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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:06 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Excellent tactic, Anrec80, downplaying, only 0,1% what can be done with that right? Well..... reaching 126million Americans and posting over 80.000post, that is relevant and thus a problem. And trolling is what you are doing, you show all the classic signs and all the use all the ticks in the book. Don't know if you get paid or not, though. Ah well, play time is over, good luck my Russian friend.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... 26-million
https://news.sky.com/story/facebook-rus ... n-11219181
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/01/us/p ... ebook.html


Each of these 126 million of Americans sees tens, if not hundreds of such ads every day. One or even 10 showings of it to each over the course of even 4 months have subzero chance to change anything. And the advertiser understands that. Having said that - it's time for the USA to move forward and start running their country. And loser Democrats - admit the loss and reform the party. But none of that is happening. They have better and more important things to do in the USA than pursue this matter.


So tell me Anrec80, why is Putin's government so stupid to invest millions if it doesn't do anything as you claim? Do I have the government of your country in higher regards, then you? Interesting.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:06 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
In the US we watch videos of people doing insane risky things, the wildest of these frequently involve Russians. Russians don't mind risks, you don't think your government hasn't gone a bit too far this time? You escalated it. You didn't keep your retaliation "measured". We now have a destabilized US and I worry WE will go too far because we have no good leadership to act as a voice of reason right now. Do you not get that our government is designed where only a competent leader can steer it and in the absence of that it actually runs itself? You're in a collision course with our military.


Government runs itself? Yes, this is exactly what is happening in Washington DC - the country isn't being governed, it runs "by itself". In foreign policy, you have failures and disasters all over for the past decade, and especially for the past year. Very few and rather limited successes. It's really like a runaway train. Where does it run and where will it arrive - who knows? But by itself, it won't come to any good place.

And speaking of your military - have you heard of a notion of strategic nuclear containment? For this reason, even North Korea isn't really afraid of you. And you are trying to tackle Russia, who, just as you, is the only other power in the world who has fully deployed nuclear triad. Including submarines with dozens of warheads within tens of miles from New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco. Your Boston can be a target too. So it's you who are on the collision course. And I really don't think you should talk that language - only completely frozen off chicken heads like Hillary or Sarah Palin talked like that. Even John McCain never did.


Your submarines don't go unnoticed on our coast, my friend. My point is, there is no Obama in charge to back down on a "red line" now. With both of us in Syria and both of us trying to stake out the black sea, aren't we coming too close to an international incident that can get out of hand fast? It's a legitimate concern, not a threat. Neither of us has a leader that will de-escalate such a situation.
 
salttee
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:09 am

anrec80 wrote:
Government runs itself? Yes, this is exactly what is happening in Washington DC - the country isn't being governed, it runs "by itself". In foreign policy, you have failures and disasters all over for the past decade, and especially for the past year. Very few and rather limited successes. It's really like a runaway train. Where does it run and where will it arrive - who knows? But by itself, it won't come to any good place.

This is all fine and dandy for you to have these opinions and to state them publicly. But that's not the issue Jouhou is raising. Russia has interfered with our internal political system. That is not acceptable and that behavior will not stand.

It is reckless and without any redeeming quality for you or us.
 
blrsea
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:10 am

Its not like the US is lily-white. It has interfered in many countries, helping dictators and monarchies stay in power. The color revolutions in the last decade were funded by US. Getting rid of secular governments in Libya and Syria and turning blind eye to ISIS initially was what caused the headache in ME now. To act all uptight now and claiming moral highground because some other country allegedly interfered in their election is irony of the highest order
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:25 am

Jouhou wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
You just jumped the shark with that comment, by what credible source do you get Putin being worth $200 billion, really what would be the point in him acquiring such wealth, he can’t spend it, he has no need of it and nobody can prove he has it.


I said it has "some credibility". It's known there's a whole lot of money laundered out of Russia, it's hard to tell without the nations of the world stepping up enforcement of their own laws.

It's my personal belief that it's meant for international leverage, not just for having a personal stockpile. I'll leave Dutchy to dig up the article that said $200 Billion but like I said, it's laundered, who knows. But it's a topic of interest due to what the Orange butthole is seemingly mixed up in. So more attention is on the subject right now and it seems all it needed was the light shown on it.

Edit: I literally didn't check my own wording prior to writing that. I meant it has some credibility.


I said up to $200billion, this episode is hilarious and sad all at the same time and calls his stealings $40billion - $80billion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0utzB6oDan0

But Putin has been connected to robbing the state since his days in St Petersburg, robbing donated money from the west for the people in need in the early nineties till this day with his expensive watches and his $ 3.000 tracksuit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:26 am

blrsea wrote:
Its not like the US is lily-white. It has interfered in many countries, helping dictators and monarchies stay in power. The color revolutions in the last decade were funded by US. Getting rid of secular governments in Libya and Syria and turning blind eye to ISIS initially was what caused the headache in ME now. To act all uptight now and claiming moral highground because some other country allegedly interfered in their election is irony of the highest order


True and it is a whataboutism, we are talking about Russia....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:30 am

blrsea wrote:
Its not like the US is lily-white. It has interfered in many countries, helping dictators and monarchies stay in power. The color revolutions in the last decade were funded by US. Getting rid of secular governments in Libya and Syria and turning blind eye to ISIS initially was what caused the headache in ME now. To act all uptight now and claiming moral highground because some other country allegedly interfered in their election is irony of the highest order
Somehow you're missing the point. If you think heightening tensions between nuclear powers is a good idea you're living a delusion, unless your goal is nuclear war, or bringing Russia back on its knees al la 1989 all over again. This time around you don't even have the CIS states as allies. So please explain your self. Where do you see this headed?
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:31 am

blrsea wrote:
Its not like the US is lily-white. It has interfered in many countries, helping dictators and monarchies stay in power. The color revolutions in the last decade were funded by US. Getting rid of secular governments in Libya and Syria and turning blind eye to ISIS initially was what caused the headache in ME now. To act all uptight now and claiming moral highground because some other country allegedly interfered in their election is irony of the highest order


That's not what's being discussed. What's being discussed is Russia playing a game of chicken with us while we have a moron at the helm. Even if Russia has *his* loyalty he's too incompetent to be able to reign in a situation before it gets out of hand. We're a cumbersome bureaucracy, we aren't controlled by a single man. You need someone competent at the top to avert a crisis.
 
blrsea
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:37 am

Dutchy wrote:
True and it is a whataboutism, we are talking about Russia....


yeah, but its not like they are the only ones who did it. Its like a robber getting angry that someone stole his car!

Jouhou wrote:
That's not what's being discussed. What's being discussed is Russia playing a game of chicken with us while we have a moron at the helm. Even if Russia has *his* loyalty he's too incompetent to be able to reign in a situation before it gets out of hand. We're a cumbersome bureaucracy, we aren't controlled by a single man. You need someone competent at the top to avert a crisis.


Well, your country elected him and now if you can prove it was rigged, go to Supreme Court and challenge it. When it is not even clear whether the Russians attempt had any influence or how much influence it would have had, its just pissing into the wind.

salttee wrote:
Somehow you're missing the point. If you think heightening tensions between nuclear powers is a good idea you're living a delusion, unless your goal is nuclear war, or bringing Russia back on its knees al la 1989 all over again. This time around you don't even have the CIS states as allies. So please explain your self. Where do you see this headed?


The Ukraine issue had more potential to escalate few years back than the alleged election rigging. US and Russia have been proxy fighting in ME again and its back to coldwar times. So what's new?
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:47 am

blrsea wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
True and it is a whataboutism, we are talking about Russia....


yeah, but its not like they are the only ones who did it. Its like a robber getting angry that someone stole his car!

Jouhou wrote:
That's not what's being discussed. What's being discussed is Russia playing a game of chicken with us while we have a moron at the helm. Even if Russia has *his* loyalty he's too incompetent to be able to reign in a situation before it gets out of hand. We're a cumbersome bureaucracy, we aren't controlled by a single man. You need someone competent at the top to avert a crisis.


Well, your country elected him and now if you can prove it was rigged, go to Supreme Court and challenge it. When it is not even clear whether the Russians attempt had any influence or how much influence it would have had, its just pissing into the wind.

salttee wrote:
Somehow you're missing the point. If you think heightening tensions between nuclear powers is a good idea you're living a delusion, unless your goal is nuclear war, or bringing Russia back on its knees al la 1989 all over again. This time around you don't even have the CIS states as allies. So please explain your self. Where do you see this headed?


The Ukraine issue had more potential to escalate few years back than the alleged election rigging. US and Russia have been proxy fighting in ME again and its back to coldwar times. So what's new?


That's great but you aren't addressing how an essentially leaderless US is dangerous operating in the same territory as an increasingly reckless Russia.
 
blrsea
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:47 am

Jouhou wrote:
blrsea wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
True and it is a whataboutism, we are talking about Russia....


yeah, but its not like they are the only ones who did it. Its like a robber getting angry that someone stole his car!

Jouhou wrote:
That's not what's being discussed. What's being discussed is Russia playing a game of chicken with us while we have a moron at the helm. Even if Russia has *his* loyalty he's too incompetent to be able to reign in a situation before it gets out of hand. We're a cumbersome bureaucracy, we aren't controlled by a single man. You need someone competent at the top to avert a crisis.


Well, your country elected him and now if you can prove it was rigged, go to Supreme Court and challenge it. When it is not even clear whether the Russians attempt had any influence or how much influence it would have had, its just pissing into the wind.

salttee wrote:
Somehow you're missing the point. If you think heightening tensions between nuclear powers is a good idea you're living a delusion, unless your goal is nuclear war, or bringing Russia back on its knees al la 1989 all over again. This time around you don't even have the CIS states as allies. So please explain your self. Where do you see this headed?


The Ukraine issue had more potential to escalate few years back than the alleged election rigging. US and Russia have been proxy fighting in ME again and its back to coldwar times. So what's new?


That's great but you aren't addressing how an essentially leaderless US is dangerous operating in the same territory as an increasingly reckless Russia.


You are calling it "reckless" because you think they are doing something in a rash way without thinking about consequence. But are they? Whether the US is leaderless or not is a debatable issue. The US has many levers to ensure that it won't be a one-man show like Russia. So I don't know why people are blaming Russia for lack of their leadership. If at all, Russia is taking advantage of the situation, just like the US did when Russia was doddering in the 90s after Gorbachev.
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:03 am

blrsea wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
blrsea wrote:

yeah, but its not like they are the only ones who did it. Its like a robber getting angry that someone stole his car!



Well, your country elected him and now if you can prove it was rigged, go to Supreme Court and challenge it. When it is not even clear whether the Russians attempt had any influence or how much influence it would have had, its just pissing into the wind.



The Ukraine issue had more potential to escalate few years back than the alleged election rigging. US and Russia have been proxy fighting in ME again and its back to coldwar times. So what's new?


That's great but you aren't addressing how an essentially leaderless US is dangerous operating in the same territory as an increasingly reckless Russia.


You are calling it "reckless" because you think they are doing something in a rash way without thinking about consequence. But are they? Whether the US is leaderless or not is a debatable issue. The US has many levers to ensure that it won't be a one-man show like Russia. So I don't know why people are blaming Russia for lack of their leadership. If at all, Russia is taking advantage of the situation, just like the US did when Russia was doddering in the 90s after Gorbachev.

https://youtu.be/ylONaw4ODuk

Russia likes to show off by doing things like this. Trump has gutted the state department (aka we have a small fraction of the diplomats we once did) and a leader who can't lead. If something happened like with Turkey shooting down a Russian plane, Trump would probably say something that would make the situation worse, even if he's trying to make Putin happy. He can't lead his own people, and he falls flat on his face on a global stage.

He'd end up blowing the world up in a real crisis. (exaggeration for the non English speakers who take things too literally)
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:09 am

salttee wrote:
If you think heightening tensions between nuclear powers is a good idea you're living a delusion, unless your goal is nuclear war, or bringing Russia back on its knees al la 1989 all over again. This time around you don't even have the CIS states as allies. So please explain your self. Where do you see this headed?

the payback hasn't grown in you. You can certainly try it. And then from your cities will only slag and ashes.
 
WIederling
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:30 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Exactly my point. Russia doesn't even know where it begins and where it end.


That is more of an issue with the USofA and its government/people.
You find them in all the places were they don't belong. Smashing the porcelaine :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:36 am

WIederling wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Exactly my point. Russia doesn't even know where it begins and where it end.


That is more of an issue with the USofA and its government/people.
You find them in all the places were they don't belong. Smashing the porcelaine :-)


Then why aren't you as concerned about our idiot in chief?
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:38 am

Scorpius wrote:
salttee wrote:
If you think heightening tensions between nuclear powers is a good idea you're living a delusion, unless your goal is nuclear war, or bringing Russia back on its knees al la 1989 all over again. This time around you don't even have the CIS states as allies. So please explain your self. Where do you see this headed?

the payback hasn't grown in you. You can certainly try it. And then from your cities will only slag and ashes.


Oh there he is being friendly again! Your cities will be slag and ashes too you lil cutie :3
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:58 am

Scorpius wrote:
salttee wrote:
If you think heightening tensions between nuclear powers is a good idea you're living a delusion, unless your goal is nuclear war, or bringing Russia back on its knees al la 1989 all over again. This time around you don't even have the CIS states as allies. So please explain your self. Where do you see this headed?

the payback hasn't grown in you. You can certainly try it. And then from your cities will only slag and ashes.


You apparently see it as a strength to talk about nuclear war like that, I see it as a weakness, can't win so threatening with the destruction of all. Totally irresponsible if your government would think like that because they have the ability to destroy the world.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:01 pm

Jouhou wrote:
WIederling wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Exactly my point. Russia doesn't even know where it begins and where it end.


That is more of an issue with the USofA and its government/people.
You find them in all the places were they don't belong. Smashing the porcelaine :-)


Then why aren't you as concerned about our idiot in chief?

I am. though it is not my idiot in chief.

.. and the reason why I think that though following their own interest
the Russian Federation is intervening in a much more constructive way than the US.
( obviously that is not difficult.)
Last edited by WIederling on Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:15 pm

Jouhou wrote:

Oh there he is being friendly again! Your cities will be slag and ashes too you lil cutie :3

We are satisfied with this price. And you?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:49 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Oh there he is being friendly again! Your cities will be slag and ashes too you lil cutie :3

We are satisfied with this price. And you?


Who is "we"? And typical lose-lose solution. If I may speak for my self, war is never the solution and nuclear war is insane. So you are satisfied with an insane price. Duly noted.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Oh there he is being friendly again! Your cities will be slag and ashes too you lil cutie :3

We are satisfied with this price. And you?


Who is "we"? And typical lose-lose solution. If I may speak for my self, war is never the solution and nuclear war is insane. So you are satisfied with an insane price. Duly noted.


Here I thought he was reciting Russian love poetry!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:56 pm

A Dutch member of parliament (and of course it is our extreme right winged PVV-er, mr. Wilders) is in Russia at the moment. He wore this:

Image

You can read the reactions of the people whom were left behind after the MH17 shot down here: https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/nabestaand ... 8be7e4eeb1

(In Dutch but Google translate is your friend)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:37 pm

WIederling wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
WIederling wrote:

That is more of an issue with the USofA and its government/people.
You find them in all the places were they don't belong. Smashing the porcelaine :-)


Then why aren't you as concerned about our idiot in chief?

I am. though it is not my idiot in chief.

.. and the reason why I think that though following their own interest
the Russian Federation is intervening in a much more constructive way than the US.
( obviously that is not difficult.)


So you think the USA sucks, so it's OK for Russia to put an idiot in our office because somehow that helps. This goes right up there with Russians being quick to threaten nuclear holocaust.
Dutchy wrote:
A Dutch member of parliament (and of course it is our extreme right winged PVV-er, mr. Wilders) is in Russia at the moment. He wore this:

Image

You can read the reactions of the people whom were left behind after the MH17 shot down here: https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/nabestaand ... 8be7e4eeb1

(In Dutch but Google translate is your friend)


Reminds me of how I find patriotic Americans painting wooden pallets by the board in Red white and blue and I ask them " Oh is that supposed to be the Russian flag or Dutch flag? French maybe? because it's not the U.S. Flag. " never ceases to amuse me.

Geert looks even more like an evil oompa lumpa than Trump. Of course he's going to snuggle up with his Russian benefactors.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:43 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Geert looks even more like an evil oompa lumpa than Trump. Of course he's going to snuggle up with his Russian benefactors.


Well, Wilders is smarter than Trump I give him that, but he might have overplayed his hand this time to do this with the MH17 not yet finished and Russia still denying playing any part in it. What I find intriguing that Wilders is snuggling up to Russia, he used to be funded by the extreme side of US Jewish lobby and he was/is cozy to the Israeli, but that source of income has hit a dry spell I guess. For Russia to cozy up to those political forces that would like to bring the EU down is well known, a large "loan" was extended to Front National last year with the Presidential elections there.

It is sad and fitting at the same time.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:56 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Geert looks even more like an evil oompa lumpa than Trump. Of course he's going to snuggle up with his Russian benefactors.


Well, Wilders is smarter than Trump I give him that, but he might have overplayed his hand this time to do this with the MH17 not yet finished and Russia still denying playing any part in it. What I find intriguing that Wilders is snuggling up to Russia, he used to be funded by the extreme side of US Jewish lobby and he was/is cozy to the Israeli, but that source of income has hit a dry spell I guess. For Russia to cozy up to those political forces that would like to bring the EU down is well known, a large "loan" was extended to Front National last year with the Presidential elections there.

It is sad and fitting at the same time.


"Russia Denies" is like "Florida Man". I doubt we will ever see the headline "Russia acknowledges they screwed up and apologizes for the tragic deaths of innocent civilians", unfortunately.


They acknowledged the shoot down of the Korean Airlines over Siberia. eventually. So there is still room for them to come clean. Ah well, in the meantime let's wait and see what is going to happen in the Dutch Justice system.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Geert looks even more like an evil oompa lumpa than Trump. Of course he's going to snuggle up with his Russian benefactors.


Well, Wilders is smarter than Trump I give him that, but he might have overplayed his hand this time to do this with the MH17 not yet finished and Russia still denying playing any part in it. What I find intriguing that Wilders is snuggling up to Russia, he used to be funded by the extreme side of US Jewish lobby and he was/is cozy to the Israeli, but that source of income has hit a dry spell I guess. For Russia to cozy up to those political forces that would like to bring the EU down is well known, a large "loan" was extended to Front National last year with the Presidential elections there.

It is sad and fitting at the same time.


"Russia Denies" is like "Florida Man". I doubt we will ever see the headline "Russia acknowledges they screwed up and apologizes for the tragic deaths of innocent civilians", unfortunately.
 
seb146
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:03 pm

blrsea wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
blrsea wrote:

yeah, but its not like they are the only ones who did it. Its like a robber getting angry that someone stole his car!



Well, your country elected him and now if you can prove it was rigged, go to Supreme Court and challenge it. When it is not even clear whether the Russians attempt had any influence or how much influence it would have had, its just pissing into the wind.



The Ukraine issue had more potential to escalate few years back than the alleged election rigging. US and Russia have been proxy fighting in ME again and its back to coldwar times. So what's new?


That's great but you aren't addressing how an essentially leaderless US is dangerous operating in the same territory as an increasingly reckless Russia.


You are calling it "reckless" because you think they are doing something in a rash way without thinking about consequence. But are they? Whether the US is leaderless or not is a debatable issue. The US has many levers to ensure that it won't be a one-man show like Russia. So I don't know why people are blaming Russia for lack of their leadership. If at all, Russia is taking advantage of the situation, just like the US did when Russia was doddering in the 90s after Gorbachev.


Russia does have a very strong one-man leadership in place. Putin will not leave office until he is dead. Even then, it will be a strong man that Putin himself groomed for the position. As far as the American elections, we got exactly the leader Putin wanted. Go down the list of GOP candidates from the last election. Any of them would have handled Putin much differently. But, because tRump has business interests and (probably) debts to Russia, Putin wanted him. And many Americans gladly went along with what Putin wanted.
You say Merry Christmas, I say All Holidays Matter
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:53 pm

I think that even Putin didn't think Trump would be the next president. I think the aim was to weaken President Clinton, but it got a bit out of hand. Trump polarizes Americans and thus weakens the country. In the win-lose wold of Putin, Putin wins.

Added Bonus, Trump said he wanted more solitaire road America was going to take.
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anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:

So tell me Anrec80, why is Putin's government so stupid to invest millions if it doesn't do anything as you claim? Do I have the government of your country in higher regards, then you? Interesting.


That I won’t know. Personally I also think it would be good for this PR firm to make a press release or issue some statements as to what this order was, who is the customer, who’s the target audience. I am curious in that myself. That would have eliminated a lot of these concerns. But it could be that in today’s political climate a Western media simply won’t accept any statements from a Russian entity, being afraid of accused in propaganda.

But in any case, obviously, the impact of it is not even measurable. This whole matter doesn’t require more than 15 minutes of time in congress, let alone 1.5 years of the highest priority.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:29 pm

Jouhou wrote:

Your submarines don't go unnoticed on our coast, my friend. My point is, there is no Obama in charge to back down on a "red line" now. With both of us in Syria and both of us trying to stake out the black sea, aren't we coming too close to an international incident that can get out of hand fast? It's a legitimate concern, not a threat. Neither of us has a leader that will de-escalate such a situation.


Now you’ve made perhaps the most important point. It’s primarily your Congress that keeps hearing up and escalating the situation. As I mentioned - the impact of this Facebook ad thing is barely noticeable, if at all. The intrusions by the US officials have been systemically outpacing this one; there are plenty of examples.

When Hillary endorsed opposition’s illegal protests, Russian government enacted series of laws. When recently US Ambassador John Huntsman criticized choice of candidates (meaning Mr. Navalny not allowed to run), he was simply called to Foreign Affairs Ministry and pointed that this is unacceptable and should stop. But in neither case Russians imposed any sanctions or made changes to their military doctrines over these.

You, however, made another step towards escalation out of no reason. Elections is always a big event, and there will be all sorts of small scale intrusion, illegal voting (such as in some states an illegal immigrant can potentially vote). Candidate promotions within ethnic communities - dozen of small scale things that end up having barely measurable impact combined together and certainly not impacting the general outcome. And - over just one of such things your Congress made yet another step towards a nuclear disaster.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:47 pm

salttee wrote:
This is all fine and dandy for you to have these opinions and to state them publicly. But that's not the issue Jouhou is raising. Russia has interfered with our internal political system. That is not acceptable and that behavior will not stand.

It is reckless and without any redeeming quality for you or us.


Elections are a huge scale event, and I bet you there were dozens of “meddling” episodes such as this one. They all even combined together have no noticeable or measurable impact. This one, given its tiny scale, obviously did not intend and could not have had any impact either. I wish someone could explain what those ads were, who was the customer and target audience. There is nothing to discuss even here, let alone escalate another Cold War or throw 1.5 years out of your country’s Life.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:54 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I think that even Putin didn't think Trump would be the next president. I think the aim was to weaken President Clinton, but it got a bit out of hand. Trump polarizes Americans and thus weakens the country. In the win-lose wold of Putin, Putin wins.

Added Bonus, Trump said he wanted more solitaire road America was going to take.


Zhirinovsky did foresee him winning though. Putin - I don’t think he even cared. Clinton and her gathering was well known to Russians.
 
salttee
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:30 am

anrec80 wrote:
Elections are a huge scale event, and I bet you there were dozens of “meddling” episodes such as this one. They all even combined together have no noticeable or measurable impact. This one, given its tiny scale, obviously did not intend and could not have had any impact either. I wish someone could explain what those ads were, who was the customer and target audience. There is nothing to discuss even here, let alone escalate another Cold War or throw 1.5 years out of your country’s Life.


anrec80 wrote:
As I mentioned - the impact of this Facebook ad thing is barely noticeable, if at all.
it is remarkable how closely in lockstep are Putin's crowd and Donald Trump.

anrec80 wrote:
You, however, made another step towards escalation out of no reason. Elections is always a big event, and there will be all sorts of small scale intrusion, illegal voting (such as in some states an illegal immigrant can potentially vote). Candidate promotions within ethnic communities - dozen of small scale things that end up having barely measurable impact combined together and certainly not impacting the general outcome. And - over just one of such things


anrec80 wrote:
your Congress made yet another step towards a nuclear disaster.

I'm not going to spend any time arguing with Putin's trolls.

But I will save this most revealing boast for a day that I might want to rebut Russian trolls.
Scorpius wrote:
the payback hasn't grown in you. You can certainly try it. And then from your cities will only slag and ashes.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:37 am

The world has truly become a dark place with Klepto's & despots in power everywhere.

Putin, Trump, Xi Jinpeng, Modi, Erdogan and a dozen others in charge in their respective areas. A very different world from where Eisenhowers & Nehru's called the shots.

The only thing that can set this right is a public revolt - an uprising like the Russian Revolution that will overthrow these Klepto's and restore world order!

Despite what we saw last week with the brave kids in Florida, I don't think we will ever see any revolution of that scale coming out of America. But I do hope the Russians, Chinese & Indian's rise up in revolt to uproot the klepto's in their respective countries.

America doesnt quite have that culture of revolt. So they are screwed for some time.
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:30 am

BawliBooch wrote:
The world has truly become a dark place with Klepto's & despots in power everywhere.

Putin, Trump, Xi Jinpeng, Modi, Erdogan and a dozen others in charge in their respective areas. A very different world from where Eisenhowers & Nehru's called the shots.

The only thing that can set this right is a public revolt - an uprising like the Russian Revolution that will overthrow these Klepto's and restore world order!

Despite what we saw last week with the brave kids in Florida, I don't think we will ever see any revolution of that scale coming out of America. But I do hope the Russians, Chinese & Indian's rise up in revolt to uproot the klepto's in their respective countries.

America doesnt quite have that culture of revolt. So they are screwed for some time.


In the US, money is free speech. If all the regular citizens pool their money, we could buy back our politicians and make laws to keep money out of politics. Idealistic yes, but actually possible.

Also, how are there multiple Russians bringing the conversation to threats of nuclear war? That's insane.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:31 am

Dutchy wrote:
A Dutch member of parliament (and of course it is our extreme right winged PVV-er, mr. Wilders) is in Russia at the moment. He wore this:

Image

You can read the reactions of the people whom were left behind after the MH17 shot down here: https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/nabestaand ... 8be7e4eeb1

(In Dutch but Google translate is your friend)


Haha. You guys must have some avant-garde thinking politicians! You current mainstream elite is so used to looking across the Pond that can't imagine life outside of it. And now on the Western side of Atlantic there isn't anything or anyone for them anyway. No master, no mentor. Nobody in the USA cares about poor Western European leaders, and they just can't see what to do. So - going to the East to see what's there is natural - why not? I have heard of Mr. Wilders before, but can't speak how skilled politician he is. But at least he doesn't seem to be locking his thinking and his view of the world in the West, and goes to see what's happening on the East. I think that is good for the country.
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:36 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
A Dutch member of parliament (and of course it is our extreme right winged PVV-er, mr. Wilders) is in Russia at the moment. He wore this:

Image

You can read the reactions of the people whom were left behind after the MH17 shot down here: https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/nabestaand ... 8be7e4eeb1

(In Dutch but Google translate is your friend)


Haha. You guys must have some avant-garde thinking politicians! You current mainstream elite is so used to looking across the Pond that can't imagine life outside of it. And now on the Western side of Atlantic there isn't anything or anyone for them anyway. No master, no mentor. Nobody in the USA cares about poor Western European leaders, and they just can't see what to do. So - going to the East to see what's there is natural - why not? I have heard of Mr. Wilders before, but can't speak how skilled politician he is. But at least he doesn't seem to be locking his thinking and his view of the world in the West, and goes to see what's happening on the East. I think that is good for the country.


The rest of the Netherlands might be more willing to look "East" if Russia could swallow their pride for long enough to take responsibility for MH17 and apologize. Is admitting wrongdoing and apologizing considered weak in Russia or something?
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:48 am

Jouhou wrote:
In the US, money is free speech. If all the regular citizens pool their money, we could buy back our politicians and make laws to keep money out of politics. Idealistic yes, but actually possible.

Also, how are there multiple Russians bringing the conversation to threats of nuclear war? That's insane.


It doesn't take "citizens" unfortunately. Even if you organize a strong crowd-funded movement, your politicians will agree to take your money and do what you ask. But as soon as financial pitfall starts dropping - they will find other donors/customers. To do this properly, you need to overhaul entirely your political system, and it takes really skilled leadership.

An example of such - our great friend Mr. Putin, who actually has done a few rounds of such exercise. In late 90s, Russia used to be corrupt inside-out oligarch republic, where a dozen or two "tough guys" pretty much owned the whole country - not unlike what you have here in the USA. Later - he convinced some Oligarchs to agree to play by state's rules, and those who did not want were either jailed (Khodorkovsky) or pushed out (Berezovsky; did not end well in London). As the result - the state is strengthened. Second round (circa 2012) involved public declarations of all businesses and business interests inside the country, and prohibition for state officials to own property or bank accounts outside. And - that worked. Plus they incorporate other political traditions as well. Now in Russia they don't have a notion of oligarchs - but there is a notion of a wealthy individual. Also - corporations (even large state owned) don't have much political influence.
 
MSPbrandon
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:48 am

anrec80 wrote:
CCGPV wrote:
Good to see some new ground being covered here guys. I think we are close to finding a solution. Keep up the good work of working through the issues in a calm way.

Have some of you thought about running for office? Your unique, new, and levelheaded opinions could be refreshing.


You do not want me in the office. I am not democratic and tolerant enough. With me, I'd say, you'll be living under an oppressive regime.


Well at least you are self aware.

Putin would like you. Maybe he will appoint you his successor :yuck:
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:51 am

Jouhou wrote:
Also, how are there multiple Russians bringing the conversation to threats of nuclear war? That's insane.


We aren't bringing anything. You are talking about "collision course with US military". In addition, Russia's nuclear doctrine involves use of nuclear weapons only when the country is under attack and by the means of conventional military the threat can't be defeated. In USA, on the contrary, Trump won't mind to use nuclear weapons "in special circumstances to protect country's interests and values". Basically - as he pleases pretty much.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:02 am

MSPbrandon wrote:

Well at least you are self aware.

Putin would like you. Maybe he will appoint you his successor :yuck:


I am, thank you. But I don't think I want to take his spot. See - for such guy, once he is in such demand, is gaining 75% of votes and become irreplaceable, he needs to have someone to hand the country to. And he is busy building out political parties in the country into institutions capable to select and grow such leaders. Putin said number of times - he does not want to be President for life. But - his 2008 replacement (Medvedev) wasn't quite a fit for such responsibility. Medvedev is a fine PM, executing on internal development strategy, but not suited for leadership, especially given some of his replicas (e.g. "there is no money, but you hang in there!").

And this is true not only for Putin. Belarus president Lukashenko is in the same boat ("I am fed up with this presidency").
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:04 am

Jouhou wrote:
The rest of the Netherlands might be more willing to look "East" if Russia could swallow their pride for long enough to take responsibility for MH17 and apologize. Is admitting wrongdoing and apologizing considered weak in Russia or something?


Let's see first who has what proof. They don't have to admit anything they haven't done. And don't demand that.
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:15 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
The rest of the Netherlands might be more willing to look "East" if Russia could swallow their pride for long enough to take responsibility for MH17 and apologize. Is admitting wrongdoing and apologizing considered weak in Russia or something?


Let's see first who has what proof. They don't have to admit anything they haven't done. And don't demand that.


The proof has been obvious to anyone living outside of Russia... do you see chinese media pushing the Russian narrative? The answer is no. I just checked.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:03 am

Jouhou wrote:

The proof has been obvious to anyone living outside of Russia... do you see chinese media pushing the Russian narrative? The answer is no. I just checked.


What's "obvious"? "Obvious" means exactly that - no proof. :)

Speaking of China - they have better things to do except to play groundless blame game.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:52 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
The rest of the Netherlands might be more willing to look "East" if Russia could swallow their pride for long enough to take responsibility for MH17 and apologize. Is admitting wrongdoing and apologizing considered weak in Russia or something?


Let's see first who has what proof. They don't have to admit anything they haven't done. And don't demand that.


JIT has the proof that this specific BUK came from Russia and went to Russia after it shot down the MH17, they know which field it was fired from. The question left is what, not if, exactly was the role of the Russian government in this tragedy and who is responsible.

But as I have said before, fine you want to stick to the ridiculous stories coming from the Russian government. Just continue to deny and downplay the Russian role. I am quite confident Russia will stick to their story even after they have been convicted.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:00 pm

 
salttee
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:20 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Oh, cute. Maybe one of these forum members promoting nuclear war is Putin himself.
Nah, just part of a well orchestrated effort. I believe they're just practicing with us here at a.net; they're getting ready for the election season coming up.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:51 pm

Jouhou wrote:


Yes, indeed very timely. We’ve been just discussing submarines not too long ago. Fun stuff, isn’t it?
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
The rest of the Netherlands might be more willing to look "East" if Russia could swallow their pride for long enough to take responsibility for MH17 and apologize. Is admitting wrongdoing and apologizing considered weak in Russia or something?


Let's see first who has what proof. They don't have to admit anything they haven't done. And don't demand that.


JIT has the proof that this specific BUK came from Russia and went to Russia after it shot down the MH17, they know which field it was fired from. The question left is what, not if, exactly was the role of the Russian government in this tragedy and who is responsible.

But as I have said before, fine you want to stick to the ridiculous stories coming from the Russian government. Just continue to deny and downplay the Russian role. I am quite confident Russia will stick to their story even after they have been convicted.


Yeah - I’d like to reference today’s speech as well. I’d recommend your “independent court system” isn’t too keen to pick up that Bellingcat garbage. Since who knows what happens next.

If the next generation of American elite is more adequate - who knows what “big deal” with Russians will they cut. And what place you will take in this deal - maybe transferred into Russian area of responsibility? And you will have your relationships destroyed. So Mr. Wilders may well be forward-thinking...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:00 am

Lol, the great Russia idea again. :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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