Jalap
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Discussion on vape

Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:39 pm

Lightsaber made a post on the civil aviation forum which I must reply to. Since it isn't aviation related, I reply here:

lightsaber wrote:
Guess what, vaping is also a very toxic mix. Don't fool yourselves, we're not evolved for that level of lung contamination.

Then steer clear of the kitchen, for that's filled with vapes as well. Can't even compare with barbeque, because that's not vape, that's smoke.
So you say: toxic mix. Please post a source, because I haven't yet seen scientific proof of it being more toxic than many other pleasures we know in life.

lightsaber wrote:
I've even read studies on how since vaping users inhale deeper, it could be 100% as bad as smoking. Nicotine is an insecticide.

One: not all vapers use nicotine. And two: it's even hard to prove nicotine is worse than caffeine: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... e-all-bad/
Not saying that nicotine is good, but you can not demonize it without without being consequent towards other active substances we use for pleasure.

lightsaber wrote:
I really wish smokers and vapor users realize they really can't smell anymore. I very much dislike sitting next to a smoker due to the smell. I won't comment to a stranger though.

Again, source? I've never heard about vaping affecting sense of smell.
And yes, the vape itself has a smell. Thousands of different smells available. I've been vaping for over 2 years now, think I got a negative comment about the smell twice. But I strongly doubt it is worse than people who use certain perfumes. It's a matter of taste.
In any case: you cannot compare it with smoke. Vape dissipates very quickly and doesn't stick to the vaper or to clothes or whatever.
By the way, being a vaper I will never ever go vape in a dedicated smoker space. That would be a rather idiotic thing to do because one of the reasons we vape is that we don't like smoke (anymore).

In conclusion, I have a feeling you post was driven by prejudice and a failure to differentiate vape from smoke. I sometimes say: vape is what you see in the kitchen (airborne droplets) and smoke is what you see coming out of a volcano (airborne solid particles).

I'm very disappointed govenments worldwide are so hostile towards vaping. I think this is the best shot we have ever had to eliminating cigarette smoking.
I had a twitter discussion with a politician who wants to raise taxes on vape. He says "we don't want people to replace one harmfull thing with another harmfull thing.". Which is a crap argement because it neglects that vape is FAR less harmfull than smoking. Yes, not 100% harmless, but little in life is. And cigarettes are extremely harmfull.
Another argument: "there's no proof that it's safe". Which is a dishonest argument, because it can't ever be proven, like we can't prove mermaids don't exist.

Surely people will disagree with me, then I'm looking forward to the argumentations.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Discussion on vape

Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:10 pm

The issue is not against vaping itself; it's that:
1. Vaping is a recent phenomenon. No studies have purposely cleared or linked vaping with any diseases. Vaping is nothing more than a lite version of hookah: the inhalation of vapor mixed with nicotine to say that you're leaving toxins behind is not yet proven. And try as you might, inhaling something you're not supposed to at such large quantities is not natural so there will clearly be some effects.
2. You can't link kitchen fumes to vaping fumes. It's one thing to breathe in fumes over a day; it's another to likely inhale the same amount with 2-3 puffs.
3. Nicotine is a recreational drug, but the main concern is that by vaping, folks may want to go full tobacco instead of the lighter, "safer" method. I can understand when it's in the government's interest to raise taxes on vaping and cigarettes and alcohol if it means people will reduce their consumption.

Don't get me wrong: I see vapers and thinking about getting my own (nicotine-free though) to join in. But the only reason I haven't done it is because my concerns about the subsequent health effects haven't been addressed yet. It's safer than cigarettes, but what's the trade-off?

It's kinda like medication that's supposed to address a certain condition, but the side-effects are so serious that you wonder if you should even take it.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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zkojq
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Re: Discussion on vape

Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:28 pm

A lot of vapers seem to think that its somehow acceptable to vape indoors or in enclosed spaces. I kid you not but two weeks ago I saw someone vaping on a crowded train. They seemed genuinely surprised that literally everyone around them wasn't impressed.

Most smokers are arrogant a%&holes, but your average vaper just takes this to a whole new level.
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Jalap
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Re: Discussion on vape

Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:16 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
1. Vaping is a recent phenomenon. No studies have purposely cleared or linked vaping with any diseases. Vaping is nothing more than a lite version of hookah: the inhalation of vapor mixed with nicotine to say that you're leaving toxins behind is not yet proven. And try as you might, inhaling something you're not supposed to at such large quantities is not natural so there will clearly be some effects.

There's many things we do which we're not supposed to. In large quantities. Flying just to name one ;)
Agreed one should be carefull when doing unnatural things. It's an argument against rushing in, but it isn't an agrument against going in carefully, untill science finds out that is really is a bad idea.

einsteinboricua wrote:
2. You can't link kitchen fumes to vaping fumes. It's one thing to breathe in fumes over a day; it's another to likely inhale the same amount with 2-3 puffs.

The comparison was a stretch. On the other hand, the amount of liquid in a puff is really really low. Guess about 0,01ml. Most of which is exhaled after the puff. It may look massive when vaporized, but it really is a very very tiny amount.

einsteinboricua wrote:
3. Nicotine is a recreational drug, but the main concern is that by vaping, folks may want to go full tobacco instead of the lighter, "safer" method. I can understand when it's in the government's interest to raise taxes on vaping and cigarettes and alcohol if it means people will reduce their consumption.

The stepping stone theory is indeed one of the arguments I hear often. And they have proof: there's an increasing amount of people who start smoking after first being a vaper. They then seem to neglect that previously, nobody vaped and so couldn't make the step.
Numbers we want to see is if total numer of smokers is going down. And from what I've heard, it is.
A tax on e-liquid will never bring in more money than the health care saving caused by the reduction in amount of smokers.
Which is politically not interesting: taxes you can collect immediately, health savings are on long term...

einsteinboricua wrote:
Don't get me wrong: I see vapers and thinking about getting my own (nicotine-free though) to join in. But the only reason I haven't done it is because my concerns about the subsequent health effects haven't been addressed yet. It's safer than cigarettes, but what's the trade-off?

The concern is justified, but will probably never be clarified. With this line of thought, we wouldn't have wifi or 4G or even radio perhaps. Most innovations suffer from this incertainty. And some have proven to be detrimantal indeed. Lead and asbestos possibly the most famous mishaps. But if after over 10 years of research no real objection has been discovered, then I think we can assume it's mostly harmless.

einsteinboricua wrote:
It's kinda like medication that's supposed to address a certain condition, but the side-effects are so serious that you wonder if you should even take it.

In this case: the condition is deadly. Cigarette smoking. The medicine I propose has after 10 years or so only minor proven side effects. How much longer can one wait till we actually start promoting it?

Now, one problem is: there really is nothing cool about vaping. It isn't sexy, it isn't cool, it has no attitude, you don't see it in movies or on tv. It has a long way to go to be a fair match for cigarettes. But at least I feel we should try.
 
Jalap
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Re: Discussion on vape

Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:34 pm

zkojq wrote:
A lot of vapers seem to think that its somehow acceptable to vape indoors or in enclosed spaces. I kid you not but two weeks ago I saw someone vaping on a crowded train. They seemed genuinely surprised that literally everyone around them wasn't impressed.

Most smokers are arrogant a%&holes, but your average vaper just takes this to a whole new level.

Generalizations like this have rarely helped to achieve great insights.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: Discussion on vape

Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:57 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Don't get me wrong: I see vapers and thinking about getting my own (nicotine-free though) to join in.


Why? Never quite understood what the point of vaping is if there's no nicotine. Doesn't give you any buzz then (or satisfy your nicotine addiction).
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Discussion on vape

Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:34 pm

Jalap wrote:
Flying just to name one ;)

I've never heard of second-hand flying or cancer because of flying. I have yet to see flying be considered a hazard to human health. You honestly lost any credibility you may have had if this is your best counterargument to stuff that's not natural.

vikkyvik wrote:
Never quite understood what the point of vaping is if there's no nicotine.
For the same reason someone might go out to a bar but stick to non-alcoholic beverages: it's a social activity. I must be immune to nicotine or have yet to experience its effects...I've done plenty of hookah sessions but never known when nicotine is kicking in.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Jalap
Topic Author
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Re: Discussion on vape

Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:26 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Flying just to name one ;)

I've never heard of second-hand flying or cancer because of flying. I have yet to see flying be considered a hazard to human health. You honestly lost any credibility you may have had if this is your best counterargument to stuff that's not natural.

It's quite ridiculous to think I claimed flying would invoke the exact same effect as smoking.
Just look around and see all the things that are not natural. I actually agreed with you that this needs to be handled with care and only tried to make a point that being unnatural isn't harmful per se. And since hamlessness can't be proven, we at some point need to assume that an innovation is harmless. Like we now all assume that leaving 10km of protecting atmosphere below you is harmless.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: Discussion on vape

Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:04 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
For the same reason someone might go out to a bar but stick to non-alcoholic beverages: it's a social activity.


The equivalent would be to go outside but not vape.

That I could understand.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
WIederling
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Re: Discussion on vape

Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:03 pm

you can't use smokers for some clean room work.
they eject tar and stuff even after having come clean for a day or two.
( I saw issues with two customers where heavy smokers assembled some sensors ( needing clean room environment).
replacing smokers with nonsmokers fixed the issue. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
Fiend
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Re: Discussion on vape

Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:55 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Flying just to name one ;)

I've never heard of second-hand flying or cancer because of flying. I have yet to see flying be considered a hazard to human health. You honestly lost any credibility you may have had if this is your best counterargument to stuff that's not natural.

vikkyvik wrote:
Never quite understood what the point of vaping is if there's no nicotine.
For the same reason someone might go out to a bar but stick to non-alcoholic beverages: it's a social activity. I must be immune to nicotine or have yet to experience its effects...I've done plenty of hookah sessions but never known when nicotine is kicking in.


So flying is not a health risk? I take it you don't consider the increased exposure to radiation flying at altitude to be a risk?
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TWA772LR
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Re: Discussion on vape

Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:42 pm

Inhaling anything but clean air can have adverse effects on your body.
einsteinboricua wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Flying just to name one ;)

I've never heard of second-hand flying or cancer because of flying. I have yet to see flying be considered a hazard to human health. You honestly lost any credibility you may have had if this is your best counterargument to stuff that's not natural.

vikkyvik wrote:
Never quite understood what the point of vaping is if there's no nicotine.
For the same reason someone might go out to a bar but stick to non-alcoholic beverages: it's a social activity. I must be immune to nicotine or have yet to experience its effects...I've done plenty of hookah sessions but never known when nicotine is kicking in.

Actually, flight crews do have an elevated risk of skin cancer because of regular exposure to more intense UV rays at altitude.
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VSMUT
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Re: Discussion on vape

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:52 pm

Jalap wrote:
Then steer clear of the kitchen, for that's filled with vapes as well. Can't even compare with barbeque, because that's not vape, that's smoke.
So you say: toxic mix. Please post a source, because I haven't yet seen scientific proof of it being more toxic than many other pleasures we know in life.


I don't need scientific proof to realize that my eyes start running and throat starts swelling when exposed to your "harmless" fumes. And I don't have those problems in a kitchen.


Jalap wrote:
There's many things we do which we're not supposed to. In large quantities. Flying just to name one ;)


Flying is optional. Sitting in your vile fumes is not.


lightsaber wrote:
I really wish smokers and vapor users realize they really can't smell anymore. I very much dislike sitting next to a smoker due to the smell. I won't comment to a stranger though.


Absolutely agree. They stink. And they never realize it.


Jalap wrote:
I'm very disappointed govenments worldwide are so hostile towards vaping.


Because non-smokers and non-vapers who had the sense never to get into bad habits in the first place should be protected from the nasty side-effects of your own bad choices.
 
CCGPV
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Re: Discussion on vape

Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:28 am

VSMUT wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Then steer clear of the kitchen, for that's filled with vapes as well. Can't even compare with barbeque, because that's not vape, that's smoke.
So you say: toxic mix. Please post a source, because I haven't yet seen scientific proof of it being more toxic than many other pleasures we know in life.


I don't need scientific proof to realize that my eyes start running and throat starts swelling when exposed to your "harmless" fumes. And I don't have those problems in a kitchen.



You are a LIAR! What about onions?
Stay curious
 
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stl07
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Re: Discussion on vape

Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:21 am

I love it when people say JUUL does nothing to your body then start jittering
 
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stl07
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Re: Discussion on vape

Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:25 am

"Nicotine does nothing bad to your body; studies show it" Ever heard of nicotine poisoning. It happens to people who vape with this attitude. I know a few. At least now their friends have the sensibility to only vape a pod a week.


Vaping is a slippery slope, unfortunately. I have seen people the started out with the nic free version then got into 5% and it took off from there. And yes, I can see it in their body, in their amount of intellect, and their reaction speed
 
VSMUT
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Discussion on vape

Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:57 am

CCGPV wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Jalap wrote:
Then steer clear of the kitchen, for that's filled with vapes as well. Can't even compare with barbeque, because that's not vape, that's smoke.
So you say: toxic mix. Please post a source, because I haven't yet seen scientific proof of it being more toxic than many other pleasures we know in life.


I don't need scientific proof to realize that my eyes start running and throat starts swelling when exposed to your "harmless" fumes. And I don't have those problems in a kitchen.



You are a LIAR! What about onions?


:lol: Okay okay, the truth has been spoken :lol:

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