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anrec80
Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/ ... eb562452a2

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russ ... SKCN1GE2DW

Interesting, so 2,5bn USD to be paid to Ukraine.

And so fair is Russia, lost a court case but still doesn't want to comply with it and instead cut Ukraine off. Let's see how our Russian friends are going to spin this.


What to spin here? These are dealings around complex contracts between Russia and Ukraine written back in 2009. Those are full of technicalities and I don’t see any politics here really. A decision seems a bit odd and unexpected, but it’s a court decision nonetheless. The contracts did include minimal volumes for transfer through Ukraine and purchase by Ukraine. Neither Ukraine purchased the required volume, and Russia at times wasn’t sending the required minimum.

Ukraine, after track record of non-payments and siphoning off gas that was to be sold to Europe, was switched to pre-payment and every month they sign a new agreement with Gazprom. I can understand lack if desire from Gazprom’s side to deal with such customer, who, having signed a contract, starts running around all possible courts to make single-sided changes, and makes creative schemes such as “European gas via reverse supply”. These were common under so called “democratic” Ukrainian governments. Under Yanukovich, they have been able to get to the negotiation table and work solutions out. That’s what they both should have done.

Russia-Europe gas trade has over 50 years of history and every single time Russians were sending every last cubic feet of gas to European customers as agreed, and Europeans were paying right on time and every last penny. No matter what - Cold War, sanctions, etc. And I am sure during these times there were instances when some solutions needed to be worked out - a lot can happen during decades-long contracts. We should note however that during peak oil prices Russian pipeline gas was considerably cheaper than using oil, and Gazprom didn’t run around courts trying to squeeze more money out of Europeans.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:25 pm

Freakysh wrote:

Well then, this IS an interesting post. Please, if I may, which part of the country is this?


All developments with American gas are interesting lately. In order to sell shale LNG at high spot market prices, USA are ready to threaten, sanction, investigate, etc. I just can’t get rid of impression that they are turning into not only a gas pump country, but an aggressive gas pump ready for anything to pitch their stuff.
 
anrec80
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I guess you care, bringing the 7 "candidates" to the table. A rating is not made for decisions, it is made to rank something and Russia is ranked 122.


Ok, some dudes gathered, ranked countries based on some criteria, Russia came 122nd. So what now? What do I do with this information and why? And who else should do what else based on that?
 
Scorpius
Posts: 492
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:32 pm

I read all this and think. Why do people who do not know the history of Russia, do not know the basic rules of functioning of the world economy, do not know about the real state of Affairs in Russia - certainly consider it their duty to tell that Russia lives wrongly, and they know exactly how to live Russia? Guys, can you still go and do my own pigsty before to talk about the fate of the world?
Almost every statement about the terrible Russian makes me do a facepalm.
Seriously, at least read the history books.
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 370
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:13 am

Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:01 pm

Scorpius wrote:
I read all this and think. Why do people who do not know the history of Russia, do not know the basic rules of functioning of the world economy, do not know about the real state of Affairs in Russia - certainly consider it their duty to tell that Russia lives wrongly, and they know exactly how to live Russia? Guys, can you still go and do my own pigsty before to talk about the fate of the world?
Almost every statement about the terrible Russian makes me do a facepalm.
Seriously, at least read the history books.

I suppose most people don't mind being told how to live but when it comes from those who think that their country is somehow superior and above reproach, then it just gets silly. America - the land of double standards.
Edit: punctuation
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
salttee
Posts: 2428
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:07 pm

Scorpius wrote:
I read all this and think. Why do people who do not know the history of Russia, do not know the basic rules of functioning of the world economy, do not know about the real state of Affairs in Russia - certainly consider it their duty to tell that Russia lives wrongly, and they know exactly how to live Russia? Guys, can you still go and do my own pigsty before to talk about the fate of the world?
Almost every statement about the terrible Russian makes me do a facepalm.
Seriously, at least read the history books.
Exactly what is it in posts 245, 246 and 249 that you disagree with?
 
MSPbrandon
Posts: 144
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:26 pm

captainmeeerkat wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
I read all this and think. Why do people who do not know the history of Russia, do not know the basic rules of functioning of the world economy, do not know about the real state of Affairs in Russia - certainly consider it their duty to tell that Russia lives wrongly, and they know exactly how to live Russia? Guys, can you still go and do my own pigsty before to talk about the fate of the world?
Almost every statement about the terrible Russian makes me do a facepalm.
Seriously, at least read the history books.

I suppose most people don't mind being told how to live but when it comes from those who think that their country is somehow superior and above reproach, then it just gets silly. America - the land of double standards.
Edit: punctuation


I or most others here certainly don't think America is superior, but I will say in many ways we are much better than Russia. We are arguing the flaws in Russian society and government over the last 100 or so years. When all they respond with is Kremlin talking points, Soviet propaganda, whataboutism, and glorifying nuclear war, I think we are winning the argument. Speaking for myself, I have no double standards.
 
captainmeeerkat
Posts: 370
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:31 pm

Every society and every government has its flaws. Time and time again we read on this forum that everything in Russia is bad and backwards. And those people seem to ignore that their own countries have many problems too. That is the double standard to which I am referring.
my luggage is better travelled than me!
 
Scorpius
Posts: 492
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:38 pm

salttee wrote:
Seriously, at least read the history books.
Exactly what is it in posts 245, 246 and 249 that you disagree with?[/quote]

Well, for starters, all those Western stories about bad Stalin. You don't know anything, and you're spreading some delusional fiction. There are quite simple facts: from the moment of Stalin's coming to power to the moment of his death, the Soviet Union has gone from a country devastated by a civil war torn apart by internal contradictions of an agrarian country to a superpower with a developed industry and science. At the same time, we must understand that what is called "Stalin's repressions" was primarily an internal political struggle. For example, until 1937, the people's Commissariat of Internal Affairs (AKA NKVD) actually did not obey the Secretariat of the Central Committee of the CPSU(b), which, in turn, nominally carried out the Supreme government of the country. The heads and officials of the NKVD, respectively, used this situation, often abusing their powers - they still nobody could be held accountable.
The third centre of power was the generals of the red army, which, in turn, tried to play politics for control of the country. Add to this the split in the Communist party itself, Trotsky with his insane idea of a world revolution for which the country should be sacrificed - and you may remotely realize that in the Soviet Union of that time to act in some other way-was tantamount to handwritten signing of the death penalty to the country. Therefore, in General, Stalin's repressions, for example, in 1937-1938, consisted in eliminating political opponents who had previously participated (and often were the initiators) in earlier repressions. The same Nikita Khrushchev safely reported on overfulfilling the plan to repress the anti-Soviet element when he held the post of first Secretary of the Kyiv regional Committee.
There are many reasons to love Stalin or hate him. However, not to admit that he was and remains one of the greatest politicians of Our time - means either to be a fool or a liar.
And for everyone who thinks Stalin is a bloody tyrant, a paranoid or a bad ruler, I want to ask one simple question: what would you do in that situation?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:53 pm

Stalin was one of the best mass murderers with 40million Russian death. Don't get it that you think he is great, even within the USSR-timeframe he was put in the right context. Sorry, call me a lair - which you have already - but I don't consider anyone whom killed this amount a great politician.

The same thing can be said for Hitler, great politician: look what he did with the autobahn.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:56 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Freakysh wrote:

Well then, this IS an interesting post. Please, if I may, which part of the country is this?


All developments with American gas are interesting lately. In order to sell shale LNG at high spot market prices, USA are ready to threaten, sanction, investigate, etc. I just can’t get rid of impression that they are turning into not only a gas pump country, but an aggressive gas pump ready for anything to pitch their stuff.


You know, the US has a single lng terminal that is mostly used for exporting to china. I don't get it. We don't even sell to europe.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:57 pm

captainmeeerkat wrote:
Every society and every government has its flaws. Time and time again we read on this forum that everything in Russia is bad and backwards. And those people seem to ignore that their own countries have many problems too. That is the double standard to which I am referring.


That is whataboutism and yes every country has its flaws, no problem to call them out for the Netherlands, never seen it from Russians here. Everything is just great about their dear leader and their country. Even some members hailing their military and how it is going to conquer the world.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:03 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I guess you care, bringing the 7 "candidates" to the table. A rating is not made for decisions, it is made to rank something and Russia is ranked 122.


Ok, some dudes gathered, ranked countries based on some criteria, Russia came 122nd. So what now? What do I do with this information and why? And who else should do what else based on that?


Not some dudes, just with scientific methods to rank countries by democracy standards. You don't have to do anything with it, just realize you live in an autocracy with limited personal freedoms. We can conclude that those seven candidates will never succeed in an autocracy. So that backs the question why you brought them to the table?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:06 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/ ... eb562452a2

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russ ... SKCN1GE2DW

Interesting, so 2,5bn USD to be paid to Ukraine.

And so fair is Russia, lost a court case but still doesn't want to comply with it and instead cut Ukraine off. Let's see how our Russian friends are going to spin this.


What to spin here? These are dealings around complex contracts between Russia and Ukraine written back in 2009. Those are full of technicalities and I don’t see any politics here really. A decision seems a bit odd and unexpected, but it’s a court decision nonetheless. The contracts did include minimal volumes for transfer through Ukraine and purchase by Ukraine. Neither Ukraine purchased the required volume, and Russia at times wasn’t sending the required minimum.

Ukraine, after track record of non-payments and siphoning off gas that was to be sold to Europe, was switched to pre-payment and every month they sign a new agreement with Gazprom. I can understand lack if desire from Gazprom’s side to deal with such customer, who, having signed a contract, starts running around all possible courts to make single-sided changes, and makes creative schemes such as “European gas via reverse supply”. These were common under so called “democratic” Ukrainian governments. Under Yanukovich, they have been able to get to the negotiation table and work solutions out. That’s what they both should have done.

Russia-Europe gas trade has over 50 years of history and every single time Russians were sending every last cubic feet of gas to European customers as agreed, and Europeans were paying right on time and every last penny. No matter what - Cold War, sanctions, etc. And I am sure during these times there were instances when some solutions needed to be worked out - a lot can happen during decades-long contracts. We should note however that during peak oil prices Russian pipeline gas was considerably cheaper than using oil, and Gazprom didn’t run around courts trying to squeeze more money out of Europeans.


And yet you are trying to spin it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:28 am

Scorpius wrote:
I read all this and think. Why do people who do not know the history of Russia, do not know the basic rules of functioning of the world economy, do not know about the real state of Affairs in Russia - certainly consider it their duty to tell that Russia lives wrongly, and they know exactly how to live Russia? Guys, can you still go and do my own pigsty before to talk about the fate of the world?
Almost every statement about the terrible Russian makes me do a facepalm.
Seriously, at least read the history books.


If you accept the real place of the Russian Federation in the world, we would be a step closer to each other.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
Posts: 2428
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:41 am

Scorpius wrote:
from the moment of Stalin's coming to power to the moment of his death, the Soviet Union has gone from a country devastated by a civil war torn apart by internal contradictions of an agrarian country to a superpower with a developed industry and science.
He oversaw the continuation of Russia as "the poor man of Europe". Through the later stages of the industrial revolution during his tenure, Russia blatantly copied western technology to keep up. Russia has the largest land mass of any country on earth, with more natural resources than anybody else, yet has an economic footprint smaller than Italy. There's nothing to brag about of Russia's economic or technological performance. Without their nukes, which is more stolen western technology, Russia would rank about equally with 19th century Africa: a vast mostly unexplored wilderness.

Scorpius wrote:
"Stalin's repressions" was primarily an internal political struggle.
Yea, I picked up on that from reading Solzhenitsyn.

Scorpius wrote:
I want to ask one simple question: what would you do in that situation?
Two things come to mind immediately: I wouldn't have poisoned Lenin and I wouldn't have cut that deal with Hitler about carving up Poland.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:01 am

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-funds/russias-finance-ministry-fully-spent-its-reserve-fund-in-2017-idUSKBN1EZ13R

Possible reason for stepped up rhetoric and aggression?

They're running out of money, why are they spending the people's pension fund on nukes?
 
anrec80
Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:50 am

Jouhou wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-funds/russias-finance-ministry-fully-spent-its-reserve-fund-in-2017-idUSKBN1EZ13R

Possible reason for stepped up rhetoric and aggression?

They're running out of money, why are they spending the people's pension fund on nukes?


Not this thing at least. The “reserve fund” was just a part of their total reserves, and they were simply merging it with other parts. It’s just bookkeeping of their management. They still have about USD 450 billion in reserves all in.
 
seb146
Posts: 16934
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:55 am

China and Russia have a complete and total powerful leader, so why not United States?

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-ch ... ?r=UK&IR=T

If this does not scare the righties, not much will! But, since it is not covered in MSM, righties will not see this.....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:52 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-funds/russias-finance-ministry-fully-spent-its-reserve-fund-in-2017-idUSKBN1EZ13R

Possible reason for stepped up rhetoric and aggression?

They're running out of money, why are they spending the people's pension fund on nukes?


Not this thing at least. The “reserve fund” was just a part of their total reserves, and they were simply merging it with other parts. It’s just bookkeeping of their management. They still have about USD 450 billion in reserves all in.


To my recollection the Russian government can keep a perfectly balanced budget but secretive military projects operate outside of the budget the Duma approves. Russia would gain money again if oil prices spike, but increases in fuel costs accelerates the transition to renewables and gains in efficiency in fossil fuel powered things.

It seems like Russia wants to blame sanctions (and then say sanctions don't hurt them) to give the Russian people a scapegoat when the reality is the budget was dependent on an undiversified fossil fuel economy.
 
Scorpius
Posts: 492
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:45 am

salttee wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
from the moment of Stalin's coming to power to the moment of his death, the Soviet Union has gone from a country devastated by a civil war torn apart by internal contradictions of an agrarian country to a superpower with a developed industry and science.
He oversaw the continuation of Russia as "the poor man of Europe". Through the later stages of the industrial revolution during his tenure, Russia blatantly copied western technology to keep up. Russia has the largest land mass of any country on earth, with more natural resources than anybody else, yet has an economic footprint smaller than Italy. There's nothing to brag about of Russia's economic or technological performance. Without their nukes, which is more stolen western technology, Russia would rank about equally with 19th century Africa: a vast mostly unexplored wilderness.

Scorpius wrote:
"Stalin's repressions" was primarily an internal political struggle.
Yea, I picked up on that from reading Solzhenitsyn.

Scorpius wrote:
I want to ask one simple question: what would you do in that situation?
Two things come to mind immediately: I wouldn't have poisoned Lenin and I wouldn't have cut that deal with Hitler about carving up Poland.


Your claims are ridiculous. If you don't know - on the creation of nuclear weapons everywhere in the world, active work began back in the thirties. And the USSR anyway all the same would receive an atomic bomb - can be for a year or two later. But these a year or two, winning time saved us from the atomic bombing of our territory by NATO forces. Are you so sorry that the nuclear war didn't start?

Solzhenitsyn, as if it mildly - full of shit. He can describe in detail the life of prisoners in the camps, but once we were talking about the number of prisoners - he began to lie to the trite hype to make money.

And finally, about Lenin and Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Here you have never wondered about the fate of the citizens of the USSR - which suggests that you simply do not care about them. Lenin actually died of cerebrovascular atherosclerosis, which was confirmed by the autopsy. No one hounded like Stalin, by the way.
As far as Poland was the enemy of the Soviet Union, which in less than a year before the events encouraged Germany to attack the USSR together. In addition, the seizure of these territories pushed the zone of contact with Germany for hundreds of kilometers. During the promotion for these hundreds of miles, the Germans then suffered significant losses in manpower and technology, and also spent a lot of resources. You have made the decision not to seize part of Poland? Congratulations - you just killed its decision for another two or three million Soviet soldiers. You're even worse than Stalin.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:55 am

Scorpius wrote:
Your claims are ridiculous. If you don't know - on the creation of nuclear weapons everywhere in the world, active work began back in the thirties. And the USSR anyway all the same would receive an atomic bomb - can be for a year or two later. But these a year or two, winning time saved us from the atomic bombing of our territory by NATO forces. Are you so sorry that the nuclear war didn't start?

Solzhenitsyn, as if it mildly - full of shit. He can describe in detail the life of prisoners in the camps, but once we were talking about the number of prisoners - he began to lie to the trite hype to make money.

And finally, about Lenin and Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Here you have never wondered about the fate of the citizens of the USSR - which suggests that you simply do not care about them. Lenin actually died of cerebrovascular atherosclerosis, which was confirmed by the autopsy. No one hounded like Stalin, by the way.
As far as Poland was the enemy of the Soviet Union, which in less than a year before the events encouraged Germany to attack the USSR together. In addition, the seizure of these territories pushed the zone of contact with Germany for hundreds of kilometers. During the promotion for these hundreds of miles, the Germans then suffered significant losses in manpower and technology, and also spent a lot of resources. You have made the decision not to seize part of Poland? Congratulations - you just killed its decision for another two or three million Soviet soldiers. You're even worse than Stalin.


phhhh, do you have any evidence that NATO would have started a nuclear war in the '50ish, or is that your paranoia speaking again?

Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was an attempt to stay out of WWII and gaining territory by annexation. It gave the NAZI's room to conquer western Europe. I guess you do not care about citizens of western Europe.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
Posts: 492
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:08 am

Jouhou wrote:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-funds/russias-finance-ministry-fully-spent-its-reserve-fund-in-2017-idUSKBN1EZ13R

Possible reason for stepped up rhetoric and aggression?

They're running out of money, why are they spending the people's pension fund on nukes?

LOL, The reserve Fund of the Russian Federation was formed on February 1, 2008 after the Stabilization Fund was divided into the Reserve Fund and the national welfare Fund of Russia (NWF). Since January 1, 2018, the Reserve Fund has been liquidated and attached to the national welfare Fund.
Only the internal accounting - money first laid out of one pocket into two and then put back.
In total, the volume of international reserves decreased from $510 billion to $350 billion in 2015 from 1.01.2014, and has been growing since then. Today it is already $450 billion.
At the same time, Russia's total foreign debt is no more than $530 billion.

Compare with the US?
International reserves do not exceed $118 billion as of may 2017.
US foreign debt is $ 20.6 trillion.

So who's in trouble with the economy?
 
Scorpius
Posts: 492
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:15 am

Dutchy wrote:
[
phhhh, do you have any evidence that NATO would have started a nuclear war in the '50ish, or is that your paranoia speaking again?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dropshot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Totality
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable


Dutchy wrote:
[
Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was an attempt to stay out of WWII and gaining territory by annexation. It gave the NAZI's room to conquer western Europe. I guess you do not care about citizens of western Europe.

Oh, Yes. No doubt Poland would have fought off the Wehrmacht had it not been for those damn Communists. LOL.

Dutch, sometimes you should just keep quiet so you don't look stupid.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:37 am

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
[
phhhh, do you have any evidence that NATO would have started a nuclear war in the '50ish, or is that your paranoia speaking again?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dropshot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Totality
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable


Why do I even waste my time to this? Do you even read the links you provide? Do you translate them to Russia? Anyhow:
Operation Dropshot --> a contingency plan for a possible nuclear and conventional war with the Soviet Union and its allies in order to counter the anticipated Soviet takeover of Western Europe --> defensive plan, not offensive
Plan Totality --> Plan Totality was part of Truman's 'giant atomic bluff' aimed primarily (and unsuccessfully) at the Soviet Union --> bluff that didn't work
Operation Unthinkable --> 1945, not the 50-ish. The people in western democracies were fat up with war. And in a democracy the people's will matters.

So all groundless.

Dutchy wrote:
[
Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was an attempt to stay out of WWII and gaining territory by annexation. It gave the NAZI's room to conquer western Europe. I guess you do not care about citizens of western Europe.

Oh, Yes. No doubt Poland would have fought off the Wehrmacht had it not been for those damn Communists. LOL.

Dutch, sometimes you should just keep quiet so you don't look stupid.[/quote]

And there you go again, your favorite tool in your kit if you are cornered: ad hominem. That's why don't ever apologize here again, that Russian tradition doesn't fit you if you continue to behave in the same matter, it is pointless.

Not the point if Poland could have fought off the NAZI's, you decided to take half of Poland plus not fight the NAZI's and thus have the NAZI's an easy win and they could concentrate on one front war, because your country got the NAZI's back. So you helped the NAZI's to conquer western Europe by being partners with them. First offensive and then afterward, you were betrayed by them and joint the fight in a defensive mode.
Own up to your own history, not only the glory bits but also the ugly bits. And the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact certainly falls in the later.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:28 am

Dutchy wrote:
Why do I even waste my time to this? Do you even read the links you provide? Do you translate them to Russia? Anyhow:
Operation Dropshot --> a contingency plan for a possible nuclear and conventional war with the Soviet Union and its allies in order to counter the anticipated Soviet takeover of Western Europe --> defensive plan, not offensive
Plan Totality --> Plan Totality was part of Truman's 'giant atomic bluff' aimed primarily (and unsuccessfully) at the Soviet Union --> bluff that didn't work
Operation Unthinkable --> 1945, not the 50-ish. The people in western democracies were fat up with war. And in a democracy the people's will matters.

So all groundless.

These plans existed. Point. Did you say anything about paranoia? I cited the facts of the actual plans providing for the atomic bombing of the USSR. From the USSR, in turn, such plans in relation to NATO countries appeared only in 1979, 2 years after the declassification plans of operation Dropshot.

Dutchy wrote:
And there you go again, your favorite tool in your kit if you are cornered: ad hominem. That's why don't ever apologize here again, that Russian tradition doesn't fit you if you continue to behave in the same matter, it is pointless.

You've never apologized for your boorish behavior in all your time. That's all we need to know about the Dutch.

Dutchy wrote:
Not the point if Poland could have fought off the NAZI's, you decided to take half of Poland plus not fight the NAZI's and thus have the NAZI's an easy win and they could concentrate on one front war, because your country got the NAZI's back. So you helped the NAZI's to conquer western Europe by being partners with them. First offensive and then afterward, you were betrayed by them and joint the fight in a defensive mode.
Own up to your own history, not only the glory bits but also the ugly bits. And the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact certainly falls in the later.

Let's count:
1. 1933. The Pact of four (Italy, Germany, England, France). Aimed at isolating the Soviet Union.
2. 1934 year. The Pact Of Pilsudski-Hitler (Germany, Poland). the non-aggression Pact and a joint entry into the war with the enemies.
3. 1935. Anglo-German naval agreement. elimination of all restrictions imposed on Germany by the Treaty of Versailles. the Germans were given the opportunity to build 5 battleships, two aircraft carriers, 21 cruiser and 64 destroyers.
4. 1936 year. The Anti-Comintern Pact (Germany, Japan).
5. 1938. The Munich agreement (Britain, France, Germany, Italy). Agreement on the illegal partition of Czechoslovakia. At the same time, Poland's threatening the USSR with war if the USSR tried to send troops to aid Czechoslovakia.
6. 1938. Declaration of non-aggression between England and Germany. At this time, the USSR repeatedly points to the need to deter Germany and the creation of an anti-German coalition.
1938. Hitler declared "man of the year" according to Time
Image
7. 1938. Declaration of non-aggression between France and Germany.
8. 1939 year. German-Romanian economic treaties and agreements.
9. 1939 year. The non-aggression Pact of Germany on the Baltic States. The Baltic States were supposed to serve as an obstacle against the Soviet intervention in the planned invasion of Poland. Germany proposed to conclude a non-aggression treaties with Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden on 28 April 1939. Sweden, Norway and Finland declined.
10.1939 year (23.08.1939). The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (Germany, USSR).

I may mention here that the financing of the Nazi party in large part was turned from US, and how much money the US has invested in the military industry in Germany, contributing to the military build-up by the Nazis. May recall that after the second world war, the US continued to trade with Germany and many German factories belonged to American companies (like, for example, a factory Opel was owned by GM).

But why do you not mention here the fact that the USSR was the last to conclude an agreement with Germany, when all of Europe has already cooperated with the Nazis since their appearance?
Are you lying on purpose, or do you just not know the story?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:32 am

You know, Russians, the Dutch are your most important European trading partner. Why are you so intent on burning that bridge?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:44 am

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Why do I even waste my time to this? Do you even read the links you provide? Do you translate them to Russia? Anyhow:
Operation Dropshot --> a contingency plan for a possible nuclear and conventional war with the Soviet Union and its allies in order to counter the anticipated Soviet takeover of Western Europe --> defensive plan, not offensive
Plan Totality --> Plan Totality was part of Truman's 'giant atomic bluff' aimed primarily (and unsuccessfully) at the Soviet Union --> bluff that didn't work
Operation Unthinkable --> 1945, not the 50-ish. The people in western democracies were fat up with war. And in a democracy the people's will matters.

So all groundless.

These plans existed. Point. Did you say anything about paranoia? I cited the facts of the actual plans providing for the atomic bombing of the USSR. From the USSR, in turn, such plans in relation to NATO countries appeared only in 1979, 2 years after the declassification plans of operation Dropshot.

Dutchy wrote:
And there you go again, your favorite tool in your kit if you are cornered: ad hominem. That's why don't ever apologize here again, that Russian tradition doesn't fit you if you continue to behave in the same matter, it is pointless.

You've never apologized for your boorish behavior in all your time. That's all we need to know about the Dutch.

Dutchy wrote:
Not the point if Poland could have fought off the NAZI's, you decided to take half of Poland plus not fight the NAZI's and thus have the NAZI's an easy win and they could concentrate on one front war, because your country got the NAZI's back. So you helped the NAZI's to conquer western Europe by being partners with them. First offensive and then afterward, you were betrayed by them and joint the fight in a defensive mode.
Own up to your own history, not only the glory bits but also the ugly bits. And the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact certainly falls in the later.

Let's count:
1. 1933. The Pact of four (Italy, Germany, England, France). Aimed at isolating the Soviet Union.
2. 1934 year. The Pact Of Pilsudski-Hitler (Germany, Poland). the non-aggression Pact and a joint entry into the war with the enemies.
3. 1935. Anglo-German naval agreement. elimination of all restrictions imposed on Germany by the Treaty of Versailles. the Germans were given the opportunity to build 5 battleships, two aircraft carriers, 21 cruiser and 64 destroyers.
4. 1936 year. The Anti-Comintern Pact (Germany, Japan).
5. 1938. The Munich agreement (Britain, France, Germany, Italy). Agreement on the illegal partition of Czechoslovakia. At the same time, Poland's threatening the USSR with war if the USSR tried to send troops to aid Czechoslovakia.
6. 1938. Declaration of non-aggression between England and Germany. At this time, the USSR repeatedly points to the need to deter Germany and the creation of an anti-German coalition.
1938. Hitler declared "man of the year" according to Time
7. 1938. Declaration of non-aggression between France and Germany.
8. 1939 year. German-Romanian economic treaties and agreements.
9. 1939 year. The non-aggression Pact of Germany on the Baltic States. The Baltic States were supposed to serve as an obstacle against the Soviet intervention in the planned invasion of Poland. Germany proposed to conclude a non-aggression treaties with Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden on 28 April 1939. Sweden, Norway and Finland declined.
10.1939 year (23.08.1939). The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (Germany, USSR).

I may mention here that the financing of the Nazi party in large part was turned from US, and how much money the US has invested in the military industry in Germany, contributing to the military build-up by the Nazis. May recall that after the second world war, the US continued to trade with Germany and many German factories belonged to American companies (like, for example, a factory Opel was owned by GM).

But why do you not mention here the fact that the USSR was the last to conclude an agreement with Germany, when all of Europe has already cooperated with the Nazis since their appearance?
Are you lying on purpose, or do you just not know the story?


*Sight*

First I don't take your behavior here as the common norm for all Russians, I repeatedly said I only speak for myself. If you want to insult me, like you have done numerous of times, fine, do that if that's the way you want to debate, but don't insult my fellow countrymen because you feel underappreciated by these facts presented here, that is your problem.

The difference with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact divided up another country between the partners, but I guess you don't mind that since you have shown here a total disrespect for international borders anyway.

And really man of the year? That is your argument? Jozef Stalin was man of the year in 1939, Nikita Chroesjtsjov (1957), Ayatollah Khomeini (1979), Michail Gorbatsjov (1987/1989), Vladimir Poetin (2007). So what are you actually saying here?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:30 pm

Jouhou wrote:
You know, Russians, the Dutch are your most important European trading partner. Why are you so intent on burning that bridge?


Dutchy. I'm talking about a specific user named Dutchy.
 
Scorpius
Posts: 492
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:

The difference with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact divided up another country between the partners, but I guess you don't mind that since you have shown here a total disrespect for international borders anyway.


What was with respect to international borders at the time of the division of Czechoslovakia in 1938? What is there respect for international borders now? As there, the United States with respect to the borders, invade other countries around the world?

The Netherlands, as far as I remember, two divisions of SS troops formed of volunteers: 23. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division " Nederland“ and 34. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division „Landstorm Nederland”. These divisions of the Netherlands formed too with respect to the international borders?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:37 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
You know, Russians, the Dutch are your most important European trading partner. Why are you so intent on burning that bridge?


Dutchy. I'm talking about a specific user named Dutchy.


I know, but between the mh17 denial and ranting about how he has history "wrong" isn't good for relations in general. We already suspect you guys are not "regular" Russians because you do not share the same knowledge or attitudes of actual average Russians. So we are viewing your responses as being the official stance of the Russian government itself, and at this point it's not making you look good or friendly.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:46 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

The difference with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact divided up another country between the partners, but I guess you don't mind that since you have shown here a total disrespect for international borders anyway.


What was with respect to international borders at the time of the division of Czechoslovakia in 1938? What is there respect for international borders now? As there, the United States with respect to the borders, invade other countries around the world?

The Netherlands, as far as I remember, two divisions of SS troops formed of volunteers: 23. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division " Nederland“ and 34. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division „Landstorm Nederland”. These divisions of the Netherlands formed too with respect to the international borders?


Whataboutism again, another of your favorite defense mechanism. Like I said, Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact divided up another country between the partners, Poland was divided up between your country and NAZI Germany, no other way to frame this. Own up to your own history, my Russian friend and dare to say something bad about your country.

As for the Dutch SS troops, indeed shame on my fellow countrymen whom volunteered for this. But those were NAZI troops, so what is your point of bringing up these people?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:52 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
You know, Russians, the Dutch are your most important European trading partner. Why are you so intent on burning that bridge?


Dutchy. I'm talking about a specific user named Dutchy.


I know, but between the mh17 denial and ranting about how he has history "wrong" isn't good for relations in general. We already suspect you guys are not "regular" Russians because you do not share the same knowledge or attitudes of actual average Russians. So we are viewing your responses as being the official stance of the Russian government itself, and at this point it's not making you look good or friendly.


Oh yes, indeed, but a number of other incidents between the Netherlands and Russia also didn't add to a positive contention about Russia. But indeed the MH17 tragedy is for most Dutch personal because most know someone who was murdered, directly or indirectly.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:07 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

Dutchy. I'm talking about a specific user named Dutchy.


I know, but between the mh17 denial and ranting about how he has history "wrong" isn't good for relations in general. We already suspect you guys are not "regular" Russians because you do not share the same knowledge or attitudes of actual average Russians. So we are viewing your responses as being the official stance of the Russian government itself, and at this point it's not making you look good or friendly.


Oh yes, indeed, but a number of other incidents between the Netherlands and Russia also didn't add to a positive contention about Russia. But indeed the MH17 tragedy is for most Dutch personal because most know someone who was murdered, directly or indirectly.


I've been a little confused at the official Russian stance on this for a long time. I've chalked it up to some weird cultural thing like how the Japanese won't admit to or apologize for the Rape of Nanking to China or the "comfort women" of Korea. However they should have been able to calculate that it's in their best interest to own up to mh17 and just apologize. It was obviously not their intention to specifically cause the death of so many innocent Dutch, but their refusal to acknowledge the incident is really rubbing salt in the wound as if they meant to do it.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:17 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

I know, but between the mh17 denial and ranting about how he has history "wrong" isn't good for relations in general. We already suspect you guys are not "regular" Russians because you do not share the same knowledge or attitudes of actual average Russians. So we are viewing your responses as being the official stance of the Russian government itself, and at this point it's not making you look good or friendly.


Oh yes, indeed, but a number of other incidents between the Netherlands and Russia also didn't add to a positive contention about Russia. But indeed the MH17 tragedy is for most Dutch personal because most know someone who was murdered, directly or indirectly.


I've been a little confused at the official Russian stance on this for a long time. I've chalked it up to some weird cultural thing like how the Japanese won't admit to or apologize for the Rape of Nanking to China or the "comfort women" of Korea. However they should have been able to calculate that it's in their best interest to own up to mh17 and just apologize. It was obviously not their intention to specifically cause the death of so many innocent Dutch, but their refusal to acknowledge the incident is really rubbing salt in the wound as if they meant to do it.


As I take it, if they admit to what has happened, they openly admit that they either supplied heavy weapons to the East Ukraine fighters or regular Russian army soldiers are involved and thus invaded Ukraine (like they have done with the annexation of Crimea anyway). Putin isn't there yet, he can't admit to this, or he has to admit to all the Russian soldiers whom have died there as well. Besides that, the Russian government has to admit it lied to the world and lied to it's people. Not good for internal consumption I guess. So I guess it is not a cultural thing, but an internal propaganda thing. But that is my guess at the moment.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
Posts: 492
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:28 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
You know, Russians, the Dutch are your most important European trading partner. Why are you so intent on burning that bridge?


Dutchy. I'm talking about a specific user named Dutchy.


I know, but between the mh17 denial and ranting about how he has history "wrong" isn't good for relations in general. We already suspect you guys are not "regular" Russians because you do not share the same knowledge or attitudes of actual average Russians. So we are viewing your responses as being the official stance of the Russian government itself, and at this point it's not making you look good or friendly.

In fact, I'm just the same "average Russian". You came up with yourself certain position that is comfortable for you, and you're giving her some average Russians. At the same time, all opinions that do not correspond to it, you declare Pro-Kremlin or paid. A comfortable position - do not say anything.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Oh yes, indeed, but a number of other incidents between the Netherlands and Russia also didn't add to a positive contention about Russia. But indeed the MH17 tragedy is for most Dutch personal because most know someone who was murdered, directly or indirectly.


I've been a little confused at the official Russian stance on this for a long time. I've chalked it up to some weird cultural thing like how the Japanese won't admit to or apologize for the Rape of Nanking to China or the "comfort women" of Korea. However they should have been able to calculate that it's in their best interest to own up to mh17 and just apologize. It was obviously not their intention to specifically cause the death of so many innocent Dutch, but their refusal to acknowledge the incident is really rubbing salt in the wound as if they meant to do it.


As I take it, if they admit to what has happened, they openly admit that they either supplied heavy weapons to the East Ukraine fighters or regular Russian army soldiers are involved and thus invaded Ukraine (like they have done with the annexation of Crimea anyway). Putin isn't there yet, he can't admit to this, or he has to admit to all the Russian soldiers whom have died there as well. Besides that, the Russian government has to admit it lied to the world and lied to it's people. Not good for internal consumption I guess. So I guess it is not a cultural thing, but an internal propaganda thing. But that is my guess at the moment.


But the world knows their narrative is a lie because we have eyes and ears. Russians know it's a lie because there was active recruitment of "volunteers". So I don't know who they think they are fooling.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:31 pm

Jouhou wrote:

I've been a little confused at the official Russian stance on this for a long time. I've chalked it up to some weird cultural thing like how the Japanese won't admit to or apologize for the Rape of Nanking to China or the "comfort women" of Korea. However they should have been able to calculate that it's in their best interest to own up to mh17 and just apologize. It was obviously not their intention to specifically cause the death of so many innocent Dutch, but their refusal to acknowledge the incident is really rubbing salt in the wound as if they meant to do it.


It's simple - Russia has nothing to do with the downing of MH17. This was done by the Ukrainian military at the direction of Washington.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:35 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

Dutchy. I'm talking about a specific user named Dutchy.


I know, but between the mh17 denial and ranting about how he has history "wrong" isn't good for relations in general. We already suspect you guys are not "regular" Russians because you do not share the same knowledge or attitudes of actual average Russians. So we are viewing your responses as being the official stance of the Russian government itself, and at this point it's not making you look good or friendly.

In fact, I'm just the same "average Russian". You came up with yourself certain position that is comfortable for you, and you're giving her some average Russians. At the same time, all opinions that do not correspond to it, you declare Pro-Kremlin or paid. A comfortable position - do not say anything.


Meanwhile Russians are elsewhere on the internet saying "please don't blame the citizens of Russia for the actions of our government, we're sorry they're doing that"
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
As I take it, if they admit to what has happened, they openly admit that they either supplied heavy weapons to the East Ukraine fighters or regular Russian army soldiers are involved and thus invaded Ukraine (like they have done with the annexation of Crimea anyway). Putin isn't there yet, he can't admit to this, or he has to admit to all the Russian soldiers whom have died there as well. Besides that, the Russian government has to admit it lied to the world and lied to it's people. Not good for internal consumption I guess. So I guess it is not a cultural thing, but an internal propaganda thing. But that is my guess at the moment.

It's funny to read, especially when you consider that Putin has suffered a certain loss of reputation, not introducing troops to Ukraine to stop the bloodshed in the Donbass. Just the internal needs of the population for the invasion was many in the Donbas and in other parts of Ukraine are the relatives and the decision not to send troops was seen as if Russians living in Ukraine, abandoned to their fate and those of the Nazis, who came to power in Ukraine.
In return, Putin received a large flow of volunteers from Russia to Donbass, and already here he had to somehow organize assistance to the Donetsk and Lugansk militia, so as not to lose face. If he did not help the LNR and DNR - this would lead to a sharp increase in discontent among the population of Russia, and many would be perceived as a direct betrayal of national interests.
I find it even funnier to read from Europe and the US Putin's accusations of an act that he did not just do - for which he received a lot of criticism from Russian citizens.
Once again you demonstrate a complete ignorance of the real political situation in Russia.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:41 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Meanwhile Russians are elsewhere on the internet saying "please don't blame the citizens of Russia for the actions of our government, we're sorry they're doing that"


I already understood that from different opinions you choose the most convenient for yourself.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:44 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

I've been a little confused at the official Russian stance on this for a long time. I've chalked it up to some weird cultural thing like how the Japanese won't admit to or apologize for the Rape of Nanking to China or the "comfort women" of Korea. However they should have been able to calculate that it's in their best interest to own up to mh17 and just apologize. It was obviously not their intention to specifically cause the death of so many innocent Dutch, but their refusal to acknowledge the incident is really rubbing salt in the wound as if they meant to do it.


It's simple - Russia has nothing to do with the downing of MH17. This was done by the Ukrainian military at the direction of Washington.


Believing that nonsense and spreading the word like that is the reason I do not take you seriously. You will accept nothing but praise to Russia, that is not a serious discussion, but someone whom is possessed by a religion, and being an extremist at that. So no I do not respect any of your views and no I won't hold it against other Russians. You have no problem to accuse someone of murder but can't accept that your own government could shoot an airliner down by mistake.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:48 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Meanwhile Russians are elsewhere on the internet saying "please don't blame the citizens of Russia for the actions of our government, we're sorry they're doing that"


I already understood that from different opinions you choose the most convenient for yourself.


So you want me to hate regular Russian citizens for what their government says and does? It doesn't matter if you aren't an olgino troll/fsb/gru, that's a shitty thing to do to your countrymen. For the nations you do harm to the damage is clear, and it's Russian style to make it clear who did it. There's a reason why "polonium tea" is a thing. They use methods that only a foreign government would have access to.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
You have no problem to accuse someone of murder but can't accept that your own government could shoot an airliner down by mistake.


If this happened by mistake, then what sanctions, and what apologies?
The US did not apologize when it shot down the Iranian A300.
And here is the comment of the President of Ukraine: "Look, what is happening around in the world, in Europe? We are not the first and not the last, we should not make a tragedy out of this.
Mistakes happen everywhere, and not only of such scale, but much bigger, planetary scale. If we do not lower ourselves below the civilized level, everything will be fine. But if we are on a bucket of dirt spill, so you are welcome". In response to the Downing of a passenger plane. In Europe, it is all somehow staged.
Again, recall that when it officially apologized to the Europeans for the murder of our children over the Bodensee?
Maybe Switzerland or Germany were then applied international sanctions?
No? Oh, well, wow, what a surprise!
I have said and will continue to say that Russia has nothing to do with the event of MH 17, and the whole situation around this tragedy was originally intended for political pressure on Russia. Not to mention the PR-company to create the image of "bad Russian", which began even before the crash site was found and buried victims.
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:00 pm

Jouhou wrote:

So you want me to hate regular Russian citizens for what their government says and does? It doesn't matter if you aren't an olgino troll/fsb/gru, that's a shitty thing to do to your countrymen. For the nations you do harm to the damage is clear, and it's Russian style to make it clear who did it. There's a reason why "polonium tea" is a thing. They use methods that only a foreign government would have access to.


Why are you trying to give me words I didn't say?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:13 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Again, recall that when it officially apologized to the Europeans for the murder of our children over the Bodensee?
Maybe Switzerland or Germany were then applied international sanctions?
No? Oh, well, wow, what a surprise!


You dare to compare an accidental mid-air collision to shooting down a civil airline? Good grief, you are becoming more extreme with any post.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
Posts: 492
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Again, recall that when it officially apologized to the Europeans for the murder of our children over the Bodensee?
Maybe Switzerland or Germany were then applied international sanctions?
No? Oh, well, wow, what a surprise!


You dare to compare an accidental mid-air collision to shooting down a civil airline? Good grief, you are becoming more extreme with any post.

On your same version of that in the first, that in the second case we have mistake, which led to demise people. Or are you going to change your mind in the jump and deny your own words about the accidental Downing of the MH 17?
In fact, you've shown me a long time ago that you don't care about dead passengers. The important thing is to blame it on Russia and Russians. So all your moaning about the dead compatriots is highly hypocritical.
 
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Again, recall that when it officially apologized to the Europeans for the murder of our children over the Bodensee?
Maybe Switzerland or Germany were then applied international sanctions?
No? Oh, well, wow, what a surprise!


You dare to compare an accidental mid-air collision to shooting down a civil airline? Good grief, you are becoming more extreme with any post.


Or forgets to mention that the US and Iranian governments were and still are enemies. The lack of formal apology in fact exacerbated tensions now didn't it?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:39 pm

Scorpius wrote:
On your same version of that in the first, that in the second case we have mistake, which led to demise people. Or are you going to change your mind in the jump and deny your own words about the accidental Downing of the MH 17?
In fact, you've shown me a long time ago that you don't care about dead passengers. The important thing is to blame it on Russia and Russians. So all your moaning about the dead compatriots is highly hypocritical.


Yup, I didn't think you were able to shock me anymore, but I was proven wrong.
And now I have my answer what your reaction is going to be when it is proven the Russians did it: "ah, it was an accident and accidents happen. So what is your problem.". You show yourself off, as a cold-hearted Russian extremist. Again shame on you.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpius
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Re: Russia needs to stop ruining everything.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Yup, I didn't think you were able to shock me anymore, but I was proven wrong.
And now I have my answer what your reaction is going to be when it is proven the Russians did it: "ah, it was an accident and accidents happen. So what is your problem.". You show yourself off, as a cold-hearted Russian extremist. Again shame on you.

My reaction is not because the Russian do not have anything to do with this. However, you still continue to squeal here, broadcasting Western propaganda.
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