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Dutchy
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The Netherlands a bit more modern

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:46 pm

Within the Dutch law, there is an article which says you cannot insult the King and Queen if you do, it is punishable by a maximum of five years in prison for Wimlex and if you think five years is a tad too long, you can choose to insult the Queen, only a maximum of four years. In Dutch parliament there is a debate to get rid of this law and tread them as ordinary citizens.

I would say, f*ck the Royals, long live the Republic, to start with this law. We made a small error about 200 years ago, so time to rectify it. :white:


In Dutch: https://www.nu.nl/politiek/5125298/afsc ... erbij.html
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Dahlgardo
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:20 am

Welcome to the world of hate speech laws based on group identity.
Glad you don't like'em.
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CCGPV
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:23 am

The idea of having royalty as head of state and government in 2018 is bizarre to me. Talk about being backwards.
Stay curious
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:46 am

CCGPV wrote:
The idea of having royalty as head of state and government in 2018 is bizarre to me. Talk about being backwards.


Well, it's not like being a republic is any better right now, to be honest.
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ltbewr
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:28 am

I bet no one has been prosecuted under these laws for decades. From what I see, the Dutch royalty is very well loved and respected, in turn the royals respect their citizens. This law was probably more about preventing disputing or threatening those that hold the throne and supporting others to hold it. If a law is not enforceable or not enforced, then ditch it.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:48 am

CCGPV wrote:
The idea of having royalty as head of state and government in 2018 is bizarre to me. Talk about being backwards.


Me too, even though they have less power than any other Dutch citizen (they cannot speak their own mind, all controlled by the democratic backed government). So just set this family free from their golden cages 8-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:02 am

ltbewr wrote:
I bet no one has been prosecuted under these laws for decades. From what I see, the Dutch royalty is very well loved and respected, in turn the royals respect their citizens. This law was probably more about preventing disputing or threatening those that hold the throne and supporting others to hold it. If a law is not enforceable or not enforced, then ditch it.


Yes, there have been people prosecuted for this law in recent times and convicted even: from a slab on the wrist to some jail time, and that is a problem. Furthermore, people get arrested on the grounds of this law and most a released within hours. So the police abuse this law to get rid of some peaceful protesters against the monarchy and that is dangerious.

The origin of this law lies in the 19th century, our third king, Willem III, was a moron, so he was called in the press King Gorilla.

[imghttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/04/53/19/04531961a1dd99e9ff44cbe09d2fa1d2.jpg[/img]

That is the reason we have this law now.

But in fact, in recent times, more and more people lean towards getting rid of the royals. The way they give substance to the inherent title, demands some respect - even from me, a declared Republican - but that doesn't mean we should continue to perform this little charade. Even Prince Claus (husband to Beatrix) said that The Netherlands is a Republic at heart.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:09 am

I do not see the advantage of it. If it is a King, Queen or the president of a republic, there has to be a point at which society starts protecting the institutions of a state. I really do not see the benefit of being free to personally insult the leading institutions of the government or state.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:22 am

seahawk wrote:
I do not see the advantage of it. If it is a King, Queen or the president of a republic, there has to be a point at which society starts protecting the institutions of a state. I really do not see the benefit of being free to personally insult the leading institutions of the government or state.


But he will not, he will be just as well protected like every other person in The Netherlands: if he feels insulted, he can just go to the police, just like everybody else, no special exception for him, just because he got out of the right mother at the right time.

In your country, Erdogan misused a similar law in the Böhmermann affair. There is a similar law in the Netherlands that you cannot insult a friendly foreign leader, well...............

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B6hmermann_affair
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:36 am

We still have a law protecting the Bundespräsident in a similar fashion to your law protecting the King / Queen. I personally think it makes sense to have a law that grants the head of state special protection, especially as for a normal insult the insulted has to start the investigation by demanding prosecution while insulting the head of state is automatically investigated.It is imho very theoretical that you can not insult the head of a state as a person without insulting his position in the state.

Considering the increasing number of insults against the state and its institutions I would think it would sent a wrong message to do away with the current laws. Especially when insulting and attacking firemen, paramedics and policemen has become so common.
Last edited by seahawk on Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
CCGPV
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:41 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
The idea of having royalty as head of state and government in 2018 is bizarre to me. Talk about being backwards.


Well, it's not like being a republic is any better right now, to be honest.


A republic is better in every way to a monarchy.
Stay curious
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:49 am

seahawk wrote:
We still have a law protecting the Bundespräsident in a similar fashion to your law protecting the King / Queen. I personally think it makes sense to have a law that grants the head of state special protection, especially as for a normal insult the insulted has to start the investigation by demanding prosecution while insulting the head of state is automatically investigated.It is imho very theoretical that you can not insult the head of a state as a person without insulting his position in the state.

Considering the increasing number of insults against the state and its institutions I would think it would sent a wrong message to do away with the current laws. Especially when insulting and attacking firemen, paramedics and policemen has become so common.


Oh wait. People working in an official manner (in the mud) on behalf of the people should be a bit more protected, I agree and in the Netherlands they are, the punishment is increased by 1/3 for these branches.

If you have (moral) power, then you should not be surprised if people have an opinion about this, I think it is quite healthy for society to criticize it's (moral) leaders. There used to be a jester in every court, nowadays that role is being filled by society at large.

I can make fun of WillemLex as a person, without insulting the constitutional position or in my case the other way around. :)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bennett123
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:46 am

Having a constitutional counterbalance to the elected chamber is no bad thing.

Once you have the elected chamber and President from same party, you have the risk of a dictatorship.

Doubtless you will say that can change at the next elections. However five years is long enough to change the rules. You could even call a state of emergency and cancel the next elections.

A constitutional monarch, (being outside politics) is actually the backstop.
 
CCGPV
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:50 am

bennett123 wrote:
Having a constitutional counterbalance to the elected chamber is no bad thing.

Once you have the elected chamber and President from same party, you have the risk of a dictatorship.

Doubtless you will say that can change at the next elections. However five years is long enough to change the rules. You could even call a state of emergency and cancel the next elections.

A constitutional monarch, (being outside politics) is actually the backstop.


That's why you have an independent judiciary in addition to a President and chamber.
Stay curious
 
bennett123
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:59 am

IMO, the US has too many checks and balances and goes to the other extreme.

In the UK, the scope for the Monarch to intervene has existed for centuries, and has never had to be used.

The US has just had it’s second shutdown in how long.

Too much democracy will lead to grid lock.
 
B777LRF
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:24 pm

CCGPV wrote:
A republic is better in every way to a monarchy.


Have you tried entering Cadet Bone Spurs in that equation?

Suffice to say, there are a large number of people who wouldn't agree with that statement, Trump or not. I'm one of them, quite happy living in the worlds oldest (constitutional) monarchy, thank you very much, and would hate swapping our Queen for a politician. Your milage may vary, and I fully respect that, but please dispense with statements such as the one quoted above.
Signature. You just read one.
 
B777LRF
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:26 pm

CCGPV wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Having a constitutional counterbalance to the elected chamber is no bad thing.

Once you have the elected chamber and President from same party, you have the risk of a dictatorship.

Doubtless you will say that can change at the next elections. However five years is long enough to change the rules. You could even call a state of emergency and cancel the next elections.

A constitutional monarch, (being outside politics) is actually the backstop.


That's why you have an independent judiciary in addition to a President and chamber.


Except, in the case of the US (and others), it's not independent at all when the supreme justices are appointed by the chief executive.
Signature. You just read one.
 
petertenthije
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:19 pm

The head of state, the king, is a symbolic position. So you might as well keep him/her outside politics. The head of state should unite, and in the case of the Dutch monarchy they are quite succesful. The head of government, being political, will always receive a mixed reception. While Dutch politics are nowhere near as polarized as they are in the USA, a independant figure head is in my opinion desirable.

It also helps that the royal family has a long term view, whereas politicians by design only look towards the next elections. It provides some stability, in particular in international relations between heads-of-state.

That having been said, the “salary” and perks given to the royal family, in particular the lesser members that are not direct in line for succession, could be less.

There are fewer people protesting Wimlex then there are people protesting Sinterklaas (NL version of Santa). That should be a clear indication that the monarchy is well respected.
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:11 pm

CCGPV wrote:
The idea of having royalty as head of state and government in 2018 is bizarre to me. Talk about being backwards.
A republic is better in every way to a monarchy

If you were talking "absolute monarchy" I would agree with you.

But since I assume we are all here discussing "constitutional monarchy", then let's be real about this.
The constitution limits the power of the monarch in the same way it limits the power of the President of the U.S.
Probably much more so in fact.
The Queen of England, (and Prince Philip) might well be old and a bit ga-ga, but I don't fear them in the same way I fear Donald Trump.

It is also highly variable as to how much individual countries limit their monarch's power.
From wikipedias list of current constitutional monarchies I give you....
Belgium, Denmark, Japan, Jordan, Luxembourg, Norway, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom, and of course Netherlands.

I'm not sure any of these countries are exactly struggling due to being "backwards"

Australia, Canada, New Zealand (& others) are also listed.
Please tell me how having royalty as head of state and government in 2018 is holding them back?

And here's a final thought from my favourite source;
Wikipedia wrote:
While heads-of-state {in republics} often tend to claim that they rule only by the "consent of the governed", elections in some countries have been found to be held more for the purpose of "show" than for the actual purpose of in reality providing citizens with any genuine ability to choose their own leaders
I'm not even sure which particular countries they are referring to, but I am fairly certain a majority of the world would prefer the benign monarchy of King Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands, to the dangerous lunatic currently residing in the White House. :lol:
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WIederling
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:46 pm

CCGPV wrote:
A republic is better in every way to a monarchy.


Heil Trump dem F*hrer. Or is that not what you meant?

Representative monarchy can be an efficient setup.
Continuity without political impact. And QEII seems to do her supervisory job rather well too.
Lastly those that have a need for a group of topdog individuals to look up to have their wish
without them having to resort to worshipping less savory characters like some teutonic leader borrowed from Austria.
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:21 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
The constitution limits the power of the monarch in the same way it limits the power of the President of the U.S.
Probably much more so in fact.


Much, much, much more. The European kings and Queens have afair virtually zero powers whatsoever, just representative and ceremonial duties.

Best regards
Thomas
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Dutchy
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:42 pm

petertenthije wrote:
The head of state, the king, is a symbolic position. So you might as well keep him/her outside politics. The head of state should unite, and in the case of the Dutch monarchy they are quite succesful. The head of government, being political, will always receive a mixed reception. While Dutch politics are nowhere near as polarized as they are in the USA, a independant figure head is in my opinion desirable.

It also helps that the royal family has a long term view, whereas politicians by design only look towards the next elections. It provides some stability, in particular in international relations between heads-of-state.

That having been said, the “salary” and perks given to the royal family, in particular the lesser members that are not direct in line for succession, could be less.

There are fewer people protesting Wimlex then there are people protesting Sinterklaas (NL version of Santa). That should be a clear indication that the monarchy is well respected.



Peter, either wimlex has no power what so ever and so it doesn't matter what kind of views he has or that does matter so he has powers in which case he should be stripped from them immediately because he has no basis for this powers in a democracy. And as of relationships with other heads-of-state, well again he isn't allowed to have opinions, they are dictated to him by his political masters.

Do you consider the German system or Austrian system as unstable? They have a symbolic president as well, although elected. The French president or the American one are political, that is indeed not a desirable system if it were up to me.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jalap
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:12 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Do you consider the German system or Austrian system as unstable? They have a symbolic president as well, although elected.

You don't know what would happen if one day some extremist got elected president in Germany or Austria. It is far more probable in Austria or Germany that some day they have a symbolic head of state that spreads a message of hate, compared to this probability in a constitutional monarchy.

Also, I'll add one of my favourite Douglas Adams quotes:

“The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.
To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.”


And although this is very tongue-in-cheek, it seems to hold a lot of truth. In this view, your last line of defense (a symbolic head of state) probably best not be an elected one.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:45 am

Jalap wrote:
It is far more probable in Austria or Germany that some day they have a symbolic head of state that spreads a message of hate, compared to this probability in a constitutional monarchy.


Why? I think it is far more likely that a complete idiot is put on the throne than an elected official spreading hate. But more importantly, in the second case, the feel in the country will be the hate message, so does it matter if the symbolic head-of-state does it as well, because most probably the government, with the powers, will spread the same word. But a baboon for a King is a role of the dice, that could happen each and every time a new one is put in that moral position. We have had 7 people in that position in the Netherlands, out of them, 1 was a complete idiot or 14%. Ok small sample size, but still. In Thailand, you have a crown prince who has some peculiarities etc. Belgium there is one of the princes, etc. etc.

I can see why you lean towards this train of thought, but under scrutiny, it doesn't hold any merit.
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chimborazo
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:00 am

Dutchy, you portray yourself as very left and liberal but after years of reading thousands of your posts it's clear that you despise anyone that doesn't think like you. It is a typical hard left opinion: "you don't think exactly like me, you are wrong."
I actually agree about not having a special rule for insulting the royal family but totally disagree that constitutional monarchs should be abolished. Sometimes history and tradition is a good thing... just because. It's there, many many people like it so roll with it. I'm a Brit and while not proud of so many things about my country, I am of the royal family. it really does set us apart as special and interesting against many other countries. We have a queen who is head of state and technically can overrule parliament in some areas- but doesn't. It is effectively a figurehead-only set up. To go full Republican you can model the wonderful US system whereby the head of state is elected whilst losing the popular vote and DOES have monarchical/dictatorial powers- and uses them.
Time to stop being a hater.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:54 am

@chimborazo, actually I am not that left in Dutch culture, social-liberal, so lot's of room for the individual and self-expression (so respect people's achievements and to get there on their own merits, not on their place of birth), but also with a good collective safety-net so everyone can have the safety and security of a good life but still have the incentive to better themselves. But I do indeed hate injustice or bullying, whether on a personal level or internationally. So that is the context I think and operate in 8-)

What I feel here on a-net (and in real life) facts don't seem to matter to some. You can have a different take on life, fine, we can have a debate about that, but not about facts. I don't feel that I hate anyone, that would be on the person itself, I do not do that (or at least try to), I try to debate the issue at hand. :spin:

I would indeed like to abolish an absolute institution like the monarchy, let the royals free to do whatever they want (wimlex would probably be happier as a 747 KLM captain anyhow), replace them with a president elected by both parliaments or so, and indeed not a republic like France or America or Turkey.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jalap
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:09 pm

Dutchy wrote:
But a baboon for a King is a role of the dice, that could happen each and every time a new one is put in that moral position.

Yes, it’s a roll of the dice. And I honestly believe a human selected by a roll of the dice is far more likely to be a “good person” compared to a politician that manages to get him/herself elected president.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:25 pm

Jalap wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
But a baboon for a King is a role of the dice, that could happen each and every time a new one is put in that moral position.

Yes, it’s a roll of the dice. And I honestly believe a human selected by a roll of the dice is far more likely to be a “good person” compared to a politician that manages to get him/herself elected president.


Bit cynical perhaps, but I can't disprove it. :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: The Netherlands a bit more modern

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
We still have a law protecting the Bundespräsident in a similar fashion to your law protecting the King / Queen. I personally think it makes sense to have a law that grants the head of state special protection,


Oh wait. People working in an official manner (in the mud) on behalf of the people should be a bit more protected, I agree and in the Netherlands they are, the punishment is increased by 1/3 for these branches.


Oh, absolutely not. Creating a class of over-privileged government employees is the last thing any country needs. Politicians and government employees should have only one protection - do their jobs well. If they are not able to do that, they absolutely should put up with any insult coming their way. And if they don't like it, they can always quit and try their luck in the private sector, just as most of us do. After all, they haven't been drafted to do the government jobs.
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