sevenair wrote:

We are still on of the few countries who pay our NATO dues.

All NATO members have paid their NATO dues in full. And for the record France and Germany pay more into the NATO budget than the UK (8 and 49% more respectively).

Try getting your facts straight. Well, just make them facts .... maybe more BBC would help you from dispersing lies.

best regards
Thomas

sevenair wrote:

highly skilled brits (and good taxpayers) are seeking ways to leave the UK and stay in the EU
-No evidence of this. Our NHS has actually increased the amount of skilled and clinical staff since the vote. We still attracted 100,000 in terms of net migration

No evidence, except for record numbers of Brits seeking citizenship in EU states. And yes, 100.000 illiterate Ahmeds and Muhammeds immigrating from Afghanistan and Somalia certainly will make up for all the engineers and bankers that are being lost...

sevenair wrote:

AstraZeneca are still building their largest facility here in the UK

But they have announced that they are slowing down investments in the UK as a direct result of Brexit, and that they are making plans to move research and manufacturing away, which most major employers are.

sevenair wrote:

that your vegetables are rotting in the fields,

-No, they really aren't. Since 1945 we had temp visas for agri workers. We still have them for Bulgarian and Romanian workers. If the need is there we can simply role out the scheme to all countries.

And funnily enough, Bulgarians and Romanians no longer wish to work in the UK as temporary agricultural workers, as the 50%+1 votes made it pretty clear that foreigners were no longer welcome, with a particular focus on Bulgarians, Romanians and anybody else eligible for that sort of work.

sevenair wrote:

-We are still on of the few countries who pay our NATO dues. It's been a long time since we went it alone with large scale military action. Our military spend is actually higher than it was in 2000. It has fallen as a % of our GDP but It has nothing to do with Brexit as it's been falling since 2008.

Sure, 700 million GBP blown out of the budget due to the fall of the pound following brexit was not because of brexit...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... pert-warns
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... uts-brexit

And FYI, Tommy is right. All NATO members pay their dues. You are confusing it with the 2% spending goal, an entirely different and voluntary matter.

sevenair wrote:

Our economy is growing at very similar levels of Italy and Greece since brexit.

Fixed that for you. Your economy is doing even worse than Greece these days:
http://nordic.businessinsider.com/greek ... ?r=UK&IR=T
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... rexit-vote

sevenair wrote:

-We already do comply with all EU standards for goods we send there. Nobody is better set up to trade with the EU than a former EU member. All goods sent to all countries must be compatible with the country which they're being sent to. This isn't an EU specific issue.

Except now all the others can change the rules with which you have to comply, and you can't do a thing about it. And may I remind you how often the UK blocked legislation in the parliament because you guys didn't like it?

sevenair wrote:

-We are still one of the biggest net contributors to the EU budget. How much does Canada pay for access to the SM? Nobody knows what deal we will end up with.

Why are you even bringing up Canada? The trade deal with Canada was optional for both parties. Canada doesn't rely on the EU, they have a major trading partner just to their south. For the EU and Canada, this deal was just the cherry on top of the cake. The UK does rely on the EU. The UK can't rely on a trading partner that is located 2 weeks shipping away (and runs on a strict US-first policy). How do you expect an internet shop to be able to compete if they have to charge for 2 weeks of shipping, and make the customer wait for that long? Do you really expect corporations to go "Hey, lets manufacture all our stuff in high-cost and high-tax UK, from where it takes a full 2 weeks to ship our produce over? It's like China, just without any of the benefits of cheap labour!"? Do you really expect UK farms to be able to export vegetables and dairy products to the US at competitive prices? The produce will rot before it gets halfway.
Everybody knows this, except, it seems, Brexiteers.

What’s conveniently forgotten is the fact that there are simply lots of higher better jobs. Wages are rising but. The farmer quoted in hard remain Herald Scotland will simply have to pay higher wages. Coincidentally wages have grown here in the UK since Brexit.

tommy1808 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

We are still on of the few countries who pay our NATO dues.

All NATO members have paid their NATO dues in full. And for the record France and Germany pay more into the NATO budget than the UK (8 and 49% more respectively).

Try getting your facts straight. Well, just make them facts .... maybe more BBC would help you from dispersing lies.

best regards
Thomas

That’s two countries. How about the many who barely pay into it?

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_67655.htm

Oh and what do we have here:

http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/01/news/na ... index.html

VSMUT wrote:

sevenair wrote:

highly skilled brits (and good taxpayers) are seeking ways to leave the UK and stay in the EU
-No evidence of this. Our NHS has actually increased the amount of skilled and clinical staff since the vote. We still attracted 100,000 in terms of net migration

No evidence, except for record numbers of Brits seeking citizenship in EU states. And yes, 100.000 illiterate Ahmeds and Muhammeds immigrating from Afghanistan and Somalia certainly will make up for all the engineers and bankers that are being lost...

sevenair wrote:

AstraZeneca are still building their largest facility here in the UK

But they have announced that they are slowing down investments in the UK as a direct result of Brexit, and that they are making plans to move research and manufacturing away, which most major employers are.

sevenair wrote:

that your vegetables are rotting in the fields,

-No, they really aren't. Since 1945 we had temp visas for agri workers. We still have them for Bulgarian and Romanian workers. If the need is there we can simply role out the scheme to all countries.

And funnily enough, Bulgarians and Romanians no longer wish to work in the UK as temporary agricultural workers, as the 50%+1 votes made it pretty clear that foreigners were no longer welcome, with a particular focus on Bulgarians, Romanians and anybody else eligible for that sort of work.

sevenair wrote:

-We are still on of the few countries who pay our NATO dues. It's been a long time since we went it alone with large scale military action. Our military spend is actually higher than it was in 2000. It has fallen as a % of our GDP but It has nothing to do with Brexit as it's been falling since 2008.

Sure, 700 million GBP blown out of the budget due to the fall of the pound following brexit was not because of brexit...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... pert-warns
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... uts-brexit

And FYI, Tommy is right. All NATO members pay their dues. You are confusing it with the 2% spending goal, an entirely different and voluntary matter.

sevenair wrote:

Our economy is growing at very similar levels of Italy and Greece since brexit.

Fixed that for you. Your economy is doing even worse than Greece these days:
http://nordic.businessinsider.com/greek ... ?r=UK&IR=T
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... rexit-vote

sevenair wrote:

-We already do comply with all EU standards for goods we send there. Nobody is better set up to trade with the EU than a former EU member. All goods sent to all countries must be compatible with the country which they're being sent to. This isn't an EU specific issue.

Except now all the others can change the rules with which you have to comply, and you can't do a thing about it. And may I remind you how often the UK blocked legislation in the parliament because you guys didn't like it?

sevenair wrote:

-We are still one of the biggest net contributors to the EU budget. How much does Canada pay for access to the SM? Nobody knows what deal we will end up with.

Why are you even bringing up Canada? The trade deal with Canada was optional for both parties. Canada doesn't rely on the EU, they have a major trading partner just to their south. For the EU and Canada, this deal was just the cherry on top of the cake. The UK does rely on the EU. The UK can't rely on a trading partner that is located 2 weeks shipping away (and runs on a strict US-first policy). How do you expect an internet shop to be able to compete if they have to charge for 2 weeks of shipping, and make the customer wait for that long? Do you really expect corporations to go "Hey, lets manufacture all our stuff in high-cost and high-tax UK, from where it takes a full 2 weeks to ship our produce over? It's like China, just without any of the benefits of cheap labour!"? Do you really expect UK farms to be able to export vegetables and dairy products to the US at competitive prices? The produce will rot before it gets halfway.
Everybody knows this, except, it seems, Brexiteers.

It was meantioned we will have to pay in billions to trade with the EU. Canada trades freely with the EU yet doesn’t pay a penny. Simple really!

I think astute business leaders should be covering all bases if I’m honest.

Many companies have increased, renewed and reaffirmed their commitment to the U.K. including Google, Facebook, Bloomberg, Alantra, Spotify, Sumitomo Bank, Merck, Box, Goldman and many more.

sevenair wrote:

It was meantioned we will have to pay in billions to trade with the EU. Canada trades freely with the EU yet doesn’t pay a penny. Simple really!

Because Canada doesn't need the trade with the EU. What part don't you understand? The UK is backed into a corner, Canada is not. The EU isn't a charity that provides equal terms for all.

VSMUT wrote:

sevenair wrote:

It was meantioned we will have to pay in billions to trade with the EU. Canada trades freely with the EU yet doesn’t pay a penny. Simple really!

Because Canada doesn't need the trade with the EU. What part don't you understand? The UK is backed into a corner, Canada is not. The EU isn't a charity that provides equal terms for all.

If Canada can get a deal done so can we. We don’t need a free trade deal remember. And the EUSSR are not the only people who we can trade with.

sevenair wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

We are still on of the few countries who pay our NATO dues.

All NATO members have paid their NATO dues in full. And for the record France and Germany pay more into the NATO budget than the UK (8 and 49% more respectively).

Try getting your facts straight. Well, just make them facts .... maybe more BBC would help you from dispersing lies.

best regards
Thomas

That’s two countries. How about the many who barely pay into it?

They all pay what is due. But it is nice how you always try to detract when you get caught up in your lies and misrepresentations.

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

All NATO members have paid their NATO dues in full. And for the record France and Germany pay more into the NATO budget than the UK (8 and 49% more respectively).

Try getting your facts straight. Well, just make them facts .... maybe more BBC would help you from dispersing lies.

best regards
Thomas

That’s two countries. How about the many who barely pay into it?

They all pay what is due. But it is nice how you always try to detract when you get caught up in your lies and misrepresentations.

best regards
Thomas

Nup. I claimed we were one of the few countries who paid our dues. In fact just 5 countries pay the 2% target and your much despised UK is one of them!!! How many will hit the 2% target by 2022? Not many I should imagine.

sevenair wrote:

Nup. I claimed we were one of the few countries who paid our dues.

so you lied....

In fact just 5 countries pay the 2% target

oh no, you didn´t lie. You just have no clue what you are talking about..... no one, not even the UK is paying 2% of the GDP to the NATO, wants to, plans to or ever did.

best regards
Thomas

One must chuckle from time to time.

If it’s such a great tragedy that we are leaving the EU then surely it’s a case of simply saying ‘that’s a shame but bye’.

Instead so much bitterness towards us. So much hate. So much I’ll feeling. Why? If it’s so bad then just let it slip!

It’s a shame that people here want it to fail so badly. Usually it’s the out of touch liberals who claim to be a voice for the poor yet they conveniently neglect that when they want Brexit to fail as it’s the poor who will suffer the most.

Personally I think they should simply get rid of Northern Ireland. It’s nothing but as drain on our resources. Hand it back. Hard Brexit. No GFA issue. Job done!

sevenair wrote:

Instead so much bitterness towards us. So much hate. So much I’ll feeling. Why? If it’s so bad then just let it slip!

easy, the average EU citizen cares more about the UK and its future then the people voting "leave". Aside of those close to 50% that got duped into voting so.

You don´t let friends do stupid thinks without telling them how stupid they are, or do you just let them slip too.....

best regards
Thomas

The BBC has a hard-left bias?

Then why does the current hard-left Labour party complain about it being biased against them?

tommy1808 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

Instead so much bitterness towards us. So much hate. So much I’ll feeling. Why? If it’s so bad then just let it slip!

easy, the average EU citizen cares more about the UK and its future then the people voting "leave". Aside of those close to 50% that got duped into voting so.

You don´t let friends do stupid thinks without telling them how stupid they are, or do you just let them slip too.....

best regards
Thomas

Oh I’ll get by with a little help from my friends.......

Utter nonsense. Their chance to stop Brexit was during Cameron’s reform negotiations. That didn’t work.

The EU and remoaners had another chance once the EUref was called. They could have promoted the benefits of the EU.

Such was the all round arrogance that they didn’t. They simply tried to scare people in to remaining. If they wanted us to stay they could have tried harder.

They had more to spend. The government had millions spent on a pro EU letter drop, the world told us to remain unless we wanted Armageddon.

Perhaps a big blue bus could have worked?

sevenair wrote:

They could have promoted the benefits of the EU. ?

the didn´t listen and didn´t want to listen. Just look at yourself, long time after the vote and pretty much even the most basic thing you´ve claimed about the EU was counterfactual to say the least.

And how elegant you try to ignore your lies about NATO and its budget being pointed out.

best regards
Thomas

sevenair wrote:

If Canada can get a deal done so can we. We don’t need a free trade deal remember. And the EUSSR are not the only people who we can trade with.

Sigh, did you even care to read my previous reply? Yes, you need a trade deal with the EU. You don't have a choice. And yes, you will pay out of the nose for it, because we [the EU] can extort them from you. You can't export agricultural goods to anybody else, the transport will take too long. You are too expensive to manufacture consumer goods in, even for the Americans. Delivery will take too long and be too expensive to compete with local competitors.

sevenair wrote:

Nup. I claimed we were one of the few countries who paid our dues. In fact just 5 countries pay the 2% target and your much despised UK is one of them!!! How many will hit the 2% target by 2022? Not many I should imagine.

Again, didn't you read the previous replies?

Membership dues = The cost to be a member. If you don't pay, then you will no longer be a part of NATO.
The 2% of GDP spending target = Not membership dues, but a voluntary recommended target for defence expenditure.

tommy1808 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

They could have promoted the benefits of the EU. ?

the didn´t listen and didn´t want to listen. Just look at yourself, long time after the vote and pretty much even the most basic thing you´ve claimed about the EU was counterfactual to say the least.

And how elegant you try to ignore your lies about NATO and its budget being pointed out.

best regards
Thomas

There was nothing to listen to! There was no pro EU campaign. Just an anti EU one and an anti leave one. None of the benefits were promoted and people were scared into voting.

I admit I got the NATO funding thing wrong but we are one of the few countries who spend in excess of the 2% GDP on our own defence. We are one of few countries who actually do this. In fact we spend in excess of this. We spend more on defence now than we did in the time soon after 9-11 when labour took us into major wars.

VSMUT wrote:

sevenair wrote:

If Canada can get a deal done so can we. We don’t need a free trade deal remember. And the EUSSR are not the only people who we can trade with.

Sigh, did you even care to read my previous reply? Yes, you need a trade deal with the EU. You don't have a choice. And yes, you will pay out of the nose for it, because we [the EU] can extort them from you. You can't export agricultural goods to anybody else, the transport will take too long. You are too expensive to manufacture consumer goods in, even for the Americans. Delivery will take too long and be too expensive to compete with local competitors.

sevenair wrote:

Nup. I claimed we were one of the few countries who paid our dues. In fact just 5 countries pay the 2% target and your much despised UK is one of them!!! How many will hit the 2% target by 2022? Not many I should imagine.

Again, didn't you read the previous replies?

Membership dues = The cost to be a member. If you don't pay, then you will no longer be a part of NATO.
The 2% of GDP spending target = Not membership dues, but a voluntary recommended target for defence expenditure.

Right. So this amazing benevolent supranational government who is ‘responsible for peace in Europe since WW2’ will ‘extort’ from us. How does that fit in with the principles of the EU!? You and the EU are really showing your true colours! We have made it clear we want cooperation and to maintain a close working relationship but you’re advocating ‘extorting’ from us. Personally I think you’ve had enough.

NATO figures already corrected above my friend. Thanks for the enlightenment but we still remain one of the few countries who pay our way on our own defence!

sevenair wrote:

tommy1808 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

They could have promoted the benefits of the EU. ?

the didn´t listen and didn´t want to listen. Just look at yourself, long time after the vote and pretty much even the most basic thing you´ve claimed about the EU was counterfactual to say the least.

And how elegant you try to ignore your lies about NATO and its budget being pointed out.

best regards
Thomas

There was nothing to listen to! There was no pro EU campaign. Just an anti EU one and an anti leave one. None of the benefits were promoted and people were scared into voting.

Funny, there was some pretty good stuff about the benefits of the EU posted in the pre-Brexit threat. If guess you must have missed that.

We are one of few countries who actually do this. In fact we spend in excess of this. .

yup, you do. That doesn´t mean anyone owns anyone anything or not paying its due.....

And then there is that:

https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/fil ... e-2016.pdf

what, just 1.9% of the GPD? You are not paying what is due! And you are even reducing it by 12% since 2007? How dare you!

But don´t worry, your GDP will be shrinking faster then the military spending.... so you get back to 2% in no time,

And do you notice how utterly outspend Russia is even by the EU countries w/o the UK?

The US push for higher defense spending is a nice way of saying "give us more of your Taxpayers money". If that would be exclusively EU sourced they wouldn´t say a peep.

best regards
Thomas

It's true! The BBC is ultra hard left-left... You just have to see the so called 'Nature Programmes'

Showing ants and their colonies is simply promotion of central ownership of the means of production. And Countryfile.. Just a excuse to showcase agricultural collectivism! And that 'John Craven'. More like Comrade Ivan Cravenovich... The alleged cross section of the public on Question Time are just Party members who sit there shouting "No Grain to Waste!", "Lenin Lived, Lenin Lives, Lenin will live again" and my personal favourite: " Пролетарии всех стран, соединяйтесь!"

Can we make you the new propaganda minister for the United Kingdom.

sevenair wrote:

Right. So this amazing benevolent supranational government who is ‘responsible for peace in Europe since WW2’ will ‘extort’ from us. How does that fit in with the principles of the EU!? You and the EU are really showing your true colours! We have made it clear we want cooperation and to maintain a close working relationship but you’re advocating ‘extorting’ from us. Personally I think you’ve had enough.

Simple. It fits in with the principle that peace, free trade and prosperity doesn't come without investment. FYI, I'm not advocating it, I'm just stating that it is already happening. You guys left a very beneficial package negotiated under special terms, and now that you guys have nowhere else to turn, you think you can rejoin for free. Not happening, you didn't even have any goodwill left after the massive rebate you already received in 2012, and then you decided to create a massive mess on top of it.

We, the EU, want cooperation and a close working relationship too. But it will be on our terms. You need us a lot more than we need you.

I think it is unfortunate that a number of main stream media have pushed the mantra of generalities that only the old and uneducated voted for Brexit.
Such has given rise to the comments that they are dying out so in another few years a re-vote would work, shockingly, they seem sure that the education system cannot catch up in a similar time frame.

As a Liberal myself, BBC is definitely not “Hard Left”. It’s definitely not “Hard Right” either. Sometimes it sides against Gov, sometimes, it sides with them. But either way, I agree with OP, TV Licence increase is unacceptable, especially after the whole ho-ha about transparency and value for money. BBC should have ads and be like any other TV stations where it has to self-generate funds and capital to fund their business, if ITV, Channels 4 and 5 can do it, so can the BBC.

sevenair wrote:

One must chuckle from time to time.

If it’s such a great tragedy that we are leaving the EU then surely it’s a case of simply saying ‘that’s a shame but bye’.

Instead so much bitterness towards us. So much hate. So much I’ll feeling. Why? If it’s so bad then just let it slip!

It’s a shame that people here want it to fail so badly. Usually it’s the out of touch liberals who claim to be a voice for the poor yet they conveniently neglect that when they want Brexit to fail as it’s the poor who will suffer the most.

Personally I think they should simply get rid of Northern Ireland. It’s nothing but as drain on our resources. Hand it back. Hard Brexit. No GFA issue. Job done!

Tell that to your right-wing Unionists in Northern Ireland, they see NI as British as you see GB. They don’t want to leave NI, they don’t want it returned and reunified with Republic of Ireland either. They see it as their duty and birthright to ensure NI remains British and loyal to the Crown. If May had her way, she would ditch NI and returned to RoI but since she needs the DUP votes in Westminster to maintain a majority, she has no choice but to be DUP’s puppet when it comes to NI.

JJJ wrote:

TPX101 wrote:

sevenair wrote:

One must chuckle from time to time.

If it’s such a great tragedy that we are leaving the EU then surely it’s a case of simply saying ‘that’s a shame but bye’.

Instead so much bitterness towards us. So much hate. So much I’ll feeling. Why? If it’s so bad then just let it slip!

It’s a shame that people here want it to fail so badly. Usually it’s the out of touch liberals who claim to be a voice for the poor yet they conveniently neglect that when they want Brexit to fail as it’s the poor who will suffer the most.

Personally I think they should simply get rid of Northern Ireland. It’s nothing but as drain on our resources. Hand it back. Hard Brexit. No GFA issue. Job done!

Tell that to your right-wing Unionists in Northern Ireland, they see NI as British as you see GB. They don’t want to leave NI, they don’t want it returned and reunified with Republic of Ireland either. They see it as their duty and birthright to ensure NI remains British and loyal to the Crown. If May had her way, she would ditch NI and returned to RoI but since she needs the DUP votes in Westminster to maintain a majority, she has no choice but to be DUP’s puppet when it comes to NI.

What May needs to realise is that she signed two mutually exclusive things regarding NI. Either NI is aligned with RoI or with the wider UK, you can't have both at the same time and still be outside EU, single market, etc.

And that's not even taking the surreal position the UK wants to defend in front on the EU. Basically (and shamelessly using Sam Lowe's definition):

"We want to remain aligned in the areas where it suits us, but the freedom to diverge in those areas in which we believe we can gain a competitive advantage over you by doing so."

And they will still complain when they're politely told to f-off.

Agreed. It is absolutely ludicrous, talk about - having your cake, eating it too and saving it for later.

Haven't read much of this thread that seems to have drifted into brexit.

But I will get my word in and say the BBC is possibly one of the most bent organisations in the UK and is a total embaressment.

I must congratulate the BBC for actually having two brexiteers on QT this week. I'm impressed.

Solidarity brothers, sisters and inbetweeners.

Such left wing bias

I don't see why there should be a regressive tax on television sets in the UK to fund the BBC. They license their programming all over the world. There are lots of programs from BBC that I like and watch via PBS both broadcast and streaming and via Amazon Prime and Netflix via streaming. I'm sure there is lots of their programming I wouldn't like if I got their over the air feed.