreement, this Protocol shall not apply or shall cease to apply, as the case may be, in whole or in part, from the date of entry into force of such subsequent agreement and in accordance with that agreement.

It remains entirely open for the UK to come up with its own proposals and negotiate a separate solution – not that any such solution exists. But Mrs May has boxed herself into a corner and she only has herself to blame.

If things get too bad, however, she can always turn to the "safeguards" in Article 13. Presumably, with unintended irony, the Commission has copied out almost word-for-word parts of Articles 112 and 113 of the EEA Agreement, covering safeguard measures. We thus see:

If the application of this Protocol leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties liable to persist, the Union or the United Kingdom may unilaterally take appropriate measures. Such safeguard measures shall be restricted with regard to their scope and duration to what is strictly necessary in order to remedy the situation. Priority shall be given to such measures as will least disturb the functioning of this Protocol.

This, of course, is a measure so many pundits have been telling us could only apply to the likes of Liechtenstein, because it is such a small country, and could not possibly apply to the UK. Yet here we find it, the catch-all provision, without which no treaty should be considered compete.
 
JJJ
Posts: 2727
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:30 am

sevenair wrote:
Toyota to build new Auris in Brexit Britain.

#DespiteBrexit


Considering that all three Japanese automakers got a written guarantee (which the government refused to publish) that they would be compensated if Brexit changes the terms of market access it's not really that surprising isn't it?

It just means the taxpayer will pony up the difference.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 585
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:50 pm

http://disq.us/p/1qjlhug
A fun link, after the fuss May made yesterday :)
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7569
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:06 pm

JJJ wrote:
It just means the taxpayer will pony up the difference.


And that would exceed the mere higher cost, as those cars are then made with tax payer direct cash subsidies.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:51 pm

Amusing watching the liberal remoaners bitching about spending a fraction of what we spend on membership of the EU just so that they can sell their products to us yet forget their Marxist sympathising dear leader would do exactly that. Nationalise everything. Tax everything.

It makes me chuckle. A bit like the dems who claim Trump is illegitimate as a president as he wasn't a politician yet those very same people then champion Oprah running for president in the next election.

An odd yet eternally amusing bunch.
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
JJJ
Posts: 2727
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:39 am

sevenair wrote:
Amusing watching the liberal remoaners bitching about spending a fraction of what we spend on membership of the EU just so that they can sell their products to us yet forget their Marxist sympathising dear leader would do exactly that. Nationalise everything. Tax everything.


It's cute that you think that anyone that doesn't buy the massive load of bullship being spewed from the Cakeist brigade is a liberal marxist.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1460
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:09 am

sevenair wrote:

It makes me chuckle. A bit like the dems who claim Trump is illegitimate as a president as he wasn't a politician yet those very same people then champion Oprah running for president in the next election.

An odd yet eternally amusing bunch.


Hmmm?

The Trump illegitimacy claims are related to alleged Russian interference on his behalf. The Republicans are the ones who use his non-political background as an excuse for his more questionable language and behaviour.

There doesn't seem to be anything, real or imagined, linking Oprah and her associates to Russian officials, so your comparison doesn't make any sense.

But keep them coming. We can always use more examples of the logic and intellectual reasoning that motivated Leavers to vote the way they did. Losing the plot entirely seems to be a pretty accurate predictor.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 9898
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:55 am

So sevenair, are you happy that UK made cars will still have to follow every single EU car regulation ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:18 am

Aesma wrote:
So sevenair, are you happy that UK made cars being sold to the EU marketwill still have to follow every single EU car regulation ? (Fixed it for you)


Cars sold will have to meet criteria of all markets they serve. Just as Nissans going to the EU and UK have different specifications but have to meet the same EU standards. The same Nissan will have to meet standards of Canada, Morocco or South Africa. Car factories may produce one car but not at Qashqai's are created equal. Region, country and customer specs dictate that the Qashqai shell varies quite significantly. It's the nature of the beast. In a day where personalising cars is now very a la mode it would seem that the car business has no problem providing varying specs which vary from car to car. If I can personalise the colour of the insert on the gear shift, then rest assured car manufacturers can vary specs to suit the market.

Look at Dacia. They had to include the electronic stability’s programme for it’s EU models but didn’t have to for the Indian (Renault Duster) in terms of standards.

The Suzuki Alto for Australia came with Bluetooth connectivity on most models whereas the UK version didn’t have it as an option and an add on (Parrot) was the rather crude solution so cars differ based on markets in terms of specifications

How is this different to any car manufacturer in any country in the world?
Last edited by sevenair on Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
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tommy1808
Posts: 7569
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:19 am

sevenair wrote:
Amusing watching the liberal remoaners bitching about spending a fraction of what we spend on membership of the EU just so that they can sell their products to us yet


The 8 billion saved are already wiped out by less GDP growth. You had the market access for free, or how Boris put it: you paid penuts on for the benefits.

The illegal subsidies your government promised go on top of saving nothing.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:23 am

tommy1808 wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Amusing watching the liberal remoaners bitching about spending a fraction of what we spend on membership of the EU just so that they can sell their products to us yet


The 8 billion saved are already wiped out by less GDP growth. You had the market access for free, or how Boris put it: you paid penuts on for the benefits.

The illegal subsidies your government promised go on top of saving nothing.

Best regards
Thomas


Please provide full details of the ‘illegal subsidies’. You must have full details of the them if you’re able to make such a claim.
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7569
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:37 am

sevenair wrote:

Please provide full details of the ‘illegal subsidies’. You must have full details of the them if you’re able to make such a claim.


Bold from a guy that doesn't back up his claims even when asked multiple times.

Giving tax payer money to manufacturers to enable lower sales prices are illegal subsidies. That is common knowledge, no sources needed.

And funny that you bring up marixism, considering
how much you ignore reality to stick to doctrine.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:40 am

tommy1808 wrote:
sevenair wrote:

Please provide full details of the ‘illegal subsidies’. You must have full details of the them if you’re able to make such a claim.


Bold from a guy that doesn't back up his claims even when asked multiple times.

Giving tax payer money to manufacturers to enable lower sales prices are illegal subsidies. That is common knowledge, no sources needed.

And funny that you bring up marixism, considering
how much you ignore reality to stick to doctrine.

Best regards
Thomas


Have the 'subsidies' be made? If so when were they made? How much were they for? What did they guarantee? What were the terms? Were they loans? Was it a subsidy at all? As a tax payer I'd love to know. Perhaps you could provide evidence comrade?
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
JJJ
Posts: 2727
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:42 am

sevenair wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
sevenair wrote:

Please provide full details of the ‘illegal subsidies’. You must have full details of the them if you’re able to make such a claim.


Bold from a guy that doesn't back up his claims even when asked multiple times.

Giving tax payer money to manufacturers to enable lower sales prices are illegal subsidies. That is common knowledge, no sources needed.

And funny that you bring up marixism, considering
how much you ignore reality to stick to doctrine.

Best regards
Thomas


Have the 'subsidies' be made? If so when were they made? How much were they for? What did they guarantee? What were the terms? Were they loans? Was it a subsidy at all? As a tax payer I'd love to know. Perhaps you could provide evidence comrade?


They won't tell you.

Government refuses to publish Nissan letter after deliberations
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 11676.html

Same deal for all three Japanese manufacturers in the UK.

But in any case, there are no terms because it all hinges on the UK-EU deal. If only May actually had a position this would be easier.
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:52 am

May has offered 'guarantees' and 'reassurances'. At this time I'm not aware of any payment having been made. If we have left we are free to set our own rules when it comes to 'state aid' as you put it.

Well, brother Corbyn actually came out with a position this week. Perhaps May will in you eyes. To mine, it's fairly clear what she wants.
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
JJJ
Posts: 2727
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:55 am

sevenair wrote:
May has offered 'guarantees' and 'reassurances'. At this time I'm not aware of any payment having been made. If we have left we are free to set our own rules when it comes to 'state aid' as you put it.


Because, for the nth time. BREXIT HASN'T YET HAPPENED. All the sources point out at the deal being "whatever extra costs Brexit adds, we will make up for it".

And no, Britain won't be able to make their own rules on state aid. Go familiarise yourself with the WTO rules on state aid. EU rules are stronger, but it won't be a free-for-all as you seem to imply.

https://www.oxera.com/Latest-Thinking/A ... rules.aspx
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:15 pm

Oh Oxera. The people who previously reported that business subsidies in the EU are significantly higher than in the UK.

You claim EU rules are stronger. On paper perhaps yet you have no problem with Germany paying €100m to Air Berlin to stop them going bust before their last election. No mention of Ireland's paying back of hundreds of millions in Apple tax as the EU wouldn't want to annoy Ireland who they're trying to use to stop Brexit. We will also see so,etching similar with the online giants and coffee chains and their dodgy set ups in Luxembourg and Holland but very little action will be taken as the last thing they want is further dissent.

Going back to state aid, its advantages over over,stick or local producers that's the issue. If the government is (for example) given an incentive so that the car in the EU costs exactly after Brexit the same as it does now that constitute an unfair advantage and how does that distort competition?

You falsely claimed we are paying illegal state aid to car companies which is not true. Brexit hasn't happened yet indeed. Do I support paying Honda £12,000 for each car, allowing them to sell a car that costs £32,000 to produce for £20,000 indefinitely (it's totally coincidental that my figures are similar to the recent Bombardier saga)? Absolutely not and we all know that's not what would happen but I do support limited government incentives or start up support etc. That's a different story.
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7569
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:22 pm

sevenair wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
sevenair wrote:

Please provide full details of the ‘illegal subsidies’. You must have full details of the them if you’re able to make such a claim.


Bold from a guy that doesn't back up his claims even when asked multiple times.

Giving tax payer money to manufacturers to enable lower sales prices are illegal subsidies. That is common knowledge, no sources needed.

And funny that you bring up marixism, considering
how much you ignore reality to stick to doctrine.

Best regards
Thomas


Have the 'subsidies' be made?


you need to start reading more careful:

tommy1808 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
It just means the taxpayer will pony up the difference.


And that would exceed the mere higher cost, as those cars are then made with tax payer direct cash subsidies.

Best regards
Thomas


no one ever claimed they already do.

Going back to state aid, its advantages over over,stick or local producers that's the issue. If the government is (for example) given an incentive so that the car in the EU costs exactly after Brexit the same as it does now that constitute an unfair advantage and how does that distort competition?


Without Taxpayer subsidizing the additional costs, that only happen because of a unilateral UK decision, is an unfair advantage, even if the end price on the EU market is the same.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
JJJ
Posts: 2727
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:22 pm

What exactly are you babbling about? I made no claim whatsoever about Britain paying anything..... yet.

Manufacturers do have some expectations that in case they end up worse off after Brexit, they will be compensated by whatever means HMRC finds out they can exploit without infringing on WTO rules (or whatever rules the UK imposes on themselves, expect stronger rules if you want to sign a trade agreement with the EU or USA; for example).
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
sevenair wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Bold from a guy that doesn't back up his claims even when asked multiple times.

Giving tax payer money to manufacturers to enable lower sales prices are illegal subsidies. That is common knowledge, no sources needed.

And funny that you bring up marixism, considering
how much you ignore reality to stick to doctrine.

Best regards
Thomas


Have the 'subsidies' be made?


you need to start reading more careful:

tommy1808 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
It just means the taxpayer will pony up the difference.


And that would exceed the mere higher cost, as those cars are then made with tax payer direct cash subsidies.

Best regards
Thomas


no one ever claimed they already do.

Going back to state aid, its advantages over over,stick or local producers that's the issue. If the government is (for example) given an incentive so that the car in the EU costs exactly after Brexit the same as it does now that constitute an unfair advantage and how does that distort competition?


Without Taxpayer subsidizing the additional costs, that only happen because of a unilateral UK decision, is an unfair advantage, even if the end price on the EU market is the same.

best regards
Thomas


I don't agree. If the product isn't the same cost as it was pre Brexit then it would be very difficult to argue that it would be unfair. But that's my opinion as you have yours.

We don't know anything about the so called 'state aid'. It could be marketing support, r&d, regional development or anything else. It does not mean they are directly subsidising the cost of the cars directly.
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 585
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:33 pm

The Eu may have one thing or two to say about theses japaneses cars subsidies...
 
JJJ
Posts: 2727
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:55 pm

sevenair wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
sevenair wrote:

Have the 'subsidies' be made?


you need to start reading more careful:

tommy1808 wrote:

And that would exceed the mere higher cost, as those cars are then made with tax payer direct cash subsidies.

Best regards
Thomas


no one ever claimed they already do.

Going back to state aid, its advantages over over,stick or local producers that's the issue. If the government is (for example) given an incentive so that the car in the EU costs exactly after Brexit the same as it does now that constitute an unfair advantage and how does that distort competition?


Without Taxpayer subsidizing the additional costs, that only happen because of a unilateral UK decision, is an unfair advantage, even if the end price on the EU market is the same.

best regards
Thomas


I don't agree. If the product isn't the same cost as it was pre Brexit then it would be very difficult to argue that it would be unfair. But that's my opinion as you have yours.

We don't know anything about the so called 'state aid'. It could be marketing support, r&d, regional development or anything else. It does not mean they are directly subsidising the cost of the cars directly.


Well, if you'd done a bit of research you'd know just about everything you listed is eligible to be found illegal under WTO rules.

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=784

Looking no further than Boeing and Airbus (this being an aviation forum after all) here's the whole thing: R&D, marketing support, regional funds.....
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7569
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:17 pm

sevenair wrote:
I don't agree. If the product isn't the same cost as it was pre Brexit then it would be very difficult to argue that it would be unfair. .


Nothing is easier to argue. Domestic, that is car makers in the EU, see less sales if the, Yaris in this case, doesn´t get more expensive due to the higher costs. That is hard damage to the EU economy.

That would be in no way different from the Chinese Taxpayer subsidizing their Solar Panel Sales. EU Panel makers can, and do in tenders, meet the same price...... apparently that is considered an unfair business practice and leading to tariffs.

Being outside the common market quite literally has a price.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 585
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:47 pm

It seems some diplomats are a bit harsh now :)

However, it was the failure of the UK prime minister to offer any fresh thinking on avoiding a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic that received the harshest response.

May repeated a suggestion made last year that the government would mirror EU requirements on non-EU imports arriving in Britain and Northern Ireland that were destined for the rest of Europe, so there would be no need for a customs border between the UK and the union.

Alternatively, the prime minister said, there could be a technological solution that could make customs checks unnecessary on the island of Ireland and elsewhere.

One diplomat said the UK was simply not trusted enough for such arrangements to work. “The prime minister’s proposals are non starters,” he said. “Her customs idea is fantasy – we’d never do that. Mad cow disease originated on UK isles and [the country] is the biggest entry port for counterfeited goods.


“The hi-tech arrangement is sci-fi. No-one has seen it yet on Planet Earth. So back to square one on Ireland.”

May’s request for the UK to become “associate members” of EU agencies, such as the European Aviation Safety Agency, was additionally dismissed with the now familiar accusation that the UK was “cherry-picking” aspects of membership.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/02/theresa-mays-brexit-vision-dismissed-as-unrealistic-in-brussels
 
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par13del
Posts: 7719
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Mar 05, 2018 2:54 pm

Good, force her to realize the error of her ways, either have a cabinet of remainers who will campaign for remain in the negotiations or a cabinet of leavers who want to do everything themselves.
Funny thing is, that with the current business mantra of out-sourcing, the EU relevant agencies could make millions providing out-sourced services to the UK, unfortunately, that cannot be looked at now since the waters are muddy and the waves are rolling.
Last edited by par13del on Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JJJ
Posts: 2727
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:15 pm

Let's keep the news coming, this time about airlines for a change.

https://www.ft.com/content/9461157c-1f9 ... d3483b8b80

The US is offering Britain a worse “Open Skies” deal after Brexit than it had as an EU member, in a negotiating stance that would badly hit the transatlantic operating rights of British Airways and Virgin Atlantic.
 
Olddog
Topic Author
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:25 pm

I am curious to see how they will solve the ownerships rules problem ?
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:52 pm

It seems our Italian friends have given the EU a firm slap in the face.

Solidarity brothers and sisters.
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:56 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
sevenair wrote:
I don't agree. If the product isn't the same cost as it was pre Brexit then it would be very difficult to argue that it would be unfair. .


Nothing is easier to argue. Domestic, that is car makers in the EU, see less sales if the, Yaris in this case, doesn´t get more expensive due to the higher costs. That is hard damage to the EU economy.

That would be in no way different from the Chinese Taxpayer subsidizing their Solar Panel Sales. EU Panel makers can, and do in tenders, meet the same price...... apparently that is considered an unfair business practice and leading to tariffs.

Being outside the common market quite literally has a price.

best regards
Thomas


A quick search unveils no protest from you regarding the €100million cash injection (which is what it really was) nor could I find you protesting about the dodgy deals which kept Alitalia flying and which continue to do so to this day. I'm sure you'll happily provide me with quotes of your posts protesting this state aid and subsidies pay to by failed airlines. Why is that ok but provision of marketing support, start up grants and the like offends you so?

In terms of the car manufacturers 'deal' we simply aren't privy to the specifics of whatever TM has agreed.
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7569
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:06 pm

sevenair wrote:
A quick search unveils no protest from you regarding the €100million cash injection (which is what it really was) nor could I find you protesting about the dodgy deals which kept Alitalia flying and which continue to do so to this day. I'm sure you'll happily provide me with quotes of your posts protesting this state aid and subsidies pay to by failed airlines. Why is that ok but provision of marketing support, start up grants and the like offends you so?.


If you looked hard enough you would probably find me critizing both Alitalia as well as that Air Berlin should have lost traffic rights a long time ago. I.have however no problem with the loan, and neither had the EU, because that didn't subsidize an airline, it only prevented a shutdown of operations between filing for bankruptcy and finding a buyer. You know, the whole nasty layoff/stranded passenger scenario.

That is not even remotely comparable with taxpayer paid offset of trade barrier costs.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:19 am

Mad Merkel kept AB flying just long enough for the election to take place. It wouldn't look good for her to have stranded families around Europe in the summer holidays.

It's been five years since the dodgy post office deal which kept Alitalia going and it seems to have received money in addition to the EY money pumped into it. You're ok with Alitalia having billions pumped into it for years putting other euro airlines at a competitive disadvantage but seem to be the only person in the UK (apart from May) privy to the car manufacturer deal and you're not happy with it.

Will you be pressing your MEP to get Ireland to pay back the taxes owned on dodgy tech giant tax avoidance and will you also be pressing the MEP to get similar investigations into deals in Luxembourg and the Netherlands expedited and the money recovered?
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7569
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:25 am

sevenair wrote:
Mad Merkel kept AB flying just long enough for the election to take place. It wouldn't look good for her to have stranded families around Europe in the summer holidays.


considering the domestic criticism that decision has drawn that is just utter nonsense. And of course that is pure deflection, subsidizing production/marketing/export is very different from keeping an operation going until there is a new owner, for a limited amount of time. And it was EU approved. So even if it was a similar subsidy, that would simple make the difference between being in the EU and being out of it.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 585
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Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:28 am

 
JJJ
Posts: 2727
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:37 am

sevenair wrote:

Will you be pressing your MEP to get Ireland to pay back the taxes owned on dodgy tech giant tax avoidance and will you also be pressing the MEP to get similar investigations into deals in Luxembourg and the Netherlands expedited and the money recovered?


No need for that. Those cases are long and drawn out but Apple in Ireland and Amazon in Luxembourg have court decisions against them already, the Netherlands tax scheme has recently been ruled illegal also.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-neth ... SKCN1G6175
 
Arion640
Posts: 1037
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:04 am

sevenair wrote:
Mad Merkel kept AB flying just long enough for the election to take place. It wouldn't look good for her to have stranded families around Europe in the summer holidays.

It's been five years since the dodgy post office deal which kept Alitalia going and it seems to have received money in addition to the EY money pumped into it. You're ok with Alitalia having billions pumped into it for years putting other euro airlines at a competitive disadvantage but seem to be the only person in the UK (apart from May) privy to the car manufacturer deal and you're not happy with it.

Will you be pressing your MEP to get Ireland to pay back the taxes owned on dodgy tech giant tax avoidance and will you also be pressing the MEP to get similar investigations into deals in Luxembourg and the Netherlands expedited and the money recovered?


sevenair, there's a Brexit discussion going on on the civil aviation forum about Open skies, I think you may want to take a look if you haven't seen it!
319 320 321 346 388 733 738 744 752 753 763 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:18 am

Arion640 wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Mad Merkel kept AB flying just long enough for the election to take place. It wouldn't look good for her to have stranded families around Europe in the summer holidays.

It's been five years since the dodgy post office deal which kept Alitalia going and it seems to have received money in addition to the EY money pumped into it. You're ok with Alitalia having billions pumped into it for years putting other euro airlines at a competitive disadvantage but seem to be the only person in the UK (apart from May) privy to the car manufacturer deal and you're not happy with it.

Will you be pressing your MEP to get Ireland to pay back the taxes owned on dodgy tech giant tax avoidance and will you also be pressing the MEP to get similar investigations into deals in Luxembourg and the Netherlands expedited and the money recovered?


sevenair, there's a Brexit discussion going on on the civil aviation forum about Open skies, I think you may want to take a look if you haven't seen it!


Ah yes. The one where the hard remain FT claims we won't have Open Skies due to ownership issues but neglects the part about Open Skies progress and government owned MEB3 airlines? Is that the thread you're talking about?

It's been years since I studies Open Skies but I'm sure here was something about a level playing field. I wonder what the US's take is on state subsidies to failed carriers through bad loans which we all knew would never be paid back?

The U.S. has offered the U.K. a more limited “Open Skies” aviation deal after Brexit than it has as a member of the European Union, but participants expressed confidence that the lucrative transatlantic market would continue unimpeded.


What a sad existence people lead. We are leaving the EU. We are leaving the SM. Its in everyone's best interests to make things work.

Personally I can't see DL have to sell its stake in VS, nor can I see AA's joint venture with BA and access to BA's short haul network and the feed it provides being in the interest of the US. There's no way AA will ramp up frequency on BCN/MAD/CDG to the level of LHR to feed via those hubs as they'll miss out on the huge O&D on what must be one of the most premium heavy routes on earth.

Truth be told I couldn't care less about the TATL market. It's oversaturated as it is. Yields are trashy. Service is at an all time low in all cabins. My personal view is that this will be a way of limiting Norwegian's impact on the US3 but who can say.

Should I be going around telling everyone that flights won't fly on the day we leave the EU? That project fear nonsense died down for a few months but it seems it's back! Yet again there is a challenge (as we all knew there would be) and people are quick to claim that only the UK has something to lose and only the UK would suffer any negative consequences.

This is the chlorine chicken of the aviation world.
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7569
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:37 am

sevenair wrote:
We are leaving the SM. Its in everyone's best interests to make things work.


Yup, it is in everyone´s best interest to make things work. It is also more attractive for your negotiating partners to make it work a little less good for you, if they can make it work a little better for them.
And since you are the junior partner in pretty much any negotiation that counts, it will be unlikely that you get the same deal as the Elephant in the room, the EU, that is a big enough market to negotiate on eye level with everyone.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
sevenair
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:50 am

"The US also played down fears of a looming crisis."

"Both sides have a strong interest in reaching an agreement and are very close to one”.
If diversity really is our strength, why do you have such a fear of hearing diverse opinions or those who are differently opinionated?
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 585
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:49 am

https://twitter.com/OleRyborg/status/969625381283291137

To clear some strange ideas some brexiters have:

All businesses - even the food industry that risk loosing half its export to the UK - are more concerned with keeping the integrity of the internal market than any loss of UK market access #Brexit #eudk
 
tommy1808
Posts: 7569
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:04 am

sevenair wrote:
"The US also played down fears of a looming crisis."


it is sort of hard to fail to notice that they don´t say "nothing will change"

"Both sides have a strong interest in reaching an agreement and are very close to one”.


what a surprise. Did anyone claim that shutting down TATL is the only alternative to a completely free Open Sky agreement. Nope, no one did that.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
LTenEleven
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:45 pm

How will the UK deliver a frictionless border with this track record?
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fint ... 1?mode=amp
 
LTenEleven
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:25 pm

Brexit free trade deal cannot include financial services: France

https://www.afp.com/en/news/826/brexit- ... oc-1212kl1
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 5208
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:54 pm

LTenEleven wrote:
Brexit free trade deal cannot include financial services: France

https://www.afp.com/en/news/826/brexit- ... oc-1212kl1


Of course not, if the financial services are included, they need to conform to the same EU rules. We have learned from the Icesave debacle and 2008 (hopefully).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
Topic Author
Posts: 585
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:42 pm

And Barnier was the European Commissioner for Internal Market and Services for 2010–14 that had to tame the City :)

I think that gang remember very well how hard the negotiations were. They should have sent en memo to DD ...
 
LJ
Posts: 4439
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
LTenEleven wrote:
Brexit free trade deal cannot include financial services: France

https://www.afp.com/en/news/826/brexit- ... oc-1212kl1


Of course not, if the financial services are included, they need to conform to the same EU rules. We have learned from the Icesave debacle and 2008 (hopefully).


Probably not the most important reason why the French (but also the rest of the EU) doesn't want to include financial services in a free trade deal. Such a deal would mean passporting rights for the UK and that's something which is a no-go area for EU members (who already don't like the fact that London is a big player in the EUR market). Not to mention that France seems to gain from the Brexit as firms are moving some business to Paris.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 5208
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:27 pm

LJ wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
LTenEleven wrote:
Brexit free trade deal cannot include financial services: France

https://www.afp.com/en/news/826/brexit- ... oc-1212kl1


Of course not, if the financial services are included, they need to conform to the same EU rules. We have learned from the Icesave debacle and 2008 (hopefully).


Probably not the most important reason why the French (but also the rest of the EU) doesn't want to include financial services in a free trade deal. Such a deal would mean passporting rights for the UK and that's something which is a no-go area for EU members (who already don't like the fact that London is a big player in the EUR market). Not to mention that France seems to gain from the Brexit as firms are moving some business to Paris.


You are taking the real politik view and of course, this has something to do with it for some people. But I look at the stability of the Euro and the financial markets in general. For instance, the Dutch pension funds are huge, about 1,3trillion Euro, they are obliged to have their assets maintained within the EU, so that means most wealth is managed in London at the moment. After the Brexit this will be within the EU.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
LTenEleven
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:56 pm

Re: Brexit EU position Phase 2

Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:56 am

The Brits continue to dream:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43300202
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