bagoldex
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GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:36 pm

Raised $20.3m of $1b goal. Per Trump White House estimates of $5.7b for 234 miles, they didn’t even get enough to construct one mile of the barrier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/11/us/g ... efund.html

Imagine if this guy cared as much about his fellow disabled veterans as he does about self-promotion and sowing irrational fear, hatred and division. As much as it delights me to see MAGA saps get conned it’s even better to see another Trump-caliber grifter publicly humiliate himself.
 
Brick
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:46 pm

Imagine if the Democrats cared more for border security than getting illegals in for future Democrat votes, then people wouldn't have to resort to such actions.
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
 
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Jouhou
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:14 pm

I was really hoping people would lose their money to this con. Guys, you should totally make sure your money goes to this guy's wall charity! It's totally going to a border wall.
 
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Aesma
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:42 pm

We didn't believe Mexico would pay for the wall, were we also in a small club ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
johns624
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:54 pm

Why would anyone voluntarily pay what is basically more taxes?
 
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Jouhou
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:59 pm

johns624 wrote:
Why would anyone voluntarily pay what is basically more taxes?


I'd pay more for something that would be a net gain for the country, like let's say, infrastructure. Infrastructure is an investment that has both immediate and long term benefits, it's an investment. An outdated physical barrier that is nothing more than an expensive political prop isn't an investment. If Trump supporters want their useless political boondoggle, they can pay for it their selves.
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:04 pm

The right sure do love their walls to keep out the big baddies. In the future it will be something else and then something else again on and on and on. Always fearful, always paranoid, always angry. I can’t imagine living my life like that.
 
tommy1808
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:18 pm

Brick wrote:
Imagine if the Democrats cared more for border security than getting illegals in for future Democrat votes, then people wouldn't have to resort to such actions.


If the wall had any popular support, the campaign would not have failed. Obviously hardly anyone wants it.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Jouhou
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:24 pm

Personally I think Congress should pass legislation to set up an actual fund for wall lovers to contribute to. I'm OK with the "wall" if they pay for it. 10 years later and $20 billion in they might figure out for their selves it's an expensive boondoggle not even they would have the will to complete.
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:42 pm

CitizenJustin wrote:
The right sure do love their walls to keep out the big baddies. In the future it will be something else and then something else again on and on and on. Always fearful, always paranoid, always angry. I can’t imagine living my life like that.

These people thought a lot like you.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/31/63437340 ... d-together
 
dmg626
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:43 pm

Brick wrote:
Imagine if the Democrats cared more for border security than getting illegals in for future Democrat votes, then people wouldn't have to resort to such actions.



They do care about border security, just listen to all the speeches they made about it for the last several years, seeing that Trump wants it, now there against it. All Trump has to do is say he wants to tear down all the fences, then the Dems will be all for building it again.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:01 pm

dmg626 wrote:
Brick wrote:
Imagine if the Democrats cared more for border security than getting illegals in for future Democrat votes, then people wouldn't have to resort to such actions.



They do care about border security, just listen to all the speeches they made about it for the last several years, seeing that Trump wants it, now there against it. All Trump has to do is say he wants to tear down all the fences, then the Dems will be all for building it again.


I'm all about destroying cartels, not an expensive political prop that would do jack shit to cartels who use drones, mini-subs, and tunnels. If we were talking about launching an expensive satellite honed to detecting cartel activity and intercepting them, I'd be all for it.
 
2122M
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:46 pm

dmg626 wrote:
Brick wrote:
Imagine if the Democrats cared more for border security than getting illegals in for future Democrat votes, then people wouldn't have to resort to such actions.



They do care about border security, just listen to all the speeches they made about it for the last several years, seeing that Trump wants it, now there against it. All Trump has to do is say he wants to tear down all the fences, then the Dems will be all for building it again.


You can’t interchange ‘the wall’ with ‘border security’. Everyone wants ‘border security’, but not everyone wants to sped 5.6 Billion dollars on a wall when there are far better and far more cost effective ways to deal with the problem.
 
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bgm
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:20 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
The right sure do love their walls to keep out the big baddies. In the future it will be something else and then something else again on and on and on. Always fearful, always paranoid, always angry. I can’t imagine living my life like that.

These people thought a lot like you.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/31/63437340 ... d-together


Better watch out for all those Tajiks crossing the border then.
When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. When you're born in America, you get a front row seat. - George Carlin
 
BN747
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:32 pm

Brick wrote:
Imagine if the Democrats cared more for border security than getting illegals in for future Democrat votes, then people wouldn't have to resort to such actions.


Better still IMAGINE if Repukes truly were worried about the Nation's security? Hmmmm...a gov't shutdown over wanting to stop terrorist from entering - but the shutdown is issuing an invitation to terrorist worldwide. The shutdown is wearing down the non-paid TSA workers and the ATC controllers...the Wall supporters (at any cost) might as well make money of the shutdown by taking out ads reading 'Terrorist Business Class Discounts to America! Now on Sale"...since they come by way of airports anyway instead of 'sneaking across the border'..make money on putting out a BIGGER welcome mat Wall Supporters, how long can the TSA and ATC controllers tread water so you can make the fat happy orange idiot happy? Him being happy and getting his way is far more important than stopping terrorist, right guys?


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:29 pm

Heres the main reasons why 'the Wall is a BIG fn scam...

US Soldiers Caught Smuggling Coke - Plead Guilty

..think that's a 1st time or a reoccurring evenr with one FUBAR?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1sqnKzrAYM

But the most damaging...
Listen to arguably, the world's Largest Drug Dealing Op Ever..

The El Chapo Trial Shows Trump Is All Wrong About Drugs

https://www.thedailybeast.com/el-chapo-could-tell-you-trumps-wall-is-for-chumps?ref=home

"El Chapo also brought drugs in via trains and ships and submarines, none of which would be hampered by a wall. And he did not use tunnels just to break out of a Mexican prison. He constructed more than 100 that ran under border barriers, often from a warehouse in Mexico to one in the U.S., in an industrial area where trucks could come and go without drawing particular attention."


...but the wall would stop all that...

....uh huh sure it will, wait for the official stats to come out and tell the 'real' story - as if that will really happen.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
luckyone
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:40 pm

BN747 wrote:
The shutdown is wearing down the non-paid TSA workers and the ATC controllers

Indeed. Three days ago I went through SEA with my spouse and mother in law. I accidentally sent my spouse my mother-in-law's boarding pass from the United Airlines app...and we didn't catch that until we were at the gate. Ergo, my spouse got through the TSA ID check with my mother-in-law's boarding pass. If that isn't food for thought...
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:45 pm

BN747 wrote:
The El Chapo Trial Shows Trump Is All Wrong About Drugs[/b]
https://www.thedailybeast.com/el-chapo-could-tell-you-trumps-wall-is-for-chumps?ref=home

"El Chapo also brought drugs in via trains and ships and submarines, none of which would be hampered by a wall. And he did not use tunnels just to break out of a Mexican prison. He constructed more than 100 that ran under border barriers, often from a warehouse in Mexico to one in the U.S., in an industrial area where trucks could come and go without drawing particular attention."


...but the wall would stop all that...
BN747

In WWII, the Germans listened closely for allied prisoners trying to escape using underground tunnels.

Even further back, during WWI both sides listened for miners excavating tunnels in order to place explosive ordnance near each others trenches.

The technology has been around for a hundred years (literally).

Currently, the experts seem to be the Israelis
http://www.elpam.com/products/tunnels-disclosure/
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:55 pm

Brick wrote:
Imagine if the Democrats cared more for border security than getting illegals in for future Democrat votes, then people wouldn't have to resort to such actions.

Imagine if Republicans stopped hiring undocumented immigrants including all of agriculture and Trump's properties...

bgm wrote:
VTKillarney wrote:
CitizenJustin wrote:
The right sure do love their walls to keep out the big baddies. In the future it will be something else and then something else again on and on and on. Always fearful, always paranoid, always angry. I can’t imagine living my life like that.

These people thought a lot like you.

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/31/63437340 ... d-together


Better watch out for all those Tajiks crossing the border then.

Who needs Tajiks when we are BFFs with Saudis? Or "in love" (actual Trump quote) with Kim Jong Un?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:43 am

I'm shocked (I know, that's my first mistake) that anyone would think this gofundme would work. I mean... wouldn't you at least want an assurance the government would take this money and put it towards the wall? No?

I don't like the wall debate. It's either "it will work" or "it won't work." Of course it won't stop everything... but it obviously would help. I don't know why these are even up for debate. The real question is "is it worth the money?" I'm doubtful the initial costs are, but definitely not the upkeep.

I do wonder what people are talking about when they say the wall is immoral. What? Every nation has barriers to entry of some sort. It being taller or more "medieval" looking is just an attempt at it being more effective. More effective border security is racist or immoral?

(Disclaimer because I have to these days: for 100% border security or as close as that can be, amnesty, and have no problem with immigration (increase it, I don't mind!))
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:48 am

Brick wrote:
Imagine if the Democrats cared more for border security than getting illegals in for future Democrat votes, then people wouldn't have to resort to such actions.

If Republicans thought border security was really a national emergency they would have gotten the wall funded when they controlled both chambers of Congress through reconciliation. And you are aware that many illegals are here because they overstay their visas, right?

Keep deflecting and making baseless statements.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
tommy1808
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:57 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
It being taller or more "medieval" looking is just an attempt at it being more effective.


It is not a medieval Wall Trump is planning. Those had open gates during the day, and when an enemy came charging let everyone in that needed protection. They where made to keep those out that show hostile intend.

More effective border security is racist or immoral?


The wall itself is neither. But it is proposed, and tried to force upon the american People by essentially starving government workers, by Trump. And he wants to keep non-whites out. He openly sides with white supremacist and doesn´t even really denounce them when pressured. He knows that the wall will make border crossing more dangerous, getting more people killed in the process. It is not the wall itself that makes it immoral and racist, it is the guy that wants to build it above anything else. It is the intend of and by a guy that made the US government into a child kidnapping ring.

Its like building highways, in itself a perfectly legit and useful thing to do. But if you start building them with the intention to make troop movements for a war of aggression easier, they are still immoral. Intentions matter. If he was about reducing drugs coming into the country, he would demand money for more x-Ray scanners and staff at the port of entry.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:06 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
It is not the wall itself that makes it immoral and racist, it is the guy that wants to build it above anything else.

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that the wall is fine - you just don't like the guy who is building it. That doesn't seem like a very good reason to shut down government, or to object to the wall. It has the appearance of putting politics ahead of everything else.

If you are concerned that the wall will somehow be used for illegal purposes, the courts would put a quick end to that. So that really isn't a reason to object to it.
 
2122M
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:58 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
It is not the wall itself that makes it immoral and racist, it is the guy that wants to build it above anything else.

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that the wall is fine - you just don't like the guy who is building it. That doesn't seem like a very good reason to shut down government, or to object to the wall. It has the appearance of putting politics ahead of everything else.

If you are concerned that the wall will somehow be used for illegal purposes, the courts would put a quick end to that. So that really isn't a reason to object to it.


The justification for the wall is immoral and racist. The wall itself is unnecessary and expensive. Both of those things can be true.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:47 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

But people were calling the wall immoral before the shutdown, so it's not that. And I guess we could argue some people want it to keep certain races out, but really, it's designed to keep anyone from crossing that isn't supposed to be there. It's a border. If we had a huge influx of people illegally crossing from Canada into the US I'm sure many/most would want a wall up north (not gonna argue that some wouldn't care since Canadians are mostly white, yes racism exists and is out there)

tommy1808 wrote:
He knows that the wall will make border crossing more dangerous, getting more people killed in the process.


Which is unfortunate... but since securing the border makes it more dangerous to illegally enter, we should just have nothing there? This logic is lost on me. The boat ride from Africa to Europe is extremely dangerous, I don't see the Europeans building a bridge or providing free ferry services. Yes, they're upping patrols to try and intercept and save people, but similar allotment of resources can be dedicated to the more dangerous, more narrow holes in the US border if there was a wall

Again, I'm against the wall from a cost perspective, but if I could magically wave a wand and make it free, you bet I would. I sympathize for people crossing... I'm sure if I was poor and south of the US I might try and cross. But even I'd recognize that what I'm doing is illegal and that the US would have every right to block me or kick me out

I think a more effective solution would be some sort of economic aid down south and a more orderly legal immigration process (probably means more immigration from the south... Bring it on!) As long as we weed out criminals and people that don't want to work (which I'm sure is a very small minority) then come on in.

The lawlessness, however, is something I really dislike. There has to be more order on our border

tommy1808 wrote:
Its like building highways, in itself a perfectly legit and useful thing to do. But if you start building them with the intention to make troop movements for a war of aggression easier, they are still immoral.

That's one way of looking at it. But I can do two things at once... Be against Trump's reasons for the wall, be for it for other reasons, so being for it overall (but again, I'm against it for costs vs reward.) If I was for the wall I'd be for it and against many of his other immigration policies, simple as that
 
tommy1808
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:33 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
It is not the wall itself that makes it immoral and racist, it is the guy that wants to build it above anything else.

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that the wall is fine - you just don't like the guy who is building it.


You are not reading me correctly. A wall along the border is a waste of money. We can talk where what kind of physical barrier makes sense, but I have the feeling there is not so.much border left where it would help and a barrier doesn't exist already.

That doesn't seem like a very good reason to shut down government, or to object to the wall. It has the appearance of putting politics ahead of everything else.


There is no wall plan. A president shutting the government down over something that isn't his prerogative, congress decides what the government does and doesn't spend money on, is simply a walking, talking constitutional crisis.
Wanting a blanket check for disgressional wall building borders on insane.

If you are concerned that the wall will somehow be used for illegal purposes, the courts would put a quick end to that. So that really isn't a reason to object to it.


If Trump was concerned with border security, or the safety of the American people, he would ask for upgraded border checkpoints, he would have a detailed plan where to put barriers and what type would work best in which places, and he would have hard data to support that. There wouldn't be any of that blanket wall nonsense.
If the Republicans had a spine they would just overturn Trumps veto and get the government going again. That, or Trump backing off, is the only way you get a budget anyways.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:38 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
There is no wall plan.

Point of correction. There is a very clear plan that identifies exactly how much wall will be constructed and in exactly which sector the wall will be constructed. That plan has been referenced on these forums and can be found here: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/12/12/walls-work
 
tommy1808
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:53 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
There is no wall plan.

Point of correction. There is a very clear plan that identifies exactly how much wall will be constructed and in exactly which sector the wall will be constructed. That plan has been referenced on these forums and can be found here: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/12/12/walls-work


You are mistaken. That is what they already did, and what they want to do as an on going project. There is no plan for a wall along the whole US border. What you are trying to do is like pointing to a few highway projects and claiming that is the plan for a new nation wide highway system.

It also could not possibly refer to the Trump wall, that the shutdown is about, because they build wall for 5 million a mile and only plan 215 additional miles, that sums up to 1.075 billion. Trump wants 5 times that and there is no plan for 4 billion. There is no plan, thank you for providing a source that proofs it.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:21 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

But people were calling the wall immoral before the shutdown, so it's not that.


Before the shutdown or before Trump wanted a blanket wall for no good reason?

tommy1808 wrote:
He knows that the wall will make border crossing more dangerous, getting more people killed in the process.


Which is unfortunate... but since securing the border makes it more dangerous to illegally enter, we should just have nothing there? This logic is lost on me. The boat ride from Africa to Europe is extremely dangerous, I don't see the Europeans building a bridge or providing free ferry services.


We are not ankering razor wire a mile off our beaches either, which would be the equivalent. We don't make the crossing more dangerous.

Yes, they're upping patrols to try and intercept and save people, but similar allotment of resources can be dedicated to the more dangerous, more narrow holes in the US border if there was a wall


Well, once the government makes a statement along those lines and demands funding for that too, we can talk about the merits of that, but at the moment we just have a wall to talk about, in isolation.

Again, I'm against the wall from a cost perspective, but if I could magically wave a wand and make it free, you bet I would.


That would be quite some spell then, last time wall segments where build the RoI was pretty negative. Macroeconomically the wall will cost you even if Mexico pays for it.

I think a more effective solution would be some sort of economic aid down south and a more orderly legal immigration process (probably means more immigration from the south... Bring it on!) As long as we weed out criminals and people that don't want to work (which I'm sure is a very small minority) then come on in.


Hear, hear.... now if the government would propose that, he would not have trouble to get funding for physical barriers where they make sense ....

tommy1808 wrote:
Its like building highways, in itself a perfectly legit and useful thing to do. But if you start building them with the intention to make troop movements for a war of aggression easier, they are still immoral.

That's one way of looking at it. But I can do two things at once... Be against Trump's reasons for the wall, be for it for other reasons, so being for it overall (but again, I'm against it for costs vs reward.) If I was for the wall I'd be for it and against many of his other immigration policies, simple as that


All true, but i think intentions are important. Otherwise you get a class of political apologists that string together a common sense sounding reasoning for any devious plan. US politics has gotten so hostile because there is such a large chunk to apologetics afoot already, it's those that swallow each sides excuses for partisan reasons that stand in the way of solutions. As a nation state you are doomed if policy is driven by what an excuse can be made for instead of defining the problem, and finding solutions that work.
Bipartisanship used to be a US strong suit to the point where it confused me when I was younger. Your system is designed to fail without it. The founding father set up a nice prisoners dilemma for your political parties. Sucks if they forget that "cooperate" is the only winning move, if you don't want to be stuck on taking turns of getting the suckers pay.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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VTKillarney
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:26 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
There is no plan for a wall along the whole US border.

Correct. As of this point in time, Trump is only seeking funds to build a barrier at strategically identified locations. This is something that the Democrats have previously supported. He is not seeking funds to build a barrier along the entirety of the border.
 
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casinterest
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:31 pm

Where is DACA?
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
tommy1808
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:43 pm

VTKillarney wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
There is no plan for a wall along the whole US border.

Correct. As of this point in time, Trump is only seeking funds to build a barrier at strategically identified locations. This is something that the Democrats have previously supported. He is not seeking funds to build a barrier along the entirety of the border.


Please do provide a transcript or recording of Trump saying that.

It also does in no way adress what the 4 billion beyond that bit of plan are for. The DHS source and Trump talk about different things.

Trump is not demanding 1.1 billion for 215 miles of barrier at strategically identified locations that the DHS wants, he wants 5 billion for his border wall, whatever that is, since there is no plan.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:19 am

tommy1808 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

But people were calling the wall immoral before the shutdown, so it's not that.


Before the shutdown or before Trump wanted a blanket wall for no good reason?

Well, first off, I think the shut down is stupid, an embarrassment, and completely unacceptable. If I could, I'd lock all of Congress and the POTUS/VP in the Capitol and give them bread and water until they figured it all out.

But I have been hearing the "immoral" argument long before this shutdown.

I also don't think the timing is completely arbitrary... I may be giving him too much credit (and believe me, I'm not giving him much here, it's been 2 years with a solid GOP grasp on power) but I think it was the lines of "enough is enough, I should've played hard ball about this wall before, finally going to put my foot down" and the shutdown resulted. Not excusing the incompetence of it all or the shutdown itself, but it's not like he had 365 x 2 days to pull something like this, I think he just hit his boiling point and the next showdown happened to be this budget


tommy1808 wrote:
We are not ankering razor wire a mile off our beaches either, which would be the equivalent. We don't make the crossing more dangerous.

Yeah fair enough. Maybe we are losing sight of things using anologies. Maybe I'm not fully understanding you. There is a difference between a barrier that is mean spirited and intended to harm (wouldn't necessarily say barbed wire on top but if we land mined it, yeah) and it just being an effective barrier that diverts people to other points of entry (the open desert.)

I guess in this case I could say that Europe and it's border controls over land are immoral because they're effective and essentially forcing people to make treacherous journeys across the Mediterranean. I think that is a pretty fair comparison.

Note: I'm not saying you shouldn't have effective land border controls. You need them. There is always going to be a dangerous way, unfortunately

tommy1808 wrote:
All true, but i think intentions are important. Otherwise you get a class of political apologists that string together a common sense sounding reasoning for any devious plan.

Yeah I suppose that is true. It's hard to have debates these days because there are 2 monoliths in this country (as you allude to) but these topics require much more nuance. I have trouble finding a political home because while I'm against Trump for the myriad of obvious reasons, a lot of the stuff the Democrats say in response is totally inane. I mean there is a good chance our nominee against Trump in 2020 is for abolishing ICE... I mean yeah some of what they do is problematic, but come on. But I digess

Always a pleasure to chat back and forth... Having a civil conversation these days is sadly a rare treat :)

You make some very good points, challenging one's view keeps me honest and is why I come to these forums
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:30 am

So liberals, since you don't care about enforcing laws when it comes to immigration and border control, surely you won't mind if I pick out a few laws that I'd like to ignore? Oh, and since you don't care, stop making actual US citizens deal with CBP when they come home. It's sickening that you want to harass the people who legally belong here but you don't give a care in the world to the people who enter illegally.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 9728
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: GoFundMe for Trump’s Wall Fails

Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:13 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
So liberals, since you don't care about enforcing laws when it comes to immigration and border control, surely you won't mind if I pick out a few laws that I'd like to ignore?


You are aware that President Trump is the only obstacle in the way of border security right now, right?

VTKillarney wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
There is no plan for a wall along the whole US border.

Correct. As of this point in time, Trump is only seeking funds to build a barrier at strategically identified locations. This is something that the Democrats have previously supported. He is not seeking funds to build a barrier along the entirety of the border.


Thinking about it some more, your source proofs Trump is the only person in DC that doesn´t want border security.

Your own source say that the DHS plans to put 215 miles of steel fencing in strategic locations, your own source also tells us that a mile of such fence costs about 5 million. That sums up to a billion and change.
Add that bit of inflation since the 2017 datum, add the Trump steel tariffs and 1.3 Billion US$ seems to be a reasonable amount of money to do what the DHS wants to do.

The democrats are all in to pay for what the DHS wants, the Republicans wanted to found what DHS wants to do, at least until McConnell got new orders from the White House and went all "by your orders comrade", and hence Donald Trump is the ONLY person standing in the way of increasing border security as per DHS recommendations.

So again, your link can not possibly describe Trumps wall plan, as that would currently be in the process of becoming a reality if it wasn´t for Trump´s veto.

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Well, first off, I think the shut down is stupid, an embarrassment, and completely unacceptable. If I could, I'd lock all of Congress and the POTUS/VP in the Capitol and give them bread and water until they figured it all out.


much to drastic. Make Mitch McConnel go away for surgery or something and the budget will pass, they would also overrule the President if he sends the bill back. That is why Mitch McConnel doesn´t put it to a vote. "I won´t put a vote to the floor the President would not sign" is after all nothing else but saying "I know it would pass here no problem".

But I have been hearing the "immoral" argument long before this shutdown.


*shrugg* while i agree in so far that no person is illegal anywhere, unless they do something illegal where they are (sans laws you can only violate if you are illegal), i don´t see how a barrier at the border is in itself immoral. And that is not because of some naive assumption that all people are good. I had refugees, Muslims no less, threaten me to cut my throat in my sleep twice when camping, one time we had a riot police squad camping out across the street because they took it serious .... i just can read statistics.

I also don't think the timing is completely arbitrary... I may be giving him too much credit (and believe me, I'm not giving him much here, it's been 2 years with a solid GOP grasp on power) but I think it was the lines of "enough is enough, I should've played hard ball about this wall before, finally going to put my foot down" and the shutdown resulted. Not excusing the incompetence of it all or the shutdown itself, but it's not like he had 365 x 2 days to pull something like this, I think he just hit his boiling point and the next showdown happened to be this budget


I often do wonder if no person in his vicinity ever told him how to get laws passed, did he not listen or did he simply forget what he was told.
I mean, ok, he would never get a wall along all of the border.... but imagine he had, once in office, ask congress for money on a study how to best improve border security, who could say "no" to that, and then take that document full of hard data into the next budget discussion. ...... who can be against funding those recommendations and still plausibly be believed to support border security? No one.
If it wasn´t for Trumps incompetence in deal making*, physical barriers could be going up anywhere where it makes sense, and could be doing so for about a year.

The 215 miles the DHS currently thinks make sense could be going up right now if it wasn´t for Trumps Veto, and McConnels refusal to let his fellow Senators overrule the veto.

*The "Deal Making" Trump has done all his life is making a demand, and shop around long enough to find someone desperate enough, or overly optimistic about costs, to take the business at the price Trump wants to pay. That works fine if you have 1000s of contractors to chose from, but there is only on Congress, one China, one NATO, one EU .....

Yeah fair enough. Maybe we are losing sight of things using anologies. Maybe I'm not fully understanding you. There is a difference between a barrier that is mean spirited and intended to harm (wouldn't necessarily say barbed wire on top but if we land mined it, yeah)


I don´t really see how a wall, barbwired or not, in the middle of a f*cking desert is all that differnt from a minefield, without a system in place to actually make it attractive to go to

other points of entry (the open desert.)


I guess in this case I could say that Europe and it's border controls over land are immoral because they're effective and essentially forcing people to make treacherous journeys across the Mediterranean. I think that is a pretty fair comparison.


It might, if the data would support the effect you are looking for. Only it doesn´t:
Image

Whatever Frontex did, it actually got less people to try to make that dangerous crossing.....

Note: I'm not saying you shouldn't have effective land border controls. You need them. There is always going to be a dangerous way, unfortunately


True, but for me an effective land border is one where driving a truck full of drugs or weapons to cross that border is difficult, not one that increases the revenue for shovel and pickax sales people.
I am crossing a border about twice a week, Dutch grocery stores are so much better than ours when it comes to fresh stuff since Dutch people are actually willing to pay for good food, i would absolutely positively hate having to pass a checkpoint.....
When there still was a border between Germany and the Netherlands it was a hassle to cross, and smuggling stuff across the Moor was good business. ...... i don´t see the benefit for me, or other law abiding people in having one. Border guards and customs service now do spot checks all over the country and that would strike me as more effective as a make it or break it checkpoint.

Always a pleasure to chat back and forth... Having a civil conversation these days is sadly a rare treat :)


yup.. and i remember the times when trolling on the internet was the exception, not the rule. I wish we got the good´ol times back....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......

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