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Tugger
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Re: DAL and its future with Georgia

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:50 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
The legislative body can set what ever tax rate if any that they want. Direct bribery is illegal, but crony capitalism plays both ways.

What are you trying to say? Why are you avoiding the actual question being asked?

Of course they can set tax rates etc. That is part of their job. But can they dictate to a business to give a discount to a specific organization in order to get support for a piece of legislation? And what if that organization is a contributor to the public servant making that statement/requirement?

The action is legal, passing a tax law that just doesn't give a special break to aviation fuel is fine (though only hurts Atlantan's really, increasing the costs for them at their airport, all airlines will just pass through the cost). But the statement attaching it to giving a discount to a specific group is the part that is questionable at best.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:24 pm

jetero wrote:
STT757 wrote:
DL could land themselves office space in the new Hudson yards.

http://www.hudsonyardsnewyork.com


None of which will help them with their tax bill on jet fuel in Georgia.

No...but moving HQ reduces the area's jobs. ATL's operations are too big to be replicated successfully at another airport and DL would be wise to retain ATL as a hub.

That doesn't mean that HQ can't be moved elsewhere. It's not advisable, but it does make a statement. Granted, I don't know how many people are working at HQ compared to the airport (airport and DTO), but the move itself is symbolic.

That or let Amazon tell GA Republicans that if that's how they roll, HQ2 is not gonna be there.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:43 pm

jetero wrote:
STT757 wrote:
DL could land themselves office space in the new Hudson yards.

http://www.hudsonyardsnewyork.com


None of which will help them with their tax bill on jet fuel in Georgia.

All a publicity stunt. I’d say pretty good chance Amazon won’t find itself in Atlanta. And with the NRA convention in Dallas likely to blow up with plenty of political opportunism, that could hurt both Dallas and Austin.


Not so fast! RDU could be expanded. The Caribbean and LatAm flights likely remain at ATL, but other long haul flights can move elsewhere. I don’t believe ATL has the O&D to be able to have flights remain there on their own. With KQ flying to JFK starting W18, Africa traffic can be all funneled through JFK instead of ATL.
 
jetero
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:01 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
jetero wrote:
STT757 wrote:
DL could land themselves office space in the new Hudson yards.

http://www.hudsonyardsnewyork.com


None of which will help them with their tax bill on jet fuel in Georgia.

All a publicity stunt. I’d say pretty good chance Amazon won’t find itself in Atlanta. And with the NRA convention in Dallas likely to blow up with plenty of political opportunism, that could hurt both Dallas and Austin.


Not so fast! RDU could be expanded. The Caribbean and LatAm flights likely remain at ATL, but other long haul flights can move elsewhere. I don’t believe ATL has the O&D to be able to have flights remain there on their own. With KQ flying to JFK starting W18, Africa traffic can be all funneled through JFK instead of ATL.


Well you’re wrong. Not sure what to tell you. 18m O&D enplanements per year, in the top 5 for the country.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: DAL and its future with Georgia

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:51 am

Tugger wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
The legislative body can set what ever tax rate if any that they want. Direct bribery is illegal, but crony capitalism plays both ways.

What are you trying to say? Why are you avoiding the actual question being asked?

Of course they can set tax rates etc. That is part of their job. But can they dictate to a business to give a discount to a specific organization in order to get support for a piece of legislation? And what if that organization is a contributor to the public servant making that statement/requirement?

The action is legal, passing a tax law that just doesn't give a special break to aviation fuel is fine (though only hurts Atlantan's really, increasing the costs for them at their airport, all airlines will just pass through the cost). But the statement attaching it to giving a discount to a specific group is the part that is questionable at best.

Tugg


I am saying when you hook up with government to get a special tax break, be prepared to have to curry favor with government. The best solution is not to have big business and government so close to one another.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:01 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
The legislative body can set what ever tax rate if any that they want. Direct bribery is illegal, but crony capitalism plays both ways.

What are you trying to say? Why are you avoiding the actual question being asked?

Of course they can set tax rates etc. That is part of their job. But can they dictate to a business to give a discount to a specific organization in order to get support for a piece of legislation? And what if that organization is a contributor to the public servant making that statement/requirement?

The action is legal, passing a tax law that just doesn't give a special break to aviation fuel is fine (though only hurts Atlantan's really, increasing the costs for them at their airport, all airlines will just pass through the cost). But the statement attaching it to giving a discount to a specific group is the part that is questionable at best.

Tugg


I am saying when you hook up with government to get a special tax break, be prepared to have to curry favor with government. The best solution is not to have big business and government so close to one another.

So still not answering the question. Now who is being nonsensical.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:54 am

Tugger wrote:
And the threat has been made real. The tax bill passed stripped of its jet fuel exemption.
Hooray!
Tugg

Welp, they can kiss Amazon goodbye, and who knows what else just crossed GA off their list
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jubguy3
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:46 am

Georgia government gets involved in the separation of ties between two private corporations. If Casey Cagle wasn't a brainless dunce, I don't think he would have stated he brought the bill to punish Delta for separating ties with the NRA. They could have gotten away with it, too. Delta should be enjoying a lawsuit against the government of Georgia shortly :-)
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: DAL and its future with Georgia

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:18 am

Tugger wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
The legislative body can set what ever tax rate if any that they want. Direct bribery is illegal, but crony capitalism plays both ways.

What are you trying to say? Why are you avoiding the actual question being asked?

Of course they can set tax rates etc. That is part of their job. But can they dictate to a business to give a discount to a specific organization in order to get support for a piece of legislation? And what if that organization is a contributor to the public servant making that statement/requirement?

The action is legal, passing a tax law that just doesn't give a special break to aviation fuel is fine (though only hurts Atlantan's really, increasing the costs for them at their airport, all airlines will just pass through the cost). But the statement attaching it to giving a discount to a specific group is the part that is questionable at best.

Tugg


Not based on Cagle's comments. A reasonable deduction can be made that Cagle wouldn't have moved to kill the measure had the NRA issue not materialized. I thus dispute that this is legal based on that, given that Cagle had not expressed any opposition prior. Because that was his first statement, he was using his position as a public officer to attempt to extract a benefit for members of the National Rifle Association in the way of discounted fares. That's actually illegal. If Delta sues, it should be noted that the only office Democrats dominate in GA is the state Supreme Court, and the lawsuit would be in Atlanta, another case friendly to Democrats...with Republicans having to defend the case.

As for the next move for Delta, it will depend on the result of the election. If Cagle wins the nomination and then the election, he doesn't want to be known as the man who chased Delta out of Atlanta. Of its flights, the trans-oceanic flights can be moved to other hubs or transferred to JV partners, or even Kenya Airways---remember they're starting NBO-JFK in W18 which means DL no longer needs to fly ATL-JNB, instead doing an ATL-JFK-NBO-JNB routing, with JFK-NBO-JNB on KQ metal, and could reallocate the planes to a service like LAX-TLV or DTW-HKG if a slot can be garnered). Other Africa services can be flown through JFK now that JFK-LOS is coming in S18. DL can have its ATL services reduced to being a Caribbean and LatAm network on its own metal.

The other consideration besides DL is Amazon. Reportedly, Atlanta was one of the top finalists for HQ2...Amazon is now expected to pick Northern Virginia instead. If Bezos is smart, he will wait to make the announcement until it's too late to replace the Republican candidate.
 
FreequentFlier
Posts: 778
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:30 am

Re: DAL and its future with Georgia

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:12 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
The legislative body can set what ever tax rate if any that they want. Direct bribery is illegal, but crony capitalism plays both ways.

What are you trying to say? Why are you avoiding the actual question being asked?

Of course they can set tax rates etc. That is part of their job. But can they dictate to a business to give a discount to a specific organization in order to get support for a piece of legislation? And what if that organization is a contributor to the public servant making that statement/requirement?

The action is legal, passing a tax law that just doesn't give a special break to aviation fuel is fine (though only hurts Atlantan's really, increasing the costs for them at their airport, all airlines will just pass through the cost). But the statement attaching it to giving a discount to a specific group is the part that is questionable at best.

Tugg


I am saying when you hook up with government to get a special tax break, be prepared to have to curry favor with government. The best solution is not to have big business and government so close to one another.


:checkmark:

Yep. NRA issue aside, this tax break was crony capitalism run amok, so it's good to see it disappear even on its own merits (or lack thereof)
 
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Tugger
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Re: DAL and its future with Georgia

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:25 am

FreequentFlier wrote:
NRA issue aside, this tax break was crony capitalism run amok, so it's good to see it disappear even on its own merits (or lack thereof)

I agree that cronyism is something that needs and deserves to change. But this is not disappearing "on its own merits" it is disappearing exactly because of cronyism on the part of the Republican's making an issue of it. They are doing it to seek favor from those that support the NRA, the tax exemption was to seek favor from those that support and are supported by Delta.

So you are in fact supporting crony politics.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
jetero
Posts: 3220
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: DAL and its future with Georgia

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:28 am

FreequentFlier wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
Tugger wrote:
What are you trying to say? Why are you avoiding the actual question being asked?

Of course they can set tax rates etc. That is part of their job. But can they dictate to a business to give a discount to a specific organization in order to get support for a piece of legislation? And what if that organization is a contributor to the public servant making that statement/requirement?

The action is legal, passing a tax law that just doesn't give a special break to aviation fuel is fine (though only hurts Atlantan's really, increasing the costs for them at their airport, all airlines will just pass through the cost). But the statement attaching it to giving a discount to a specific group is the part that is questionable at best.

Tugg


I am saying when you hook up with government to get a special tax break, be prepared to have to curry favor with government. The best solution is not to have big business and government so close to one another.


:checkmark:

Yep. NRA issue aside, this tax break was crony capitalism run amok, so it's good to see it disappear even on its own merits (or lack thereof)


On this I agree with Dorothy and Scott Baio.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: DAL and its future with Georgia

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:02 pm

jetero wrote:
FreequentFlier wrote:
Yep. NRA issue aside, this tax break was crony capitalism run amok, so it's good to see it disappear even on its own merits (or lack thereof)


On this I agree with Dorothy and Scott Baio.

It almost makes you wonder if this was the perfect scenario for GA politicians to get rid of the break altogether.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
panamair
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:16 pm

As an aside, GA is not the only state to have had a jet fuel tax break. Both TX and NC still have them as well....And of course they are valid for all airlines, but naturally DL benefited most from the GA one, while AA is a big beneficiary of the ones in TX and NC...
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:17 am

panamair wrote:
As an aside, GA is not the only state to have had a jet fuel tax break. Both TX and NC still have them as well....And of course they are valid for all airlines, but naturally DL benefited most from the GA one, while AA is a big beneficiary of the ones in TX and NC...


If NC has a fuel tax break, RDU may look more attractive for flights under 6000 nmi. Raleigh also has 3 square miles of land that it could use for expansion---perhaps extending both runways to 11,000 feet? Remember, Delta has a focus city there and there is a major bioscience industry around there. The Latin American flights can move to Orlando. Delta expanding in Raleigh would basically be declaring war on American Airlines in North Carolina. Raleigh is also only 400 miles from Atlanta and could supplant Atlanta as the Southeast hub if Delta and North Carolina can reach an agreement.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:18 am

panamair wrote:
As an aside, GA is not the only state to have had a jet fuel tax break. Both TX and NC still have them as well....And of course they are valid for all airlines, but naturally DL benefited most from the GA one, while AA is a big beneficiary of the ones in TX and NC...


If NC has a fuel tax break, RDU may look more attractive for flights under 6000 nmi. Raleigh also has 3 square miles of land that it could use for expansion---perhaps extending both runways to 11,000 feet? Remember, Delta has a focus city there and there is a major bioscience industry around there. The Latin American flights can move to Orlando. Delta expanding in Raleigh would basically be declaring war on American Airlines in North Carolina. Raleigh is also only 400 miles from Atlanta and could supplant Atlanta as the Southeast hub if Delta and North Carolina can reach an agreement. (Currently, the largest plane RDU sees regularly is an American Airlines B772.)
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 1834
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:04 am

Hopefully Amazon wont come to Atlanta. Worse traffic, higher cost of living and Amazon doesnt pay taxes.
 
jetero
Posts: 3220
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:42 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
panamair wrote:
As an aside, GA is not the only state to have had a jet fuel tax break. Both TX and NC still have them as well....And of course they are valid for all airlines, but naturally DL benefited most from the GA one, while AA is a big beneficiary of the ones in TX and NC...


If NC has a fuel tax break, RDU may look more attractive for flights under 6000 nmi. Raleigh also has 3 square miles of land that it could use for expansion---perhaps extending both runways to 11,000 feet? Remember, Delta has a focus city there and there is a major bioscience industry around there. The Latin American flights can move to Orlando. Delta expanding in Raleigh would basically be declaring war on American Airlines in North Carolina. Raleigh is also only 400 miles from Atlanta and could supplant Atlanta as the Southeast hub if Delta and North Carolina can reach an agreement. (Currently, the largest plane RDU sees regularly is an American Airlines B772.)


You’re living in a dream world buddy.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:59 am

jetero wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
panamair wrote:
As an aside, GA is not the only state to have had a jet fuel tax break. Both TX and NC still have them as well....And of course they are valid for all airlines, but naturally DL benefited most from the GA one, while AA is a big beneficiary of the ones in TX and NC...


If NC has a fuel tax break, RDU may look more attractive for flights under 6000 nmi. Raleigh also has 3 square miles of land that it could use for expansion---perhaps extending both runways to 11,000 feet? Remember, Delta has a focus city there and there is a major bioscience industry around there. The Latin American flights can move to Orlando. Delta expanding in Raleigh would basically be declaring war on American Airlines in North Carolina. Raleigh is also only 400 miles from Atlanta and could supplant Atlanta as the Southeast hub if Delta and North Carolina can reach an agreement. (Currently, the largest plane RDU sees regularly is an American Airlines B772.)


You’re living in a dream world buddy.


It was once believed that American wouldn't move to Texas. But it did!
 
jetero
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:13 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
jetero wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:

If NC has a fuel tax break, RDU may look more attractive for flights under 6000 nmi. Raleigh also has 3 square miles of land that it could use for expansion---perhaps extending both runways to 11,000 feet? Remember, Delta has a focus city there and there is a major bioscience industry around there. The Latin American flights can move to Orlando. Delta expanding in Raleigh would basically be declaring war on American Airlines in North Carolina. Raleigh is also only 400 miles from Atlanta and could supplant Atlanta as the Southeast hub if Delta and North Carolina can reach an agreement. (Currently, the largest plane RDU sees regularly is an American Airlines B772.)


You’re living in a dream world buddy.


It was once believed that American wouldn't move to Texas. But it did!


People are conflating moving the HQ and moving the hub. I don’t believe either is at the risk of happening but the latter sure the hell won’t happen. Why would you move a hub with 18m O&D passengers to one with 5m as you cite (RDU) that, on top of that, doesn’t even come close to having the facilities? It is a complete non-possibility, full stop.
 
alfa164
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:28 am

jubguy3 wrote:
Georgia government gets involved in the separation of ties between two private corporations. If Casey Cagle wasn't a brainless dunce, I don't think he would have stated he brought the bill to punish Delta for separating ties with the NRA. They could have gotten away with it, too. Delta should be enjoying a lawsuit against the government of Georgia shortly :-)


Despite the naysaying "experts" on A.net, someone with a real knowledge of that possibility agrees with you:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... rc_engaged
 
seb146
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:57 am

Are there not enough gates at Detroit? I have not been east of the Mississippi since I was 9 months old so I have to ask.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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cvgComair
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:24 pm

seb146 wrote:
Are there not enough gates at Detroit? I have not been east of the Mississippi since I was 9 months old so I have to ask.

DL has plenty of gates at DTW which are very underutilized. I am pretty sure they even have a bunch of gates blocked off in Concourse C.
Next: CVG-BOS (Delta Air Lines MD90), BOS-AMS (Delta Air Lines A333), AMS-CPH (KLM B738)
A319/320/332/333, B712/722/732/733/738/739/752/753/763/764/772/773/788, CRJ-100/2/7/9, ERJ-145/75, MD-88/90, S340
 
D L X
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Re: Georgia Lt. Governor Threatens DL Over Cutting Ties with NRA

Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:11 pm

alfa164 wrote:
jubguy3 wrote:
Georgia government gets involved in the separation of ties between two private corporations. If Casey Cagle wasn't a brainless dunce, I don't think he would have stated he brought the bill to punish Delta for separating ties with the NRA. They could have gotten away with it, too. Delta should be enjoying a lawsuit against the government of Georgia shortly :-)


Despite the naysaying "experts" on A.net, someone with a real knowledge of that possibility agrees with you:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... rc_engaged


YUP!!!!

Corporations are people, and have first amendment rights. That means that directing legislation against a corporation in retaliation for something they said is a constitutional violation. All y'all conservatives should be mad as a hornet about this!

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