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anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:03 am

Dutchy wrote:
Lol, the great Russia idea again. :lol:


There is nothing funny here for you, Dutchy. The article (and most Western media in general) doesn’t mention the most important things. The main point of latest Western (US-orchestrated, obviously) initiatives (beginning with Kiev Maindan and finishing latest Olympic things) was to hold Russia back, or contain it. Here the sanctions are in play, all these Bellingcat things, opposition support inside Russia, missile defense. One of the primary goals of all these was to weaken the country economically, institutionally, from military standpoint by gaining advantage. What’s been said and demonstrated today - all those efforts failed. And another point added - “you didn’t want to negotiate before; it’s time to start now”. So the sanctions didn’t achieve anything, you can start dismantling those.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:13 am

anrec80 wrote:
There is nothing funny here for you, Dutchy. The article (and most Western media in general) doesn’t mention the most important things. The main point of latest Western (US-orchestrated, obviously) initiatives (beginning with Kiev Maindan and finishing latest Olympic things) was to hold Russia back, or contain it. Here the sanctions are in play, all these Bellingcat things, opposition support inside Russia, missile defense. One of the primary goals of all these was to weaken the country economically, institutionally, from military standpoint by gaining advantage. What’s been said and demonstrated today - all those efforts failed. And another point added - “you didn’t want to negotiate before; it’s time to start now”. So the sanctions didn’t achieve anything, you can start dismantling those.

That is a serious persecution complex you have there. The sad part is that since the "persecution" (as described by you) it is not real, there can be no resolution. Basically Russia will keep focused on useless (or at least less useful) goals and weaken itself and its people.

That is something the Russian people will have to someday figure their way out of.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:30 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

Let's see first who has what proof. They don't have to admit anything they haven't done. And don't demand that.


JIT has the proof that this specific BUK came from Russia and went to Russia after it shot down the MH17, they know which field it was fired from. The question left is what, not if, exactly was the role of the Russian government in this tragedy and who is responsible.

But as I have said before, fine you want to stick to the ridiculous stories coming from the Russian government. Just continue to deny and downplay the Russian role. I am quite confident Russia will stick to their story even after they have been convicted.


Yeah - I’d like to reference today’s speech as well. I’d recommend your “independent court system” isn’t too keen to pick up that Bellingcat garbage. Since who knows what happens next.

If the next generation of American elite is more adequate - who knows what “big deal” with Russians will they cut. And what place you will take in this deal - maybe transferred into Russian area of responsibility? And you will have your relationships destroyed. So Mr. Wilders may well be forward-thinking...


"Spheres of Influence" over territories is obsolete in a world connected by the internet. We will independently associate through common values.

Also what is this exactly? Are you stroking yourself to some fantasy of Russia seizing control of the world? I suppose Putin would make an excellent Napoleon.
 
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HELyes
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:00 am

anrec80 wrote:
It's only a few Western countries and some dudes within those really. Finland has more than 1000km common border with Russia, and no issues there somehow.


There sure are issues every now and then. Nothing too dramatic but it seems Russia tests how Finland reacts when pressed a little.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:00 am

Tugger wrote:
That is a serious persecution complex you have there. The sad part is that since the "persecution" (as described by you) it is not real, there can be no resolution. Basically Russia will keep focused on useless (or at least less useful) goals and weaken itself and its people.

That is something the Russian people will have to someday figure their way out of.

Tugg


Where do you see "persecution complex" here? And what is not real - sanctions? Or missile defenses all over the world? Yes, it is the job of Russians, Russian leadership and Russian state to find a way out or around these. And they showed they successfully did.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:08 am

anrec80 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
That is a serious persecution complex you have there. The sad part is that since the "persecution" (as described by you) it is not real, there can be no resolution. Basically Russia will keep focused on useless (or at least less useful) goals and weaken itself and its people.

That is something the Russian people will have to someday figure their way out of.

Tugg


Where do you see "persecution complex" here? And what is not real - sanctions? Or missile defenses all over the world? Yes, it is the job of Russians, Russian leadership and Russian state to find a way out or around these. And they showed they successfully did.


Find a way out of missile defenses. Seriously is threatening the world with nukes all Russia cares about now?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:20 am

anrec80 wrote:
And they showed they successfully did.

No they didn't. They bloviated.

Russia has had the ability to nuke the US or any other country in the world, into radioactive slag for decades. This is nothing new or useful, or any more useful than what they have already. Missile defenses are limited in their usefulness (unless perhaps you have many multi thousands) and always have been because an aggressor like Russia (or the old USSR) can just build and send more missiles, more warheads, more decoys. It is vastly easier and cheaper to send "more" than to try and precision target and fight off more. That is just the truth of the situation.

And that is why these types of weapons are overall useless to "protect" any nation since if used it means the effective end of the nations as their are so terrible that they can only be reacted to terribly. And that is exactly what MAD is: Escalation to annihilation.

Such weapons allow dead people to kill other dead people.... Hooray! The dead won!!!

I don't have any fear of these weapons since they are useless. And your reaction to that statement will reflect your persecution complex since Russia has stated that these are only for defense and would only be used if attacked and never as a first strike. And since the US nor NATO will every do a first strike on Russia, no matter how much you fantasize or fear they would, they will never be used and are therefore useless and create no fear. The only fear people might have is a stupid loose canon in Russia doing something unthinkable.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:26 am

Nuclear war is a "cheap" way to maintain the facade of importance / relevence in the world. Practically it is very limited of course.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:32 am

anrec80 wrote:
So the sanctions didn’t achieve anything, you can start dismantling those.


If they don't work, why care about them? So let us have the illusion we do something against Russian aggression towards Ukraine and the annexation of Crimea. ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:38 am

Jouhou wrote:
"Spheres of Influence" over territories is obsolete in a world connected by the internet. We will independently associate through common values.

Also what is this exactly? Are you stroking yourself to some fantasy of Russia seizing control of the world? I suppose Putin would make an excellent Napoleon.


"Common values" - dude, you're so 90s. What values are we talking about? Sponsoring and organizing armed coups, overthrowing governments? Bombing other nations all over the globe? Maybe I don't see an elephant in the room?

Now on "spheres of influence". They are sort of obsolete - you are right perhaps. Their problem in 21st century - they are too expensive to maintain, with too little value. The only country in the world who still sticks to this notion is USA. Russia isn't really into those games - they aren't even going after Ukraine next to them, even though they can do it in a week. Crimea is enough for them. USA though have their reasons to stick to spheres of influence in Eurasia. That continent has 3/4 of world's population and 80% of world economy. In order to be able to run current deficits without much inflation, and maintain their current size of economy, it's crucial that the global trade (not only oil) is done in USD. Hence they are ready for everything in order to maintain this trade in USD, and USD as the world reserve currency. Especially this is true for oil trade. They also tried to include Russia into the sphere of influence in 90s, but in 2000s Russia got out of it. Then we had Kiev in 2014 and many other things - the goal was to get Russia and their neighboring countries into US sphere. Crimea clash has to do with this too.

Now let's look at the trends. Last US tried to get under their umbrella Syria as well. Russian involvement causes USA not only to lose footing in Syria, but also this loss weakens their positions in Middle East. US allies are looking north, Iraq and Afghanistan will eventually say USA thank you and ask to leave. This can be postponed for some time, but I don't see this as avoidable. And that's considerable loss of influence. Without that, American ability to hold Europe gets into question. If the game is lost for the USA, they become a North American regional power at best, and transformation process will be painful and risky to the very statehood of the USA (40-50% contraction of economy isn't a joke).

Here we come to the games of American elite groups. One of these groups sees this development, and prefers to take a break from attempts to hold these positions, negotiate some terms of the break in order to fix things back home to preserve a chance to retry later. Trump represents this group, and this is where the talks of "America first" and "big deal" are from (and my somewhat joking hint to Dutchy about Europe's "transfer"). The second one (led by Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton) elects to bet everything on the table, even risking real nuclear war. They prefer tighter control over other nations' elite, and this is where "common values" talks are from. Representatives of both of these groups are present within each Republicans and Democrats.

This is the story of 21st century. Russia showed today that their positions for negotiating the "big deal" are darn strong, and the "final bet" is very likely to loose, if at all possible to win.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:43 am

Dutchy wrote:
If they don't work, why care about them? So let us have the illusion we do something against Russian aggression towards Ukraine and the annexation of Crimea. ;)


Did Russians ever say they care about them? They made this situation work for themselves, and even made a nice amount of money off them. The incentives are there for you to get out - your farmers and industry are losing money; their Russian counterparts are gaining market share all over the world. If you want to lose real money, jobs and tax revenue over this illusion - please feel free.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:46 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
If they don't work, why care about them? So let us have the illusion we do something against Russian aggression towards Ukraine and the annexation of Crimea. ;)


Did Russians ever say they care about them? They made this situation work for themselves, and even made a nice amount of money off them. The incentives are there for you to get out - your farmers and industry are losing money; their Russian counterparts are gaining market share all over the world. If you want to lose real money, jobs and tax revenue over this illusion - please feel free.


ok great, we agree, let the sanctions in place. BTW agricultural products are your sanctions not ours ;)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:49 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
"Spheres of Influence" over territories is obsolete in a world connected by the internet. We will independently associate through common values.

Also what is this exactly? Are you stroking yourself to some fantasy of Russia seizing control of the world? I suppose Putin would make an excellent Napoleon.


"Common values" - dude, you're so 90s. What values are we talking about? Sponsoring and organizing armed coups, overthrowing governments? Bombing other nations all over the globe? Maybe I don't see an elephant in the room?

Now on "spheres of influence". They are sort of obsolete - you are right perhaps. Their problem in 21st century - they are too expensive to maintain, with too little value. The only country in the world who still sticks to this notion is USA. Russia isn't really into those games - they aren't even going after Ukraine next to them, even though they can do it in a week. Crimea is enough for them. USA though have their reasons to stick to spheres of influence in Eurasia. That continent has 3/4 of world's population and 80% of world economy. In order to be able to run current deficits without much inflation, and maintain their current size of economy, it's crucial that the global trade (not only oil) is done in USD. Hence they are ready for everything in order to maintain this trade in USD, and USD as the world reserve currency. Especially this is true for oil trade. They also tried to include Russia into the sphere of influence in 90s, but in 2000s Russia got out of it. Then we had Kiev in 2014 and many other things - the goal was to get Russia and their neighboring countries into US sphere. Crimea clash has to do with this too.

Now let's look at the trends. Last US tried to get under their umbrella Syria as well. Russian involvement causes USA not only to lose footing in Syria, but also this loss weakens their positions in Middle East. US allies are looking north, Iraq and Afghanistan will eventually say USA thank you and ask to leave. This can be postponed for some time, but I don't see this as avoidable. And that's considerable loss of influence. Without that, American ability to hold Europe gets into question. If the game is lost for the USA, they become a North American regional power at best, and transformation process will be painful and risky to the very statehood of the USA (40-50% contraction of economy isn't a joke).

Here we come to the games of American elite groups. One of these groups sees this development, and prefers to take a break from attempts to hold these positions, negotiate some terms of the break in order to fix things back home to preserve a chance to retry later. Trump represents this group, and this is where the talks of "America first" and "big deal" are from (and my somewhat joking hint to Dutchy about Europe's "transfer"). The second one (led by Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton) elects to bet everything on the table, even risking real nuclear war. They prefer tighter control over other nations' elite, and this is where "common values" talks are from. Representatives of both of these groups are present within each Republicans and Democrats.

This is the story of 21st century. Russia showed today that their positions for negotiating the "big deal" are darn strong, and the "final bet" is very likely to loose, if at all possible to win.


If all Russia wants is friends in the middle east, be my guest. Every damn citizen in the US is sick of knowing someone who dies or has a limb blown off over there. All for what? Oil? We have oil. Russia didn't need to persuade us here.

Common values talks? Maybe it's because the West realizes it's to no one's benefit to destabilize each other's economies by isolationism and warmongering rhetoric. Russia should try abstaining from these activities for once. It does wonders for not being sanctioned.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:51 am

Jouhou wrote:
Find a way out of missile defenses. Seriously is threatening the world with nukes all Russia cares about now?


Which "world" again? Other than USA and a few other European countries (not the biggest ones) nobody else feels threatened at all. Russian military doctrine does not involve using such weapons except in case of a nuclear attack, or an attack with some other WMD. Unlike American, where barrier to use nuclear arms is lowered to a "perception of a threat". Any threat really. See the difference?

And overall, politics of your country clearly demonstrated over the past 2 decades that the only language you understand is the language of nuclear containment. This is what the world has seen. Hence right after North Korean tests Trump stopped all his tough talk on North Korea - he knows that at some point he'd have to live up to these talks and actually involve into a nuclear conflict, with Seattle, LA, San Francisco being on the table. Hence it's better not to talk at all. And Putin today spoke exactly this language.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:52 am

Dutchy wrote:

ok great, we agree, let the sanctions in place. BTW agricultural products are your sanctions not ours ;)


Your market loss.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:56 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Find a way out of missile defenses. Seriously is threatening the world with nukes all Russia cares about now?


Which "world" again? Other than USA and a few other European countries (not the biggest ones) nobody else feels threatened at all. Russian military doctrine does not involve using such weapons except in case of a nuclear attack, or an attack with some other WMD. Unlike American, where barrier to use nuclear arms is lowered to a "perception of a threat". Any threat really. See the difference?

And overall, politics of your country clearly demonstrated over the past 2 decades that the only language you understand is the language of nuclear containment. This is what the world has seen. Hence right after North Korean tests Trump stopped all his tough talk on North Korea - he knows that at some point he'd have to live up to these talks and actually involve into a nuclear conflict, with Seattle, LA, San Francisco being on the table. Hence it's better not to talk at all. And Putin today spoke exactly this language.


What? Trumps administration is doing all they can to prevent him from doing something stupid with North Korea. And Russia knows it, remember why I posted this thread in the first place?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:06 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

ok great, we agree, let the sanctions in place. BTW agricultural products are your sanctions not ours ;)


Your market loss.


Loss of a market with the size of the BeNeLux? I think we will survive (records are broken with exports of these products). Russia just isn't that important.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:17 am

Jouhou wrote:
If all Russia wants is friends in the middle east, be my guest. Every damn citizen in the US is sick of knowing someone who dies or has a limb blown off over there. All for what? Oil? We have oil. Russia didn't need to persuade us here.

Common values talks? Maybe it's because the West realizes it's to no one's benefit to destabilize each other's economies by isolationism and warmongering rhetoric. Russia should try abstaining from these activities for once. It does wonders for not being sanctioned.


Did you understand everything about my post? "Politics is a concentrated form of economics".

There is nothing called "friends" in global politics. There can be allies, and even those are never eternal generally. I wouldn't view Assad as Putin's "friend", he is the legitimate leader of his country. It's just he did not run away like Yanukovich at the first signs of trouble, but was seeking help and found it. Russia did have interests there - to preserve Syrian statehood and not allow it to fall into bloody hell. What the USA is doing in the Middle East? It's not oil at all. It's the petrodollar one thing, and role of the USD as the world's reserve currency. And it's worth it, really. If you get out, your own living standard will drop very sharply. Russia really does have their own interests there, primarily security interests that clash with American ones.

Recent sanctions nature is only somewhat different though. Russians and Europeans were trading oil/gas with Russians for decades via pipelines, and these sanctions are used as a tool to hopefully prevent growth of Russian energy market share in Europe, and make Europeans buy American shale oil/gas at double the price. Just dishonest competition and rude involvement into European affairs. Europeans don't like it of course, but who cares. The rest - Ukraine, Crimea, democracy, "values", "election meddling" are just blah-blah. The real things behind are different, and everyone involved into actual negotiations know it.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:26 am

Excuse me, the US can rip off its own with expensive natural gas. I live in a part of the country with zero fossil fuels resources. We are trying to get ourselves energy independent so we don't have to keep importing from elsewhere in the country.

And no seriously, we don't want the damn middle east. Maybe our oligarchs do, but we don't. We want nothing to do with it.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:32 am

Jouhou wrote:
What? Trumps administration is doing all they can to prevent him from doing something stupid with North Korea. And Russia knows it, remember why I posted this thread in the first place?


To prevent whom from doing what? Putin does not have anything to do with North Korean nuclear and ballistic programs, and know that. Your Ukrainian friends probably do. Putin doesn't need these North Korean "strategic" things just as you. As for "stupid" - it's been done already in 2000s, by you. Back then, a deal around North Korea nuclear program (somewhat like today's Iranian one) was about to be reached. But then George W Bush listed NK as a "terror sponsor" and imposed yet another round of sanctions. Even though it was obvious that NK couldn't have anything to do with 9/11 or terror of some sort whatsoever. Two totally unrelated issues. Expectedly, Kim John Il back then said WTF and resumed what he was doing. This is how you have this NK issue.

After that was Iraq, Libya, Syria. How you'll be convincing North Korean leadership to drop these programs now after all these things - who knows. Clearly, not happening any time soon. But obviously now it can't be solved by force. The last Trump's attempt by bluffing just made him look like a donkey.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:41 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
What? Trumps administration is doing all they can to prevent him from doing something stupid with North Korea. And Russia knows it, remember why I posted this thread in the first place?


To prevent whom from doing what? Putin does not have anything to do with North Korean nuclear and ballistic programs, and know that. Your Ukrainian friends probably do. Putin doesn't need these North Korean "strategic" things just as you. As for "stupid" - it's been done already in 2000s, by you. Back then, a deal around North Korea nuclear program (somewhat like today's Iranian one) was about to be reached. But then George W Bush listed NK as a "terror sponsor" and imposed yet another round of sanctions. Even though it was obvious that NK couldn't have anything to do with 9/11 or terror of some sort whatsoever. Two totally unrelated issues. Expectedly, Kim John Il back then said WTF and resumed what he was doing. This is how you have this NK issue.

After that was Iraq, Libya, Syria. How you'll be convincing North Korean leadership to drop these programs now after all these things - who knows. Clearly, not happening any time soon. But obviously now it can't be solved by force. The last Trump's attempt by bluffing just made him look like a donkey.


Like with the middle east, Russia doesn't need to persuade Americans that the Bush admin was terrible.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:25 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

ok great, we agree, let the sanctions in place. BTW agricultural products are your sanctions not ours ;)


Your market loss.

Wait, what? How would that be possible? You just said that all the sanctions did for Russia was improve its markets. That Russia made them work for them and made money off them... :
anrec80 wrote:
Did Russians ever say they care about them? They made this situation work for themselves, and even made a nice amount of money off them. The incentives are there for you to get out - your farmers and industry are losing money; their Russian counterparts are gaining market share all over the world. If you want to lose real money, jobs and tax revenue over this illusion - please feel free.


So the sanctions are a benefit to you and having Russia ban products from our market then is a benefit as well, no "market loss" at all.
Based on your statement that is.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:35 pm

Tugger wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

ok great, we agree, let the sanctions in place. BTW agricultural products are your sanctions not ours ;)


Your market loss.

Wait, what? How would that be possible? You just said that all the sanctions did for Russia was improve its markets. That Russia made them work for them and made money off them... :
anrec80 wrote:
Did Russians ever say they care about them? They made this situation work for themselves, and even made a nice amount of money off them. The incentives are there for you to get out - your farmers and industry are losing money; their Russian counterparts are gaining market share all over the world. If you want to lose real money, jobs and tax revenue over this illusion - please feel free.


So the sanctions are a benefit to you and having Russia ban products from our market then is a benefit as well, no "market loss" at all.
Based on your statement that is.

Tugg


No, what he actually is saying: Putin's government had 16 odd years to improve their homegrown agricultural business and he neglected it. Now with the sanctions imposed by the west and the reaction of the Russian government by a "sanctions" for their side now it is possible. So quite a daring move by our Russian friend to have this kind of criticism on the Putin regime.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:58 am

Tugger wrote:
Wait, what? How would that be possible? You just said that all the sanctions did for Russia was improve its markets. That Russia made them work for them and made money off them... :
Tugg


Did I ever say it was all? Yes, the sanctions (and response measures) boosted agriculture in Russia - they learned to make cheeses, boosted growth of wheat, pushing USA and Canada off leadership positions, and many more things. Something they wanted to do for decades - all those dreams came true. Many of their long time dreams came true once these sanctions were imposed. One of them - finally move away from oil and energy exports dependency.

But even that isn't the most important. What is - during Crimea campaign and all very tough and loud sanctions threat there were many shares of Russian commodity, mining and energy firms on the market. And as the screaming and threats intensified, the more shares were up for sale, and the lower their price was. Until one day all of that was bought up at fire sale price. Once transactions cleared and dust settled, it became clear that shares were bought by Cyprus firms, and behind these firms was - guess who? Russian government. It's estimated they made USD 20-30 billion on these transactions. And - returned to the state's ownership a significant number of their strategic enterprises. So see? It's really unpredictable where sanctions can get you. And what can you do? Go and open a case against Joe Biden and Victoria Nuland for market manipulation?
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:01 am

Dutchy wrote:

No, what he actually is saying: Putin's government had 16 odd years to improve their homegrown agricultural business and he neglected it. Now with the sanctions imposed by the west and the reaction of the Russian government by a "sanctions" for their side now it is possible. So quite a daring move by our Russian friend to have this kind of criticism on the Putin regime.


Why "daring"? In Russia, many criticize their government (legitimately and democratically elected BTW, not a "regime"). It's OK to do, there is no penalty. And in addition, constructive criticism is welcome; and generally has been welcome even during Stalin's time. Such as when one of Baltic governors complained on criticisms, the response from Moscow was "you gotta listen and improve".
 
salttee
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:15 am

anrec80 wrote:
(criticism) has been welcome even during Stalin's time.

You should go on a comedy tour.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:16 am

Jouhou wrote:
Like with the middle east, Russia doesn't need to persuade Americans that the Bush admin was terrible.


Terrible - compared to what and to whom? Yes, in my view he did 2 major mistakes - sticking into Afghanistan and Iraq. That said however, I am of high regards of Condoleezza Rice and US foreign policy under her. No "color revolutions" (US sponsored armed coups), no new wars, no bombing. Perhaps the most adequate foreign policy in 21st century. Even attempts to fix Iraq disaster by "troops surges" - you gotta give credit to them for this. Russia-Georgia in Aug 2008 was also handled perfectly adequately - Georgian President Saakashvili attacked Russian peacekeepers (who were UN-sanctioned), now it's up to him to handle the situation and the consequences. Maybe tough, but fair. Had the Ukrainian coup been handled the same way (e.g. "you seized the power illegally - you are on your own with all the problems and consequences"), 298 people of MH-17 would have been in this world with us.

Now - compare that to Hillary Clinton - ISIS birth and flourishing, Libya - where she lobbied bombings and, having left the region in ruins, Europe with all their refugees, and said "I am tired, I am leaving". The latter was pretty untalented.

I know it's not common to hear positive things about Bush's administration. But Hillary IMHO didn't perform at par even with them. John Kerry was only somewhat better.
Last edited by anrec80 on Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
Posts: 901
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:17 am

salttee wrote:
You should go on a comedy tour.


What's comic here? Stalin was one of the greatest leaders and achievers of the 20th century. What's your problem with that?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:28 am

anrec80 wrote:
(legitimately and democratically elected BTW, not a "regime").

:rotfl:

Of COURSE it is, it is the only real option. They jail or disqualify or file charges against (and puppet courts convict) any opposition.

Talk about a weak leadership.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
salttee
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:43 am

anrec80 wrote:
Stalin was one of the greatest leaders and achievers of the 20th century.
Khrushchev didn't think so.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:00 am

anrec80 wrote:
salttee wrote:
You should go on a comedy tour.


What's comic here? Stalin was one of the greatest leaders and achievers of the 20th century. What's your problem with that?


Either you don't know the History that Russia itself has acknowledged or you have a fetish for murderers.

Or you're a comedian.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:54 am

or a troll trying to provoke a reaction.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:04 am

salttee wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Stalin was one of the greatest leaders and achievers of the 20th century.
Khrushchev didn't think so.


Well, Khruschev maybe didn't. But now - guess what? As the time goes, more and more people think this way.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:08 am

Jouhou wrote:

Either you don't know the History that Russia itself has acknowledged or you have a fetish for murderers.

Or you're a comedian.


Well - let me throw some numbers on the table. In 1930s, both USSR and USA were countries with approximately the same population - about 150 mil. And - number of prisoners in GULAG in USSR was about the same as number of convicts in the USA. But we don't talk here about some sort of "bloody heritage of Roosevelt", do we?
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:12 am

Tugger wrote:
:rotfl:

Of COURSE it is, it is the only real option. They jail or disqualify or file charges against (and puppet courts convict) any opposition.

Talk about a weak leadership.

Tugg


Have you been watching the analysis of his yesterday's speech? It certainly wasn't one of weak leaders; rather that of a leader of a superpower. Speaking of opposition - there are 7 candidates to choose from. Including some with very liberal and pro-Western beliefs.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:18 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Either you don't know the History that Russia itself has acknowledged or you have a fetish for murderers.

Or you're a comedian.


Well - let me throw some numbers on the table. In 1930s, both USSR and USA were countries with approximately the same population - about 150 mil. And - number of prisoners in GULAG in USSR was about the same as number of convicts in the USA. But we don't talk here about some sort of "bloody heritage of Roosevelt", do we?


He doesn't know the history, I guess.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:32 am

anrec80 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
:rotfl:

Of COURSE it is, it is the only real option. They jail or disqualify or file charges against (and puppet courts convict) any opposition.

Talk about a weak leadership.

Tugg


Have you been watching the analysis of his yesterday's speech? It certainly wasn't one of weak leaders; rather that of a leader of a superpower. Speaking of opposition - there are 7 candidates to choose from. Including some with very liberal and pro-Western beliefs.



Sure, I can make a speech like a superpower, doesn't make me a leader of a superpower. Russia is a regional power, learn to come to grips with it.

Russia can have all their candidates that it wants to have, still an autocracy. Still ranked a respectful 122 place.

Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:48 am

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
:rotfl:

Of COURSE it is, it is the only real option. They jail or disqualify or file charges against (and puppet courts convict) any opposition.

Talk about a weak leadership.

Tugg


Have you been watching the analysis of his yesterday's speech? It certainly wasn't one of weak leaders; rather that of a leader of a superpower. Speaking of opposition - there are 7 candidates to choose from. Including some with very liberal and pro-Western beliefs.



Sure, I can make a speech like a superpower, doesn't make me a leader of a superpower. Russia is a regional power, learn to come to grips with it.

Russia can have all their candidates that it wants to have, still an autocracy. Still ranked a respectful 122 place.

Image


Dutchy, who cares about your democracy ratings? Do you really think this is something serious decisions in this world are being made based on? Sorry to disappoint you - they aren't. But - on what President Putin showed yesterday (missiles, aircraft) they are being made based on. They are also being made based on someone's willingness and ability to do impacting things. But certainly not on ratings.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:54 am

Dutchy wrote:
He doesn't know the history, I guess.


Stalin was running USSR for about 30 years. A lot happened during this time, and under his leadership the country achieved some tremendous successes. I am not saying there weren't any tragic deeds or history pages that can be forgiven or forgotten. However, he "took his country with a plow, and left it with an atomic bomb". Sure, leader of such scale must also have had quite notable personality traits - an average "gray" today's EU official doesn't have even 1/20th of his ability. So what part of the history you think I don't know or understand?
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:02 am

Dutchy wrote:

Sure, I can make a speech like a superpower, doesn't make me a leader of a superpower. Russia is a regional power, learn to come to grips with it.


Sure, you can make any speech you like. But when it comes to a world's leader - the story is different. First - his speech is being taken apart into quotes. Second - the real addressee of this speech/show is not you or general public, but other leaders, professionals, generals. It's for them it's being worded precisely the way it is. And be assured, they get the message exactly as it has been intended to be delivered.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:14 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
He doesn't know the history, I guess.


Stalin was running USSR for about 30 years. A lot happened during this time, and under his leadership the country achieved some tremendous successes. I am not saying there weren't any tragic deeds or history pages that can be forgiven or forgotten. However, he "took his country with a plow, and left it with an atomic bomb". Sure, leader of such scale must also have had quite notable personality traits - an average "gray" today's EU official doesn't have even 1/20th of his ability. So what part of the history you think I don't know or understand?


The part of 40 million Russian death, part of the Ukraine famine perhaps? Or the part where he had made a pact with Hitler? Or indeed the part that even the communist condemned him.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:17 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Sure, I can make a speech like a superpower, doesn't make me a leader of a superpower. Russia is a regional power, learn to come to grips with it.


Sure, you can make any speech you like. But when it comes to a world's leader - the story is different. First - his speech is being taken apart into quotes. Second - the real addressee of this speech/show is not you or general public, but other leaders, professionals, generals. It's for them it's being worded precisely the way it is. And be assured, they get the message exactly as it has been intended to be delivered.


yup, regional power, trying to masquerade as a superpower for local consumption.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:20 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

Have you been watching the analysis of his yesterday's speech? It certainly wasn't one of weak leaders; rather that of a leader of a superpower. Speaking of opposition - there are 7 candidates to choose from. Including some with very liberal and pro-Western beliefs.



Sure, I can make a speech like a superpower, doesn't make me a leader of a superpower. Russia is a regional power, learn to come to grips with it.

Russia can have all their candidates that it wants to have, still an autocracy. Still ranked a respectful 122 place.

Image


Dutchy, who cares about your democracy ratings? Do you really think this is something serious decisions in this world are being made based on? Sorry to disappoint you - they aren't. But - on what President Putin showed yesterday (missiles, aircraft) they are being made based on. They are also being made based on someone's willingness and ability to do impacting things. But certainly not on ratings.


I guess you care, bringing the 7 "candidates" to the table. A rating is not made for decisions, it is made to rank something and Russia is ranked 122.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:23 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
He doesn't know the history, I guess.


Stalin was running USSR for about 30 years. A lot happened during this time, and under his leadership the country achieved some tremendous successes. I am not saying there weren't any tragic deeds or history pages that can be forgiven or forgotten. However, he "took his country with a plow, and left it with an atomic bomb". Sure, leader of such scale must also have had quite notable personality traits - an average "gray" today's EU official doesn't have even 1/20th of his ability. So what part of the history you think I don't know or understand?


The part where he originally worked alongside Nazi Germany and massacred the Poles, or the fact that he's directly responsible for several millions of deaths, his indirect body count actually exceeding that of Hitler over his tenure, etc? Yeah, dying in the gulag is only 1/20th of the estimated death toll. I think there was a bit more to it than that.
Last edited by Jouhou on Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
salttee
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:24 am

anrec80 wrote:
"took his country with a plow, and left it with an atomic bomb".
He took his country from the age of the motorcar and left it with a few more cars that only the party bigwigs got to ride in. The bomb he got from the Germans, Klaus Fuchs, David Greenglass and others like like the Cambridge five in Britain.

anrec80 wrote:
Sure, leader of such scale must also have had quite notable personality traits
Yea, no ethics and extreme sadism with a heap of paranoia mixed in.
 
Freakysh
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:00 am

Jouhou wrote:
Excuse me, the US can rip off its own with expensive natural gas. I live in a part of the country with zero fossil fuels resources. We are trying to get ourselves energy independent so we don't have to keep importing from elsewhere in the country.



Well then, this IS an interesting post. Please, if I may, which part of the country is this?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:09 am

Freakysh wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Excuse me, the US can rip off its own with expensive natural gas. I live in a part of the country with zero fossil fuels resources. We are trying to get ourselves energy independent so we don't have to keep importing from elsewhere in the country.



Well then, this IS an interesting post. Please, if I may, which part of the country is this?


Everything northeast of Pennsylvania (I'm not really sure about upstate New york) has no fossil fuel resources of their own. We are extremely dependent on natural gas from elsewhere in the country, which means we can get charged A LOT extra during cold spells, because of supply and demand. The northeastern states are all moving towards using renewables for gaining energy independence and going "green" at the same time.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:02 pm

In Shocking Turn Of Events, Russia Now Owes Ukraine Billions

Ukraine finally gets a win against Russia.

State-owned gas company, Naftogaz, was awarded $2.5 billion in a lengthy, ugly legal battle with Russian gas behemoth Gazprom. The Stockholm Arbitral Tribunal ruled Wednesday on a years old dispute regarding natural gas transit fees in favor of the Ukrainians. Gazprom said they will appeal the ruling.

Russia's revenge began immediately on Thursday when Naftogaz learned of Gazprom's decision not to supply gas to Ukraine this month. Naftogaz said it had already paid for deliveries and would turn to Poland for emergency supplies.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/ ... eb562452a2

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russ ... SKCN1GE2DW

Interesting, so 2,5bn USD to be paid to Ukraine.

And so fair is Russia, lost a court case but still doesn't want to comply with it and instead cut Ukraine off. Let's see how our Russian friends are going to spin this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:
In Shocking Turn Of Events, Russia Now Owes Ukraine Billions

Ukraine finally gets a win against Russia.

State-owned gas company, Naftogaz, was awarded $2.5 billion in a lengthy, ugly legal battle with Russian gas behemoth Gazprom. The Stockholm Arbitral Tribunal ruled Wednesday on a years old dispute regarding natural gas transit fees in favor of the Ukrainians. Gazprom said they will appeal the ruling.

Russia's revenge began immediately on Thursday when Naftogaz learned of Gazprom's decision not to supply gas to Ukraine this month. Naftogaz said it had already paid for deliveries and would turn to Poland for emergency supplies.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/ ... eb562452a2

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russ ... SKCN1GE2DW

Interesting, so 2,5bn USD to be paid to Ukraine.

And so fair is Russia, lost a court case but still doesn't want to comply with it and instead cut Ukraine off. Let's see how our Russian friends are going to spin this.

Since Russian courts are corrupt and when decreed issue whatever judgement is needed so of course all courts must be.
I am sure they will claim they are just being attacked by their enemies controlling corrupt "western" courts.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 6010
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:40 pm

Tugger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
In Shocking Turn Of Events, Russia Now Owes Ukraine Billions

Ukraine finally gets a win against Russia.

State-owned gas company, Naftogaz, was awarded $2.5 billion in a lengthy, ugly legal battle with Russian gas behemoth Gazprom. The Stockholm Arbitral Tribunal ruled Wednesday on a years old dispute regarding natural gas transit fees in favor of the Ukrainians. Gazprom said they will appeal the ruling.

Russia's revenge began immediately on Thursday when Naftogaz learned of Gazprom's decision not to supply gas to Ukraine this month. Naftogaz said it had already paid for deliveries and would turn to Poland for emergency supplies.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/ ... eb562452a2

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russ ... SKCN1GE2DW

Interesting, so 2,5bn USD to be paid to Ukraine.

And so fair is Russia, lost a court case but still doesn't want to comply with it and instead cut Ukraine off. Let's see how our Russian friends are going to spin this.

Since Russian courts are corrupt and when decreed issue whatever judgement is needed so of course all courts must be.
I am sure they will claim they are just being attacked by their enemies controlling corrupt "western" courts.

Tugg


Perhaps Tugg, or they claim that it was not their jurisdiction like they got convicted for the Greenpeace incident. We'll see, I trust they won't let us down with some entertaining explanations.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
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