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VTKillarney
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:52 am

anrec80 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Pretty sure those people if given the option of Russian or western "interference" or invasion would pick the Russian one. You know, the one where the outcome is not chaos, misery and death?

Tell that to the Syrians.


First, Russia does not “interfere” in Syria. It’s the USA that sticked in there without any invitation. Russia is working with legitimate Syrian government based on their agreements.

And - Russian military police (crewed by people from Muslim regions of Russia, including Chechnya) is successfully restoring order on territories newly freed from ISIS before handing them over to Syrian authorities and institutions.


“interfere”: verb, to take part in the affairs of others; meddle
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:55 am

VTKillarney wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Pretty sure those people if given the option of Russian or western "interference" or invasion would pick the Russian one. You know, the one where the outcome is not chaos, misery and death?

Tell that to the Syrians.


First, Russia does not “interfere” in Syria. It’s the USA that sticked in there without any invitation. Russia is working with legitimate Syrian government based on their agreements.

And - Russian military police (crewed by people from Muslim regions of Russia, including Chechnya) is successfully restoring order on territories newly freed from ISIS before handing them over to Syrian authorities and institutions.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:05 am

Dutchy wrote:
Yes, the fellow dictator is very grateful to Putin for keeping him in power so he can go one to suppress his people.


Couldn’t agree more. And not only the “fellow dictator”, but majority of Syrians. And not only for “keeping him in power”, but also for saving the very Syrian statehood. Because in Iraq there is no more “fellow dictator” - how many hundreds of thousands dead? In Libya there is no “fellow dictator” - what are the recent refugee news?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:49 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yes, the fellow dictator is very grateful to Putin for keeping him in power so he can go one to suppress his people.


Couldn’t agree more. And not only the “fellow dictator”, but majority of Syrians. And not only for “keeping him in power”, but also for saving the very Syrian statehood. Because in Iraq there is no more “fellow dictator” - how many hundreds of thousands dead? In Libya there is no “fellow dictator” - what are the recent refugee news?


I think some opposition town under attack from Assad's army. People wanting to flee there. So that is the latest, what is your point exactly? That Assad (with help from his autocratic friend) is still slaughtering Syrians and still generating a lot of refugees?

And yes Putin is an autocratic leader, learn to live with it that you live in a dictatorship.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:18 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yes, the fellow dictator is very grateful to Putin for keeping him in power so he can go one to suppress his people.


Couldn’t agree more. And not only the “fellow dictator”, but majority of Syrians. And not only for “keeping him in power”, but also for saving the very Syrian statehood. Because in Iraq there is no more “fellow dictator” - how many hundreds of thousands dead? In Libya there is no “fellow dictator” - what are the recent refugee news?

Except that Iraq was not in a civil war. Russia has likely prolonged the war resulting in thousands upon thousands of extra dead. They are also supporting a dictator who uses chemical weapons against his own citizens.
 
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seahawk
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 am

VTKillarney wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yes, the fellow dictator is very grateful to Putin for keeping him in power so he can go one to suppress his people.


Couldn’t agree more. And not only the “fellow dictator”, but majority of Syrians. And not only for “keeping him in power”, but also for saving the very Syrian statehood. Because in Iraq there is no more “fellow dictator” - how many hundreds of thousands dead? In Libya there is no “fellow dictator” - what are the recent refugee news?

Except that Iraq was not in a civil war. Russia has likely prolonged the war resulting in thousands upon thousands of extra dead. They are also supporting a dictator who uses chemical weapons against his own citizens.


They are supporting the legitimate government in their fight to destroy a terrorist backed uprising. Russia shortened the blood shed with its competent intervention.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:07 am

seahawk wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

Couldn’t agree more. And not only the “fellow dictator”, but majority of Syrians. And not only for “keeping him in power”, but also for saving the very Syrian statehood. Because in Iraq there is no more “fellow dictator” - how many hundreds of thousands dead? In Libya there is no “fellow dictator” - what are the recent refugee news?

Except that Iraq was not in a civil war. Russia has likely prolonged the war resulting in thousands upon thousands of extra dead. They are also supporting a dictator who uses chemical weapons against his own citizens.


They are supporting the legitimate government in their fight to destroy a terrorist backed uprising. Russia shortened the blood shed with its competent intervention.

How do you know that?
 
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seahawk
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:12 am

The Russian involvement surely switched the balance of power in favour of the regime and limited the scope of intervention by other powers on the side of the rebels. So it will have allowed the regime to win faster and therefore reducing the duration of the conflict.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:40 am

seahawk wrote:
The Russian involvement surely switched the balance of power in favour of the regime and limited the scope of intervention by other powers on the side of the rebels. So it will have allowed the regime to win faster and therefore reducing the duration of the conflict.


Exactly, they shifted the power back to the Assad regime, so actually, they prolonged the war, otherwise would it have been over now. Yes I know your Troll behavior and I know you love for the Putin regime but objectively they cause a lot of suffering and death. Syrians started to flee en mass, only after the Putin intervention

And back to basic, Assad regime started to shoot on protesters. These people only wanted a bit more freedom and even that was too much for the bloody Assad regime. Fine that you want to praise a dictator, but don't say it is a blessing for Syrians.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The Russian involvement surely switched the balance of power in favour of the regime and limited the scope of intervention by other powers on the side of the rebels. So it will have allowed the regime to win faster and therefore reducing the duration of the conflict.


Exactly, they shifted the power back to the Assad regime, so actually, they prolonged the war, otherwise would it have been over now. Yes I know your Troll behavior and I know you love for the Putin regime but objectively they cause a lot of suffering and death. Syrians started to flee en mass, only after the Putin intervention

And back to basic, Assad regime started to shoot on protesters. These people only wanted a bit more freedom and even that was too much for the bloody Assad regime. Fine that you want to praise a dictator, but don't say it is a blessing for Syrians.


No outcome in this conflict would have been a blessing for the Syrian people. Not Assad, not ISIS and also not the moderate Islamic rebels sponsored by the Gulf States. The few secular rebels would always have been crushed by the winning of those 3 parties, simply because those 3 had monetary support from the outside and much more importantly manpower support.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:08 pm

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The Russian involvement surely switched the balance of power in favour of the regime and limited the scope of intervention by other powers on the side of the rebels. So it will have allowed the regime to win faster and therefore reducing the duration of the conflict.


Exactly, they shifted the power back to the Assad regime, so actually, they prolonged the war, otherwise would it have been over now. Yes I know your Troll behavior and I know you love for the Putin regime but objectively they cause a lot of suffering and death. Syrians started to flee en mass, only after the Putin intervention

And back to basic, Assad regime started to shoot on protesters. These people only wanted a bit more freedom and even that was too much for the bloody Assad regime. Fine that you want to praise a dictator, but don't say it is a blessing for Syrians.


No outcome in this conflict would have been a blessing for the Syrian people. Not Assad, not ISIS and also not the moderate Islamic rebels sponsored by the Gulf States. The few secular rebels would always have been crushed by the winning of those 3 parties, simply because those 3 had monetary support from the outside and much more importantly manpower support.


At least we can agree on something, no outcome would have been good for Syrians, this includes the Assad regime. The best outcome would have been a true interim government and truly build up society. But that would have taken decades to complete and to give the country back to the Syrians. Syria is too much polarised at the moment to be a stable country. You seem to prefer a dictator solution.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:21 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Exactly, they shifted the power back to the Assad regime, so actually, they prolonged the war, otherwise would it have been over now. Yes I know your Troll behavior and I know you love for the Putin regime but objectively they cause a lot of suffering and death. Syrians started to flee en mass, only after the Putin intervention

And back to basic, Assad regime started to shoot on protesters. These people only wanted a bit more freedom and even that was too much for the bloody Assad regime. Fine that you want to praise a dictator, but don't say it is a blessing for Syrians.


No outcome in this conflict would have been a blessing for the Syrian people. Not Assad, not ISIS and also not the moderate Islamic rebels sponsored by the Gulf States. The few secular rebels would always have been crushed by the winning of those 3 parties, simply because those 3 had monetary support from the outside and much more importantly manpower support.


At least we can agree on something, no outcome would have been good for Syrians, this includes the Assad regime. The best outcome would have been a true interim government and truly build up society. But that would have taken decades to complete and to give the country back to the Syrians. Syria is too much polarised at the moment to be a stable country. You seem to prefer a dictator solution.


I would not say I want a dictator but sometimes a dictator is needed. Under Assad rule Syria was not a nice place, but still nicer than what it looks like under the rule of ISIS or JAN. And as we learned in Yugoslavia and Irak or Lybia a strong dictator is able to control the tension between hostile ethnic or religious groups in one country. But then I do believe that humans are not that different from apes and they also organize in groups led by one strong alpha animal.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:24 pm

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:

No outcome in this conflict would have been a blessing for the Syrian people. Not Assad, not ISIS and also not the moderate Islamic rebels sponsored by the Gulf States. The few secular rebels would always have been crushed by the winning of those 3 parties, simply because those 3 had monetary support from the outside and much more importantly manpower support.


At least we can agree on something, no outcome would have been good for Syrians, this includes the Assad regime. The best outcome would have been a true interim government and truly build up society. But that would have taken decades to complete and to give the country back to the Syrians. Syria is too much polarised at the moment to be a stable country. You seem to prefer a dictator solution.


I would not say I want a dictator but sometimes a dictator is needed. Under Assad rule Syria was not a nice place, but still nicer than what it looks like under the rule of ISIS or JAN. And as we learned in Yugoslavia and Irak or Lybia a strong dictator is able to control the tension between hostile ethnic or religious groups in one country. But then I do believe that humans are not that different from apes and they also organize in groups led by one strong alpha animal.


We have learned that suppressing such feelings don't make them go away and might even make these feelings stronger if they do not have the possibility to come out in another way. But I get it, you are a cynic. That is fine, but I do have some ideas left and I do not believe someone deserves to be ruled by a dictator.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

At least we can agree on something, no outcome would have been good for Syrians, this includes the Assad regime. The best outcome would have been a true interim government and truly build up society. But that would have taken decades to complete and to give the country back to the Syrians. Syria is too much polarised at the moment to be a stable country. You seem to prefer a dictator solution.


I would not say I want a dictator but sometimes a dictator is needed. Under Assad rule Syria was not a nice place, but still nicer than what it looks like under the rule of ISIS or JAN. And as we learned in Yugoslavia and Irak or Lybia a strong dictator is able to control the tension between hostile ethnic or religious groups in one country. But then I do believe that humans are not that different from apes and they also organize in groups led by one strong alpha animal.


We have learned that suppressing such feelings don't make them go away and might even make these feelings stronger if they do not have the possibility to come out in another way. But I get it, you are a cynic. That is fine, but I do have some ideas left and I do not believe someone deserves to be ruled by a dictator.


I mainly believe that we humans are still very much an animal, more than many of us want to admit. Apart from that dictators are the form of government humans have lived under for most of human history, yet still some states achieved a democratic society with personal freedoms and all this. But a society needs to develop for that and even those democratic societies need control and pressure (in that case by elected leaders) to stay in that state. In places like Syria, where there is a deep dislike between ethnic groups and also along different religions stability is hard to achieve without some strong power keeping things quiet and under control.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:48 pm

seahawk wrote:
I mainly believe that we humans are still very much an animal, more than many of us want to admit.


Yes, humans are animals, simple as that.

seahawk wrote:
Apart from that dictators are the form of government humans have lived under for most of human history.


Is that so? I don't think so, since humans have lived most of the time in relatively small groups, and don't think there is any evidence that these were dictators. Even great societies as the Greeks and Romans have had some form of democracy and freedoms.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:40 pm

The Washington Post just released a hard hitting report on Trump and Russian conspiracy. It is well worth a read.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pol ... c84471ffbd
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:13 pm

2122M wrote:
It even concedes the only thing we can all agree on, which is that fact that we know nothing until the investigation concludes.

Interesting. So many people here have declared that there has been collusion. Maybe they work for Mueller, because if they don't those unilateral claims seem quite absurd given what you have just said.
 
2122M
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:15 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
The Washington Post just released a hard hitting report on Trump and Russian conspiracy. It is well worth a read.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pol ... c84471ffbd


Hard Hitting? The whole thing is speculation about speculation. The summary is basically; there has not yet been conclusive proof that Trump colluded directly with the Russians, however, there is a ton of evidence that indirect contact with the Russians has taken place all over the place (hence the indictments already handed out).

It even concedes the only thing we can all agree on, which is that fact that we know nothing until the investigation concludes.
 
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:47 pm

2122M wrote:
It even concedes the only thing we can all agree on, which is that fact that we know nothing until the investigation concludes.

So many people here have made the unilateral declaration that Trump colluded with the Russians. Thanks for pointing out the error in doing so. I knew we could find common ground.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:47 am

VTKillarney wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yes, the fellow dictator is very grateful to Putin for keeping him in power so he can go one to suppress his people.


Couldn’t agree more. And not only the “fellow dictator”, but majority of Syrians. And not only for “keeping him in power”, but also for saving the very Syrian statehood. Because in Iraq there is no more “fellow dictator” - how many hundreds of thousands dead? In Libya there is no “fellow dictator” - what are the recent refugee news?

Except that Iraq was not in a civil war. Russia has likely prolonged the war resulting in thousands upon thousands of extra dead. They are also supporting a dictator who uses chemical weapons against his own citizens.


Russia helped save legitimate government of Syria, that has mandate of Syrian nation. You can use words like "dictator" if you like, it's up to you. But that does not change anything.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:52 am

Dutchy wrote:
We have learned that suppressing such feelings don't make them go away and might even make these feelings stronger if they do not have the possibility to come out in another way. But I get it, you are a cynic. That is fine, but I do have some ideas left and I do not believe someone deserves to be ruled by a dictator.


Dutchy, you should stop giving yourself right to decide for others how and by whom they want to be ruled. Given Assad's government has survived this war, maintained loyalty among military, and Assad himself freely roams around Damascus marketplaces among other people (as well as drives around the city) - that says a lot. He is the legitimate leader of Syrians, period. You can call him anyhow you like, but he is their choice, he is popular and you ought to respect it.
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:55 am

seahawk wrote:
The Russian involvement surely switched the balance of power in favour of the regime and limited the scope of intervention by other powers on the side of the rebels. So it will have allowed the regime to win faster and therefore reducing the duration of the conflict.


Switched balance from whom? From ISIS apparently. And - Russia is in Syria upon invitation and by agreement with legitimate leadership of this country. "Other powers" - nobody invited them there, they are nothing but invaders into someone else's country. Do you get the difference between grounds for Russian presence and "other powers" presence now?
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:05 am

Dutchy wrote:

Exactly, they shifted the power back to the Assad regime, so actually, they prolonged the war, otherwise would it have been over now. Yes I know your Troll behavior and I know you love for the Putin regime but objectively they cause a lot of suffering and death. Syrians started to flee en mass, only after the Putin intervention

And back to basic, Assad regime started to shoot on protesters. These people only wanted a bit more freedom and even that was too much for the bloody Assad regime. Fine that you want to praise a dictator, but don't say it is a blessing for Syrians.


Yes, the war in Syria itself would have been over in a few months - it would have been won by ISIS. With all the following consequences. Such as a powerful and rich terror state, with its own economy based on oil trade. I don't know if you had got more refugees then or less - because then potential refugees would have been killed en masse. But then you certainly would have had such "Islamic states" in Europe - funded by EU's welfare system in addition to oil revenues from Syria. And yes, they would be cutting heads too.

And don't ask who would buy this oil - during ISIS better days, Syrian oil was flowing through Turkey, and EU member states didn't see any issues buying it. This trade never was even sanctioned.
 
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:06 am

Dutchy wrote:
At least we can agree on something, no outcome would have been good for Syrians, this includes the Assad regime. The best outcome would have been a true interim government and truly build up society. But that would have taken decades to complete and to give the country back to the Syrians. Syria is too much polarised at the moment to be a stable country. You seem to prefer a dictator solution.


What other solutions are there? Many others were tried in this poor region, all of them failed. None succeeded.
 
Scorpius
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:02 am

The spacecraft "Progress MS-09" first flew on the ISS for ultrashort scheme. The flight took only three and a half hours.
 
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:52 pm

anrec80 wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

Couldn’t agree more. And not only the “fellow dictator”, but majority of Syrians. And not only for “keeping him in power”, but also for saving the very Syrian statehood. Because in Iraq there is no more “fellow dictator” - how many hundreds of thousands dead? In Libya there is no “fellow dictator” - what are the recent refugee news?

Except that Iraq was not in a civil war. Russia has likely prolonged the war resulting in thousands upon thousands of extra dead. They are also supporting a dictator who uses chemical weapons against his own citizens.


Russia helped save legitimate government of Syria, that has mandate of Syrian nation. You can use words like "dictator" if you like, it's up to you. But that does not change anything.


You call on the legitimacy, a dictator can never be legitimate, especially if there is an uprise from the citizens which was crushed by this regime. But since you fiercely defend Putin, I can feel with you that you do defend the Assad regime in the same way.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:38 am

If this thread turns into personal attacks, it will be locked just like the last one. These personal attacks are getting ridiculous, and if they continue, then users may face a ban on their account. Be civil, or don't post.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
anrec80
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:40 am

Dutchy wrote:
You call on the legitimacy, a dictator can never be legitimate, especially if there is an uprise from the citizens which was crushed by this regime. But since you fiercely defend Putin, I can feel with you that you do defend the Assad regime in the same way.


I'd encourage you to re-read my post again a few times. Whether or not a leader of someone else's country is legitimate or not - this is solely up to citizens of that country. And nobody else. Not even you. And in every country there is law enforcement and court system, that will determine what this "uprise" was, whether it was legal or not. And even if there is "uprise" - government officials still have their mandate to perform their duties, and it includes restoration of the order. Whether officials acted within their mandate or not - this is again up to the court system of that country, and not you.

I do not defend Putin or Assad here. I defend the right of any nation to choose their leadership and the elected leadership to perform their responsibilities and represent the interest of their voters. Nothing else. Decision in any country, especially democratic, are made during election process, and not on squares during "uprise" of any sort. What happens when the "uprise" is not suppressed and lawful order is not restored promptly - Ukraine is the best example. Syrians did not want that obviously.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:15 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You call on the legitimacy, a dictator can never be legitimate, especially if there is an uprise from the citizens which was crushed by this regime. But since you fiercely defend Putin, I can feel with you that you do defend the Assad regime in the same way.


I'd encourage you to re-read my post again a few times. Whether or not a leader of someone else's country is legitimate or not - this is solely up to citizens of that country. And nobody else. Not even you. And in every country there is law enforcement and court system, that will determine what this "uprise" was, whether it was legal or not. And even if there is "uprise" - government officials still have their mandate to perform their duties, and it includes restoration of the order. Whether officials acted within their mandate or not - this is again up to the court system of that country, and not you.

I do not defend Putin or Assad here. I defend the right of any nation to choose their leadership and the elected leadership to perform their responsibilities and represent the interest of their voters. Nothing else. Decision in any country, especially democratic, are made during election process, and not on squares during "uprise" of any sort. What happens when the "uprise" is not suppressed and lawful order is not restored promptly - Ukraine is the best example. Syrians did not want that obviously.


No, you specifically defend Putin's Russia here. You only post in threads with some kind of Russian connection, so I can't see this in any other way.

On the basic assumptions, you are right, every population has the right to choose for itself. But that is the thing with a dictatorship, it is forced upon you. You cannot uprise, there isn't an independent court system. There isn't an independent police force. So that questions the legitimacy of the leadership. You live in Russia, you are in a dictatorship, a relatively mild one. But given Putin's behavior, I think an uprise would be crushed with the same force as in Syria. Any attempt to even challenge Putin's regime in the mildest manner is crushed.

As for Ukraine, Russia is meddling in that one. So I guess that you denote Putin for that?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:23 am

A small explanation of the monuments to Soviet soldiers in Eastern Europe.
ACT

25 Sep 1945 of the mountains. Sunlance

We, the undersigned Military commandant of the district Sunlance, major Scars Boris Konstantinovich – on the one hand, and the Plenipotentiary of the Polish Government in the district Sunlance komarnicki Slawomir I. on the other hand, made this act about the following:

Military commandant of the district Sunlance reports Starostwo district Sunlance the mausoleum, under the arches of which are buried officers, sergeants and privates of the red Army, fallen in the struggle against the German invaders for the freedom and independence of the Slavic peoples (memorial note about buried is annexed to this act);

At the same time, the old town of Schönlank receives a monument–tank, a swimming pool with a fountain placed between the monument – tank and the mausoleum, as well as two landscaped, decorated and furnished garden areas, built with terraces (ledges), on the front of which a mausoleum will be erected, and a levelled, decorated, landscaped, decorated and furnished with garden furniture area, named since August 15, 1945–"red Army Square". (aide-Memoire on the construction and decoration of the mausoleum, the tank-monument and the red Army square is attached to this act; in addition, a copy of the act, handed Over to the old district of Schönlank attached wiring diagram of the electric cable and water pipes);

The old age of the Schönlanke district in commemoration of the inviolability of friendship and brotherhood of the Polish people and the peoples of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics undertakes to support all the buildings (mausoleum, monument-tank, electric lighting, water supply, swimming pool with fountain, playgrounds, children's sandpit, furniture, fence, vases, etc.) in the purity and in order to maintain and improve these facilities, maintain and increase green spaces (trees, bushes, flowers and grass) and turn the now created Park into a genuine Botanical garden, which would be the basis for training of the younger generation;

Eldership of the district Sunlance creates a permanent guardianship Committee, whose duties shall be:

a) creation of public care and Thrifty attitude of the population to the mausoleum, monument-tank, Park and all other facilities;
b) creation of public opinion in order to further strengthen the Polish-Soviet friendship;
C) maintaining the memory of those who gave their lives for the freedom, independence and prosperity of the Slavic peoples;
d) assistance to the senility Of the region of Schönlank and the city authorities in the implementation of paragraph 3 of this act.
5. This act for the appropriate signatures and seals drawn up in six copies, three copies are given to the mayor of the district Sunlance and Military Commander of the district Sunlance. The scheme of the electric cable and water supply is attached to one of the copies handed to the old Age.

The military commandant of the district Sunlance Scars

Commissioner of the Polish Government of the district Sunlance komarnicki

Annex to paragraph 1
MEMORIAL NOTE ON BURIED UNDER THE ARCHES OF THE MAUSOLEUM
IN THE MOUNTAINS. SUNLANCE ON THE SQUARE RED ARMY.

Only 56 people were buried. The names of the forty fallen soldiers of the red Army could not be established; the names of the other sixteen next:

Title Surname name Patronymic year of birth-date of death
1. Gw.Major Androsyuk Joseph Ivanovich 1916-1945
2. St.L-NT. Michalec Michael G. 1914-1945
3. Gw.Ml.L-NT Chernokon Ivan Adamovich 1919-25.2.1945
4. Corporal Naumovich Semyon Ivanovich 1909-1945
5. Ordinary Rassulov M. 1913-30.1.1945
6. Gw. Lieutenant Shumilov Peter Petrovich 1921-27.1.1945
7. Lieutenant Egorov Nikolay Alekseevich 1907-27.1.1945
8. Sergeant Pristiajnic Alexander Y. 1925-27.1.1945
9. St.Sergeant Andreev Sergey Mitrofanovich 1918-27.1.1945
10. Gw.Sergeant Jacob N. Fofanov 1906-27.1.1945
11. Gw.Sergeant Ivan Spiridonov A. 1926-27.1.1945
12. Gw.Sergeant Frolov Alexey Nikiforovich 1925-27.1.1945
13. Gw.Sergeant Bashkirov Gregory 1925-27.1.1945
14. Gw.Ml.Serge. Cherkashin Ivan Filippovich 1912-27.1.1945
15. Gw.Sergeant Semochkin Ivan 1909-27.1.1945
16. Gw.Sergeant Andryukhin Viktor Alexandrovich 1924-27.1.1945

The fallen comrades were collected, as a rule, from obscure graves, located both in the city and in its surroundings. Many were not buried at all and were in the destroyed and burned-out tanks.

Only on the graves of the guards.major Androsyuk I. I.; St.Lieutenant Mikhailets M. G., GV.ml. Lieutenant Chernokon I. A., corporal S. I. Naumovich and ordinary Rassulov M. were boards with inscriptions. All these boards were Packed and stacked in the attic of the mausoleum.

From the text on the bronze Board, removed from the tombstone on the tomb of GV.major Androsyuk, it is known that he commanded the units that took 27.1.1945 Gor. Sunlance and that he Androsyuk I. I., first out on the river Oder, which is now the Western border of the Polish Republic. Further, - it is known that M. Rassulov comes from the mountains. Tashkent's.
All the dead 27.1.1945 g. - tankers.

Military commandant of the district Sunlance major Scarring
25 September 1945
mountain. Sunlance (Tanka)

Annex to paragraph 2
MEMORANDUM
on the construction and design of the mausoleum, the monument–the tank and the area of the red Army in the city Sunlance.

The mausoleum's construction was started on 26 April 1945 at the initiative of the Military Commandant's office of the district Sunlance. All the building (the mausoleum, the monument–tank, etc.) and the appearance of the square was carried out by the project major Rubtsov, B. K. artwork – original and not a compilation.

The mausoleum was opened on August 15, 1945.
The construction of the mausoleum, the sites, the breakdown and planting of the Park, the construction of the pool with a fountain, the monument–tank, the installation of garden furniture and all other works on the design of the area lasted four and a half months.
During this time it was delivered 2350 cubic meters of black soil, up to 10 thousand cubic meters of land was transferred on the spot, brought up to 250 tons of sand, gravel and gravel, spent more than 175 tons of cement, about 20 thousand pieces of brick, more than 300 cubic meters of wild stone and many other materials.
Sometimes the number of workers reached 600 people on average worked up to 120 people, the labor force consisted of Germans, local residents. All works were carried out exclusively by hand, as there was no mechanization. The draught power reached at the beginning of construction (may), when there were earthworks, 170-180 horses (85-90 carts).

Technical assistance in the construction of the mausoleum was provided by the Polish engineer Stanislav Kazimirovich Pole. He was also a manufacturer of works on the construction of two sites – terraces and the mausoleum itself until the front of the mausoleum was cast.

The main organizer of the labor force and the closest assistant to the Military commandant of the district Sunlance major Rubtsov B. K. during the construction of the mausoleum, the monument–tank and design of the square was the Deputy Military commandant of the district Sunlance on the political part major Kochetov Paul G..

On the construction of the mausoleum on June 23, 1945, employees of the magistrate's poles for the first time in Sunlance was held "Saturday", than provided significant assistance to the construction.

For the monument–the tank was used tank (T–34), shot down on the same square, on 27 January 1945.; during the battle for the conquest of the city Sunlance. The tank was moved from the place where it was shot down to 26 meters and installed on a pedestal. Tank to top of manhole filled with cement than srowen with a pedestal.

On the tank saved his earlier signs and name (Soviet Lviv region), written two slogans and placed the date of the great Patriotic war of the Soviet people against the German invaders (22.6.1941 – 8.5.1945) and the date of the capture of the mountains. Sunlance red Army (27 January 1945).
Under the abandoned German tank crushed the eagle. This eagle is taken from the destroyed German monument in the mountains.Sunlance.

The area on which the mausoleum was built before construction was dirty, paved with round stone, wavy and sharply sloping. It was lined, decorated and landscaped. In the Park was planted up to 8 thousand different trees and bushes, were broken paths, flower beds, garden furniture (34 benches, 10 boxes of garbage), made a box of sand for young children.

The mausoleum is illuminated inside by 5 lamps (three – above and two – below, a total of one thousand candles), and outside-by two lamps (four lamps on each; each lamp is two hundred candles). In addition, the lights have reflectors — two of them illuminate the mausoleum (four candles) and two – a monument–tank (four candles). On the area held water for watering the Park (four processes).
The fountain of the pool gives a jet at full voltage up to 15 meters.

Until August 15, 1945 the square was called "Market square", and since August 15 it was called"red Army Square".

The military commandant of the district Sunlance major Rubtsov
25 September 1945

The monument was demolished in September 2017. The remains of 56 soldiers of the red Army were not reburied. Local authorities said that " they found no graves"
Image

And now think about how people in Russia perceive it. And who for us are those people who desecrate monuments to our relatives.
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:10 pm

Undoubtedly, the author is Putin's agent:
The Western image of Moscow and Russia as violent and impoverished is a fantasy. Moscow is actually a very safe, well run and orderly city, which compares very well with the great cities of the West.
http://theduran.com/where-are-moscows-potholes/
 
Berevoff
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:19 pm

Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:29 pm

Scorpius wrote:
A small explanation of the monuments to Soviet soldiers in Eastern Europe.
ACT

25 Sep 1945 of the mountains. Sunlance

We, the undersigned Military commandant of the district Sunlance, major Scars Boris Konstantinovich – on the one hand, and the Plenipotentiary of the Polish Government in the district Sunlance komarnicki Slawomir I. on the other hand, made this act about the following:

Military commandant of the district Sunlance reports Starostwo district Sunlance the mausoleum, under the arches of which are buried officers, sergeants and privates of the red Army, fallen in the struggle against the German invaders for the freedom and independence of the Slavic peoples (memorial note about buried is annexed to this act);

At the same time, the old town of Schönlank receives a monument–tank, a swimming pool with a fountain placed between the monument – tank and the mausoleum, as well as two landscaped, decorated and furnished garden areas, built with terraces (ledges), on the front of which a mausoleum will be erected, and a levelled, decorated, landscaped, decorated and furnished with garden furniture area, named since August 15, 1945–"red Army Square". (aide-Memoire on the construction and decoration of the mausoleum, the tank-monument and the red Army square is attached to this act; in addition, a copy of the act, handed Over to the old district of Schönlank attached wiring diagram of the electric cable and water pipes);

The old age of the Schönlanke district in commemoration of the inviolability of friendship and brotherhood of the Polish people and the peoples of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics undertakes to support all the buildings (mausoleum, monument-tank, electric lighting, water supply, swimming pool with fountain, playgrounds, children's sandpit, furniture, fence, vases, etc.) in the purity and in order to maintain and improve these facilities, maintain and increase green spaces (trees, bushes, flowers and grass) and turn the now created Park into a genuine Botanical garden, which would be the basis for training of the younger generation;

Eldership of the district Sunlance creates a permanent guardianship Committee, whose duties shall be:

a) creation of public care and Thrifty attitude of the population to the mausoleum, monument-tank, Park and all other facilities;
b) creation of public opinion in order to further strengthen the Polish-Soviet friendship;
C) maintaining the memory of those who gave their lives for the freedom, independence and prosperity of the Slavic peoples;
d) assistance to the senility Of the region of Schönlank and the city authorities in the implementation of paragraph 3 of this act.
5. This act for the appropriate signatures and seals drawn up in six copies, three copies are given to the mayor of the district Sunlance and Military Commander of the district Sunlance. The scheme of the electric cable and water supply is attached to one of the copies handed to the old Age.

The military commandant of the district Sunlance Scars

Commissioner of the Polish Government of the district Sunlance komarnicki

Annex to paragraph 1
MEMORIAL NOTE ON BURIED UNDER THE ARCHES OF THE MAUSOLEUM
IN THE MOUNTAINS. SUNLANCE ON THE SQUARE RED ARMY.

Only 56 people were buried. The names of the forty fallen soldiers of the red Army could not be established; the names of the other sixteen next:

Title Surname name Patronymic year of birth-date of death
1. Gw.Major Androsyuk Joseph Ivanovich 1916-1945
2. St.L-NT. Michalec Michael G. 1914-1945
3. Gw.Ml.L-NT Chernokon Ivan Adamovich 1919-25.2.1945
4. Corporal Naumovich Semyon Ivanovich 1909-1945
5. Ordinary Rassulov M. 1913-30.1.1945
6. Gw. Lieutenant Shumilov Peter Petrovich 1921-27.1.1945
7. Lieutenant Egorov Nikolay Alekseevich 1907-27.1.1945
8. Sergeant Pristiajnic Alexander Y. 1925-27.1.1945
9. St.Sergeant Andreev Sergey Mitrofanovich 1918-27.1.1945
10. Gw.Sergeant Jacob N. Fofanov 1906-27.1.1945
11. Gw.Sergeant Ivan Spiridonov A. 1926-27.1.1945
12. Gw.Sergeant Frolov Alexey Nikiforovich 1925-27.1.1945
13. Gw.Sergeant Bashkirov Gregory 1925-27.1.1945
14. Gw.Ml.Serge. Cherkashin Ivan Filippovich 1912-27.1.1945
15. Gw.Sergeant Semochkin Ivan 1909-27.1.1945
16. Gw.Sergeant Andryukhin Viktor Alexandrovich 1924-27.1.1945

The fallen comrades were collected, as a rule, from obscure graves, located both in the city and in its surroundings. Many were not buried at all and were in the destroyed and burned-out tanks.

Only on the graves of the guards.major Androsyuk I. I.; St.Lieutenant Mikhailets M. G., GV.ml. Lieutenant Chernokon I. A., corporal S. I. Naumovich and ordinary Rassulov M. were boards with inscriptions. All these boards were Packed and stacked in the attic of the mausoleum.

From the text on the bronze Board, removed from the tombstone on the tomb of GV.major Androsyuk, it is known that he commanded the units that took 27.1.1945 Gor. Sunlance and that he Androsyuk I. I., first out on the river Oder, which is now the Western border of the Polish Republic. Further, - it is known that M. Rassulov comes from the mountains. Tashkent's.
All the dead 27.1.1945 g. - tankers.

Military commandant of the district Sunlance major Scarring
25 September 1945
mountain. Sunlance (Tanka)

Annex to paragraph 2
MEMORANDUM
on the construction and design of the mausoleum, the monument–the tank and the area of the red Army in the city Sunlance.

The mausoleum's construction was started on 26 April 1945 at the initiative of the Military Commandant's office of the district Sunlance. All the building (the mausoleum, the monument–tank, etc.) and the appearance of the square was carried out by the project major Rubtsov, B. K. artwork – original and not a compilation.

The mausoleum was opened on August 15, 1945.
The construction of the mausoleum, the sites, the breakdown and planting of the Park, the construction of the pool with a fountain, the monument–tank, the installation of garden furniture and all other works on the design of the area lasted four and a half months.
During this time it was delivered 2350 cubic meters of black soil, up to 10 thousand cubic meters of land was transferred on the spot, brought up to 250 tons of sand, gravel and gravel, spent more than 175 tons of cement, about 20 thousand pieces of brick, more than 300 cubic meters of wild stone and many other materials.
Sometimes the number of workers reached 600 people on average worked up to 120 people, the labor force consisted of Germans, local residents. All works were carried out exclusively by hand, as there was no mechanization. The draught power reached at the beginning of construction (may), when there were earthworks, 170-180 horses (85-90 carts).

Technical assistance in the construction of the mausoleum was provided by the Polish engineer Stanislav Kazimirovich Pole. He was also a manufacturer of works on the construction of two sites – terraces and the mausoleum itself until the front of the mausoleum was cast.

The main organizer of the labor force and the closest assistant to the Military commandant of the district Sunlance major Rubtsov B. K. during the construction of the mausoleum, the monument–tank and design of the square was the Deputy Military commandant of the district Sunlance on the political part major Kochetov Paul G..

On the construction of the mausoleum on June 23, 1945, employees of the magistrate's poles for the first time in Sunlance was held "Saturday", than provided significant assistance to the construction.

For the monument–the tank was used tank (T–34), shot down on the same square, on 27 January 1945.; during the battle for the conquest of the city Sunlance. The tank was moved from the place where it was shot down to 26 meters and installed on a pedestal. Tank to top of manhole filled with cement than srowen with a pedestal.

On the tank saved his earlier signs and name (Soviet Lviv region), written two slogans and placed the date of the great Patriotic war of the Soviet people against the German invaders (22.6.1941 – 8.5.1945) and the date of the capture of the mountains. Sunlance red Army (27 January 1945).
Under the abandoned German tank crushed the eagle. This eagle is taken from the destroyed German monument in the mountains.Sunlance.

The area on which the mausoleum was built before construction was dirty, paved with round stone, wavy and sharply sloping. It was lined, decorated and landscaped. In the Park was planted up to 8 thousand different trees and bushes, were broken paths, flower beds, garden furniture (34 benches, 10 boxes of garbage), made a box of sand for young children.

The mausoleum is illuminated inside by 5 lamps (three – above and two – below, a total of one thousand candles), and outside-by two lamps (four lamps on each; each lamp is two hundred candles). In addition, the lights have reflectors — two of them illuminate the mausoleum (four candles) and two – a monument–tank (four candles). On the area held water for watering the Park (four processes).
The fountain of the pool gives a jet at full voltage up to 15 meters.

Until August 15, 1945 the square was called "Market square", and since August 15 it was called"red Army Square".

The military commandant of the district Sunlance major Rubtsov
25 September 1945

The monument was demolished in September 2017. The remains of 56 soldiers of the red Army were not reburied. Local authorities said that " they found no graves"
Image

And now think about how people in Russia perceive it. And who for us are those people who desecrate monuments to our relatives.


That image looks really photoshopped for some reason.
 
Scorpius
Topic Author
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:14 am

Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:07 pm

Berevoff wrote:

That image looks really photoshopped for some reason.

Image
 
anrec80
Posts: 887
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: From Russia with true vol. 2

Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:22 pm

Dutchy wrote:

On the basic assumptions, you are right, every population has the right to choose for itself. But that is the thing with a dictatorship, it is forced upon you. You cannot uprise, there isn't an independent court system. There isn't an independent police force. So that questions the legitimacy of the leadership. You live in Russia, you are in a dictatorship, a relatively mild one. But given Putin's behavior, I think an uprise would be crushed with the same force as in Syria. Any attempt to even challenge Putin's regime in the mildest manner is crushed.

As for Ukraine, Russia is meddling in that one. So I guess that you denote Putin for that?


OK - so now you say you can label someone a "dictator", and then go on deciding for that other nation who should and who should not govern them? Look at the results of such "decisions" - everywhere such "decisions", implemented via "revolutions" or "maidans" were bringing to power totally incompetent losers at best. In most cases - they were war criminals in addition to that, and such intrusion was causing by far more victims than the previous "dictator". These things need to be left up to the nation itself and they must come to a political system that works for them in an evolution manner, over time.

Speaking what you call "uprising" - every Western country has tough laws for things like civil disorder, attempts to organize a coup, conspiracy in illegal seizure of power. In the "greatest democracy of the world" one can even have a seat on an electric chair for that.

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